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(Gizmodo)   Boeing promises release a software patch for 737 Max planes in April so until then, good luck flyers, we're all counting on you   (gizmodo.com) divider line
    More: Scary, Boeing 737, United Airlines, Southwest Airlines, Federal Aviation Administration, Air safety, Boeing's website, October crash of Lion Air Flight, Boeing 707  
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1998 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Mar 2019 at 11:15 AM (10 days ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2019-03-12 09:56:43 AM  
I have a flight on a Southwest Max on April 5.  Get a move on, Boeing.
 
2019-03-12 10:23:18 AM  
The FAA's sole reason for not grounding this plane immediately, something they have full authority to do, is that they only recently declared it completely airworthy and do not want to look as though they erred in that declaration. Which is to say that I hope when all this is settled at least several people over there lose their farking jobs. Asshats.
 
2019-03-12 10:35:37 AM  
Next month and the planes stay in the air until then, what the fark?  Are they running Windows ME or some shiat?
 
2019-03-12 10:48:40 AM  

Mad Scientist: I have a flight on a Southwest Max on April 5.  Get a move on, Boeing.


Should be fine as long as you get a rookie pilot.
 
2019-03-12 10:54:56 AM  
Also, it's down to just about North America that hasn't grounded it at this point pending investigation.. So flying to just about anywhere else won't be on one.
 
2019-03-12 10:59:41 AM  

Mad Scientist: I have a flight on a Southwest Max on April 5.  Get a move on, Boeing.


After the Indonesian crash, Southwest activated AOA indicators on their main displays for 737 Maxes, and already had heads up displays on most of their 737s with AOA info already shown. I think the 737s that crashed saved money by skipping HUDs, and didn't activate the indicators on their heads down displays. 737 Maxes are still designed to try and crash if a sensor fails, but with the AOA displays, Southwest's pilots are likelier to understand the situation more quickly during failures, allowing them to avoid crashing.
 
2019-03-12 11:16:27 AM  
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2019-03-12 11:16:44 AM  
"From my perspective as a Captain who flies the MAX, I observe that the engineers sitting in their chairs on the ground have done a marvelous job overwhelming 189 innocents with the engineers' arrogance and stupidity. If you've introduced a new system designed to exert authority over a primary flight control, well, that's a nice thing to know."

Based on that alone, and that I value my life, pass.
 
2019-03-12 11:18:04 AM  

T Baggins: Mad Scientist: I have a flight on a Southwest Max on April 5.  Get a move on, Boeing.

After the Indonesian crash, Southwest activated AOA indicators on their main displays for 737 Maxes, and already had heads up displays on most of their 737s with AOA info already shown. I think the 737s that crashed saved money by skipping HUDs, and didn't activate the indicators on their heads down displays. 737 Maxes are still designed to try and crash if a sensor fails, but with the AOA displays, Southwest's pilots are likelier to understand the situation more quickly during failures, allowing them to avoid crashing.


I don't understand why an airline would elect not to active the AoA dial.
 
2019-03-12 11:19:32 AM  
Boeing:  Everything's fine aside from minor documentation issues with our avionics software upgrade. Passengers are warned not to schedule flights during leap years or days that end with 'Y' however...
 
2019-03-12 11:20:22 AM  
That's why I stick with Delta for short-haul.  You can't go wrong with the DC-9.  That baby is proven.
 
2019-03-12 11:20:22 AM  
No kick - daughter flying today.
 
2019-03-12 11:23:34 AM  

Charlie Freak: T Baggins: Mad Scientist: I have a flight on a Southwest Max on April 5.  Get a move on, Boeing.

After the Indonesian crash, Southwest activated AOA indicators on their main displays for 737 Maxes, and already had heads up displays on most of their 737s with AOA info already shown. I think the 737s that crashed saved money by skipping HUDs, and didn't activate the indicators on their heads down displays. 737 Maxes are still designed to try and crash if a sensor fails, but with the AOA displays, Southwest's pilots are likelier to understand the situation more quickly during failures, allowing them to avoid crashing.

I don't understand why an airline would elect not to active the AoA dial.


The Lion Air crash was because of a faulty AOA sensor, at least on the mechanical side of it. Having the display activated likely wouldn't have changed anything.
 
2019-03-12 11:26:49 AM  
The simple solution would be to turn off the sytem. Obviously it's not that simple or it would have happened already. Everything is integrated with everything else now so a software patch is probably the only way.

So why so long? I'm guessing they have to write it, lab test it, then deploy it and test it on a Boeing plane with Boeing test pilots. Then they submit that to the FAA and request approval to update the software fleet wide because it will somehow affects flght characteristics. How long the FAA will fart around with it is anybody's guess.

/the preceding is just a guess.
 
2019-03-12 11:27:18 AM  
In line 6,348 replace the statement

if (rand()<0.01) then fieryCrash = TRUE;

with

fieryCrash = FALSE;

We apologize for the inconvenience.
 
2019-03-12 11:27:39 AM  
*checks tickets for flight in July*

Airbus A340

*wipes brow*
 
2019-03-12 11:28:23 AM  
Geebus Chriminy.
 
2019-03-12 11:28:51 AM  

Rapmaster2000: That's why I stick with Delta for short-haul.  You can't go wrong with the DC-9.  That baby is proven.


DC9s have the compass (with backwards writing) on the bulkhead behind the pilots, and a strategically placed mirror on the control panel for viewing the compass.

Designed in an era of and by people who 'figure shiat out'.

Gotta admire that.

Of course, the whole jackscrew issue...
 
2019-03-12 11:28:59 AM  

Rapmaster2000: That's why I stick with Delta for short-haul.  You can't go wrong with the DC-9.  That baby is proven.


I assume you were going for snark. Delta retired its last DC-9 a couple of years ago.

But they got plenty of rattle-trap MD-80s if you're yearning for that authentic 1982 cutting edge technology experience.
 
2019-03-12 11:30:27 AM  
Wow, a software patch coming out next month?   That's suspiciously quick for a possible problem (not yet proven) that occurred only a few months ago.  I have a feeling that Boeing has know about this for a bit longer.
 
2019-03-12 11:33:03 AM  

Mad Scientist: I have a flight on a Southwest Max on April 5.  Get a move on, Boeing.


You should probably be "out sick" that day.
 
2019-03-12 11:33:03 AM  
T Baggins: 737 Maxes are still designed to try and crash if a sensor fails,

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2019-03-12 11:33:41 AM  

AugieDoggyDaddy: Wow, a software patch coming out next month?   That's suspiciously quick for a possible problem (not yet proven) that occurred only a few months ago.  I have a feeling that Boeing has know about this for a bit longer.


Or it's a rushed, poorly tested software patch that puts thousands of lives at risk every day - and was promised purely to end a stock sell-off
 
2019-03-12 11:33:44 AM  

iron_city_ap: Charlie Freak: T Baggins: Mad Scientist: I have a flight on a Southwest Max on April 5.  Get a move on, Boeing.

After the Indonesian crash, Southwest activated AOA indicators on their main displays for 737 Maxes, and already had heads up displays on most of their 737s with AOA info already shown. I think the 737s that crashed saved money by skipping HUDs, and didn't activate the indicators on their heads down displays. 737 Maxes are still designed to try and crash if a sensor fails, but with the AOA displays, Southwest's pilots are likelier to understand the situation more quickly during failures, allowing them to avoid crashing.

I don't understand why an airline would elect not to active the AoA dial.

The Lion Air crash was because of a faulty AOA sensor, at least on the mechanical side of it. Having the display activated likely wouldn't have changed anything.


Yeah, but you know as well as I that any gauge can receive and/or display faulty data. That'd be like removing the airspeed indicator because a pitot tube got plugged once.

Further, you can often troubleshoot and isolate the faulty AoA data by comparing the flightpath vector (if enabled) and the deck angle. That way you'd at least know you're fighting a system that think it's tits-up.
 
2019-03-12 11:33:52 AM  

WalkingCarpet: Next month and the planes stay in the air until then, what the fark?  Are they running Windows ME or some shiat?


Windows 10, but last Tuesday's update had a slight... glitch.
 
2019-03-12 11:36:22 AM  

Schlubbe: DC9s have the compass (with backwards writing) on the bulkhead behind the pilots, and a strategically placed mirror on the control panel for viewing the compass.

Designed in an era of and by people who 'figure shiat out'.


I bet there was a pretty lengthy meeting about that, though.

"We'll put the compass here, behind the pilots."
"But then they can't see it."
"No, problem, we'll put a mirror here so they can see it."
"But the writing will be all backwards!"
"No problem, we'll paint the letters backwards."
"Yeah, but the needle is still being reflected in a mirror, so everything will be backwards. We'll have to switch E and W."
"What about N and S?"
"No, mirrors only mix make left-right backward; not up-down. We can leave them the same."
"Wait, no, the compass isn't mounted on the wall, it's still horizontal."
"Oh, OK, then we'll just switch all the letters. No wait, better yet, we'll put the needle on backwards."
"Brilliant."
[A few plane crashes later...]
"OK, let's revisit this compass issue..."
 
2019-03-12 11:37:36 AM  

Znuh: "From my perspective as a Captain who flies the MAX, I observe that the engineers sitting in their chairs on the ground have done a marvelous job overwhelming 189 innocents with the engineers' arrogance and stupidity. If you've introduced a new system designed to exert authority over a primary flight control, well, that's a nice thing to know."

Based on that alone, and that I value my life, pass.


The engineers wouldn't have made the decision to not inform the pilots. That would have been management.
 
2019-03-12 11:37:48 AM  

Mad Scientist: I have a flight on a Southwest Max on April 5.  Get a move on, Boeing.


March 30 for me, but I don't think mine is on a Max. My ticket says 737-700 WI. I'm not sure what that means, though.
 
2019-03-12 11:39:07 AM  
That plane was "designed" by engineers and budget analysts, with no consideration for actually FLYING the damn thing.

Took a normal 737 with 40 years of track record, and then put new engines and materials into it to lighten weight and make it more efficient......but lighter engines made the balance wrong so they had to MOVE THE WING LOCATION which screwed the flight characteristics all to hell and instead of having a single well-designed plane, they were forced to monkey around with the flight controls to put in an automatic counter to a tendency to climb automatically (which would stall the plane).  So you have a computer basically constantly trying to dive the plane to counter the bad flight design that makes it climb, and to an untrained or unaware pilot it seems like it's flying steady when really it's a razor's edge of pulling and pushing in two opposite directions - if anything tips that balance, all of a  sudden the pilot has to deal with forces that are way out of whack with what he/she should be experiencing, systems taht are working against manual control, and it can lead very easily to catastrophic consequences.  This farking shiatshow should have never left the ground.  It's insane that the FAA is allowing it to stay in the air just because they don't want to hurt Boeing's bottom line.
 
2019-03-12 11:40:12 AM  
We're all beta testers now.
 
2019-03-12 11:40:43 AM  
Did they try re-booting or did they get the blue screen of death?
 
2019-03-12 11:40:57 AM  
Even EA can get a patch out quicker.

/sometimes
 
2019-03-12 11:41:14 AM  

cefm: That plane was "designed" by engineers and budget analysts, with no consideration for actually FLYING the damn thing.

Took a normal 737 with 40 years of track record, and then put new engines and materials into it to lighten weight and make it more efficient......but lighter engines made the balance wrong so they had to MOVE THE WING LOCATION which screwed the flight characteristics all to hell and instead of having a single well-designed plane, they were forced to monkey around with the flight controls to put in an automatic counter to a tendency to climb automatically (which would stall the plane).  So you have a computer basically constantly trying to dive the plane to counter the bad flight design that makes it climb, and to an untrained or unaware pilot it seems like it's flying steady when really it's a razor's edge of pulling and pushing in two opposite directions - if anything tips that balance, all of a  sudden the pilot has to deal with forces that are way out of whack with what he/she should be experiencing, systems taht are working against manual control, and it can lead very easily to catastrophic consequences.  This farking shiatshow should have never left the ground.  It's insane that the FAA is allowing it to stay in the air just because they don't want to hurt Boeing's bottom line.


img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2019-03-12 11:41:30 AM  

T Baggins: Mad Scientist: I have a flight on a Southwest Max on April 5.  Get a move on, Boeing.

After the Indonesian crash, Southwest activated AOA indicators on their main displays for 737 Maxes, and already had heads up displays on most of their 737s with AOA info already shown. I think the 737s that crashed saved money by skipping HUDs, and didn't activate the indicators on their heads down displays. 737 Maxes are still designed to try and crash if a sensor fails, but with the AOA displays, Southwest's pilots are likelier to understand the situation more quickly during failures, allowing them to avoid crashing.


And that's the terrifying part
 
2019-03-12 11:44:54 AM  

Charlie Freak: iron_city_ap: Charlie Freak: T Baggins: Mad Scientist: I have a flight on a Southwest Max on April 5.  Get a move on, Boeing.

After the Indonesian crash, Southwest activated AOA indicators on their main displays for 737 Maxes, and already had heads up displays on most of their 737s with AOA info already shown. I think the 737s that crashed saved money by skipping HUDs, and didn't activate the indicators on their heads down displays. 737 Maxes are still designed to try and crash if a sensor fails, but with the AOA displays, Southwest's pilots are likelier to understand the situation more quickly during failures, allowing them to avoid crashing.

I don't understand why an airline would elect not to active the AoA dial.

The Lion Air crash was because of a faulty AOA sensor, at least on the mechanical side of it. Having the display activated likely wouldn't have changed anything.

Yeah, but you know as well as I that any gauge can receive and/or display faulty data. That'd be like removing the airspeed indicator because a pitot tube got plugged once.

Further, you can often troubleshoot and isolate the faulty AoA data by comparing the flightpath vector (if enabled) and the deck angle. That way you'd at least know you're fighting a system that think it's tits-up.


How about Boeing adds that logic to their software so the pilot doesn't have to figure it out. Hell, a webcam looking at a bubble level would probably work.
 
2019-03-12 11:45:07 AM  

Pocket Ninja: The FAA's sole reason for not grounding this plane immediately, something they have full authority to do, is that they only recently declared it completely airworthy and do not want to look as though they erred in that declaration. Which is to say that I hope when all this is settled at least several people over there lose their farking jobs. Asshats.


Honest question: How was anyone certifying this plane to know MCAS might be a problem? If it's a matter of incomplete documentation submitted by Boeing (and they sure didn't tell pilots being trained), how is the FAA to know?
 
2019-03-12 11:46:09 AM  

cefm: That plane was "designed" by engineers and budget analysts, with no consideration for actually FLYING the damn thing.

Took a normal 737 with 40 years of track record, and then put new engines and materials into it to lighten weight and make it more efficient......but lighter engines made the balance wrong so they had to MOVE THE WING LOCATION which screwed the flight characteristics all to hell and instead of having a single well-designed plane, they were forced to monkey around with the flight controls to put in an automatic counter to a tendency to climb automatically (which would stall the plane).  So you have a computer basically constantly trying to dive the plane to counter the bad flight design that makes it climb, and to an untrained or unaware pilot it seems like it's flying steady when really it's a razor's edge of pulling and pushing in two opposite directions - if anything tips that balance, all of a  sudden the pilot has to deal with forces that are way out of whack with what he/she should be experiencing, systems taht are working against manual control, and it can lead very easily to catastrophic consequences.  This farking shiatshow should have never left the ground.  It's insane that the FAA is allowing it to stay in the air just because they don't want to hurt Boeing's bottom line.


Yeah, but think of all the money saved from the training budget.
 
2019-03-12 11:46:29 AM  

cefm: That plane was "designed" by engineers and budget analysts, with no consideration for actually FLYING the damn thing.

Took a normal 737 with 40 years of track record, and then put new engines and materials into it to lighten weight and make it more efficient......but lighter engines made the balance wrong so they had to MOVE THE WING LOCATION which screwed the flight characteristics all to hell and instead of having a single well-designed plane, they were forced to monkey around with the flight controls to put in an automatic counter to a tendency to climb automatically (which would stall the plane).  So you have a computer basically constantly trying to dive the plane to counter the bad flight design that makes it climb, and to an untrained or unaware pilot it seems like it's flying steady when really it's a razor's edge of pulling and pushing in two opposite directions - if anything tips that balance, all of a  sudden the pilot has to deal with forces that are way out of whack with what he/she should be experiencing, systems taht are working against manual control, and it can lead very easily to catastrophic consequences.  This farking shiatshow should have never left the ground.  It's insane that the FAA is allowing it to stay in the air just because they don't want to hurt Boeing's bottom line.


Get this man a Puppers. About the best summary of the problem I've seen. I regret that I only have one smart to give.
 
2019-03-12 11:47:51 AM  

Charlie Freak: I don't understand why an airline would elect not to active the AoA dial.


Maybe it was an option? Back in the day of the DC-10, stick shakers were optional for the co-pilot's control yoke. It contributed to the crash of AA191.
 
2019-03-12 11:48:25 AM  

cefm: This farking shiatshow should have never left the ground.  It's insane that the FAA is allowing it to stay in the air just because they don't want to hurt Boeing's bottom line.


But won't somebody think of the poor Shareholders (praise be unto them)???
 
2019-03-12 11:49:41 AM  

Znuh: "If you've introduced a new system designed to exert authority over a primary flight control, well, that's a nice thing to know."


That's the worst part of the whole deal! Boeing told no one during training for the new aircraft. After the Lion Air crash the MCAS was talked about. All (or almost all) of the AA and SWA pilots who went through the differential training to upgrade from NG to MAX aircraft said "What is on that new plane now?!"
 
2019-03-12 11:49:49 AM  

mrmopar5287: Charlie Freak: I don't understand why an airline would elect not to active the AoA dial.

Maybe it was an option? Back in the day of the DC-10, stick shakers were optional for the co-pilot's control yoke. It contributed to the crash of AA191.


It is an option - I think it's a simple software switch. Southwest just turned theirs on.
 
2019-03-12 11:51:37 AM  

gophurt: Charlie Freak: iron_city_ap: Charlie Freak: T Baggins: Mad Scientist: I have a flight on a Southwest Max on April 5.  Get a move on, Boeing.

After the Indonesian crash, Southwest activated AOA indicators on their main displays for 737 Maxes, and already had heads up displays on most of their 737s with AOA info already shown. I think the 737s that crashed saved money by skipping HUDs, and didn't activate the indicators on their heads down displays. 737 Maxes are still designed to try and crash if a sensor fails, but with the AOA displays, Southwest's pilots are likelier to understand the situation more quickly during failures, allowing them to avoid crashing.

I don't understand why an airline would elect not to active the AoA dial.

The Lion Air crash was because of a faulty AOA sensor, at least on the mechanical side of it. Having the display activated likely wouldn't have changed anything.

Yeah, but you know as well as I that any gauge can receive and/or display faulty data. That'd be like removing the airspeed indicator because a pitot tube got plugged once.

Further, you can often troubleshoot and isolate the faulty AoA data by comparing the flightpath vector (if enabled) and the deck angle. That way you'd at least know you're fighting a system that think it's tits-up.

How about Boeing adds that logic to their software so the pilot doesn't have to figure it out. Hell, a webcam looking at a bubble level would probably work.


Nah, with the exception of the turn coordinator, bubbles are notoriously bad indicators when you have forces acting in three dimensions.
 
2019-03-12 11:51:40 AM  

Schlubbe: the whole jackscrew issue


That's a maintenance issue, not a design or operation issue.
 
2019-03-12 11:51:41 AM  

IvyLady: AugieDoggyDaddy: Wow, a software patch coming out next month?   That's suspiciously quick for a possible problem (not yet proven) that occurred only a few months ago.  I have a feeling that Boeing has know about this for a bit longer.

Or it's a rushed, poorly tested software patch that puts thousands of lives at risk every day - and was promised purely to end a stock sell-off


Test it in production!
 
2019-03-12 11:53:59 AM  
The new release is scheduled for April 1st, every thing should be fine ..
 
2019-03-12 11:55:24 AM  
The only pilot I'd fly with on that piece of junk.
image.syracuse.comView Full Size
 
2019-03-12 11:57:16 AM  
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2019-03-12 11:59:30 AM  

WalkingCarpet: Next month and the planes stay in the air until then, what the fark?  Are they running Windows ME or some shiat?


It's VISTA.
 
2019-03-12 11:59:58 AM  

cefm: to lighten weight


Heh, Boeing did nothing to lighten the plane. New struts and nacelles for the heavier engines add bulk, the main landing gear and supporting structure are beefier, and fuselage skins are thicker in some places for a 6,500 pound increase to empty aircraft weight. To preserve fuel and payload capacity, its maximum takeoff weight is 7,000 pounds greater.

The 737 MAX really is not that great of a plane in comparison with the A320neo, or (most importantly) the A220 (formerly the Bombardier CSeries). Boeing did nothing to upgrade the plane to use modern composite materials. In hindsight it might have been better for Boeing to commit to a clean sheet design similar to the Dreamliner.
 
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