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(Hack A Day)   I don't wanna grow up, I'm exploring an abandoned Toys-R-Us store, they got a million photocopies of employee's personal data that anybody could steal, wait, not only does that not rhyme, it's really negligent on the part of the former company   ( hackaday.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, store, I Love Toys, toy store, toys, defunct toy store, personal information, stuff, n't jyst grandparents  
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2820 clicks; posted to Geek » on 23 Sep 2018 at 4:35 AM (12 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



40 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2018-09-23 12:42:31 AM  
Not "negligent" - "actionable."

For example, the author indicated that they found "medical history and tax forms." The former would be a violation of HIPAA, the latter a violation of multiple IRS statutes. Employers are required by law to maintain confidentiality and control over such information for employees.

Just because they're out of business doesn't mean they're out of the woods on this stuff.
 
2018-09-23 12:48:00 AM  
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-09-23 01:41:23 AM  

FormlessOne: Not "negligent" - "actionable."

For example, the author indicated that they found "medical history and tax forms." The former would be a violation of HIPAA, the latter a violation of multiple IRS statutes. Employers are required by law to maintain confidentiality and control over such information for employees.

Just because they're out of business doesn't mean they're out of the woods on this stuff.


They're bankruptcy and liquidated. The assets were auctioned to pay the senior hedge fund lenders.

So, you know, good luck with finding the pot of cash to make a claim against. Because you can get in line with all the other unpaid creditors.
 
2018-09-23 03:32:28 AM  
security staff were likely let go before the floor associates. Unlikely anyone was too concerned about stopping shoplifters during a liquidation sale.

DAMMIT.
 
2018-09-23 05:18:34 AM  

fusillade762: security staff were likely let go before the floor associates. Unlikely anyone was too concerned about stopping shoplifters during a liquidation sale.

DAMMIT.


When I was in college I asked a guy at a going out of business sale what he'd do if I just walked out without paying for anything.  His answer was something along the lines of, "The only thing I care about right now is if my last paycheck will clear."

I walked out without paying.  He wished me a good day.
 
2018-09-23 06:01:50 AM  

davidphogan: I walked out without paying.  He wished me a good day.


Well, at least you're a self-aware thief.
 
2018-09-23 07:16:40 AM  

davidphogan: fusillade762: security staff were likely let go before the floor associates. Unlikely anyone was too concerned about stopping shoplifters during a liquidation sale.

DAMMIT.

When I was in college I asked a guy at a going out of business sale what he'd do if I just walked out without paying for anything.  His answer was something along the lines of, "The only thing I care about right now is if my last paycheck will clear."

I walked out without paying.  He wished me a good day.


Quasi-csb:
I was the close shift manager for a small local gas station about 11 or so years ago. One day in the middle of the afternoon I get a call from the owner to come in early, he needs some help.
I show up and everything is 75% off, and he's got a moving van parked out back. Tells me he's closing that day at the end of the shift (because fark his ex-wife, he's bailing before she can take the business). I help him pack his U-haul. We disconnect the security cams and he takes the tapes. We drink a 6 pack in the cooler together (while I'm on the clock).
Around 6 PM he leaves, tells me to just get rid of as much merch as possible and he'll be back for the till later that night, so I played Monty Hall that evening. "How much was it worth to you? $1? Sounds good, sale!".
Come closing time, since I no longer needed to do a cigarette count, and it didn't matter any way, I walked out of there with 5 cartons of Camels, 25 loose packs of them, 6 cartons of Newports and just as many loose packs. Grabbed the Camels for myself, the Newports to sell to friends for $5 a pack.
 
2018-09-23 07:20:59 AM  

FormlessOne: Not "negligent" - "actionable."

For example, the author indicated that they found "medical history and tax forms." The former would be a violation of HIPAA, the latter a violation of multiple IRS statutes. Employers are required by law to maintain confidentiality and control over such information for employees.

Just because they're out of business doesn't mean they're out of the woods on this stuff.


You can't take action against a dead company. The corporate liability shield will keep any consequence away from any individual. Now if this happened in a socialist hellhole like Britain action could be taken against individuals for breaches against the Data Protection Act and others due to personal liability but in Freedom Land no such luck.
 
2018-09-23 07:34:20 AM  

wejash: FormlessOne: Not "negligent" - "actionable."

For example, the author indicated that they found "medical history and tax forms." The former would be a violation of HIPAA, the latter a violation of multiple IRS statutes. Employers are required by law to maintain confidentiality and control over such information for employees.

Just because they're out of business doesn't mean they're out of the woods on this stuff.

They're bankruptcy and liquidated. The assets were auctioned to pay the senior hedge fund lenders.

So, you know, good luck with finding the pot of cash to make a claim against. Because you can get in line with all the other unpaid creditors.


The insurance companies have the deepest pockets. So whoever was insuring We'B'Toys would be in a panic if they found out about these records lying around.
 
2018-09-23 07:44:32 AM  
I would expect the Fark libertarians to shout that this is al the fault of the buyers and former employees vis-a-vis caveat emptor.

Besides, consequences for this sort of thing might offend the job-creator gods so that's right out.
 
2018-09-23 08:06:08 AM  
I don't understand why any of you want this pinned on the executives for punishment. If the laws did allow going after responsible individuals, the store manager likely had to take the blame. We aren't talking about records at corporate, we're talking about an individual store where the manager didn't do his job. You might even be able to get a regional manager to take this blame if he was supposed to oversee closings and shuttering of stores. But unless executives sent emails telling store owners to take off and hope for the best regarding closings... I fail to see how it's their fault.
 
2018-09-23 08:14:22 AM  

Quantumbunny: I don't understand why any of you want this pinned on the executives for punishment. If the laws did allow going after responsible individuals, the store manager likely had to take the blame. We aren't talking about records at corporate, we're talking about an individual store where the manager didn't do his job. You might even be able to get a regional manager to take this blame if he was supposed to oversee closings and shuttering of stores. But unless executives sent emails telling store owners to take off and hope for the best regarding closings... I fail to see how it's their fault.


The comments include a claim from a former employee that Hq closed two weeks before the stores did - meaning the instructions they were given to return the records to hq could not be followed. IANALTG, but as a layman it seems like the corporate folks are at least partly responsible. Perhaps a due care claim?
 
2018-09-23 08:41:10 AM  

Cpl.D: davidphogan: I walked out without paying.  He wished me a good day.

Well, at least you're a self-aware thief.


It's the only time I think I've ever stolen anything from a store. It was funny then and it's still funny to me.
 
2018-09-23 09:25:38 AM  
...My take would be that every last person in those stores - emphasis on the 'last' - was being pushed to get the hell out as fast as they could (every dime they were paying the people to finish was coming out of the pockets of the people running the shutdown)  and the only thing that anyone was looking at was the sales floor and stockrooms.
 
2018-09-23 09:28:51 AM  

wejash: Just because they're out of business doesn't mean they're out of the woods on this stuff.

They're bankruptcy and liquidated. The assets were auctioned to pay the senior hedge fund lenders.

So, you know, good luck with finding the pot of cash to make a claim against. Because you can get in line with all the other unpaid creditors.


I have heard a libertarian claim in the course of the same argument that a corporation is a person and that a corporation is just a piece of paper in a filing cabinet somewhere in Delaware.  Which it is depends on what is convenient to the people who get the money from it.
 
2018-09-23 09:32:30 AM  
This one isn't nearly as bad as the NCIX bankruptcy breach: https://www.privacyfly.com/ar​ticles/nc​ix_breach/

They stopped paying their bills, so the datacenter they were collocated at just sold all of the customer data on the servers.
 
2018-09-23 10:14:45 AM  
Good find, thankyou subby.
I'd love to explore somewhere like that, super eerie.
 
2018-09-23 10:23:26 AM  

Norfolking Chance: FormlessOne: Not "negligent" - "actionable."

For example, the author indicated that they found "medical history and tax forms." The former would be a violation of HIPAA, the latter a violation of multiple IRS statutes. Employers are required by law to maintain confidentiality and control over such information for employees.

Just because they're out of business doesn't mean they're out of the woods on this stuff.

You can't take action against a dead company. The corporate liability shield will keep any consequence away from any individual. Now if this happened in a socialist hellhole like Britain action could be taken against individuals for breaches against the Data Protection Act and others due to personal liability but in Freedom Land no such luck.


Not true. The medical records, if they fall under HIPAA (Toys'R'Us isn't normally thought of as a covered entity, but might be if we had more details e.g. self-paid insurance plan), then the holder of records is required to maintain them for six years. 45 CFR 164.316 lays out the timetable for commercial insurance, which if this data in any way fed into it, it would fall under it. Whoever is the legal owner of the company following its sale or dissolution is the responsible party.

Additionally, HHS-OIG takes a dim view of simply abandoning personal health information, requiring burning or shredding it instead: HHS commentary on disposal of records

And a case decided this year to prove the point: FileFax 2018 case - but the company was dead by 2017
 
2018-09-23 10:39:08 AM  
Wonder which PA store this was.  Based on the video it isn't the one in Whitehall.
 
2018-09-23 10:44:55 AM  

rwhamann: Quantumbunny: I don't understand why any of you want this pinned on the executives for punishment. If the laws did allow going after responsible individuals, the store manager likely had to take the blame. We aren't talking about records at corporate, we're talking about an individual store where the manager didn't do his job. You might even be able to get a regional manager to take this blame if he was supposed to oversee closings and shuttering of stores. But unless executives sent emails telling store owners to take off and hope for the best regarding closings... I fail to see how it's their fault.

The comments include a claim from a former employee that Hq closed two weeks before the stores did - meaning the instructions they were given to return the records to hq could not be followed. IANALTG, but as a layman it seems like the corporate folks are at least partly responsible. Perhaps a due care claim?


Then it's the responsibility of the local manager to secure those records, or destroy them.
 
2018-09-23 10:50:55 AM  

rwhamann: Quantumbunny: I don't understand why any of you want this pinned on the executives for punishment. If the laws did allow going after responsible individuals, the store manager likely had to take the blame. We aren't talking about records at corporate, we're talking about an individual store where the manager didn't do his job. You might even be able to get a regional manager to take this blame if he was supposed to oversee closings and shuttering of stores. But unless executives sent emails telling store owners to take off and hope for the best regarding closings... I fail to see how it's their fault.

The comments include a claim from a former employee that Hq closed two weeks before the stores did - meaning the instructions they were given to return the records to hq could not be followed. IANALTG, but as a layman it seems like the corporate folks are at least partly responsible. Perhaps a due care claim?


I find that hard to believe.  How can you liquidate hundreds or thousands of stores without a place to funnel both the money and the financial reports?  Simply not credible to me.
 
2018-09-23 11:03:16 AM  
<csb>
I've gone through something like this twice, but it was at casinos
The first time was early on in my career, and we had to salvage a place closed by Katrina. At that time, I was really worried about getting busted for anything, so I didn't procure anything for myself, but One of the vendors came in to get their stuff,and asked if we wanted the computers & monitors that were still there because they were old & would be scrapped anyway.
The second time was due to a bankruptcy, and nobody gave a shiat about anything, so we were pulling Cat6, plastic fiber optic cables, switches, liquor, clothes from the gift shop, and pretty much anything that wasn't bolted down.Looking back on it, there's some stuff I could have taken out that would have made some serious cash on E-Bay.
</csb>
 
2018-09-23 11:03:38 AM  

envirovore: davidphogan: fusillade762: security staff were likely let go before the floor associates. Unlikely anyone was too concerned about stopping shoplifters during a liquidation sale.

DAMMIT.

When I was in college I asked a guy at a going out of business sale what he'd do if I just walked out without paying for anything.  His answer was something along the lines of, "The only thing I care about right now is if my last paycheck will clear."

I walked out without paying.  He wished me a good day.

Quasi-csb:
I was the close shift manager for a small local gas station about 11 or so years ago. One day in the middle of the afternoon I get a call from the owner to come in early, he needs some help.
I show up and everything is 75% off, and he's got a moving van parked out back. Tells me he's closing that day at the end of the shift (because fark his ex-wife, he's bailing before she can take the business). I help him pack his U-haul. We disconnect the security cams and he takes the tapes. We drink a 6 pack in the cooler together (while I'm on the clock).
Around 6 PM he leaves, tells me to just get rid of as much merch as possible and he'll be back for the till later that night, so I played Monty Hall that evening. "How much was it worth to you? $1? Sounds good, sale!".
Come closing time, since I no longer needed to do a cigarette count, and it didn't matter any way, I walked out of there with 5 cartons of Camels, 25 loose packs of them, 6 cartons of Newports and just as many loose packs. Grabbed the Camels for myself, the Newports to sell to friends for $5 a pack.


When compUSA was shutting down the liquidators came in and basically said "all that leave you requested?  We're ignoring it and if you don't come in you're fired."  And this was during finals week.  So I walked out the door (and was the only person scheduled to do guest service/register) to screams of "you can't leave now you're the only one working". Apparently the entire TV sales team also walked out soon after (similar situations), leaving like 3 people to run the entire store.
 
2018-09-23 11:12:34 AM  

fang06554: This one isn't nearly as bad as the NCIX bankruptcy breach: https://www.privacyfly.com/art​icles/ncix_breach/

They stopped paying their bills, so the datacenter they were collocated at just sold all of the customer data on the servers.


That one is more easily actionable.

Here there are no pockets to tap
 
2018-09-23 11:43:33 AM  
wait, doesn't the judge overseeing the bankruptcy have ultimate authority over the entire process?
 
2018-09-23 12:00:16 PM  
When I lived in Scottsdale, AZ, a small mall closed down. You could stroll around in there and go wherever you wanted. There were a fair number of gawkers and some business people working on things. You could tell where not to go and where nobody cared.

The one thing that stood out was an optometry shop. They had pulled (or someone had) all the eye glass frames but there were hundreds and hundreds of boxes of contacts laying around this darkened, unlocked, trash-scattered closed store. Made me realize they must barely be squeaking out a profit on those $45 a box contacts when they can't be bothered to take them with.
 
2018-09-23 12:06:23 PM  
When I was in my 20s I managed a local video store that got bought out by a big-name national video store chain. Our store had an adult room-- X-rated videos-- and since the national chain didn't do adult videos at all, it fell to me to "destroy" and "dispose of" an entire room full of porn on VHS.

So I sat in the porn room for a couple days, smashing video cassettes with a hammer and tossing the remains into garbage bags. However, I might have failed to smash some of them effectively, and those videos may have ended up in bags, in the pile of trash behind the building. And I may have lived within walking distance of work and might have walked back one night to see if the bags were picked up by our trash company yet, and upon seeing that they had failed to get them or were running late, I might have taken home with me to dispose of them properly. . . 12 years later.

I can say in good faith that every one of those video tapes was destroyed and ended up in a landfill somewhere. I just can't say that they did it before the company that bought us out ended up going bankrupt and out of business themselves.
 
2018-09-23 12:10:39 PM  

edmo: When I lived in Scottsdale, AZ, a small mall closed down. You could stroll around in there and go wherever you wanted. There were a fair number of gawkers and some business people working on things. You could tell where not to go and where nobody cared.

The one thing that stood out was an optometry shop. They had pulled (or someone had) all the eye glass frames but there were hundreds and hundreds of boxes of contacts laying around this darkened, unlocked, trash-scattered closed store. Made me realize they must barely be squeaking out a profit on those $45 a box contacts when they can't be bothered to take them with.


It's not that. Contacts have an expiration date, and if you have a crap supplier they won't do a buyback during a store liquidation. You can't sell them after the date, and since they're prescription items you can't just sell them to anybody during your store clearance. The people buying them have to have a prescription to match the exact contacts.

So they were effectively worthless if the store was closing down.

/Managed an optometry office.
//Had to throw out lots of boxes of contacts every few months.
///The profit margin on them is actually pretty decent.
 
2018-09-23 01:17:04 PM  
(Kinda not-CSB)
Well, I do know for sure that when they remodel for a new company or destroy the former Toys R Us location in Downers Grove Illinois, Someone will find me memorialized.  On taking a break late one afternoon, my time card slid down behind the urinal in the men's room.  Was unable to get to it without removing a wall or the urinal, so I lost 4 days pay for that week.  This was in the late 80's. and I was making a whopping $3.25 per hour at the time, and back then TRU didn't pay overtime.  This was during the run up to Christmas, so I was working 7AM to 2AM at the time trying to get money to buy Christmas presents.  Management of the store could care less, and told me that I deserved to loose the 76 hours so far for that week, because I was not willing to work on my birthday, which according to company policy was supposed to be a paid day off.  Apparently if your birthday falls between mid November and Christmas, that policy doesn't apply to you.
Yup, $250 behind the drain.
(End Non-CSB)
 
2018-09-23 02:14:07 PM  
I like how the author is amazed at the "workshop". Does he think something as big as that stores like this just repair themselves? They would have a maintenance guy on staff lost likely, or at least someone who doubled as the maintenance guy, and that person would need a place to work.
 
2018-09-23 04:47:29 PM  

AtlanticCoast63: ...My take would be that every last person in those stores - emphasis on the 'last' - was being pushed to get the hell out as fast as they could (every dime they were paying the people to finish was coming out of the pockets of the people running the shutdown)  and the only thing that anyone was looking at was the sales floor and stockrooms.


Yep.  Just leaving that records stuff there didn't cost anything.  Should have at least called a documents destruction company or whatever they're called, to run a truck out there to shred the stuff.
 
2018-09-23 05:00:52 PM  
Billy Liar:

Yep.  Just leaving that records stuff there didn't cost anything.  Should have at least called a documents destruction company or whatever they're called, to run a truck out there to shred the stuff.

You are correct, but that would cost them at least $40, and depending on how many pounds of paper there is, it could be over $200-300.  Cheaper to leave it there and let someone else deal with it.
 
2018-09-23 06:58:16 PM  

Kairam: Norfolking Chance: FormlessOne: Not "negligent" - "actionable."

For example, the author indicated that they found "medical history and tax forms." The former would be a violation of HIPAA, the latter a violation of multiple IRS statutes. Employers are required by law to maintain confidentiality and control over such information for employees.

Just because they're out of business doesn't mean they're out of the woods on this stuff.

You can't take action against a dead company. The corporate liability shield will keep any consequence away from any individual. Now if this happened in a socialist hellhole like Britain action could be taken against individuals for breaches against the Data Protection Act and others due to personal liability but in Freedom Land no such luck.

Not true. The medical records, if they fall under HIPAA (Toys'R'Us isn't normally thought of as a covered entity, but might be if we had more details e.g. self-paid insurance plan), then the holder of records is required to maintain them for six years. 45 CFR 164.316 lays out the timetable for commercial insurance, which if this data in any way fed into it, it would fall under it. Whoever is the legal owner of the company following its sale or dissolution is the responsible party.

Additionally, HHS-OIG takes a dim view of simply abandoning personal health information, requiring burning or shredding it instead: HHS commentary on disposal of records

And a case decided this year to prove the point: FileFax 2018 case - but the company was dead by 2017


Who the fark do you think you are, apparently knowing what you're talking about it and helping to inform bums like us? GTFO or I'll take your lunch money for the next two weeks.
 
2018-09-23 10:07:19 PM  
I dropped by the office of my student loan processing company after they moved offices. I send a whole bunch of stuff off to the Dept. of Edu. with a note about where and when it was found. I also found some papers form someone who had a lawyer so I sent his stuff back to the lawyer with a note saying it was found in an abandoned office.
 
2018-09-23 10:15:11 PM  

dittybopper: I find that hard to believe.  How can you liquidate hundreds or thousands of stores without a place to funnel both the money and the financial reports?  Simply not credible to me.


The liquidation companies deal with that. When Lowes Australia (aka Masters) went bust, they flew in people from a US liquidation company to oversee winding up the existing stores.
 
2018-09-23 10:29:23 PM  

wejash: FormlessOne: Not "negligent" - "actionable."

For example, the author indicated that they found "medical history and tax forms." The former would be a violation of HIPAA, the latter a violation of multiple IRS statutes. Employers are required by law to maintain confidentiality and control over such information for employees.

Just because they're out of business doesn't mean they're out of the woods on this stuff.

They're bankruptcy and liquidated. The assets were auctioned to pay the senior hedge fund lenders.

So, you know, good luck with finding the pot of cash to make a claim against. Because you can get in line with all the other unpaid creditors.


Shouldn't stuff like employee records jump to the head of the line if you can sue them fast enough?  there ought to be another law about that.
 
2018-09-23 11:13:00 PM  

hammer85: envirovore: davidphogan: fusillade762: security staff were likely let go before the floor associates. Unlikely anyone was too concerned about stopping shoplifters during a liquidation sale.

DAMMIT.

When I was in college I asked a guy at a going out of business sale what he'd do if I just walked out without paying for anything.  His answer was something along the lines of, "The only thing I care about right now is if my last paycheck will clear."

I walked out without paying.  He wished me a good day.

Quasi-csb:
I was the close shift manager for a small local gas station about 11 or so years ago. One day in the middle of the afternoon I get a call from the owner to come in early, he needs some help.
I show up and everything is 75% off, and he's got a moving van parked out back. Tells me he's closing that day at the end of the shift (because fark his ex-wife, he's bailing before she can take the business). I help him pack his U-haul. We disconnect the security cams and he takes the tapes. We drink a 6 pack in the cooler together (while I'm on the clock).
Around 6 PM he leaves, tells me to just get rid of as much merch as possible and he'll be back for the till later that night, so I played Monty Hall that evening. "How much was it worth to you? $1? Sounds good, sale!".
Come closing time, since I no longer needed to do a cigarette count, and it didn't matter any way, I walked out of there with 5 cartons of Camels, 25 loose packs of them, 6 cartons of Newports and just as many loose packs. Grabbed the Camels for myself, the Newports to sell to friends for $5 a pack.

When compUSA was shutting down the liquidators came in and basically said "all that leave you requested?  We're ignoring it and if you don't come in you're fired."  And this was during finals week.  So I walked out the door (and was the only person scheduled to do guest service/register) to screams of "you can't leave now you're the only one working". Apparently the entire TV sales team also walked out s ...


Threats against someone who has nothing to lose, especially when you've just screwed the mover, seldom work.

The last time I was laid off the company went out of their way to be supportive.  It was a bad time for us. My wife's grandmother was dying and we had just booked non-refundable tickets to say our goodbyes.  The owner found out about this and purposely delayed my paperwork for a couple of weeks so that I would get a little extra pay beyond the severance.
 
2018-09-23 11:26:28 PM  

OgreMagi: The last time I was laid off the company went out of their way to be supportive.  It was a bad time for us. My wife's grandmother was dying and we had just booked non-refundable tickets to say our goodbyes.  The owner found out about this and purposely delayed my paperwork for a couple of weeks so that I would get a little extra pay beyond the severance.


Good on that guy for helping out like that.

If you're able to track him down without making it apparent that you found an address that wasn't publicly available maybe send a Christmas card or something. It'd be a small thing, to be sure, but sometimes the small things can make somebody's day.
 
2018-09-24 01:52:16 PM  
Assemble a very large bang of corporate trial lawyers, they're cheap!  Then prosecute this company for MILLIONS because they left a copy of 16 year old Susie's DL!  Then....much later, figure out oh they went bankrupt, and have shiat-0 money to pay you.  So..yeah, it sucks....like taxes...but, such is life.
 
2018-09-24 05:03:42 PM  

WoodyHayes: Kairam: Norfolking Chance: FormlessOne: Not "negligent" - "actionable."

For example, the author indicated that they found "medical history and tax forms." The former would be a violation of HIPAA, the latter a violation of multiple IRS statutes. Employers are required by law to maintain confidentiality and control over such information for employees.

Just because they're out of business doesn't mean they're out of the woods on this stuff.

You can't take action against a dead company. The corporate liability shield will keep any consequence away from any individual. Now if this happened in a socialist hellhole like Britain action could be taken against individuals for breaches against the Data Protection Act and others due to personal liability but in Freedom Land no such luck.

Not true. The medical records, if they fall under HIPAA (Toys'R'Us isn't normally thought of as a covered entity, but might be if we had more details e.g. self-paid insurance plan), then the holder of records is required to maintain them for six years. 45 CFR 164.316 lays out the timetable for commercial insurance, which if this data in any way fed into it, it would fall under it. Whoever is the legal owner of the company following its sale or dissolution is the responsible party.

Additionally, HHS-OIG takes a dim view of simply abandoning personal health information, requiring burning or shredding it instead: HHS commentary on disposal of records

And a case decided this year to prove the point: FileFax 2018 case - but the company was dead by 2017

Who the fark do you think you are, apparently knowing what you're talking about it and helping to inform bums like us? GTFO or I'll take your lunch money for the next two weeks.


I'm usually quiet when others have made the same points I was going to, except when there's a snarky crack or reference to be made. Otherwise, though, I like to inject fact and reason into arguments when I can.

/Lochness monster stole my tree-fiddy for lunch money
 
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