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(SacBee)   Suspected gas leak at Catholic high school turns out to be, you guessed it, dead cats in formaldehyde   ( sacbee.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, Roman Catholic Church, Capt. Keith Wade, National Cancer Institute, Sacramento, California, Natural gas, Oxygen, High School teachers, East Sacramento school  
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1850 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Nov 2018 at 5:50 PM (4 days ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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3 days ago  

Boojum2k: Mock26: Who Flipped The Crazy Switch On The Matrix: Mock26: Farking monsters. Dissection is an outdated and barbaric practice that belongs on the trash heap.

I want to hear you say that after your first life saving procedure.

That is what medical cadavers are for. And if you want to push for dissecting animals for the sake of medicine then limit it to those who have already started down the road to a career in that area. Kids in school dissecting dead animals serves no practical purpose.

You sound vegan.


Yeah, right. I just had steak and eggs for breakfast with a side of bacon. I just do not see any practical purpose for dissection of animals in Junior or Senior High School.  Most kids will never be cutting into humans or animals as part of their careers and for those who might it is something that can best be left for them to do when they go off to college. Anything they may learn from dissecting animals in public school can be taught with a book.
 
3 days ago  

lake_huron: It really does give a different understanding of anatomy to actually see and feel the structures. Virtual anatomy is not the same. You don't understand how tightly packed and interconnected the structures are until you see them.


Yeah, so what? For the vast majority of those in public school that knowledge serves no practical purpose. I am a web developer and before that data support for a stock exchange. Dissecting various animals in 7th grade did not help me in any way. And anything I learned about the anatomy of those animals was forgotten before I even started high school. 

Yeah, yeah, I get it, there is the whole idea about producing young adults with a well-rounded education, but knowing "how tightly packed and interconnected the structures are" serves no practical purpose for most of the students in public school. But, since you obviously disagree, tell me why for the vast majority of students that just knowing the various organs of a cat, for example, is not as good as knowing that those organs are tightly packed together. Tell me why knowing they are packed so tightly together is so damned important.
 
3 days ago  

lake_huron: How is a kid going to know if they're interested in the subject matter if they don't get exposed?


So, what, are you saying that the only way kids would be interested in becoming (insert some career) is by dissecting animals?  Bull. My junior high school in my city was the only one that offered it at the time. The other three had done away with it. And it was not offered in our high school at all. Yet some of my classmates somehow managed to become interested in careers in medicine and biology and medical research. Imagine that.
 
3 days ago  

Mock26: lake_huron: It really does give a different understanding of anatomy to actually see and feel the structures. Virtual anatomy is not the same. You don't understand how tightly packed and interconnected the structures are until you see them.

Yeah, so what? For the vast majority of those in public school that knowledge serves no practical purpose. I am a web developer and before that data support for a stock exchange. Dissecting various animals in 7th grade did not help me in any way. And anything I learned about the anatomy of those animals was forgotten before I even started high school. 

Yeah, yeah, I get it, there is the whole idea about producing young adults with a well-rounded education, but knowing "how tightly packed and interconnected the structures are" serves no practical purpose for most of the students in public school. But, since you obviously disagree, tell me why for the vast majority of students that just knowing the various organs of a cat, for example, is not as good as knowing that those organs are tightly packed together. Tell me why knowing they are packed so tightly together is so damned important.


Therefore, anything you learned that did not contribute to you being a web developer was a waste and should be in nobody"s educational curriculum. I get it.
 
3 days ago  

lake_huron: Mock26: lake_huron: It really does give a different understanding of anatomy to actually see and feel the structures. Virtual anatomy is not the same. You don't understand how tightly packed and interconnected the structures are until you see them.

Yeah, so what? For the vast majority of those in public school that knowledge serves no practical purpose. I am a web developer and before that data support for a stock exchange. Dissecting various animals in 7th grade did not help me in any way. And anything I learned about the anatomy of those animals was forgotten before I even started high school. 

Yeah, yeah, I get it, there is the whole idea about producing young adults with a well-rounded education, but knowing "how tightly packed and interconnected the structures are" serves no practical purpose for most of the students in public school. But, since you obviously disagree, tell me why for the vast majority of students that just knowing the various organs of a cat, for example, is not as good as knowing that those organs are tightly packed together. Tell me why knowing they are packed so tightly together is so damned important.

Therefore, anything you learned that did not contribute to you being a web developer was a waste and should be in nobody"s educational curriculum. I get it.


Tell me why for the vast majority of students that just knowing the various organs of a cat, for example, is not as good as knowing that those organs are tightly packed together. Tell me why knowing they are packed so tightly together is so damned important.

Gonna take a stab at those?
 
3 days ago  

Mock26: lake_huron: Mock26: lake_huron: It really does give a different understanding of anatomy to actually see and feel the structures. Virtual anatomy is not the same. You don't understand how tightly packed and interconnected the structures are until you see them.

Yeah, so what? For the vast majority of those in public school that knowledge serves no practical purpose. I am a web developer and before that data support for a stock exchange. Dissecting various animals in 7th grade did not help me in any way. And anything I learned about the anatomy of those animals was forgotten before I even started high school. 

Yeah, yeah, I get it, there is the whole idea about producing young adults with a well-rounded education, but knowing "how tightly packed and interconnected the structures are" serves no practical purpose for most of the students in public school. But, since you obviously disagree, tell me why for the vast majority of students that just knowing the various organs of a cat, for example, is not as good as knowing that those organs are tightly packed together. Tell me why knowing they are packed so tightly together is so damned important.

Therefore, anything you learned that did not contribute to you being a web developer was a waste and should be in nobody"s educational curriculum. I get it.

Tell me why for the vast majority of students that just knowing the various organs of a cat, for example, is not as good as knowing that those organs are tightly packed together. Tell me why knowing they are packed so tightly together is so damned important.

Gonna take a stab at those?


You are correct. There is absolutely nothing to be learned from a dissection besides that the organs are tightly packed.  That is the only fact to be learned from dissection, so it has no value whatsoever.

Your arguments have overturned hundreds of years of knowledge.  I stand humbled.

I look forward to your pronouncements on what books have no value and should not be taught, what periods of history should not be taught, and what branches of mathematics have no use to most people, I.e. anything past basic arithmetic and geometry, since nobody uses trigonometry on a daily basis.

Please come be the superintendent of my children's school system. The schools crave the revolution which you herald.
 
2 days ago  
Fine, a company which sells animals for dissection has an even-handed discussion. You can argue it is in their self-interest and not look at it if you like:
https://m.carolina.com/teacher-resour​c​es/Interactive/dissection-faqs/tr10913​.tr

Basically your question is whether hands-on science provides knowledge which book knowledge does not. If you argue that dissection has no value, you are also saying that physics and chemistry labs have no value.  It is essentially a denial of the value of hands-on science.

Did you do a chemistry lab? Hard to get the experimental yield you do on paper. To translate it into terms more familiar, lab science is about DEBUGGING. Getting the experiment to work. Finding the gall bladder tucked in behind the liver, no so easy to find not helpfully colored with red arteries and blue veins.

Understanding the interrelationships of organs is analogous to a physics experiment with springs or organic synthesis. Sure, you can read all the books you want, but it's qualitatively different.

I got a doctorate in biophysics first. Reading about X-ray crystallography or protein purification was a lot easier than doing it.

Does a lack of one of those experiences cripple you for life? Of course not. But we still teach Dickens, too. It's a valuable part of a broad education.  And who uses trig?

If you think you should also teach chemistry or physics without a lab class then at least you are consistent. But that's a very narrow view of the world which scientists, physicians, and science educators do not share.
 
2 days ago  

lake_huron: Mock26: lake_huron: Mock26: lake_huron: It really does give a different understanding of anatomy to actually see and feel the structures. Virtual anatomy is not the same. You don't understand how tightly packed and interconnected the structures are until you see them.

Yeah, so what? For the vast majority of those in public school that knowledge serves no practical purpose. I am a web developer and before that data support for a stock exchange. Dissecting various animals in 7th grade did not help me in any way. And anything I learned about the anatomy of those animals was forgotten before I even started high school. 

Yeah, yeah, I get it, there is the whole idea about producing young adults with a well-rounded education, but knowing "how tightly packed and interconnected the structures are" serves no practical purpose for most of the students in public school. But, since you obviously disagree, tell me why for the vast majority of students that just knowing the various organs of a cat, for example, is not as good as knowing that those organs are tightly packed together. Tell me why knowing they are packed so tightly together is so damned important.

Therefore, anything you learned that did not contribute to you being a web developer was a waste and should be in nobody"s educational curriculum. I get it.

Tell me why for the vast majority of students that just knowing the various organs of a cat, for example, is not as good as knowing that those organs are tightly packed together. Tell me why knowing they are packed so tightly together is so damned important.


Tell me why for the vast majority of students that just knowing the various organs of a cat, for example, is not as good as knowing that those organs are tightly packed together. Tell me why knowing they are packed so tightly together is so damned important.

Gonna take a stab at those?

You are correct. There is absolutely nothing to be learned from a dissection besides that the organs are tightly packed.  That is the only fact to be learned from dissection, so it has no value whatsoever.

Your arguments have overturned hundreds of years of knowledge.  I stand humbled.

I look forward to your pronouncements on what books have no value and should not be taught, what periods of history should not be taught, and what branches of mathematics have no use to most people, I.e. anything past basic arithmetic and geometry, since nobody uses trigonometry on a daily basis.

Please come be the superintendent of my children's school system. The schools crave the revolution which you herald.


You yourself said that they no longer dissect dogs at medical school because it is, and I quote, "probably not educational enough to sacrifice a dog." If dissecting a dog in farking medical school is not educational enough for medical students then how in bloody farking hades is any dissection educational enough for students, the vast majority of whom will never enter into the fields of medicine or biology?

For someone who is supposedly qualified to have an opinion on this your opinion does not seem to be worth a pile of rancid whale schitt. You go on and on about how this knowledge is so damned important, that hundreds of years of knowledge cannot be wrong, despite the fact that in a previous post you pretty much said that knowledge gained from dissecting a dog is "not educational enough"for medical students! One would think that future doctors, people who will probably be cutting into living people, would benefit from dissecting animals in medical school, but according to you, it is "not educational enough."
 
2 days ago  

lake_huron: Basically your question is whether hands-on science provides knowledge which book knowledge does not. If you argue that dissection has no value, you are also saying that physics and chemistry labs have no value.  It is essentially a denial of the value of hands-on science.


No. I have not argued that it has no value. I have argued that it has no value for the vast majority of public school students, because the vast majority of them will never go on to careers in the fields of medicine or biology.  Care to explain what exactly all the retail salespeople, cashiers, office clerks, cooks, waitstaff, customer service reps, factory workers, janitors, garbage men, stock clerks, secretaries, truck drivers, construction workers, and all the other non-medical/biology workers gained from dissecting an actual animal that they could not have learned from a book? And remember, you said that dog lab was probably of no educational value for would be doctors in Medical school. 

As for your source, geez, I bet in all the gun discussions you regularly link to the NRA website as a source of information on why owning a gun is good. or did you ever stop to think that one of the biggest suppliers of animals for dissection might just be biased on the subject? 

And again, because you seem to have missed it every single farking time I have said, I am not saying that there is nothing to be gained from dissection. I am saying that it is of no benefit for the vast majority of people in public school (all those people who will grow up to be retail salespeople, cashiers, office clerks, cooks, waitstaff, customer service reps, factory workers, janitors, garbage men, stock clerks, secretaries, truck drivers, construction workers, and all the other non-medical/biology workers).
 
2 days ago  
I pointed out up front that the source was biased. Not sure why you act like it was a discovery to point that out  I happen to agree with their arguments.

The dog lab was a LIVE PHSYIOLOGY lab. Not anatomy. We got to see lungs at work, see the heart beating in situ, and so on. Not an anatomy lab. If you don't understand the distinction, perhaps you didn't learn enough biology.

Your argument of "no value to clerks and cashiers" is ultimately stupid.  Because you can use that argument for every.single thing you ever learned in school.

Which ignores the entire point of education, Which is to learn about a lot of things as background for what you eventually do.

Help me understand your thought process by answering these two questions:
1. Should we teach physics in high school?
2. Should physics have a lab component?
 
2 days ago  
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