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(The Sun)   Family is outraged, OUTRAGED I tell you after their application for social housing was rejected. Fark: Because officials discovered they had blown a quarter of a million pounds of an inheritance (possible nsfw content on page)   ( thesun.co.uk) divider line
    More: Facepalm, council house, The Sun, social housing, Group Newspapers Limited, Margaret Thatcher, News of the World, Renting, wife Tania Caradeuc  
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5543 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Aug 2018 at 8:20 AM (10 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



107 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2018-08-10 06:24:30 AM  
So.... they lived in a council house and moved out when they received the inheritance - as is required.  As part of this deal, they have to fend for themselves for a certain period of time before they can reapply for another council house.

Yeah, no sympathy here.  You came into a whole bunch of money and spent it all lavishly and are now up the creek without a paddle.  Too bad.
 
2018-08-10 07:38:43 AM  
I can't fap to this.
 
2018-08-10 08:23:04 AM  
thesun.co.ukView Full Size


I...I can't even..
 
2018-08-10 08:26:56 AM  

Bslim: I...I can't even..


Makes you wonder if the husband does...
 
2018-08-10 08:27:28 AM  

SpaceyCat: So.... they lived in a council house and moved out when they received the inheritance - as is required.  As part of this deal, they have to fend for themselves for a certain period of time before they can reapply for another council house.

Yeah, no sympathy here.  You came into a whole bunch of money and spent it all lavishly and are now up the creek without a paddle.  Too bad.


Same here.

But this is what happens when you invest that heavily in a welfare state, people expect it to be a right.  I'm willing to bet they could have purchased a nice enough home (certainly better than public housing) and had plenty left over to furnish it decently but modestly, and would have only been required from then on to pay utilities and taxes on it.

But the same sort of financial acumen that leads you to having to live a life in public housing means that you likely aren't smart enough to figure that kind of thing out for yourself.  It's a cliche that people who are poor but come into a financial windfall (lottery, inheritance, lawsuit settlement) invariably blow through the money in a short amount of time.  It's a cliche because it's mostly true.
 
2018-08-10 08:29:04 AM  
I'm not positive, but I think this might be one of those articles that is written to get a negative emotional response from the reader.
 
2018-08-10 08:31:08 AM  
Talk about faces you would love to punch!
 
2018-08-10 08:31:39 AM  
I like on Star Trek that their society does have or use cash or money and I keep thinking to myself, how the hell is that even possible? How can a society function like that? It boggles the mind.
 
2018-08-10 08:32:43 AM  
Can someone explain council housing, is that like section 8 housing in the states? Cause if its like the states that is usually not the best place to live most of it is ghetto.   Reason i ask is cause i see stories about this housing on the other side of the pond and it seems like they got some pretty nice digs going on over there?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section​_​8_(housing)
 
2018-08-10 08:32:50 AM  

dittybopper: SpaceyCat: So.... they lived in a council house and moved out when they received the inheritance - as is required.  As part of this deal, they have to fend for themselves for a certain period of time before they can reapply for another council house.

Yeah, no sympathy here.  You came into a whole bunch of money and spent it all lavishly and are now up the creek without a paddle.  Too bad.

Same here.

But this is what happens when you invest that heavily in a welfare state, people expect it to be a right.  I'm willing to bet they could have purchased a nice enough home (certainly better than public housing) and had plenty left over to furnish it decently but modestly, and would have only been required from then on to pay utilities and taxes on it.

But the same sort of financial acumen that leads you to having to live a life in public housing means that you likely aren't smart enough to figure that kind of thing out for yourself.  It's a cliche that people who are poor but come into a financial windfall (lottery, inheritance, lawsuit settlement) invariably blow through the money in a short amount of time.  It's a cliche because it's mostly true.


So... poor people = dumb, rich people = smart. Got it, because there could be no possible other reason on planet Earth that someone would need help. Not defending them for squandering an inheritance, but it's a little much to criticize them for being in public housing in the first place.
 
2018-08-10 08:39:58 AM  

eas81: Can someone explain council housing, is that like section 8 housing in the states? Cause if its like the states that is usually not the best place to live most of it is ghetto.   Reason i ask is cause i see stories about this housing on the other side of the pond and it seems like they got some pretty nice digs going on over there?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_​8_(housing)


I think council housing is similar to US's public housing...I'm sure lorrys pull up every morning and deliver boxes of bangers and mash to all the residents and insist that taking the lift is better than using the stairs...The TV licensing inspector visits on a semi regular basis to make sure your TV license is up to date and you'll invite him in, have a nice cuppa and watch "Meet The Wife". Later, the vicar stops by for some tea and spotted dick and discuss the match of the day between Liverpool and Manchester. (he's a fan for Manchester, but who isn't?) The vicar leaves and its bed time now after a trip to the local pub.

Later they'll have a snog and and get down to some serious shagging, provided the Mrs is wearing that sexy black swimsuit.
 
2018-08-10 08:43:00 AM  
So, this is a textbook example of socialized support for basic needs working well and being feasible even in the USA. Right?

For some reason, I think conservatives would find outrage here about this family trying to take what they should not have needed. Better for millions to live in poverty and toil for an ownership class that takes most of the fruits of their labor than let anyone else get 'something for nothing'. Despite that being exactly what is not happening in this case.
 
2018-08-10 08:43:14 AM  
I just finished binge watching "Can't Pay? We'll Take It Away" a few days ago.

There are some interesting laws re: housing over there.
 
2018-08-10 08:45:24 AM  
Keith and Tania, who have two children, say they are able to work due to mental or physical disabilities.

are or aren't?  That sentence is on the page twice, so I guess it's right, but it doesn't make much sense.
 
2018-08-10 08:45:32 AM  

eas81: Can someone explain council housing, is that like section 8 housing in the states? Cause if its like the states that is usually not the best place to live most of it is ghetto.   Reason i ask is cause i see stories about this housing on the other side of the pond and it seems like they got some pretty nice digs going on over there?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_​8_(housing)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_​h​ousing_in_the_United_Kingdom
 
2018-08-10 08:45:38 AM  

eas81: Can someone explain council housing, is that like section 8 housing in the states? Cause if its like the states that is usually not the best place to live most of it is ghetto.   Reason i ask is cause i see stories about this housing on the other side of the pond and it seems like they got some pretty nice digs going on over there?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_​8_(housing)


There's a huge variation. Not many areas of council housing would I call a "ghetto", but some might disagree. Most are fairly nice areas, with free spaces, gardens, local stores etc,
In London and other city centres they can be on either extreme. Gardens tend to be rarer but others are apartments that millionaires would happily live in, or at least use as a pied a terre. I have a cousin who lives in a council apartment in a fashionable development, overlooking a nice London park and with a Waitrose on the ground floor. It would easily sell for a million pounds on the open market.
 
2018-08-10 08:46:04 AM  
Brit trash stories . Why do we green these?
 
2018-08-10 08:52:15 AM  
my dad's GF did the same thing, got $200k inheritance, moved out and blew all the cash, came back to him begging for a place to live.

now she is ineligible for welfare or disability etc just like these losers are ineligible for housing.

screw em.  but place the kid with someone responsible.
 
2018-08-10 08:53:49 AM  
weight-loss ops for wife Tania Caradeuc, 42

That's a hard-looking SIXTY-two. JFC. And she used to be fat too?!?!?!?!! WTF, UK?
 
2018-08-10 08:54:22 AM  
Trivia:

Mid 1970's...
Punk bands like Sex Pistols and the Clash, all or most members came from city "council housing."

Unemployment and class war was all around. Tall concrete sterile buildings in a sea of gray, there was was no work, it was destitute...

"there was nothing to do, it was like a sea of hopelessness. But I had hope."  --Joe Strummer

"There was no future. I had to write my own future."  --Sid Vicious
 
2018-08-10 08:56:04 AM  

meatofmystery: Brit trash stories . Why do we green these?


Because I'm getting sick of reading US trash stories. Time to see what's happening "across the pond"

Plus, its great seeing we're not the only nation with trash...
 
2018-08-10 08:56:09 AM  

Bslim: [thesun.co.uk image 721x960]

I...I can't even..

"The last time she saw 42 was 1942."

 
2018-08-10 08:58:08 AM  

Bslim: [thesun.co.uk image 721x960]

I...I can't even..


Why are the husband's moobs so big?

Oh .... British hot .... I see ..... nevermind.
 
2018-08-10 09:03:14 AM  

meatofmystery: Brit trash stories . Why do we green these?


Because the Kim kardashian threads over in entertainment are so much better..
 
2018-08-10 09:08:36 AM  

steklo: I like on Star Trek that their society does have or use cash or money and I keep thinking to myself, how the hell is that even possible? How can a society function like that? It boggles the mind.


Replicators.
 
2018-08-10 09:09:37 AM  

Deep Contact: Replicators.


Well, that totally makes sense now. Great. Now I can get some sleep tonight.

Thanks, live long and prosper, too...
 
2018-08-10 09:13:30 AM  

steklo: eas81: Can someone explain council housing, is that like section 8 housing in the states? Cause if its like the states that is usually not the best place to live most of it is ghetto.   Reason i ask is cause i see stories about this housing on the other side of the pond and it seems like they got some pretty nice digs going on over there?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_​8_(housing)

I think council housing is similar to US's public housing...I'm sure lorrys pull up every morning and deliver boxes of bangers and mash to all the residents and insist that taking the lift is better than using the stairs...The TV licensing inspector visits on a semi regular basis to make sure your TV license is up to date and you'll invite him in, have a nice cuppa and watch "Meet The Wife". Later, the vicar stops by for some tea and spotted dick and discuss the match of the day between Liverpool and Manchester. (he's a fan for Manchester, but who isn't?) The vicar leaves and its bed time now after a trip to the local pub.

Later they'll have a snog and and get down to some serious shagging, provided the Mrs is wearing that sexy black swimsuit.


Two top-flight teams in Liverpool (but only one has Liverpool in the name so that's a pass) ...but "Manchester"? Which one? City or United? In the last ten years, both have won the championship three times.

What you did there was worse than having someone pretend to be American talking about going to see "New York" in the baseball. Not the Mets, not the Yankees, just "New York". At least people will think you went to Yankee Stadium because they're the Goliath but that doesn't work with the Mancunian teams.
 
2018-08-10 09:14:51 AM  
Man. Goatman.:
So... poor people = dumb, rich people = smart. Got it, because there could be no possible other reason on planet Earth that someone would need help. Not defending them for squandering an inheritance, but it's a little much to criticize them for being in public housing in the first place.

In a certain sense, yes.  There is definitely a correlation between IQ (and/or academic achievement) and socioeconomic status:

https://steinhardt.nyu.edu/scmsAdmin/​m​edia/users/lec321/Sirin_Articles/Sirin​_2005.pdf

http://www.emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-co​n​tent/uploads/Intelligence-and-socioeco​nomic-success-A-meta-analytic-review-o​f-longitudinal-research.pdf

Also, students with higher IQ/academic achievement  tend to end up with better life outcomes than students from the same socioeconomic strata but with lower IQ/academic achievement.

In addition to IQ predicting future socioeconomic status, present socioeconomic status predicts later success to a large degree.  This is shown by comparing children born to poor parents but adopted by people in a higher status having higher measured IQs than their siblings that weren't adopted.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/66​3​634
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/​v​340/n6234/abs/340552a0.html
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/201​5​/03/18/1417106112.abstract

I can't understand why this sort of thing is so controversial.  First of all, there is a genetic component.  Some people are taller because their parents were taller.  Some people have blue eyes.  Some people have a higher innate capacity for intelligence.  But that doesn't

Then, of course, you've got culture.  Managing money is a learned skill, like any other.  It's one of the things you learn largely from your parents, and less so from your peers and from your education.  If your parents are good at managing their money, there is a very high likelihood that you'll learn the same skills.  If your parents aren't good at it, then you likely won't learn those skills.

There are always exceptions to every rule, of course, and this isn't to say that a person born in poverty is doomed to live a life of poverty, just that's it's likely to happen even if they get an economic windfall.

And conversely, a person who is born into privilege is unlikely to end up in a life of poverty when faced with an economic downturn, absent some other issue like substance abuse or mental illness.

In short, socioeconomic status is correlated to IQ for reasons related to both genetics and to the developmental environment of the individual.

Why this is controversial I have no idea.
 
2018-08-10 09:17:55 AM  

Jackpot777: What you did there was worse than having someone pretend to be American talking about going to see "New York" in the baseball.


As a New Yorker, I can totally understand your point. Yes, there is more than one Manchester soccer team (or football team) and I was going to actually say United, but omitted it in error.

Carry on good sir, carry on...
 
2018-08-10 09:20:43 AM  

steklo: As a New Yorker, I can totally understand your point. Yes, there is more than one Manchester soccer team (or football team) and I was going to actually say United, but omitted it in error.

Carry on good sir, carry on...


I'll forgive you if you're a Yankees fan, or have something positive to say about Stanton's homer last night.
 
2018-08-10 09:24:00 AM  

GanjSmokr: I just finished binge watching "Can't Pay? We'll Take It Away" a few days ago.

There are some interesting laws re: housing over there.


Yeah, I did the same a few months ago based on a post here that referenced it. One point that seems to come up over and over again is that the local housing councils instruct people who get eviction notices to stay put until the bailiffs show up to physically put them out - otherwise they're considered "voluntarily homeless" and ineligible for council housing. Which means that families who would be willing to leave have to go through the pain and embarrassment of an eviction, or they can't get other housing.
 
2018-08-10 09:26:32 AM  

Jackpot777: I'll forgive you if you're a Yankees fan, or have something positive to say about Stanton's homer last night.


Actually, I don't follow any sports but I grew up in a house-hold of Yankee fans. My cousin was a "bat-boy" for them back in the late 70's too. So, I've got that going for me...

Positive of Stanton's homer last night? Yes, yes I am.
 
2018-08-10 09:27:27 AM  

Man. Goatman.: dittybopper: SpaceyCat: So.... they lived in a council house and moved out when they received the inheritance - as is required.  As part of this deal, they have to fend for themselves for a certain period of time before they can reapply for another council house.

Yeah, no sympathy here.  You came into a whole bunch of money and spent it all lavishly and are now up the creek without a paddle.  Too bad.

Same here.

But this is what happens when you invest that heavily in a welfare state, people expect it to be a right.  I'm willing to bet they could have purchased a nice enough home (certainly better than public housing) and had plenty left over to furnish it decently but modestly, and would have only been required from then on to pay utilities and taxes on it.

But the same sort of financial acumen that leads you to having to live a life in public housing means that you likely aren't smart enough to figure that kind of thing out for yourself.  It's a cliche that people who are poor but come into a financial windfall (lottery, inheritance, lawsuit settlement) invariably blow through the money in a short amount of time.  It's a cliche because it's mostly true.

So... poor people = dumb, rich people = smart. Got it, because there could be no possible other reason on planet Earth that someone would need help. Not defending them for squandering an inheritance, but it's a little much to criticize them for being in public housing in the first place.


Only children or the stupid see things as two dimensional.
They said "likely", not that it's an absolute which you seem to think.
And yes, things happen to people, but generally it's people that aren't smart with money that end up there.
 
2018-08-10 09:34:51 AM  
My friend lives in Guernsey, which is not part of the UK (it is a Crown Protectorate, responsible for its own administration, taxes, government etc.)

The rules on States housing are more restrictive than in the UK. The couple were NOT required to move out of their original house due to the inheritance; they merely would have had to pay the full rent (instead of the discounted rent they paid prior to receiving the cash).
However, they are currently unable to qualify for States housing due to the inheritance which they've managed to spunk on nothing.
 
2018-08-10 09:34:53 AM  
"The dad-of-two admits he bought cars, moved to a nicer rented house, and paid for pricey weight-loss ops for wife Tania Caradeuc, 42 when they inherited the cash in 2015. "
Half of that money could have gone in to savings/investing. The other half BUY a home instead of rent. Oh well they dug their own hole.
 
TWX
2018-08-10 09:34:56 AM  

dittybopper: Man. Goatman.:
So... poor people = dumb, rich people = smart. Got it, because there could be no possible other reason on planet Earth that someone would need help. Not defending them for squandering an inheritance, but it's a little much to criticize them for being in public housing in the first place.

In a certain sense, yes.  There is definitely a correlation between IQ (and/or academic achievement) and socioeconomic status:


Too much granular detail.

On average, those who make poor decisions don't make as much money as those who make good decisions. Therefore, those who make poor decisions are more likely to have less income. Again, on average, the poorer the decision-making skills, the greater the likelihood of ending up with even less money available for housing.

There are, of course, statistical outliers. There are people that are rich and make poor decisions but haven't managed to make poor decisions that have left them without means, and there are people that generally make good decisions but have either started out with essentially nothing so they've had nothing to build-on, or else outside circumstances have harmed them regardless of their own decisions.

I suppose this is why, while my politics generally fall to the left of the political spectrum, I'm against things like a Universal Basic Income, and why I have real qualms about free and subsidized housing. In short, these concerns revolve around inflation for UBI, and around the lack of perception of value for things that are free or very inexpensive to the recipient.

For inflation, when Cash for Clunkers was in place, suddenly the used-car market got all messed up, because now most used cars were worth the $4500 that the program paid for cars, because they were usable as trade. This meant the buying-power for purchasing used cars by the poor evaporated overnight, for the duration of the program at least. UBI could threaten to do that for all purchases, because if everyone knows that everyone has $X basic income, suddenly prices raise to profit off of $X. I would much rather see tax breaks at the bottom end of the income spectrum instead.

And it doesn't take a genius to see what has become of so many public housing projects throughout the world. In the United States they're even pejoratively referred to as "The Projects". Housing subsidy needs to be much more carefully considered, and frankly, not concentrated into specific buildings or neighborhoods. It also needs to be confidential, and probably best works where even landlords don't know if a tenant is on assistance.
 
2018-08-10 09:37:56 AM  

dittybopper: In short, socioeconomic status is correlated to IQ for reasons related to both genetics and to the developmental environment of the individual.

Why this is controversial I have no idea.


It goes against the very idea of equality that western societies are built upon?

It's also just replacing "black/white" with "poor/rich" in the statement "White people are genetically/socioeconomically better than black people"
 
2018-08-10 09:38:38 AM  
hey look.  Brits have hillbillies too
 
2018-08-10 09:45:22 AM  

dittybopper: SpaceyCat: So.... they lived in a council house and moved out when they received the inheritance - as is required.  As part of this deal, they have to fend for themselves for a certain period of time before they can reapply for another council house.

Yeah, no sympathy here.  You came into a whole bunch of money and spent it all lavishly and are now up the creek without a paddle.  Too bad.

Same here.

But this is what happens when you invest that heavily in a welfare state, people expect it to be a right.  I'm willing to bet they could have purchased a nice enough home (certainly better than public housing) and had plenty left over to furnish it decently but modestly, and would have only been required from then on to pay utilities and taxes on it.

But the same sort of financial acumen that leads you to having to live a life in public housing means that you likely aren't smart enough to figure that kind of thing out for yourself.  It's a cliche that people who are poor but come into a financial windfall (lottery, inheritance, lawsuit settlement) invariably blow through the money in a short amount of time.  It's a cliche because it's mostly true.


If one should win, get a lawyer, form an immediate trust, start a retirement investment fund immediately. Then live as normal as possible.
 
2018-08-10 09:46:35 AM  
What a kerfuffle they've found themselves in.
 
2018-08-10 09:48:40 AM  

eas81: Can someone explain council housing, is that like section 8 housing in the states? Cause if its like the states that is usually not the best place to live most of it is ghetto.   Reason i ask is cause i see stories about this housing on the other side of the pond and it seems like they got some pretty nice digs going on over there?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_​8_(housing)


There will always be klingers.
 
2018-08-10 09:50:26 AM  

Nimbull: Half of that money could have gone in to savings/investing. The other half BUY a home instead of rent. Oh well they dug their own hole.


No sympathy from me, however half of £250k would not buy much house in Guernsey. Would struggle to get a 1-bed flat for that actually
 
2018-08-10 10:02:02 AM  
I thought healthcare, including stuff like WLS, was covered there. No, I'm not going to RTFA to find out.
 
2018-08-10 10:12:54 AM  
Let's not jump to conclusions.  The story says they blew the money on cars.  That could just mean they made a bad investment.  Probably shorted Tesla.
 
2018-08-10 10:20:28 AM  
Gee....it's almost as if giving poor people who make terrible decisions more money doesn't end their poverty.

Take note, progressives.
 
2018-08-10 10:20:30 AM  
Shoulda bought bootstraps
 
2018-08-10 10:21:09 AM  
A quarter of a million dollars wouldn't even pay for half my home.
 
2018-08-10 10:21:53 AM  

TWX: I would much rather see tax breaks at the bottom end of the income spectrum instead.


You can't cut taxes on money that doesn't exist.If you are going to give the lowest bracket a refund because their income is so low/nonexistent that they qualify for negative taxes, you've backed yourself into a UBI anyway.

There's nothing wrong with a UBI, and any modern nation has the GDP to support one. The truth is the United States already has a form of UBI for old people tied to what they earned in their working years, and capped with a maximum benefit. That fund would be completely solvent if the politicians had kept their greedy paws out of the cookie jar and treated capital gains like a payroll check.

While I understand the emotional satisfaction that comes from seeing fools suffer - on the whole what they had before doesn't matter. What they have now is the issue, and why they need support. Just remember that while some may be reveling in their suffering, they have a kid who had bugger all to do with it who's going to suffer too.

Help from the government is there to keep the lowest of the low from being an ever bigger detriment to society. AKA not so desperate they resort robbing and killing to get by. When you look at it through that lens, it's clear that it doesn't matter how someone sank that low, it just matters that they did.
 
2018-08-10 10:26:17 AM  
There needs to be some sort of financial counseling mandatory any time someone comes into a large sum of money.  (Require it as a condition of getting to deduct the first $5 million or whatever it is from the inheritance tax.)

If you're getting kicked out of Section 8 housing because you got $250K, then you need to either buy a house or stick it in a very safe investment, spend very little of it, and earmark it for rent.  Ideally, you'd have a job where you're earning close to enough money to make ends meet and you can let the $250K grow a bit.
 
2018-08-10 10:29:18 AM  

Nogale: GanjSmokr: I just finished binge watching "Can't Pay? We'll Take It Away" a few days ago.

There are some interesting laws re: housing over there.

Yeah, I did the same a few months ago based on a post here that referenced it. One point that seems to come up over and over again is that the local housing councils instruct people who get eviction notices to stay put until the bailiffs show up to physically put them out - otherwise they're considered "voluntarily homeless" and ineligible for council housing. Which means that families who would be willing to leave have to go through the pain and embarrassment of an eviction, or they can't get other housing.


If you leave before getting the eviction notice then you would be making yourself voluntarily homeless, if you leave after getting the notice you should be shiny. This only really applies to council tenants in a private let so getting local housing allowance. Councils do tend to tell people to stay in the property until the bailiffs are about to knock though, I suspect they are buying time to get emergency accommodation ready, but a lots of people would stay to the bitter end anyway probably hoping for a change of mind from the landlord. Things change if your a council tenant in a council house or a tenant in a housing association property. Thing also change depending on the local authority or housing association, somebodies experience in Liverpool will not be the same for similar circumstances in Manchester.
 
2018-08-10 10:36:08 AM  

IDisposable: There needs to be some sort of financial counseling mandatory any time someone comes into a large sum of money.  (Require it as a condition of getting to deduct the first $5 million or whatever it is from the inheritance tax.)


I'd go a step further: there should be counseling and maybe even a personal case worker assigned to you and your family if you go on any form of government assistance. Welfare, housing, food stamps - let's analyze what's going on, make sure the assistance isn't being spent frivolously, and get them further help for the long term (education, job training, etc).
 
2018-08-10 10:37:56 AM  

SBinRR: I'm not positive, but I think this might be one of those articles that is written to get a negative emotional response from the reader.


I'm feeling pretty good about the fact that they have to fend for themselves...but then again, they are fending for themselves using disability payments they probably don't deserve.
 
2018-08-10 10:40:13 AM  

steklo: Trivia:

Mid 1970's...
Punk bands like Sex Pistols and the Clash, all or most members came from city "council housing."

Unemployment and class war was all around. Tall concrete sterile buildings in a sea of gray, there was was no work, it was destitute...

"there was nothing to do, it was like a sea of hopelessness. But I had hope."  --Joe Strummer

"There was no future. I had to write my own future."  --Sid Vicious


Write his own future?

Perhaps he should have tried for a novel instead of a short story.
 
2018-08-10 10:43:01 AM  

trialpha: dittybopper: In short, socioeconomic status is correlated to IQ for reasons related to both genetics and to the developmental environment of the individual.

Why this is controversial I have no idea.

It goes against the very idea of equality that western societies are built upon?

It's also just replacing "black/white" with "poor/rich" in the statement "White people are genetically/socioeconomically better than black people"


Western society was never founded on the idea that people with low IQs should live identical lifestyles to those people with high IQs.

It was founded on the idea of rights, limited government, and fair treatment under the law.
 
2018-08-10 10:44:32 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: A quarter of a million dollars wouldn't even pay for half my home.


Username does not check out.

Average home price in the USA is just over $200k
 
2018-08-10 10:52:53 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: A quarter of a million dollars wouldn't even pay for half my home.


A hundred dollars? A hundred dollars wouldn't even buy me a pair of shoes.
 
2018-08-10 11:05:42 AM  

gar1013: Write his own future?


Well he was in a successful punk band. He manged to leave the council flats and went on to become an international star. Not sure what happened after that. Maybe hes on their National retirement plan now, back at the council estates...?
 
2018-08-10 11:08:27 AM  

SpaceyCat: So.... they lived in a council house and moved out when they received the inheritance - as is required.  As part of this deal, they have to fend for themselves for a certain period of time before they can reapply for another council house.

Yeah, no sympathy here.  You came into a whole bunch of money and spent it all lavishly and are now up the creek without a paddle.  Too bad.


But some kind hearted Farkers will explain that they still need help after all and that tax dollars should be spent to do it. We're trying to run a society here and also this and other related events never happen.
 
2018-08-10 11:09:00 AM  

Bslim: [thesun.co.uk image 721x960]

I...I can't even..


It's the Galuf Gobble Girl!
 
TWX
2018-08-10 11:12:16 AM  

Boudyro: TWX: I would much rather see tax breaks at the bottom end of the income spectrum instead.

You can't cut taxes on money that doesn't exist.If you are going to give the lowest bracket a refund because their income is so low/nonexistent that they qualify for negative taxes, you've backed yourself into a UBI anyway.

There's nothing wrong with a UBI, and any modern nation has the GDP to support one. The truth is the United States already has a form of UBI for old people tied to what they earned in their working years, and capped with a maximum benefit. That fund would be completely solvent if the politicians had kept their greedy paws out of the cookie jar and treated capital gains like a payroll check.

While I understand the emotional satisfaction that comes from seeing fools suffer - on the whole what they had before doesn't matter. What they have now is the issue, and why they need support. Just remember that while some may be reveling in their suffering, they have a kid who had bugger all to do with it who's going to suffer too.

Help from the government is there to keep the lowest of the low from being an ever bigger detriment to society. AKA not so desperate they resort robbing and killing to get by. When you look at it through that lens, it's clear that it doesn't matter how someone sank that low, it just matters that they did.


Social Security is not Universal, as not every household receives it. Only qualifying retirees over a certain age receive it, and by qualifying, those who worked jobs that paid into it. It's also limited to average of the last fifteen to twenty years of someone's life after they've worked forty years, which prevents it from 100% contributing to inflation.

I still maintain, if every household got free money, and roughly the same free money, then the price of basic goods would rise proportional to that free money. It has to be contained to a subset, and frankly, it needs to be something that most people aren't happy with, so that most people on it will look to improve their circumstances above what they receive while on assistance.

You bring up suffering, but misfortune is what causes people to change themselves. If people are comfortable then they have no reason to make that change.
 
2018-08-10 11:12:22 AM  

steklo: I like on Star Trek that their society does have or use cash or money and I keep thinking to myself, how the hell is that even possible? How can a society function like that? It boggles the mind.


Everyone you see on Star Trek working as a redshirt was given a choice between doing hard time mining on a lethal penal colony for their deviated xenopedophilia and other dangerous perversions or doing a five year hitch with Starfleet. There is no other explanation for the number of people willing to swab the holodeck and die ignobly if money is not necessary.
 
2018-08-10 11:15:47 AM  
I love the lack of sympathy I'm seeing here.  So, you expect people with a proven inability to handle money to suddenly be financially savvy when given a large winfall with no coincidental training in financial management? And when they predictably are unable to adapt to their sudden fortunes, you can proudly smugly denounce them as bad people.

This is the same thing we see with sports prodigies that get huge contracts and end up broke.  Take a person that has never been able to earn money as an amateur, and never had significant funds to manage then give them their entire lifetime income in 4-5 short years.  Then laugh at them when these people that were never in a position to learn to handle finances predictably end up not handling their finances well.
 
2018-08-10 11:15:59 AM  

steklo: I like on Star Trek that their society does have or use cash or money and I keep thinking to myself, how the hell is that even possible? How can a society function like that? It boggles the mind.


Post scarcity economy.
 
2018-08-10 11:18:14 AM  

steklo: Trivia:

Mid 1970's...
Punk bands like Sex Pistols and the Clash, all or most members came from city "council housing."

Unemployment and class war was all around. Tall concrete sterile buildings in a sea of gray, there was was no work, it was destitute...

"there was nothing to do, it was like a sea of hopelessness. But I had hope."  --Joe Strummer

"There was no future. I had to write my own future."  --Sid Vicious


Joe Strummer's father was a diplomat.
 
TWX
2018-08-10 11:18:45 AM  

Fano: steklo: I like on Star Trek that their society does have or use cash or money and I keep thinking to myself, how the hell is that even possible? How can a society function like that? It boggles the mind.

Everyone you see on Star Trek working as a redshirt was given a choice between doing hard time mining on a lethal penal colony for their deviated xenopedophilia and other dangerous perversions or doing a five year hitch with Starfleet. There is no other explanation for the number of people willing to swab the holodeck and die ignobly if money is not necessary.


No one has to swab the holodeck, it was clearly explained by Riker in ST:TNG season 2, episode 18, "Up The Long Ladder," that the ship cleans itself.
 
2018-08-10 11:19:51 AM  

steklo: gar1013: Write his own future?

Well he was in a successful punk band. He manged to leave the council flats and went on to become an international star. Not sure what happened after that. Maybe hes on their National retirement plan now, back at the council estates...?


And whatever happened to that nice girl...what was her name? Nancy? Yeah, that's it. Nancy.
 
2018-08-10 11:20:23 AM  

TWX: Fano: steklo: I like on Star Trek that their society does have or use cash or money and I keep thinking to myself, how the hell is that even possible? How can a society function like that? It boggles the mind.

Everyone you see on Star Trek working as a redshirt was given a choice between doing hard time mining on a lethal penal colony for their deviated xenopedophilia and other dangerous perversions or doing a five year hitch with Starfleet. There is no other explanation for the number of people willing to swab the holodeck and die ignobly if money is not necessary.

No one has to swab the holodeck, it was clearly explained by Riker in ST:TNG season 2, episode 18, "Up The Long Ladder," that the ship cleans itself.


So Ensign Ricky is licking up the semen of his own volition?
 
TWX
2018-08-10 11:23:18 AM  

Fano: TWX: Fano: steklo: I like on Star Trek that their society does have or use cash or money and I keep thinking to myself, how the hell is that even possible? How can a society function like that? It boggles the mind.

Everyone you see on Star Trek working as a redshirt was given a choice between doing hard time mining on a lethal penal colony for their deviated xenopedophilia and other dangerous perversions or doing a five year hitch with Starfleet. There is no other explanation for the number of people willing to swab the holodeck and die ignobly if money is not necessary.

No one has to swab the holodeck, it was clearly explained by Riker in ST:TNG season 2, episode 18, "Up The Long Ladder," that the ship cleans itself.

So Ensign Ricky is licking up the semen of his own volition?


To each their own.
 
TWX
2018-08-10 11:32:31 AM  

gretzkyscores: Gee....it's almost as if giving poor people who make terrible decisions more money doesn't end their poverty.

Take note, progressives.


Noted. Been noted for a long time actually.

On the other hand, progressive income taxes upon the wealthy doesn't mean that all progressives want to turn around and give cash to the poor. A lot of progressives would rather that such taxed money be spent on things that serve just about everyone, and when that money is spent on a disadvantaged group, it's done in a safety-net fashion, not a permanent-lifestyle fashion.

Frankly I don't want to see anyone "on the dole," and I don't want to see people living homeless. For those that are able-bodied, I want them to work, and if they don't have jobs, I want the act of looking for a job to be their full-time job. I want government-funded, meaning taxpayer-funded, programs for the unemployed to reflect this, to help those that will help themselves and at least try. I also want those programs to acknowledge that some regions might not have the work available, and perhaps it is necessary to relocate.

When an organism finds its environment unsuited to itself, it can do one of three things. It can move, it can adapt, or it can die. As a society we don't like it when people die, so we're left with moving or adapting. Figure out how to make that happen.
 
2018-08-10 11:44:29 AM  

TWX: it was clearly explained by Riker in ST:TNG season 2, episode 18, "Up The Long Ladder," that the ship cleans itself.


Well - good for the bloody ship.
 
2018-08-10 11:47:28 AM  
They have a pool. I'll be they have a refrigerator too.

Let this be a lesson to anyone who goes bankrupt after once having had a decent job and no medical bills.
 
2018-08-10 11:53:04 AM  
I manage social housing so I've got a few similar stories. The best was a guy in his 60s who lived in a senior's social housing building. He was a complete asshole to everyone: Staff, neighbors, visitors, family. His mom lived in the same building as a market tenant. She wasn't wealthy but she had some savings. When she died he inherited everything including about $75,000. He was concerned that he would lose his rent geared to income because of the inheritance (he wouldn't have, we'd have only included the interest on the money in his rent calculation) so he spent it all immediately: Electronics, a bike (even though he was handicapped and couldn't walk), jewelry, etc.

He died a couple of years later. When we contacted his family about the contents of his apartment they told me to "get rid of everything". There was a lot of expensive things in there so I double checked. His daughter said "the only thing I ever wanted from my father was the call from the hospital telling me he's dead. Do whatever you want with his stuff: Keep it, sell it, give it away. I want nothing to do with any of it."

I kept a few things myself, but gave most of it away to other tenants in the building including a power scooter, power wheel chair, Hoya lift, etc.
 
2018-08-10 11:55:35 AM  
They live on Guernsey.
gov.ggView Full Size

What do they need cars for?
 
2018-08-10 11:59:58 AM  

steklo: I like on Star Trek that their society does have or use cash or money and I keep thinking to myself, how the hell is that even possible? How can a society function like that? It boggles the mind.


Free housing and replicator technology?

Still leaves the question of why anyone would want a job if there isn't money in it.
 
2018-08-10 12:10:01 PM  

Jackpot777: steklo: eas81: Can someone explain council housing, is that like section 8 housing in the states? Cause if its like the states that is usually not the best place to live most of it is ghetto.   Reason i ask is cause i see stories about this housing on the other side of the pond and it seems like they got some pretty nice digs going on over there?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_​8_(housing)

I think council housing is similar to US's public housing...I'm sure lorrys pull up every morning and deliver boxes of bangers and mash to all the residents and insist that taking the lift is better than using the stairs...The TV licensing inspector visits on a semi regular basis to make sure your TV license is up to date and you'll invite him in, have a nice cuppa and watch "Meet The Wife". Later, the vicar stops by for some tea and spotted dick and discuss the match of the day between Liverpool and Manchester. (he's a fan for Manchester, but who isn't?) The vicar leaves and its bed time now after a trip to the local pub.

Later they'll have a snog and and get down to some serious shagging, provided the Mrs is wearing that sexy black swimsuit.

Two top-flight teams in Liverpool (but only one has Liverpool in the name so that's a pass) ...but "Manchester"? Which one? City or United? In the last ten years, both have won the championship three times.

What you did there was worse than having someone pretend to be American talking about going to see "New York" in the baseball. Not the Mets, not the Yankees, just "New York". At least people will think you went to Yankee Stadium because they're the Goliath but that doesn't work with the Mancunian teams.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0ms_b_N​H​3P4
 
2018-08-10 12:10:02 PM  

RoomFullOfMonkeys: steklo: I like on Star Trek that their society does have or use cash or money and I keep thinking to myself, how the hell is that even possible? How can a society function like that? It boggles the mind.

Free housing and replicator technology?

Still leaves the question of why anyone would want a job if there isn't money in it.


Because they wanted something to do.
Sisko's dad had his little restaurant because he liked cooking for people.
 
2018-08-10 12:10:03 PM  

gar1013: Yeah, that's it. Nancy.


i.pinimg.comView Full Size


yeah...I hear ya....Sid and Nancy...

Never said he was a roll model....I don't even care for the Sex Pistols.
 
2018-08-10 12:15:14 PM  

Bslim: [thesun.co.uk image 721x960]

I...I can't even..


Was the weight loss surgery on her head?
 
2018-08-10 12:21:18 PM  

steklo: I like on Star Trek that their society does have or use cash or money and I keep thinking to myself, how the hell is that even possible? How can a society function like that? It boggles the mind.


It's called fiction for a reason
 
2018-08-10 12:23:17 PM  

Alwysadydrmr: It's called science fiction for a reason



yes, yes it is.
 
2018-08-10 12:28:28 PM  

Jackpot777: What you did there was worse than having someone pretend to be American talking about going to see "New York" in the baseball. Not the Mets, not the Yankees, just "New York".


The ny Mets are my favorite squadron.
Youtube shgze3yuCyA
 
2018-08-10 12:35:32 PM  

Fano: SpaceyCat: So.... they lived in a council house and moved out when they received the inheritance - as is required.  As part of this deal, they have to fend for themselves for a certain period of time before they can reapply for another council house.

Yeah, no sympathy here.  You came into a whole bunch of money and spent it all lavishly and are now up the creek without a paddle.  Too bad.

But some kind hearted Farkers will explain that they still need help after all and that tax dollars should be spent to do it. We're trying to run a society here and also this and other related events never happen.


Some people are. Others are trying for equality of opportunity rather than equality of condition. The latter has been tried repeatedly and has never ended well for the people.
 
2018-08-10 12:36:38 PM  
This makes me think of my aunt who blew the $5 mil she got after my uncle died. It took her a few years, but she managed. Good thing for her my cousin is a doctor and willing to support her. That side of the family it's a big miss with money management skills. The only ones who came out successful have spouses that could teach them better skills. It is absolutely a learned skill.
 
2018-08-10 12:46:44 PM  

Tricky Chicken: I love the lack of sympathy I'm seeing here.  So, you expect people with a proven inability to handle money to suddenly be financially savvy when given a large winfall with no coincidental training in financial management? And when they predictably are unable to adapt to their sudden fortunes, you can proudly smugly denounce them as bad people.

This is the same thing we see with sports prodigies that get huge contracts and end up broke.  Take a person that has never been able to earn money as an amateur, and never had significant funds to manage then give them their entire lifetime income in 4-5 short years.  Then laugh at them when these people that were never in a position to learn to handle finances predictably end up not handling their finances well.


Not bad people, but, "WTF? That was dumb..." people.

My mom died with an OK whole life insurance policy, and my family sold the old restaurant building and plot. My parents made about 10 bucks an hour during their working lives. Both of them. I work, and so does my wife. About 12-14 bucks an hour. I'm figuring that my family, wife and I, will retire around 60 in around 24 years as familial millionaires as long as I stay good with my dad, and I am taking great care of him. He's awesome.

I was a shiatheel burden in my 20s who was unemployed and maxed out my credit card on movie nights and sushi with my buddies.

Don't buy a Ferrari. Invest that money, and watch the compounding interest make you rich. Do the calculations. Farking math, folks. Do you want a boat, or can you wait a few years?

Compounding interest.
 
2018-08-10 12:56:51 PM  

Alwysadydrmr: This makes me think of my aunt who blew the $5 mil she got after my uncle died. It took her a few years, but she managed. Good thing for her my cousin is a doctor and willing to support her. That side of the family it's a big miss with money management skills. The only ones who came out successful have spouses that could teach them better skills. It is absolutely a learned skill.


While I was still doing delivery driving, just a couple years ago, when I was still a poor person with my mom still alive, limited funds, just made the down payment on a house with my wife, and totally worried about funds, and a decrepit restaurant building still sitting there, I listened to Dave Ramsey's talk radio show.

That SOB turned my life around. It's not hard to learn. It's easier than high school algebra, and yet I see rent-to-own centers and people financing sweet rimz for their cars and financing pedigree dogs and I'm shaking my head.
 
2018-08-10 01:10:31 PM  

gar1013: Western society was never founded on the idea that people with low IQs should live identical lifestyles to those people with high IQs.


But this wasn't about IQ. It was about poor people. You're making the same mistake, that poor == low IQ, or rich == high IQ.

Try that with race, and see how far it gets you.
 
2018-08-10 01:14:57 PM  

steklo: I like on Star Trek that their society does have or use cash or money and I keep thinking to myself, how the hell is that even possible? How can a society function like that? It boggles the mind.


To be fair, the invention of the replicator made scarcity (at least for everyday goods) a thing of the past.
Also, there is currency in the Star Trek universe, but within the Federation, it is primarily in the form of bartering with durable goods that cannot be replicated (or at least are difficult to replicate).
 
2018-08-10 01:15:57 PM  

trialpha: gar1013: Western society was never founded on the idea that people with low IQs should live identical lifestyles to those people with high IQs.

But this wasn't about IQ. It was about poor people. You're making the same mistake, that poor == low IQ, or rich == high IQ.

Try that with race, and see how far it gets you.


I think that the largest improvement would be to have a financial management class in high school. It's not about IQ. It's if you know about how to save money, and if you have some money, it's about where to put it, and how not to spend all of it. It took me a decade and a half to learn my lessons and finally wise up.

I didn't really need to know Avogadro's number in HS.

I needed to learn real life shiat.
 
TWX
2018-08-10 01:32:34 PM  

Wizzbang: trialpha: gar1013: Western society was never founded on the idea that people with low IQs should live identical lifestyles to those people with high IQs.

But this wasn't about IQ. It was about poor people. You're making the same mistake, that poor == low IQ, or rich == high IQ.

Try that with race, and see how far it gets you.

I think that the largest improvement would be to have a financial management class in high school. It's not about IQ. It's if you know about how to save money, and if you have some money, it's about where to put it, and how not to spend all of it. It took me a decade and a half to learn my lessons and finally wise up.

I didn't really need to know Avogadro's number in HS.

I needed to learn real life shiat.


See, I learned Avogadro's Number, and I learned not to spend all of the money I made.

Unfortunately if everyone saved, it hurt the economy, because unfortunately, people spending everything they make is good for everyone else. It's not as bad as the money simply being put into a safe or stuffed under a mattress, but money often gets spent many-times-over through the course of a year, it's called the Velocity of Money. When it's spent through bank-operated investment or projects it doesn't necessarily change hands as repeatedly as it does at the lower end of private-party transactions.

The rich are actually somewhat bad for the economy in that sense, they do not spend the money they have as quickly, and it's probably invested in things that don't result in its circulation being as fast and widespread.
 
2018-08-10 01:51:03 PM  

TWX: I still maintain, if every household got free money, and roughly the same free money, then the price of basic goods would rise proportional to that free money. It has to be contained to a subset, and frankly, it needs to be something that most people aren't happy with, so that most people on it will look to improve their circumstances above what they receive while on assistance.


I fundamentally disagree. The costs of goods and services don't necessarily rise with other income increases, Alaska for example hasn't become an inflationary hellscape. Non-garbage housing may go up as demand would increase faster than we can meet, but the race to the bottom for pricing of other goods would continue unabated. Even if it did increase across the board inflation there are multiple other avenues to keep inflation down. Where as there's only one tried and true way to make poor people less poor - get them more money. Ideally we do that with education and fair economic opportunities, making a UBI unnecessary. But since we are doing the dumb thing and embracing crony capitalism and corporate welfare yet again that leaves scraping a wad of cash off the top and giving it to the bottom tiers of the economy so it can once again cycle it back to the top.

TWX: Social Security is not Universal, as not every household receives it. Only qualifying retirees over a certain age receive it, and by qualifying, those who worked jobs that paid into it. It's also limited to average of the last fifteen to twenty years of someone's life after they've worked forty years, which prevents it from 100% contributing to inflation.


I said it was a form of UBI and it is. Because almost everyone works, not to mention you've got disability for the folks who can't work.


Do I think a UBI would make all right with the world, and everyone would become a Star Trek paragon, only interested in bettering themselves? No. But what it would do is keep people from starving and being homeless. With that settled we can work on the other problems.
 
2018-08-10 02:09:48 PM  

Wizzbang: Tricky Chicken: I love the lack of sympathy I'm seeing here.  So, you expect people with a proven inability to handle money to suddenly be financially savvy when given a large winfall with no coincidental training in financial management? And when they predictably are unable to adapt to their sudden fortunes, you can proudly smugly denounce them as bad people.

This is the same thing we see with sports prodigies that get huge contracts and end up broke.  Take a person that has never been able to earn money as an amateur, and never had significant funds to manage then give them their entire lifetime income in 4-5 short years.  Then laugh at them when these people that were never in a position to learn to handle finances predictably end up not handling their finances well.

Not bad people, but, "WTF? That was dumb..." people.

My mom died with an OK whole life insurance policy, and my family sold the old restaurant building and plot. My parents made about 10 bucks an hour during their working lives. Both of them. I work, and so does my wife. About 12-14 bucks an hour. I'm figuring that my family, wife and I, will retire around 60 in around 24 years as familial millionaires as long as I stay good with my dad, and I am taking great care of him. He's awesome.

I was a shiatheel burden in my 20s who was unemployed and maxed out my credit card on movie nights and sushi with my buddies.

Don't buy a Ferrari. Invest that money, and watch the compounding interest make you rich. Do the calculations. Farking math, folks. Do you want a boat, or can you wait a few years?

Compounding interest.


See, that is the thing.  I got myself into some credit card debt and took some time to get my finances in order.  Now I'm doing alright.  I learned through making mistakes. But if someone with poor financial discipline and no natural aptitude with money suddenly gets a large sum of money, it would be more amazing if they didn't somehow screw it up.  I actually feel worse for them, because they get a taste of a life they dream of and then watch it all go away.  And they basicaly know it is their fault, but can't figure out how to stop it.
 
2018-08-10 02:32:24 PM  
T

Tricky Chicken: Wizzbang: Tricky Chicken: I love the lack of sympathy I'm seeing here.  So, you expect people with a proven inability to handle money to suddenly be financially savvy when given a large winfall with no coincidental training in financial management? And when they predictably are unable to adapt to their sudden fortunes, you can proudly smugly denounce them as bad people.

This is the same thing we see with sports prodigies that get huge contracts and end up broke.  Take a person that has never been able to earn money as an amateur, and never had significant funds to manage then give them their entire lifetime income in 4-5 short years.  Then laugh at them when these people that were never in a position to learn to handle finances predictably end up not handling their finances well.

Not bad people, but, "WTF? That was dumb..." people.

My mom died with an OK whole life insurance policy, and my family sold the old restaurant building and plot. My parents made about 10 bucks an hour during their working lives. Both of them. I work, and so does my wife. About 12-14 bucks an hour. I'm figuring that my family, wife and I, will retire around 60 in around 24 years as familial millionaires as long as I stay good with my dad, and I am taking great care of him. He's awesome.

I was a shiatheel burden in my 20s who was unemployed and maxed out my credit card on movie nights and sushi with my buddies.

Don't buy a Ferrari. Invest that money, and watch the compounding interest make you rich. Do the calculations. Farking math, folks. Do you want a boat, or can you wait a few years?

Compounding interest.

See, that is the thing.  I got myself into some credit card debt and took some time to get my finances in order.  Now I'm doing alright.  I learned through making mistakes. But if someone with poor financial discipline and no natural aptitude with money suddenly gets a large sum of money, it would be more amazing if they didn't somehow screw it up.  I actually feel worse for them ...


Yea, I feel horrible for them too. Even the celebrities. Most of them didn't grow up in money. Mike Tyson, he wasted an entire lifetime of concussions on crap. He got famous, and everyone latched onto him, as his entourage.

They need to teach this crap in school. I have used algebra in real life situations maybe 10 times in my life. Welp, good on those that use it every day. But I had to deal with financial situations every day since I became independent.

If one's parents didn't know how to deal with finances, then one had to learn and deal with that stuff oneself. I love the sciences, but it'd do the country well overall to sacrifice chemistry for a personal finance class. And to overhaul our educational system in general.

Whynotboth.jpg
 
2018-08-10 03:43:21 PM  
I thought part of the target demographic for free government stuff was stupid people....who is supposed to look after people who can't (obviously) look out for themselves?
 
2018-08-10 03:45:45 PM  

Wizzbang: Avogadro's number


Good place to check out.  Pretty good food and some good live music.

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-08-10 04:35:29 PM  
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2018-08-10 05:17:13 PM  

steklo: I like on Star Trek that their society does have or use cash or money and I keep thinking to myself, how the hell is that even possible? How can a society function like that? It boggles the mind.


They always talk about money. "Credits" some of the time, slips/strips/bars of "Latinum" on DS9.

The future can't function without money. When plots demand it they use money. When they can get away with portraying the future as free of greed and capitalism, they do that.
 
2018-08-10 08:29:23 PM  

dittybopper: Man. Goatman.:
So... poor people = dumb, rich people = smart. Got it, because there could be no possible other reason on planet Earth that someone would need help. Not defending them for squandering an inheritance, but it's a little much to criticize them for being in public housing in the first place.

In a certain sense, yes.  There is definitely a correlation between IQ (and/or academic achievement) and socioeconomic status:

https://steinhardt.nyu.edu/scmsAdmin/m​edia/users/lec321/Sirin_Articles/Sirin​_2005.pdf

http://www.emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-con​tent/uploads/Intelligence-and-socioeco​nomic-success-A-meta-analytic-review-o​f-longitudinal-research.pdf

Also, students with higher IQ/academic achievement  tend to end up with better life outcomes than students from the same socioeconomic strata but with lower IQ/academic achievement.

In addition to IQ predicting future socioeconomic status, present socioeconomic status predicts later success to a large degree.  This is shown by comparing children born to poor parents but adopted by people in a higher status having higher measured IQs than their siblings that weren't adopted.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/663​634
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v​340/n6234/abs/340552a0.html
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015​/03/18/1417106112.abstract

I can't understand why this sort of thing is so controversial.  First of all, there is a genetic component.  Some people are taller because their parents were taller.  Some people have blue eyes.  Some people have a higher innate capacity for intelligence.  But that doesn't

Then, of course, you've got culture.  Managing money is a learned skill, like any other.  It's one of the things you learn largely from your parents, and less so from your peers and from your education.  If your parents are good at managing their money, there is a very high likelihood that you'll learn the same skills.  If your parents aren't good at it, then you likely won't learn those ski ...


Except that the IQ test is really only good at measuring a specific subset of intelligence, and only for the time the test is administered. So if you take a kid with secure housing and a good breakfast, and a kid with a cheese sandwich for breakfast who knows they're getting thrown out of the apartment if they can't make rent...you will get different IQs even if the poor kid is much smarter than the rich kid, and that doesn't even take into account the current theory of nine different intelligence types, of which IQ only measures one.

And as far as 'not managing a budget', almost every lottery winner does stupid shiat. Inheritence often works the same way. Most people can't manage a lump sum, not just the poor.

You're an idiot.
 
2018-08-10 09:28:40 PM  

Bslim: [thesun.co.uk image 721x960]

I...I can't even..


So where's the "after" picture?
 
2018-08-10 10:18:12 PM  

mrmopar5287: steklo: I like on Star Trek that their society does have or use cash or money and I keep thinking to myself, how the hell is that even possible? How can a society function like that? It boggles the mind.

They always talk about money. "Credits" some of the time, slips/strips/bars of "Latinum" on DS9.

The future can't function without money. When plots demand it they use money. When they can get away with portraying the future as free of greed and capitalism, they do that.


There was a video on Youtube showing the many many times Star Trek contradicted itself, with money being one. The "we don't have money" claim followed by Picard telling how he bought something and so on.
 
2018-08-10 11:59:52 PM  

Carter Pewterschmidt: There was a video on Youtube showing the many many times Star Trek contradicted itself, with money being one. The "we don't have money" claim followed by Picard telling how he bought something and so on.


I don't have a memory of every time it happened, but one specific episode of TNG was when Dr Crusher "resigned her commission" from Starfleet. She made some offhanded remarks about how the salary/wages she cashed out wasn't much.

It was the kind of impression that members of Starfleet have access to plenty of comfort while enlisted/commissioned, somewhat in the form of a PX. Replicators provide any food you ask for, holodecks and other on-board facilities are entertainment while out on missions. Uniforms are provided and your off-duty clothing comes from replicators. Shore leave is provided when it's available, but that pesky problem of money comes up again as to how you pay for goods/services when you are on leave outside of Starfleet facilities.

Even the very first episode of TNG had a scene where Dr Crusher was buying some cloth at a market, and she made very informal arrangements to have it sent to her quarters on the ship. Surely some money changed hands for that.
 
2018-08-11 03:43:30 AM  

dittybopper: But this is what happens when you invest that heavily in a welfare state, people expect it to be a right. I'm willing to bet they could have purchased a nice enough home (certainly better than public housing) and had plenty left over to furnish it decently but modestly, and would have only been required from then on to pay utilities and taxes on it.


Welfare is a right. That's the point of it. However, there are always conditions attached, and there will always be people to stupid to understand those conditions or too greedy to think they those conditions apply to them.

On your second point, Guernsey is a very expensive place, but yes, there are 2-bed places available within the budget they had: https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/pro​p​erty/guernsey/?beds_min=2&price_max=25​0000&q=Guernsey&radius=0&results_sort=​newest_listings&search_source=refine
 
2018-08-11 03:45:02 AM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: WTF, UK?


Not the UK. Guernsey. Different country.
 
2018-08-11 03:50:22 AM  

Nogale: One point that seems to come up over and over again is that the local housing councils instruct people who get eviction notices to stay put until the bailiffs show up to physically put them out - otherwise they're considered "voluntarily homeless" and ineligible for council housing. Which means that families who would be willing to leave have to go through the pain and embarrassment of an eviction, or they can't get other housing.


It's completely insane. A side-effect is that people who have to be evicted by bailiffs will find it almost impossible ever to rent privately again, so by enforcing this stupid (and made-up) rule, councils are ensuring that they will have indefinitely continuing responsibility for housing the evictees.

The south of England has a huge housing shortage. Prices are through the roof, rents are through the roof and so demand for social housing is through the roof, while stocks are falling lower because the Conservatives introduced legislation forcing councils to sell it off, at a huge discount.

Meanwhile, in my bit of Scotland demand for social housing is so low that the council advertises it in shop windows. £30 per week and no takers.
 
2018-08-11 03:54:58 AM  

trialpha: You're making the same mistake, that poor == low IQ, or rich == high IQ.

Try that with race, and see how far it gets you.


Poor = black, rich == white works pretty well, on average.
 
2018-08-11 07:11:27 AM  
I know the point of articles like this is to let rich people pat themselves on the back, and say "Poor people don't deserve money!" But don't forget: if rich people were "smart with money", they wouldn't need trust funds.
 
2018-08-11 09:25:35 AM  

orbister: Nogale: One point that seems to come up over and over again is that the local housing councils instruct people who get eviction notices to stay put until the bailiffs show up to physically put them out - otherwise they're considered "voluntarily homeless" and ineligible for council housing. Which means that families who would be willing to leave have to go through the pain and embarrassment of an eviction, or they can't get other housing.

It's completely insane. A side-effect is that people who have to be evicted by bailiffs will find it almost impossible ever to rent privately again, so by enforcing this stupid (and made-up) rule, councils are ensuring that they will have indefinitely continuing responsibility for housing the evictees.

The south of England has a huge housing shortage. Prices are through the roof, rents are through the roof and so demand for social housing is through the roof, while stocks are falling lower because the Conservatives introduced legislation forcing councils to sell it off, at a huge discount.

Meanwhile, in my bit of Scotland demand for social housing is so low that the council advertises it in shop windows. £30 per week and no takers.


But when Conservatives do do something to help address this issue, like the "Bedroom Tax" they get criticised. The bedroom tax is actually saying to those living in council houses/flats or those whose rent is paid by the council that if you have more bedrooms than people it is unfair to expect the state to pay and to 'encourage' you to move to a smaller place and free up the bigger place for those who need it they will only pay a percentage of your rent. So they'll pay  the rent for the house but not that extra bedroom. If you want to keep it you can happily choose to pay it yourself.
The Conservatives are also doing other things. Encouraging new developments, higher taxes on second homes, taxes on buy to let etc designed to slow down those markets and make it easier for buyers and first time buyers. But of course they don't want to start a crash by being too drastic.
 
2018-08-11 02:23:17 PM  

Carter Pewterschmidt: But when Conservatives do do something to help address this issue, like the "Bedroom Tax" they get criticised.


There are two issues with the "bedroom tax". First of all, there simply are not smaller social housing properties for people to move into, so even if they want to downsize they can't without going into the private sector which is inordinately expensive and costs the state a fortune in housing support payments.

Second, the conservatives on the whole see social housing as a short term solution, like other benefits but the established culture generally is that social housing is a longterm/lifelong solution. Both views are OK, but the Tories are up against a lot of social inertia.

I take an intermediate view - I think social housing can be lifelong provision, but those using it should expect the house size to change as their lives progress. A retired couple should not expect to live in the size of subsidised housing they needed when they had three teenagers at home.

The Conservatives are also doing other things. Encouraging new developments, higher taxes on second homes, taxes on buy to let etc designed to slow down those markets and make it easier for buyers and first time buyers. But of course they don't want to start a crash by being too drastic.

They have done a little, but what we really, really need is a huge, full-on house price crash. A fall of 80% in London and 50% in the cheapest areas would be about right. The current situation is clearly unsustainable.
 
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