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(Townhall)   Catholic church abuse scandals have nothing to do with patriarchy, but is rather a misuse of the authority wielded by an organization, which just happens to be populated entirely by men   ( townhall.com) divider line
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622 clicks; posted to Politics » on 14 Sep 2018 at 2:15 PM (9 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2018-09-14 12:56:34 PM  
This itself is a classic systemic patriarchal response to a purely patriarchal problem.
 
2018-09-14 01:07:07 PM  
Perverted populations of people with penises penetrating innocents.

Has nothing to do with being male.
It has to do with having a penis.

Or so I am told by people angry about the penis.


Penis.
 
2018-09-14 01:15:01 PM  
Don't fark kids.
It's not that hard.
That's what she said.
 
2018-09-14 01:48:05 PM  
Ah yes, we're back to the classics:

"Our religious institution should not be blamed for a pervasive and centuries-old systemic problem that we've never bothered to fix. Our religion cannot fail, it can only be failed, so it has no culpability whatsoever."
 
2018-09-14 01:51:57 PM  
Pierogies.
 
2018-09-14 01:54:25 PM  
The fact that the abuse happened had nothing to do with the patriarchy. The fact that the abusers (literally referred to as.fatjers) were protected and allowed to continue abusing, is absolutely a result of a patriarchal paradigm.
 
2018-09-14 01:55:15 PM  
Fathers...jesus spellchecker. Go home, you're drunk.
 
2018-09-14 02:17:10 PM  
It's more of a problem with the Patriarchate.

/Only people from Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, or Jerusalem will get that joke.
 
2018-09-14 02:17:57 PM  
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-09-14 02:18:33 PM  
I wish some court, somewhere, would go after the Vatican.
If only to have them open up their books.
 
2018-09-14 02:19:31 PM  
Townhall? Really?

Is Stormfront down?
 
2018-09-14 02:20:23 PM  
Are you Catholic? Do you have impure thoughts? Do women disgust you? Are you burdened by fantasies of being with other men or worse, young boys? Then dedicate your life to God and join the clergy.
 
2018-09-14 02:21:27 PM  
Isn't this the quintessential patriarchy?
I think this is where the word comes from.
 
2018-09-14 02:21:52 PM  
What could be more patriarchal than a world ruled by a group of men called Father?
 
2018-09-14 02:22:59 PM  

Two16: [img.fark.net image 413x318]


img.fark.netView Full Size

Gods below, I hate that woman.
 
2018-09-14 02:23:16 PM  

LarryDan43: Are you Catholic? Do you have impure thoughts? Do women disgust you? Are you burdened by fantasies of being with other men or worse, young boys? Then dedicate your life to God and join the clergy.


You joke, but having been through 18 years of Catholic education, it's not far off.

There are a lot of people with self loathing who think "if only I just throw myself into the faith, I'll be a good person."
 
2018-09-14 02:28:12 PM  
Entirely by men?
Pretty sure Nun's are women.  I mean I've never checked but that's the rumor.
 
2018-09-14 02:30:44 PM  

Catlenfell: I wish some court, somewhere, would go after the Vatican.
If only to have them open up their books.


It's a sovereign nation. Good luck?
 
2018-09-14 02:32:18 PM  

JDAT: Entirely by men?
Pretty sure Nun's are women.  I mean I've never checked but that's the rumor.


img.fark.netView Full Size

I... look. If she's not, I don't care.
 
2018-09-14 02:34:40 PM  
PLENTIFUL PIEROGIES PILED ON A PAPER PLATE!
 
2018-09-14 02:35:41 PM  
Honestly surprised this isn't a "Catholics don't have a pedophilia problem they have a homosexuality problem, and it's time for the homosexual community to recognize they are the ones at fault" takes. Bonus points when the take suggests it is underage person under the priest's authority who generally initiates and tempts poor Humbert Humbert Father Pat.
 
2018-09-14 02:37:42 PM  

This text is now purple: Catlenfell: I wish some court, somewhere, would go after the Vatican.
If only to have them open up their books.

It's a sovereign nation. Good luck?


International Court?  Seem some crimes against humanity have occured.
 
2018-09-14 02:37:42 PM  

JDAT: Entirely by men?
Pretty sure Nun's are women.  I mean I've never checked but that's the rumor.


And sometimes the nuns are the stuff of nightmares
 
2018-09-14 02:38:42 PM  
The Catholic Church: making me feel better about going to an Episcopalian church for, idk... a few months now, at least.

/ think of it as Catholicism with significantly less bad press
 
2018-09-14 02:40:18 PM  
I'm not a psychologist, but maybe the problem is the church claims to be able to fix all these problems (such as lusting after children) if people go there and dedicate their lives to it...
but instead religion is just a load of bullshiat.
So instead it just concentrates people with those problems in one place, creating a way above average rate of people with those problems there who still act on those urges the same as anyone else with those problems.  Except they both 1. refuse to seek other help and 2. are all concentrated together in a pre-made conspiracy group.
 
2018-09-14 02:40:44 PM  
Considering that the "man" at the top is all knowing and has the ability to control everything, I'd say that's where they need to start changing things.
 
2018-09-14 02:41:11 PM  

Catlenfell: I wish some court, somewhere, would go after the Vatican.
If only to have them open up their books.


The Vatican is a sovereign nation under international law, so not gonna happen.  Unless someone decides to declare war and invade.
 
2018-09-14 02:41:40 PM  

phaseolus: JDAT: Entirely by men?
Pretty sure Nun's are women.  I mean I've never checked but that's the rumor.

And sometimes the nuns are the stuff of nightmares


Yea, if you're looking for systematic abuses in the Catholic church then women win that contest hands down.
 
2018-09-14 02:42:03 PM  

Two16: [img.fark.net image 413x318]


Hey, shouldn't you be posting that "Any Day Now" gif over in the Manafort thread?

People have been waiting all day!
 
2018-09-14 02:42:53 PM  

vudukungfu: Perverted populations of people with penises penetrating innocents

parishioners

FTFY
 
2018-09-14 02:46:01 PM  
I'd read what Clown Hall has to say about this, but I have more pleasant and productive ways to spend my time, like slamming a claw hammer into my balls.
 
2018-09-14 02:47:45 PM  
Christianism is a cancer.
 
2018-09-14 02:48:13 PM  

Hickory-smoked: Two16: [img.fark.net image 413x318]

Hey, shouldn't you be posting that "Any Day Now" gif over in the Manafort thread?

People have been waiting all day!


img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-09-14 02:51:27 PM  
FTFA In keeping with Catholic tradition in Judaism, I met the Old Testament heroines. Judith saved the Israelites by decapitating the enemy general. Queen Esther risked her life to request the king protect her people. That's my feminism.

So your feminism is to either sleep with someone you later behead or ask the big strong king to protect you everytime you screw up?

And what does any of this have to do with male priests farking boys and girls in their care?
 
2018-09-14 02:51:27 PM  

To The Escape Zeppelin!: phaseolus: JDAT: Entirely by men?
Pretty sure Nun's are women.  I mean I've never checked but that's the rumor.

And sometimes the nuns are the stuff of nightmares

Yea, if you're looking for systematic abuses in the Catholic church then women win that contest hands down.


For the record i wasn't trying to white-knight anyone or do a "whattabout...".
 
2018-09-14 02:51:59 PM  

Grungehamster: Honestly surprised this isn't a "Catholics don't have a pedophilia problem they have a homosexuality problem, and it's time for the homosexual community to recognize they are the ones at fault" takes. Bonus points when the take suggests it is underage person under the priest's authority who generally initiates and tempts poor Humbert Humbert Father Pat.


Some of the hard-right conservative Bishops who are denouncing Pope Francis over this are saying exactly that. . .saying that this is because Pope Francis hasn't been hard enough on the LBGT population and that his refusal to defrock gay priests is what has directly lead to this.
 
2018-09-14 02:52:32 PM  

vudukungfu: Perverted populations of people with penises penetrating innocents.

Has nothing to do with being male.
It has to do with having a penis.

Or so I am told by people angry about the penis.


Penis.


And a few who lost theirs in the war, I'm told.
 
2018-09-14 02:53:49 PM  

LarryDan43: Are you Catholic? Do you have impure thoughts? Do women disgust you? Are you burdened by fantasies of being with other men or worse, young boys? Then dedicate your life to God and join the clergy.


I think one does have to account for the fact that gay people in the Catholic church used to be encouraged to join the clergy, because people of better intent never imagined they'd chase after the altar boys. Or whatever. So there is a sense of an accidental, yet plainly cause-and-effect problem with the Catholic church. And that still goes on, homosexuality isn't nearly as accepted around the world as it is in places like the UK, or Canada, or India. I mean, look at the US, or Russia.
 
2018-09-14 02:54:02 PM  

oopsboom: I'm not a psychologist, but maybe the problem is the church claims to be able to fix all these problems (such as lusting after children) if people go there and dedicate their lives to it...
but instead religion is just a load of bullshiat.
So instead it just concentrates people with those problems in one place, creating a way above average rate of people with those problems there who still act on those urges the same as anyone else with those problems.  Except they both 1. refuse to seek other help and 2. are all concentrated together in a pre-made conspiracy group.


Eh, I wish I could remember where I read this. Because it's a matter of faith, a lot, and I mean a lot can be ignored because it's supposedly being taken care of. You give yourself to the church, and you'll be fixed, even though nothing you actually do for the church leads to solving the problem you have. Everyone assumes it will be taken care of by the man upstairs. Then as you say, it concentrates the problem, because people go for the fix that doesn't work. It also pertains to the Ganges river in India. It's a holy river for the native population and the waters are known for purification. You'd think that would mean they'd keep it clean, but it more often means people think they can dump whatever they want into the river, and the river will purify it. Same with cows. Holy animals. They're allowed to wander free. Everyone assumes they'll be taken care of, but in effect, it means no one takes care of them.
It's not a problem exclusive to religion, but religion does have some of the most egregious examples.
 
2018-09-14 02:55:38 PM  

Subtonic: PLENTIFUL PIEROGIES PILED ON A PAPER PLATE!



Powdered with paprika?
 
2018-09-14 02:56:48 PM  
The problem is rape, and the covering-up of rape.
 
2018-09-14 02:59:32 PM  

starsrift: I think one does have to account for the fact that gay people in the Catholic church used to be encouraged to join the clergy, because people of better intent never imagined they'd chase after the altar boys. Or whatever.


I think that it's more that they wouldn't have to explain why they weren't getting married and fathering lots of kids.

I think that's one big reason the Church has been classically very reluctant to eliminate the celibate priesthood. . .for almost a thousand years that's been the traditional place a gay man in Catholic society could go and not have to explain why they don't date women, why they don't get married, why they don't have kids ect. . .and allowing married priests suddenly subjects priests to all that.

I think part of the problem comes from the fact that, historically, the clergy were seen as "above the law", and entitled to be tried before Church courts instead of secular courts. . .and the fact that accused priests were tried in Church canon law proceedings instead of being handed over to secular authorities is a reflection of that ancient, and outdated, attitude.

If those internal church trials had gone "We've concluded you abused minors. . .you're defrocked, and we're contacting the police to refer this for secular prosecution" instead of "We've concluded you've abused minors, you're ordered to do penance and to be transferred somewhere else." then this would have gone very, very differently.
 
2018-09-14 03:09:15 PM  
I've been pondering this, and trying to figure out why it infuriates me so much more today than it did when the scandal started to break in the 1990s.

I think I have it.

Back then, I still believed. When things started with the case against the Diocese of Dallas in 1997, it was easy to believe the party line, a few perverted priests, the Church can handle it, we'll clean this up.

Since then, my eyes have opened.

Eleven Dioceses have declared bankruptcy or Chapter 11. That includes the Archdioceses of Portland, Milwaukee, and Saint Paul-Minneapolis, as well as the Dioceses of Spokane, Tuscon, Davenport, San Diego, Fairbanks, Wilmington, and Duluth.

According to the US Council on Catholic Bishops, 6,721 priests, bishops, brothers and other clergy were accused of sexual abuse "not implausibly" or "credibly" from 1950 to 2016.  That's of 116,690 total clerics, 5.8 percent.  In places like Boston with more transparent reporting it's as high as 10 percent.  http://www.bishop-accountability.org/A​tAGlance/USCCB_Yearly_Data_on_Accused_​Priests.htm

33 priests from my Diocese have been accused of sexually abusing children.  I was taught by 2.

Of the two, one had the Order go nuclear once they found out. They turned the case over to the police, immediately removed the priest, and let the police handle it.  The priest killed himself before police came for him. I do not fault his Order in the slightest for their actions- they moved quickly, notified police, and did not attempt to handle it internally.

The other, though, is the problem.

He was molesting children in the 1970s, and the Diocese of Salt Lake City moved him to Toledo.  He then became the pastor of a grade school. I mean, damn it all to hell, seriously? Take a pedophile and give him a school full of children? I didn't think that rewarding him was their goal.

Finally he was removed as a priest, decades later. He went without punishment in a legal sense, and never served a day in prison for his crime.  He was buried as a priest as well, despite being laicized, removed from the priesthood.

I was taught as a young boy that if you were in trouble, you could go to a priest, a fireman, a policeman, or an EMT.  Now, it's firefighter and EMT. I actively avoid cops and don't trust many priests.
 
2018-09-14 03:10:34 PM  
I figured these bozos out when I was 13, young, and supple.

FYR
 
2018-09-14 03:10:53 PM  

Silverstaff: If those internal church trials had gone "We've concluded you abused minors. . .you're defrocked, and we're contacting the police to refer this for secular prosecution" instead of "We've concluded you've abused minors, you're ordered to do penance and to be transferred somewhere else." then this would have gone very, very differently.


I've seen both, and I've a lot more respect for the first. That happened to one of the priests from my high school- accused, his Order said they were getting the cops and he was removed, he hanged himself.
 
2018-09-14 03:11:28 PM  

vudukungfu: Perverted populations of people with penises penetrating innocents.

Has nothing to do with being male.
It has to do with having a penis.

Or so I am told by people angry about the penis.


Penis.


I thought it was the result of the kids dressing too sexy.
 
2018-09-14 03:13:44 PM  

Sword and Shield: Silverstaff: If those internal church trials had gone "We've concluded you abused minors. . .you're defrocked, and we're contacting the police to refer this for secular prosecution" instead of "We've concluded you've abused minors, you're ordered to do penance and to be transferred somewhere else." then this would have gone very, very differently.

I've seen both, and I've a lot more respect for the first. That happened to one of the priests from my high school- accused, his Order said they were getting the cops and he was removed, he hanged himself.


Good choice on the parasite's part.
 
2018-09-14 03:13:55 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: What could be more patriarchal than a world ruled by a group of men called Father?


*Faddah
 
2018-09-14 03:17:35 PM  

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: LarryDan43: Are you Catholic? Do you have impure thoughts? Do women disgust you? Are you burdened by fantasies of being with other men or worse, young boys? Then dedicate your life to God and join the clergy.

You joke, but having been through 18 years of Catholic education, it's not far off.

There are a lot of people with self loathing who think "if only I just throw myself into the faith, I'll be a good person."


I knew an ex-priest who realized, after the fact, the big reason he entered the priesthood was the celibacy rules.  He thought that he would never have to address the sexual damage he had endured as a kid. Just blot that piece of history away like it never happened. Needless to say, that approach doesn't work. I wonder how many others got in for similar reasons.
 
2018-09-14 03:19:23 PM  

Silverstaff: starsrift: I think one does have to account for the fact that gay people in the Catholic church used to be encouraged to join the clergy, because people of better intent never imagined they'd chase after the altar boys. Or whatever.

I think that it's more that they wouldn't have to explain why they weren't getting married and fathering lots of kids.


I couldn't find much a way to respond to this that didn't sound like some kind of "humblebrag", which is not a place I want to go. I tried typing up an answer a couple of times.

The majority of people in a church believe, or try to believe, what they preach. There's a lot of systematic naivete in churches, Roman Catholic or otherwise. Coming at it from the other end like you are is perhaps not impossible, but 9/10 times, not the way things happened.

The system of Churches are a business like any other - growth through the ranks is as dependant on patronage and show of ability as ecclesiastical knowledge. People aren't made priests because they're gay, sure. But if they have the suite of abilities to become a priest AND are gay, or "questioning", or whatever, they were very strongly encouraged to be, and in some places in the world, still are.

There are also advantages to having straight men with priest-like tendencies as congregants rather than priests. It shouldn't take long to figure out why, once you have the suggestion.
 
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