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(AlterNet)   Victim of homeschooling becomes advocate for public schooling   ( alternet.org) divider line
    More: Obvious, Education in the United States, Education, federal government, High school, American public education, American education efforts, high school diploma, National Education Effort  
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572 clicks; posted to Discussion » on 03 Jan 2018 at 2:50 AM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



36 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2018-01-03 07:30:37 AM  
I was homeschooled until my teacher was arrested for sleeping with her students.
 
2018-01-03 07:55:27 AM  
No school administrator has suspended a homeschooled student for actions outside of school. Or in school.
 
2018-01-03 08:04:10 AM  
A 2012 study found Americans ranking poorly among developed nations in math skills

Unfortunately, when you try to actually address that, a bunch of parents lose their shiat because they're unable to conceive of number lines and insist that their kids learn math the same routine way they did.

img.fark.netView Full Size

As a guy with a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering, I can't conceive why Frustrated Parent is having so much trouble with this.  Once I understood powers of 10, then there was no more need for the rote routine of addition on paper.  I could do it all in my head.  Did this guy go to Arizona State or something?  Did he see "Common Core" and imagine Obummer forcing his kids to get gay married to a turtle in front of a death panel.
 
2018-01-03 09:23:01 AM  

Rapmaster2000: A 2012 study found Americans ranking poorly among developed nations in math skills

Unfortunately, when you try to actually address that, a bunch of parents lose their shiat because they're unable to conceive of number lines and insist that their kids learn math the same routine way they did.

[img.fark.net image 461x591]
As a guy with a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering, I can't conceive why Frustrated Parent is having so much trouble with this.  Once I understood powers of 10, then there was no more need for the rote routine of addition on paper.  I could do it all in my head.  Did this guy go to Arizona State or something?  Did he see "Common Core" and imagine Obummer forcing his kids to get gay married to a turtle in front of a death panel.


I recall the first time I saw that image: I couldn't figure out which schools issue degrees in "Electronics Engineering". My BS is in "Electrical and Computer Engineering", and my MS says "Electrical Engineering".  Most top schools have similar degree titles. A check of the Google suggests Devry or CSU Long Beach. All I know is that where I work (building autonomous aircraft), an engineer who can't figure out Common Core doesn't need to be handling any critical design or development tasks. He/she can work with logistics and order production and replacement parts, or maybe go work for a competitor down the street.
 
2018-01-03 09:27:52 AM  
The reason common core confuses me is simple: I never had to learn these particular visualizations and as such, when presented with them, I have no idea what I'm supposed to do with them.
 
Ant
2018-01-03 09:34:17 AM  

Rapmaster2000: Unfortunately, when you try to actually address that, a bunch of parents lose their shiat because they're unable to conceive of number lines and insist that their kids learn math the same routine way they did.


This. There are math techniques used informally by the more successful kids that teachers have just recently started to teach to the others. Unfortunately, when some people see these techniques they immediately freak out and don't even make an effort to understand what it does.
 
2018-01-03 09:41:38 AM  

Rapmaster2000: A 2012 study found Americans ranking poorly among developed nations in math skills

Unfortunately, when you try to actually address that, a bunch of parents lose their shiat because they're unable to conceive of number lines and insist that their kids learn math the same routine way they did.

[img.fark.net image 461x591]
As a guy with a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering, I can't conceive why Frustrated Parent is having so much trouble with this.  Once I understood powers of 10, then there was no more need for the rote routine of addition on paper.  I could do it all in my head.  Did this guy go to Arizona State or something?  Did he see "Common Core" and imagine Obummer forcing his kids to get gay married to a turtle in front of a death panel.


I've taken lots of math in my time.  I went as far as graphing three dimensional integrals (they look like saddles).  This is the first time I've seen this "number line" approach to simple subtraction.  it's idiotic.  Frustrated Parent is correct.
 
2018-01-03 09:48:55 AM  

Greil: The reason common core confuses me is simple: I never had to learn these particular visualizations and as such, when presented with them, I have no idea what I'm supposed to do with them.


I just see it as needlessly complicated.

In my line of work, I have to deal with control code written by a variety of vendors, all of which does the same thing.  A good vendor will write straightforward code that even a novice could follow to some extent.  A programmer more interested in showing off or job security will write 40 lines of code with nested timelines in order to fire a single relay.

I'm sure this all works and makes sense in its own way, but it just seems needless.  Addition and subtraction are well established,  Something that these innovators never seem to consider is a new graduate is going to enter a workforce where the majority of their co-workers (and almost certainly all of their supervisors) were taught math the standard way.  And in ten years when Common Core is abandoned for g*d knows what, it's just going to create another level of befuddlement.

I know this comes across as "get off my lawn", but while there are plenty of things that need changed, we all need a common base.
 
2018-01-03 09:57:19 AM  

Great_Milenko: Greil: The reason common core confuses me is simple: I never had to learn these particular visualizations and as such, when presented with them, I have no idea what I'm supposed to do with them.

I just see it as needlessly complicated.

In my line of work, I have to deal with control code written by a variety of vendors, all of which does the same thing.  A good vendor will write straightforward code that even a novice could follow to some extent.  A programmer more interested in showing off or job security will write 40 lines of code with nested timelines in order to fire a single relay.

I'm sure this all works and makes sense in its own way, but it just seems needless.  Addition and subtraction are well established,  Something that these innovators never seem to consider is a new graduate is going to enter a workforce where the majority of their co-workers (and almost certainly all of their supervisors) were taught math the standard way.  And in ten years when Common Core is abandoned for g*d knows what, it's just going to create another level of befuddlement.

I know this comes across as "get off my lawn", but while there are plenty of things that need changed, we all need a common base.


You are joking with this post, right?

Nobody is this stupid.
 
2018-01-03 10:02:55 AM  

Great_Milenko: Rapmaster2000: A 2012 study found Americans ranking poorly among developed nations in math skills

Unfortunately, when you try to actually address that, a bunch of parents lose their shiat because they're unable to conceive of number lines and insist that their kids learn math the same routine way they did.

[img.fark.net image 461x591]
As a guy with a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering, I can't conceive why Frustrated Parent is having so much trouble with this.  Once I understood powers of 10, then there was no more need for the rote routine of addition on paper.  I could do it all in my head.  Did this guy go to Arizona State or something?  Did he see "Common Core" and imagine Obummer forcing his kids to get gay married to a turtle in front of a death panel.

I've taken lots of math in my time.  I went as far as graphing three dimensional integrals (they look like saddles).  This is the first time I've seen this "number line" approach to simple subtraction.  it's idiotic.  Frustrated Parent is correct.


Looking at that number line confused me for a moment, but then I realized it's basically how I do math in my head. Maybe they should teach both ways, and let the kids decide which clicks best.
 
2018-01-03 10:06:39 AM  
They used blocks when I was a kid. Contrary to the clown in this thread, I don't break out blocks to do math.

The number line is not teaching them how to math for life, it is about teaching a better understanding than numbers on a board.

I've no idea whether this is the best or a better way than I was taught, but it certainly won't result in the next generation of electronics engineers busting out a number line for subtracting.
 
2018-01-03 10:12:24 AM  
We're suffering from a national lack of innovation

No, we're suffering from too much god dammed innovation.  The "new math" they keep rolling out is inane.

Reading.  Writing.  Arithmetic.   These things are not complicated, and they do not need anything more innovative than good material and a white board.
 
2018-01-03 10:15:07 AM  

Smackledorfer: Great_Milenko: Greil: The reason common core confuses me is simple: I never had to learn these particular visualizations and as such, when presented with them, I have no idea what I'm supposed to do with them.

I just see it as needlessly complicated.

In my line of work, I have to deal with control code written by a variety of vendors, all of which does the same thing.  A good vendor will write straightforward code that even a novice could follow to some extent.  A programmer more interested in showing off or job security will write 40 lines of code with nested timelines in order to fire a single relay.

I'm sure this all works and makes sense in its own way, but it just seems needless.  Addition and subtraction are well established,  Something that these innovators never seem to consider is a new graduate is going to enter a workforce where the majority of their co-workers (and almost certainly all of their supervisors) were taught math the standard way.  And in ten years when Common Core is abandoned for g*d knows what, it's just going to create another level of befuddlement.

I know this comes across as "get off my lawn", but while there are plenty of things that need changed, we all need a common base.

You are joking with this post, right?

Nobody is this stupid.


Sorry, but at it's core it's a number trick.  It's like those old Abbot & Costello skits, only the math works out right.

I had no idea Fark was so smitten with mathemagicians.

(sorry for crappy video quality, but this is the type of thing I could see this guy doing)

Mathemagician
Youtube 56SBFA1xy1o
 
Ant
2018-01-03 10:15:20 AM  

toomanyofthem: Great_Milenko: Rapmaster2000: A 2012 study found Americans ranking poorly among developed nations in math skills

Unfortunately, when you try to actually address that, a bunch of parents lose their shiat because they're unable to conceive of number lines and insist that their kids learn math the same routine way they did.

[img.fark.net image 461x591]
As a guy with a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering, I can't conceive why Frustrated Parent is having so much trouble with this.  Once I understood powers of 10, then there was no more need for the rote routine of addition on paper.  I could do it all in my head.  Did this guy go to Arizona State or something?  Did he see "Common Core" and imagine Obummer forcing his kids to get gay married to a turtle in front of a death panel.

I've taken lots of math in my time.  I went as far as graphing three dimensional integrals (they look like saddles).  This is the first time I've seen this "number line" approach to simple subtraction.  it's idiotic.  Frustrated Parent is correct.

Looking at that number line confused me for a moment, but then I realized it's basically how I do math in my head. Maybe they should teach both ways, and let the kids decide which clicks best.


That's what I was trying to get at. Unfortunately, all I have is my phone, which limits my desire to elaborate.

Some kids do stuff like that in their heads. Teachers are now showing this to the kids who didn't think to do it this way. They're just providing them with another tool to use.
 
Ant
2018-01-03 10:19:01 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: The "new math" they keep rolling out is inane.


It's not new though. These are things that kids who are good at math already do inside their heads. Why not help kids who aren't so good at math by teaching them the same techniques?
 
2018-01-03 10:19:27 AM  

Smackledorfer: The number line is not teaching them how to math for life


A number line is very useful for teaching math.  They used it when I learned math back in the 1960's.

They also taught us about the imaginary plane.  How many high school students can tell you what imaginary numbers are useful for?  Almost none, because that content has been dumbed down to a vapid talking point in class.

There is no new math.
 
2018-01-03 10:20:42 AM  

Ant: t's not new though


No it's not.  But the idea that there is some "best way" to teach math is risible.
 
2018-01-03 10:25:53 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Smackledorfer: The number line is not teaching them how to math for life

A number line is very useful for teaching math.  They used it when I learned math back in the 1960's.

They also taught us about the imaginary plane.  How many high school students can tell you what imaginary numbers are useful for?  Almost none, because that content has been dumbed down to a vapid talking point in class.

There is no new math.


I don't even know where to start with this verbal diarrhea of yours. You are just throwing disjointed shiat at a wall and hoping something sticks.
 
2018-01-03 10:34:08 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Ant: t's not new though

No it's not.  But the idea that there is some "best way" to teach math is risible.


Are there better and worse ways to teach math? If so, there is a best method, or a set of equally good methods (not necessarily common core).

If there is only one way, then your complaints about common core are meaningless: they must be teaching it in the only way.

In order for you to complain there are better or worse ways, you have to support your argument with why your way, or some other way, is superior to whatever it is your goofball mind imagines common core to be.

The only thing laughable in these threads is the ignorance of those ranting about common core and the inflammatory nature in which they do so.   It is a combination of ignorant parents, the retarded magnification of their complaints by people who simply hate everything new the government does like tea party groups and those who wish tie the whole thing to Obama and want everything he has touched to fail, and the doofuses who have bought into that hyperbolic reaction to it.
 
2018-01-03 10:38:13 AM  

Smackledorfer: In order for you to complain there are better or worse ways, you have to support your argument with why your way, or some other way, is superior to whatever it is your goofball mind imagines common core to be.


I need coffee.  In order for you to complain that any of these new innovations in teaching are bad, you have to accept that there are better or worse ways, and the burden is on you to explain why the new ways are worse than the old ways. If there are no better or worse ways, how can you be so annoyed with common core?
 
2018-01-03 11:00:22 AM  

Smackledorfer: Smackledorfer: In order for you to complain there are better or worse ways, you have to support your argument with why your way, or some other way, is superior to whatever it is your goofball mind imagines common core to be.

I need coffee.  In order for you to complain that any of these new innovations in teaching are bad, you have to accept that there are better or worse ways, and the burden is on you to explain why the new ways are worse than the old ways. If there are no better or worse ways, how can you be so annoyed with common core?


frinkiac.comView Full Size
 
2018-01-03 11:01:02 AM  

Great_Milenko: Greil: The reason common core confuses me is simple: I never had to learn these particular visualizations and as such, when presented with them, I have no idea what I'm supposed to do with them.

I just see it as needlessly complicated.

In my line of work, I have to deal with control code written by a variety of vendors, all of which does the same thing.  A good vendor will write straightforward code that even a novice could follow to some extent.  A programmer more interested in showing off or job security will write 40 lines of code with nested timelines in order to fire a single relay.

I'm sure this all works and makes sense in its own way, but it just seems needless.  Addition and subtraction are well established,  Something that these innovators never seem to consider is a new graduate is going to enter a workforce where the majority of their co-workers (and almost certainly all of their supervisors) were taught math the standard way.  And in ten years when Common Core is abandoned for g*d knows what, it's just going to create another level of befuddlement.

I know this comes across as "get off my lawn", but while there are plenty of things that need changed, we all need a common base.


You would probably hate these less if you knew that they have absolutely nothing to do with Common Core.
 
2018-01-03 11:19:12 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Smackledorfer: The number line is not teaching them how to math for life

A number line is very useful for teaching math.  They used it when I learned math back in the 1960's.

They also taught us about the imaginary plane.  How many high school students can tell you what imaginary numbers are useful for?  Almost none, because that content has been dumbed down to a vapid talking point in class.

There is no new math.


I wonder what the fark are imaginary numbers useful for? I never wrapped my head around them in sophomore math class.

I think a lot of the "OMG common core math is nutz" crap comes from poorly put together worksheets that are designed by some grad student who probably doesn't have an degree in math or education. The same thing happens with text books.
 
2018-01-03 11:23:04 AM  

toomanyofthem: Looking at that number line confused me for a moment, but then I realized it's basically how I do math in my head. Maybe they should teach both ways, and let the kids decide which clicks best.


I had a similar moment of confusion. Then I realized that it's the same technique I'd learned from the book How To Calculate Quickly which teaches how to do math without resorting to pencil and paper (or calculator). It was originally published in 1945 and was probably an old idea even then.
 
2018-01-03 11:34:45 AM  

shortymac: Marcus Aurelius: Smackledorfer: The number line is not teaching them how to math for life

A number line is very useful for teaching math.  They used it when I learned math back in the 1960's.

They also taught us about the imaginary plane.  How many high school students can tell you what imaginary numbers are useful for?  Almost none, because that content has been dumbed down to a vapid talking point in class.

There is no new math.

I wonder what the fark are imaginary numbers useful for? I never wrapped my head around them in sophomore math class.

I think a lot of the "OMG common core math is nutz" crap comes from poorly put together worksheets that are designed by some grad student who probably doesn't have an degree in math or education. The same thing happens with text books.


There is no "common core math".  Common core is a set of academic standards to align the states.  Meanwhile, number lines are a thing being taught in some schools.

Idiots who couldn't understand the value of teaching the concept of grouping by 10s (number lines) decided to call that "common core math" and then biatch about it with anonymous internet screeds.

Number lines are not "common core math".  They are number lines.  That's it.  People hate number lines now because they hate Obama.  Those people should be mocked and ridiculed.

Wait until these people realize that number lines s are the concept of the metric system.
 
2018-01-03 11:40:41 AM  
Don't worry, soon enough someone will chime in with why schools don't teach the kiddos how to write in script or how to use a slide rule anymore.

Just as long as they're productive enough to contribute into Social Security once they hit 18 (gotta look out for my future) I've accepted that a lot has changed in every area since when I was in school. Things change, except for my lawn, stay off of it.
 
2018-01-03 11:55:40 AM  

shortymac: Marcus Aurelius: Smackledorfer: The number line is not teaching them how to math for life

A number line is very useful for teaching math.  They used it when I learned math back in the 1960's.

They also taught us about the imaginary plane.  How many high school students can tell you what imaginary numbers are useful for?  Almost none, because that content has been dumbed down to a vapid talking point in class.

There is no new math.

I wonder what the fark are imaginary numbers useful for? I never wrapped my head around them in sophomore math class.

I think a lot of the "OMG common core math is nutz" crap comes from poorly put together worksheets that are designed by some grad student who probably doesn't have an degree in math or education. The same thing happens with text books.


Imaginary numbers are useful once you get into calculus, and they're also quite useful for things like electrical and radio engineering.  For example, Amateur Extra license exams actually do have sections where you have to compute the capacitive reactance and resistance load based on figures in an X-Y chart to do proper impedance matching in a circuit.  You will be using imaginary numbers for this (fortunately they let you take in basic calculators...but you still need to know how to figure the values for the real and imaginary lines in your plot).  This is actually pretty damn important, as you do want your impedance to match across the circuit (if there's an impedance mismatch you'll be using more power to produce less signal, and in extreme cases you'll actually be exceeding tolerances of the bits you're sending power through).  You also need to know how to work with real and imaginary numbers (including expressions in polar coordinates) to learn how to use Smith charts properly.
 
2018-01-03 11:55:43 AM  
This whole number lines and powers of ten stuff is a way of getting people to accept Arabic numerals as a first step toward Sharia law. Roman numerals, like God intended, people.
 
2018-01-03 12:08:38 PM  
I'll just throw this out there, when I was in the sixth grade, I was told that in four years (1980)   the USA  would be on the metric system which is more efficient than what we have.   But how did that work out?  I can tell you how many miles I get to the gallon, but not how many kilometers I get to the litre.  Americans are stubborn.
 
2018-01-03 01:23:57 PM  
Teaching a non-linear or abstract concepts, such as math, to a kid that only grasps concrete examples is where blocks and number lines are best.  But, for anyone with higher ordered or typical executive function, it comes across as lame, stupid, juvenile, whatever.  It really gives that visual boost that some people need.  That's how it got included in Common Core, so that what is uncommon becomes common, and a part of the base or core of the knowledge to build higher knowledge and retention.  If you got it, congratulations.  If not, here's a new way to try and get it.
 
2018-01-03 02:11:52 PM  

Rapmaster2000: Great_Milenko: Greil: The reason common core confuses me is simple: I never had to learn these particular visualizations and as such, when presented with them, I have no idea what I'm supposed to do with them.

I just see it as needlessly complicated.

In my line of work, I have to deal with control code written by a variety of vendors, all of which does the same thing.  A good vendor will write straightforward code that even a novice could follow to some extent.  A programmer more interested in showing off or job security will write 40 lines of code with nested timelines in order to fire a single relay.

I'm sure this all works and makes sense in its own way, but it just seems needless.  Addition and subtraction are well established,  Something that these innovators never seem to consider is a new graduate is going to enter a workforce where the majority of their co-workers (and almost certainly all of their supervisors) were taught math the standard way.  And in ten years when Common Core is abandoned for g*d knows what, it's just going to create another level of befuddlement.

I know this comes across as "get off my lawn", but while there are plenty of things that need changed, we all need a common base.

You would probably hate these less if you knew that they have absolutely nothing to do with Common Core.


Fair enough. There's probably as much false information about Common Core out there as there is about climate change and electric cars.  I did watch a few Common Core videos and didn't see any number lines.
 
2018-01-03 02:13:40 PM  

Opacity: Don't worry, soon enough someone will chime in with why schools don't teach the kiddos how to write in script or how to use a slide rule anymore.

Just as long as they're productive enough to contribute into Social Security once they hit 18 (gotta look out for my future) I've accepted that a lot has changed in every area since when I was in school. Things change, except for my lawn, stay off of it.


You forgot they can't read an analog clock. It's important because analog clocks look nice hanging over their turntables so they can tell what time it is while listening to vinyl records.
 
2018-01-03 02:15:00 PM  

riverwalk barfly: I'll just throw this out there, when I was in the sixth grade, I was told that in four years (1980)   the USA  would be on the metric system which is more efficient than what we have.   But how did that work out?  I can tell you how many miles I get to the gallon, but not how many kilometers I get to the litre.  Americans are stubborn.


The best part of learning the metric system in grade school in the 1970's was doing a unit on the metric system then using imperial measurements for everything else the rest of the year.
 
2018-01-03 06:45:27 PM  

Great_Milenko: Fair enough. There's probably as much false information about Common Core out there as there is about climate change and electric cars. I did watch a few Common Core videos and didn't see any number lines.


The problem isn't so much Common Core as it is that when schools adopt process heavy standards like Common Core, they force the kids to complete the work in this method.  Show your work through the diagram/word problem designed to show you the shortcut becomes the rule, and you fail if you use a different method.  If I send my kid to Kumon, which is fantastic for their traditional math mastery program, they're going to learn a completely different way than a Common Core style approach, which is designed around concept comprehension and procedural fluency rather than mastery's continual practice of traditional math approach(in which the time based worksheet approach tends to lead to more of a natural memorization approach, similar to multiplication tables we all learned as kids).  Concepts and procedures turn in to "answer our question with our method or you fail" rather than "provide the correct answer to 500-152 and show your work".

img.fark.netView Full Size


Here's a viral example from a few years back.  Follow the steps exactly to get the answer or you fail.  Getting the answer and following successful steps to get the answer aren't correct if they don't meet the stated process in the teacher's key.  In this case, the student got the correct answer and followed the spirit of the question correctly, but the failed anyways because what many of us read as "5, 3 times" is "3, 5 times" in the manual.  In the end, if the question was answer 5x3 and show your work, the kid would have had the correct answers because the kid successfully showed a valid answer and a valid method for getting the answer.  People arguing about "this is how I do it in my head" can still use that process to answer a question written as such, but questions written under process driven systems like Common Core require adherence to the process rather than actually mastering the math question itself.
 
2018-01-03 06:47:10 PM  

cherryl taggart: Teaching a non-linear or abstract concepts, such as math, to a kid that only grasps concrete examples is where blocks and number lines are best. But, for anyone with higher ordered or typical executive function, it comes across as lame, stupid, juvenile, whatever. It really gives that visual boost that some people need. That's how it got included in Common Core, so that what is uncommon becomes common, and a part of the base or core of the knowledge to build higher knowledge and retention. If you got it, congratulations. If not, here's a new way to try and get it.


The problem is that it's not "here's a new way to try", it's "here's the new way to do it or you fail the question"
 
2018-01-03 10:05:02 PM  
Hai guys, what's going on?

rs169.pbsrc.comView Full Size
 
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