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(CNBC)   FAA Administrator reiterates the only thing that will ground the Boeing 737 Max in America will be gravity   (cnbc.com) divider line
    More: Followup, Addis Ababa, Lufthansa, Southwest Airlines, FAA Administrator Daniel Elwell, Airline, Monday, Ethiopia, Bole International Airport  
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1626 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Mar 2019 at 9:45 PM (13 days ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2019-03-12 07:11:35 PM  
It's very eye opening seeing how other countries are reactive vs how we're treating this situation. Andnby eye opening I mean horrifying.
 
2019-03-12 07:16:55 PM  
So, he's basically saying that they bought their tickets, let them crash?!?!?
Really?!
 
2019-03-12 07:21:19 PM  
Sorry, this is pilot error all the way. I've been an aircraft mechanic and inspector for 35 plus years. Their training sucks in third world countries. Even when Boeing comes in they don't get it. There were at least 3 circuit breakers they could have pulled to regain control. They panicked. Now Boeing gets to try to make it idiot proof. Not going to happen.
 
2019-03-12 07:26:26 PM  

holdmybones: It's very eye opening seeing how other countries are reactive vs how we're treating this situation. Andnby eye opening I mean horrifying.


There are corporate profits at stake. What other choice is there but to keep flying
 
2019-03-12 07:28:18 PM  

riffraff: Sorry, this is pilot error all the way. I've been an aircraft mechanic and inspector for 35 plus years. Their training sucks in third world countries. Even when Boeing comes in they don't get it. There were at least 3 circuit breakers they could have pulled to regain control. They panicked. Now Boeing gets to try to make it idiot proof. Not going to happen.


Sure. That's it. That's why the whole of Europe has grounded the plane. Because the training in every country in Europe sucks.
 
2019-03-12 07:29:26 PM  
If a domestic flight, say a Southwest from Chicago to Philadelphia goes down (and of course I hope to god this does NOT happen), then what?  This is a bad enough situation for Boeing as it is, not to mention for the families of those lost on those two flights.  No airline has this model exclusively, there's no reason any domestic carrier couldn't ground them for abundance of caution.  But hey, what do I know?
 
2019-03-12 07:30:50 PM  

nekom: If a domestic flight, say a Southwest from Chicago to Philadelphia goes down (and of course I hope to god this does NOT happen), then what?  This is a bad enough situation for Boeing as it is, not to mention for the families of those lost on those two flights.  No airline has this model exclusively, there's no reason any domestic carrier couldn't ground them for abundance of caution.  But hey, what do I know?


There's a formula for that

Fight Club - The Recall Coordinator's Formula
Youtube SiB8GVMNJkE
 
2019-03-12 07:32:04 PM  

riffraff: Sorry, this is pilot error all the way. I've been an aircraft mechanic and inspector for 35 plus years. Their training sucks in third world countries. Even when Boeing comes in they don't get it. There were at least 3 circuit breakers they could have pulled to regain control. They panicked. Now Boeing gets to try to make it idiot proof. Not going to happen.


If this were some outfit out of the DRC flying old Soviet-era crap I'd be inclined to agree, but this is Ethiopian.  It's a real airline, they fly to the states and the EU with no restrictions, and obviously bought a brand new modern plane from Boeing which crashed.  Best airline on the African continent by all accounts.  Something's wrong with the MAX.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong but that's my estimation.
 
2019-03-12 07:41:10 PM  

riffraff: Sorry, this is pilot error all the way. I've been an aircraft mechanic and inspector for 35 plus years. Their training sucks in third world countries. Even when Boeing comes in they don't get it. There were at least 3 circuit breakers they could have pulled to regain control. They panicked. Now Boeing gets to try to make it idiot proof. Not going to happen.


img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2019-03-12 07:41:44 PM  

Gubbo: riffraff: Sorry, this is pilot error all the way. I've been an aircraft mechanic and inspector for 35 plus years. Their training sucks in third world countries. Even when Boeing comes in they don't get it. There were at least 3 circuit breakers they could have pulled to regain control. They panicked. Now Boeing gets to try to make it idiot proof. Not going to happen.

Sure. That's it. That's why the whole of Europe has grounded the plane. Because the training in every country in Europe sucks.


Gubbo, I appreciate your comments here. Now when did a Western European 737 Max 8 crash? You're right that their training is much better. I'm not trashing the pilots. It's a completely different culture for the third world. When our pilots get out of the simulator, they are a sweaty shaken mess the first day. Obviously it is a minority of pilots that just want to get through the recurrent training while displaying their machismo, but that's all it takes to not know what to do.
 
2019-03-12 07:43:16 PM  

riffraff: Gubbo: riffraff: Sorry, this is pilot error all the way. I've been an aircraft mechanic and inspector for 35 plus years. Their training sucks in third world countries. Even when Boeing comes in they don't get it. There were at least 3 circuit breakers they could have pulled to regain control. They panicked. Now Boeing gets to try to make it idiot proof. Not going to happen.

Sure. That's it. That's why the whole of Europe has grounded the plane. Because the training in every country in Europe sucks.

Gubbo, I appreciate your comments here. Now when did a Western European 737 Max 8 crash? You're right that their training is much better. I'm not trashing the pilots. It's a completely different culture for the third world. When our pilots get out of the simulator, they are a sweaty shaken mess the first day. Obviously it is a minority of pilots that just want to get through the recurrent training while displaying their machismo, but that's all it takes to not know what to do.


I was very unaware that Boeing made one model for the Western World and a different one for the rest of the world.
 
2019-03-12 07:45:02 PM  

HawgWild: riffraff: Sorry, this is pilot error all the way. I've been an aircraft mechanic and inspector for 35 plus years. Their training sucks in third world countries. Even when Boeing comes in they don't get it. There were at least 3 circuit breakers they could have pulled to regain control. They panicked. Now Boeing gets to try to make it idiot proof. Not going to happen.

[img.fark.net image 400x342]


This does seem appropriate
 
2019-03-12 07:53:16 PM  

Gubbo: HawgWild: riffraff: Sorry, this is pilot error all the way. I've been an aircraft mechanic and inspector for 35 plus years. Their training sucks in third world countries. Even when Boeing comes in they don't get it. There were at least 3 circuit breakers they could have pulled to regain control. They panicked. Now Boeing gets to try to make it idiot proof. Not going to happen.

[img.fark.net image 400x342]

This does seem appropriate


Been in this business too long to mince words. Training in South America, Eastern Europe,Africa, and Indonesia doesn't come close to what we have here and Western Europe. I've hired, worked with and worked for ex-pats from all over the world, and have the greatest respect for them. It doesn't change the fact that some of these pilots just refuse to think that it will ever happen to them. The ones with the attitude that come here for training either get it, or biatch how unfair it was.
 
2019-03-12 07:58:25 PM  

riffraff: Gubbo: riffraff: Sorry, this is pilot error all the way. I've been an aircraft mechanic and inspector for 35 plus years. Their training sucks in third world countries. Even when Boeing comes in they don't get it. There were at least 3 circuit breakers they could have pulled to regain control. They panicked. Now Boeing gets to try to make it idiot proof. Not going to happen.

Sure. That's it. That's why the whole of Europe has grounded the plane. Because the training in every country in Europe sucks.

Gubbo, I appreciate your comments here. Now when did a Western European 737 Max 8 crash? You're right that their training is much better. I'm not trashing the pilots. It's a completely different culture for the third world. When our pilots get out of the simulator, they are a sweaty shaken mess the first day. Obviously it is a minority of pilots that just want to get through the recurrent training while displaying their machismo, but that's all it takes to not know what to do.


I don't disagree that these are both pilot error, but when you need to write special software to keep your modified airframe from nosing up unintentionally...and when you've sold 10K aircraft that ~didn't~ fly that way...maybe modifying it wasn't such a good idea.
 
2019-03-12 08:02:17 PM  

italie: riffraff: Gubbo: riffraff: Sorry, this is pilot error all the way. I've been an aircraft mechanic and inspector for 35 plus years. Their training sucks in third world countries. Even when Boeing comes in they don't get it. There were at least 3 circuit breakers they could have pulled to regain control. They panicked. Now Boeing gets to try to make it idiot proof. Not going to happen.

Sure. That's it. That's why the whole of Europe has grounded the plane. Because the training in every country in Europe sucks.

Gubbo, I appreciate your comments here. Now when did a Western European 737 Max 8 crash? You're right that their training is much better. I'm not trashing the pilots. It's a completely different culture for the third world. When our pilots get out of the simulator, they are a sweaty shaken mess the first day. Obviously it is a minority of pilots that just want to get through the recurrent training while displaying their machismo, but that's all it takes to not know what to do.

I don't disagree that these are both pilot error, but when you need to write special software to keep your modified airframe from nosing up unintentionally...and when you've sold 10K aircraft that ~didn't~ fly that way...maybe modifying it wasn't such a good idea.


If it was routine pilot error, they wouldn't be grounded across most of the world. And my understanding is that pilot error is everyone's favorite line in these cases because it means that there is no inherent defects and the planes can keep on flying.

But nobody outside of the US is acting that way.
 
2019-03-12 08:03:43 PM  

italie: riffraff: Gubbo: riffraff: Sorry, this is pilot error all the way. I've been an aircraft mechanic and inspector for 35 plus years. Their training sucks in third world countries. Even when Boeing comes in they don't get it. There were at least 3 circuit breakers they could have pulled to regain control. They panicked. Now Boeing gets to try to make it idiot proof. Not going to happen.

Sure. That's it. That's why the whole of Europe has grounded the plane. Because the training in every country in Europe sucks.

Gubbo, I appreciate your comments here. Now when did a Western European 737 Max 8 crash? You're right that their training is much better. I'm not trashing the pilots. It's a completely different culture for the third world. When our pilots get out of the simulator, they are a sweaty shaken mess the first day. Obviously it is a minority of pilots that just want to get through the recurrent training while displaying their machismo, but that's all it takes to not know what to do.

I don't disagree that these are both pilot error, but when you need to write special software to keep your modified airframe from nosing up unintentionally...and when you've sold 10K aircraft that ~didn't~ fly that way...maybe modifying it wasn't such a good idea.


Absolutely agree. There is a problem with this aircraft. It should have been handled in the cockpit and an instant report made to the local authorities for immediate action.
 
2019-03-12 08:12:49 PM  
Interesting Youtube channel.

Boeing 737MAX, LionAir Update!! - MCAS?
Youtube zfQW0upkVus


He's got a couple other videos on this issue too.
 
2019-03-12 08:14:21 PM  

Gubbo: italie: riffraff: Gubbo: riffraff: Sorry, this is pilot error all the way. I've been an aircraft mechanic and inspector for 35 plus years. Their training sucks in third world countries. Even when Boeing comes in they don't get it. There were at least 3 circuit breakers they could have pulled to regain control. They panicked. Now Boeing gets to try to make it idiot proof. Not going to happen.

Sure. That's it. That's why the whole of Europe has grounded the plane. Because the training in every country in Europe sucks.

Gubbo, I appreciate your comments here. Now when did a Western European 737 Max 8 crash? You're right that their training is much better. I'm not trashing the pilots. It's a completely different culture for the third world. When our pilots get out of the simulator, they are a sweaty shaken mess the first day. Obviously it is a minority of pilots that just want to get through the recurrent training while displaying their machismo, but that's all it takes to not know what to do.

I don't disagree that these are both pilot error, but when you need to write special software to keep your modified airframe from nosing up unintentionally...and when you've sold 10K aircraft that ~didn't~ fly that way...maybe modifying it wasn't such a good idea.

If it was routine pilot error, they wouldn't be grounded across most of the world. And my understanding is that pilot error is everyone's favorite line in these cases because it means that there is no inherent defects and the planes can keep on flying.

But nobody outside of the US is acting that way.


That's the thing though, it isn't "routine" pilot error. This is going to come down to pilots used to one thing, and not doing the other thing they were trained to do.

This is going to be a matter of the pilots crashing the plane, but due to a really stupid thing that Boeing asked them to do. It's equivalent to Ford saying "Here's the new F150. Be careful though, because if you are traveling at 47mph over certain bumps the truck will start to pull left severely, so you have 10 seconds to flip this switch here or it'll run into a wall."
 
2019-03-12 08:15:11 PM  
But nobody outside of the US is acting that way.

Safety is paramount in our business. I see your side of it. I guess what I'm saying is that with proper training, the pilots could have gotten the plane down safely. If I told you half of what I've been through on test flights, you'd never fly again. But it's so rare, that you have nothing to worry about. Kinda like working in a hot dog factory.
 
2019-03-12 08:16:08 PM  
More of same.

MAX Chaos - Live answers
Youtube XJwUk5HH4KI
 
2019-03-12 08:19:47 PM  

italie: That's the thing though, it isn't "routine" pilot error. This is going to come down to pilots used to one thing, and not doing the other thing they were trained to do.

This is going to be a matter of the pilots crashing the plane, but due to a really stupid thing that Boeing asked them to do. It's equivalent to Ford saying "Here's the new F150. Be careful though, because if you are traveling at 47mph over certain bumps the truck will start to pull left severely, so you have 10 seconds to flip this switch here or it'll run into a wall."


But with the added difficulty that your new truck was sold to you with the sales point that you wouldn't need to do any retraining because nothing had changed, so you wouldn't have any reason to know about the new system that can't handle bumps or the switch that you're required to push in case the new system that you didn't know about decides that today it wants to kill you.

I think a better analogy for a truck would be sometimes the brakes don't work, but if you just pop open the passenger side fuse box and take out a fuse it will all be fine.
 
2019-03-12 08:21:28 PM  

riffraff: But nobody outside of the US is acting that way.

Safety is paramount in our business. I see your side of it. I guess what I'm saying is that with proper training, the pilots could have gotten the plane down safely. If I told you half of what I've been through on test flights, you'd never fly again. But it's so rare, that you have nothing to worry about. Kinda like working in a hot dog factory.


Was this plane sold with the promise that retraining wasn't going to be required because nothing had changed? Were pilots even made aware of this new system.

Or was it just American pilots who were told what they needed to know to keep planes in the air.
 
2019-03-12 08:28:34 PM  

Gubbo: italie: That's the thing though, it isn't "routine" pilot error. This is going to come down to pilots used to one thing, and not doing the other thing they were trained to do.

This is going to be a matter of the pilots crashing the plane, but due to a really stupid thing that Boeing asked them to do. It's equivalent to Ford saying "Here's the new F150. Be careful though, because if you are traveling at 47mph over certain bumps the truck will start to pull left severely, so you have 10 seconds to flip this switch here or it'll run into a wall."

But with the added difficulty that your new truck was sold to you with the sales point that you wouldn't need to do any retraining because nothing had changed, so you wouldn't have any reason to know about the new system that can't handle bumps or the switch that you're required to push in case the new system that you didn't know about decides that today it wants to kill you.

I think a better analogy for a truck would be sometimes the brakes don't work, but if you just pop open the passenger side fuse box and take out a fuse it will all be fine.


I'll concede your point on notification...for the Lion Air crash. After that, the FAA put out a mandate a month later informing pilots of what to do. Dick move, but they new at that time. I have no clue if the EASA or other authorities did the same, and maybe that plays into it.

(The brakes analogy was hot garbage though...)
 
2019-03-12 08:30:32 PM  

italie: Gubbo: italie: That's the thing though, it isn't "routine" pilot error. This is going to come down to pilots used to one thing, and not doing the other thing they were trained to do.

This is going to be a matter of the pilots crashing the plane, but due to a really stupid thing that Boeing asked them to do. It's equivalent to Ford saying "Here's the new F150. Be careful though, because if you are traveling at 47mph over certain bumps the truck will start to pull left severely, so you have 10 seconds to flip this switch here or it'll run into a wall."

But with the added difficulty that your new truck was sold to you with the sales point that you wouldn't need to do any retraining because nothing had changed, so you wouldn't have any reason to know about the new system that can't handle bumps or the switch that you're required to push in case the new system that you didn't know about decides that today it wants to kill you.

I think a better analogy for a truck would be sometimes the brakes don't work, but if you just pop open the passenger side fuse box and take out a fuse it will all be fine.

I'll concede your point on notification...for the Lion Air crash. After that, the FAA put out a mandate a month later informing pilots of what to do. Dick move, but they new at that time. I have no clue if the EASA or other authorities did the same, and maybe that plays into it.

(The brakes analogy was hot garbage though...)


Yeah I know. I couldn't think of a good car example
 
2019-03-12 08:33:06 PM  

Gubbo: riffraff: But nobody outside of the US is acting that way.

Safety is paramount in our business. I see your side of it. I guess what I'm saying is that with proper training, the pilots could have gotten the plane down safely. If I told you half of what I've been through on test flights, you'd never fly again. But it's so rare, that you have nothing to worry about. Kinda like working in a hot dog factory.

Was this plane sold with the promise that retraining wasn't going to be required because nothing had changed? Were pilots even made aware of this new system.

Or was it just American pilots who were told what they needed to know to keep planes in the air.


Every time a new model comes out, you are required to do "differences training" at the very least. If you're already rated for the aircraft, that is the minimum  requirement. It's an arduous course, as you already have preset ways of reacting to emergencies. You don't just jump in and take off. I have no idea what the respective governments require. But that's what we do.
 
2019-03-12 08:35:58 PM  

Gubbo: italie: Gubbo: italie: That's the thing though, it isn't "routine" pilot error. This is going to come down to pilots used to one thing, and not doing the other thing they were trained to do.

This is going to be a matter of the pilots crashing the plane, but due to a really stupid thing that Boeing asked them to do. It's equivalent to Ford saying "Here's the new F150. Be careful though, because if you are traveling at 47mph over certain bumps the truck will start to pull left severely, so you have 10 seconds to flip this switch here or it'll run into a wall."

But with the added difficulty that your new truck was sold to you with the sales point that you wouldn't need to do any retraining because nothing had changed, so you wouldn't have any reason to know about the new system that can't handle bumps or the switch that you're required to push in case the new system that you didn't know about decides that today it wants to kill you.

I think a better analogy for a truck would be sometimes the brakes don't work, but if you just pop open the passenger side fuse box and take out a fuse it will all be fine.

I'll concede your point on notification...for the Lion Air crash. After that, the FAA put out a mandate a month later informing pilots of what to do. Dick move, but they new at that time. I have no clue if the EASA or other authorities did the same, and maybe that plays into it.

(The brakes analogy was hot garbage though...)

Yeah I know. I couldn't think of a good car example


Points for effort. If we were at the bar I'd buy next round.
 
2019-03-12 08:36:31 PM  

riffraff: But nobody outside of the US is acting that way.

Safety is paramount in our business. I see your side of it. I guess what I'm saying is that with proper training, the pilots could have gotten the plane down safely. If I told you half of what I've been through on test flights, you'd never fly again. But it's so rare, that you have nothing to worry about. Kinda like working in a hot dog factory.


My Uncle was a pilot for PanAm and in the early 90's the SO and I visited him and he took us on a simulator (he was 'retired' and training other pilots in Miami then)....there was one part of the 'flight' where you fly into Miami and he flicks a switch. "That's to shut off the PULL UP ALARMS....it triggers on that hotel over there"
This was all in the simulator and it was pretty impressive the level of detail at that time and that computer power had (evans and sutherland computer powering the sim)
 
2019-03-12 08:39:16 PM  

italie: Gubbo: italie: Gubbo: italie: That's the thing though, it isn't "routine" pilot error. This is going to come down to pilots used to one thing, and not doing the other thing they were trained to do.

This is going to be a matter of the pilots crashing the plane, but due to a really stupid thing that Boeing asked them to do. It's equivalent to Ford saying "Here's the new F150. Be careful though, because if you are traveling at 47mph over certain bumps the truck will start to pull left severely, so you have 10 seconds to flip this switch here or it'll run into a wall."

But with the added difficulty that your new truck was sold to you with the sales point that you wouldn't need to do any retraining because nothing had changed, so you wouldn't have any reason to know about the new system that can't handle bumps or the switch that you're required to push in case the new system that you didn't know about decides that today it wants to kill you.

I think a better analogy for a truck would be sometimes the brakes don't work, but if you just pop open the passenger side fuse box and take out a fuse it will all be fine.

I'll concede your point on notification...for the Lion Air crash. After that, the FAA put out a mandate a month later informing pilots of what to do. Dick move, but they new at that time. I have no clue if the EASA or other authorities did the same, and maybe that plays into it.

(The brakes analogy was hot garbage though...)

Yeah I know. I couldn't think of a good car example

Points for effort. If we were at the bar I'd buy next round.


I'm in!
 
2019-03-12 08:44:59 PM  

optikeye: riffraff: But nobody outside of the US is acting that way.

Safety is paramount in our business. I see your side of it. I guess what I'm saying is that with proper training, the pilots could have gotten the plane down safely. If I told you half of what I've been through on test flights, you'd never fly again. But it's so rare, that you have nothing to worry about. Kinda like working in a hot dog factory.

My Uncle was a pilot for PanAm and in the early 90's the SO and I visited him and he took us on a simulator (he was 'retired' and training other pilots in Miami then)....there was one part of the 'flight' where you fly into Miami and he flicks a switch. "That's to shut off the PULL UP ALARMS....it triggers on that hotel over there"
This was all in the simulator and it was pretty impressive the level of detail at that time and that computer power had (evans and sutherland computer powering the sim)


I only flew one simulator. An A-10 in S. Korea. I performed a perfect landing at almost 300 knots. Fun seeing me going off the end of the runway and into the woods.
 
2019-03-12 08:59:55 PM  

riffraff: italie: riffraff: Gubbo: riffraff: Sorry, this is pilot error all the way. I've been an aircraft mechanic and inspector for 35 plus years. Their training sucks in third world countries. Even when Boeing comes in they don't get it. There were at least 3 circuit breakers they could have pulled to regain control. They panicked. Now Boeing gets to try to make it idiot proof. Not going to happen.

Sure. That's it. That's why the whole of Europe has grounded the plane. Because the training in every country in Europe sucks.

Gubbo, I appreciate your comments here. Now when did a Western European 737 Max 8 crash? You're right that their training is much better. I'm not trashing the pilots. It's a completely different culture for the third world. When our pilots get out of the simulator, they are a sweaty shaken mess the first day. Obviously it is a minority of pilots that just want to get through the recurrent training while displaying their machismo, but that's all it takes to not know what to do.

I don't disagree that these are both pilot error, but when you need to write special software to keep your modified airframe from nosing up unintentionally...and when you've sold 10K aircraft that ~didn't~ fly that way...maybe modifying it wasn't such a good idea.

Absolutely agree. There is a problem with this aircraft. It should have been handled in the cockpit and an instant report made to the local authorities for immediate action.


Local authorities can be less helpful than you'd think. Yes, even the American ones

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/0​3​/12/pilots-boeing-737-1266090
 
2019-03-12 09:05:43 PM  

riffraff: italie: Gubbo: italie: Gubbo: italie: That's the thing though, it isn't "routine" pilot error. This is going to come down to pilots used to one thing, and not doing the other thing they were trained to do.

This is going to be a matter of the pilots crashing the plane, but due to a really stupid thing that Boeing asked them to do. It's equivalent to Ford saying "Here's the new F150. Be careful though, because if you are traveling at 47mph over certain bumps the truck will start to pull left severely, so you have 10 seconds to flip this switch here or it'll run into a wall."

But with the added difficulty that your new truck was sold to you with the sales point that you wouldn't need to do any retraining because nothing had changed, so you wouldn't have any reason to know about the new system that can't handle bumps or the switch that you're required to push in case the new system that you didn't know about decides that today it wants to kill you.

I think a better analogy for a truck would be sometimes the brakes don't work, but if you just pop open the passenger side fuse box and take out a fuse it will all be fine.

I'll concede your point on notification...for the Lion Air crash. After that, the FAA put out a mandate a month later informing pilots of what to do. Dick move, but they new at that time. I have no clue if the EASA or other authorities did the same, and maybe that plays into it.

(The brakes analogy was hot garbage though...)

Yeah I know. I couldn't think of a good car example

Points for effort. If we were at the bar I'd buy next round.

I'm in!


im4.ezgif.comView Full Size
 
2019-03-12 09:08:09 PM  
Dammit, now I want an orange whip.
G'night people.
 
2019-03-12 09:13:37 PM  

Gubbo: holdmybones: It's very eye opening seeing how other countries are reactive vs how we're treating this situation. Andnby eye opening I mean horrifying.

There are corporate profits at stake. What other choice is there but to keep flying


From the 'always a tweet' file...
img.fark.netView Full Size


And I'm sure it's purely a coincidence that the top 3 slots at today's FAA are "Acting" officials.
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2019-03-12 09:27:17 PM  

riffraff: Sorry, this is pilot error all the way. I've been an aircraft mechanic and inspector for 35 plus years. Their training sucks in third world countries. Even when Boeing comes in they don't get it. There were at least 3 circuit breakers they could have pulled to regain control. They panicked. Now Boeing gets to try to make it idiot proof. Not going to happen.


Sure. That's it.

Even tho Boeing actually decided not to provide any new training for the Max to 3rd World carriers - because they wanted to make clear there was no new cost or downtime.

I know, you're on the accident investigation team tho so it's all about the shiatty 3rd world pilots. Yep.
 
2019-03-12 09:30:59 PM  

riffraff: But nobody outside of the US is acting that way.

Safety is paramount in our business. I see your side of it. I guess what I'm saying is that with proper training, the pilots could have gotten the plane down safely. If I told you half of what I've been through on test flights, you'd never fly again. But it's so rare, that you have nothing to worry about. Kinda like working in a hot dog factory.


How about reading where pilots are saying Boeing did not provide info on this system to them until AFTER Lion?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel​/​news/2018/11/14/pilots-says-boeing-did​nt-disclose-new-control-feature-737-ma​x/2001713002/
 
2019-03-12 09:34:07 PM  

wejash: riffraff: But nobody outside of the US is acting that way.

Safety is paramount in our business. I see your side of it. I guess what I'm saying is that with proper training, the pilots could have gotten the plane down safely. If I told you half of what I've been through on test flights, you'd never fly again. But it's so rare, that you have nothing to worry about. Kinda like working in a hot dog factory.

How about reading where pilots are saying Boeing did not provide info on this system to them until AFTER Lion?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/​news/2018/11/14/pilots-says-boeing-did​nt-disclose-new-control-feature-737-ma​x/2001713002/


No he was very clear. The problem is obviously Africa = Bad

/with a bonus African pilots = lazy
 
2019-03-12 09:36:15 PM  
You just have to look at them to see they aren't bright. Obviously born with the wrong albedo.
 
2019-03-12 09:44:13 PM  

Gubbo: wejash: riffraff: But nobody outside of the US is acting that way.

Safety is paramount in our business. I see your side of it. I guess what I'm saying is that with proper training, the pilots could have gotten the plane down safely. If I told you half of what I've been through on test flights, you'd never fly again. But it's so rare, that you have nothing to worry about. Kinda like working in a hot dog factory.

How about reading where pilots are saying Boeing did not provide info on this system to them until AFTER Lion?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/​news/2018/11/14/pilots-says-boeing-did​nt-disclose-new-control-feature-737-ma​x/2001713002/

No he was very clear. The problem is obviously Africa = Bad

/with a bonus African pilots = lazy


It's particularly galling because Ethiopian has a long history of being an excellent airline that is really competitive in training.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/12/bu​s​iness/ethiopian-airline-crash-school.h​tml

And this is the airline that was considered top flight EVEN during the era of the Derg communist dictatorship, they kept flying everywhere in Africa and were everyone's preferred carrier even then.

It's like suddenly insulting the IDF's pilots because they don't get the good USAF training or experience.
 
2019-03-12 09:48:39 PM  

NewportBarGuy: So, he's basically saying that they bought their tickets, let them crash?!?!?
Really?!


lol, I forget which channel has been playing that movie on regular rotation this month.
 
2019-03-12 09:50:32 PM  

Gubbo: That's why the whole of Europe has grounded the plane.


Nationalism is at play. If the flaw were on an Airbus the EU would have full confidence in the planes not allowed to fly anywhere else in the world.
 
2019-03-12 09:52:00 PM  
I wonder how Secretary of Defense Boeing feels about this.
 
2019-03-12 09:53:22 PM  
I know nothing about planes. Especially this plane in particular. Neither do I know anything about airlines, pilots, pilot or mechanic training, aerodynamics, physics in general, gravity, birds, clouds, or honey roasted peanuts. But I have opinions out the wazoo.
 
2019-03-12 09:54:10 PM  

Gubbo: italie: That's the thing though, it isn't "routine" pilot error. This is going to come down to pilots used to one thing, and not doing the other thing they were trained to do.

This is going to be a matter of the pilots crashing the plane, but due to a really stupid thing that Boeing asked them to do. It's equivalent to Ford saying "Here's the new F150. Be careful though, because if you are traveling at 47mph over certain bumps the truck will start to pull left severely, so you have 10 seconds to flip this switch here or it'll run into a wall."

But with the added difficulty that your new truck was sold to you with the sales point that you wouldn't need to do any retraining because nothing had changed, so you wouldn't have any reason to know about the new system that can't handle bumps or the switch that you're required to push in case the new system that you didn't know about decides that today it wants to kill you.

I think a better analogy for a truck would be sometimes the brakes don't work, but if you just pop open the passenger side fuse box and take out a fuse it will all be fine.


If the brakes don't stop ya, something will.  Relax!
 
2019-03-12 09:55:07 PM  

riffraff: Sorry, this is pilot error all the way. I've been an aircraft mechanic and inspector for 35 plus years. Their training sucks in third world countries. Even when Boeing comes in they don't get it. There were at least 3 circuit breakers they could have pulled to regain control. They panicked. Now Boeing gets to try to make it idiot proof. Not going to happen.


This is like a someone who is a professional football deflater trying to say the QB isn't skilled enough to throw it
 
2019-03-12 09:55:27 PM  

Gubbo: holdmybones: It's very eye opening seeing how other countries are reactive vs how we're treating this situation. Andnby eye opening I mean horrifying.

There are corporate profits at stake. What other choice is there but to keep flying


I figure this is why Canada hasn't grounded them, looks like two thirds to half the fleet up here is these aircraft, so they're going to keep them flying.
 
2019-03-12 09:56:11 PM  

Boo_Guy: Gubbo: holdmybones: It's very eye opening seeing how other countries are reactive vs how we're treating this situation. Andnby eye opening I mean horrifying.

There are corporate profits at stake. What other choice is there but to keep flying

I figure this is why Canada hasn't grounded them, looks like two thirds to half the fleet up here is these aircraft, so they're going to keep them flying.


Err one third I mean.
 
2019-03-12 09:58:32 PM  

Gubbo: Was this plane sold with the promise that retraining wasn't going to be required because nothing had changed? Were pilots even made aware of this new system.


The initial flight manual said nothing about the MCAS. After the Lion Air crash, Boeing released some updated procedures for how to ensure pilots can regain manual control. AA and SWA pilots who had gone through differential training to upgrade from NG to MAX aircraft collectively said "MCAS what now?!"

It wasn't mentioned at all to anyone.
 
2019-03-12 09:58:44 PM  

nekom: If this were some outfit out of the DRC flying old Soviet-era crap I'd be inclined to agree, but this is Ethiopian. It's a real airline, they fly to the states and the EU with no restrictions


Ethiopian has nice routes and all, but the in-flight meals are pretty sparse...
 
2019-03-12 10:01:20 PM  

Ivo Shandor: From the 'always a tweet' file...
[img.fark.net image 480x197]

And I'm sure it's purely a coincidence that the top 3 slots at today's FAA are "Acting" officials.
[img.fark.net image 599x333]


That idiot can't help but congratulate himself for stuff that happens. Yeah. 2017 was a good year for commercial aviation safety and if he contributed somehow  to achieve that, people will naturally recognize it and let him know, but no, he has to inject himself and say "See? It was all me!!". He just crave the praise.
 
2019-03-12 10:03:07 PM  
Look, at any given time on the planet earth there are 60,000 planes in the air. Two planes have gone down in the world in a period of SIX MONTHS. Which is more likely, that uniform manufacturing has gone faulty, or, that given the number of flights, the possibiility of pilot error reveals itself twice out of the hudreds of thousands of flights that have taken place.  This is a classic example of anxiety and paranoia's triumph over basic statistical math.
 
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