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(CBS San Francisco)   California to consider a mileage tax for drivers, hopes that the 405 during rush hour traffic could generate as much as $8 a year   ( sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com) divider line
    More: Asinine, Internal combustion engine, Automobile, gas tax, Plug-in hybrid, Taxation in the United States, Tax, Electric car, Senator Scott Wiener  
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765 clicks; posted to Business » on 15 Dec 2017 at 10:15 PM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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ZAZ [TotalFark]
2017-12-15 07:54:38 PM  
The mileage tax they are talking about is a money grab with a side dish of surveillance. Washington is handing out money to lobby for and implement it, so states are jumping on board.

The mileage tax I was expecting to read about but didn't is a congestion fee that would charge about 10 cents a mile to drive when the freeways are busy. That's only half a money grab. It aims to solve a real problem, and if it were implemented by decent people instead of government officials it might even work.
 
2017-12-15 10:17:52 PM  
I'm waiting for them to make those toll road e-readers mandatory and institute a scheduling reservation to ensure only celebrities can use the freeway.
 
2017-12-15 10:23:31 PM  
As long as they apply to all vehicles, otherwise they'll discourage further conversion to EV. Gas taxes have been hard to shift upward, and we're a decade into giving the EVs a free ride.
 
2017-12-15 10:31:41 PM  
Mileage taxes are bad policy.  They penalize people driving hybrid vehicles that are generally smaller and have less impact on roadways.

Gas taxes are good policy.  They penalize people driving large vehicles that are fuel inefficient and do more damage to roadways, and they can contribute to people downsizing if they do not need a large vehicle for work/family.

Now, perhaps a mileage tax specifically for owners of EVs would be appropriate.  But it's long past time gas taxes went up across the country.
 
2017-12-15 10:50:40 PM  
Lets not pretend that the current gas tax isn't a mileage tax. If your vehicle is heavier and wears on the road more you pay for more fuel because of reduced mileage. If you travel more/longer you use more fuel and pay more for roads. Currently EVs have a negligible effect on the roads due to their real rarity. When EVs become common we can talk. Otherwise shut the hell up about a "mileage tax" because there already is one.
 
2017-12-15 10:52:44 PM  
"One idea would be installing devices that would clock your mileage every time you pull up to the pump or electric car charging station. Or put a tracker on every car."

Why not just check the odometer every year when they do the state inspection and charge accordingly. Sure, people can tamper with the odometer, but any device you install will have that problem.

"The reality is that if you have a smartphone your data of where you are traveling is already in existence,"

Yeah, I hate to break this to you, but not everyone is connected at the hip to their damn cell phone.
 
2017-12-15 10:58:25 PM  
"Li said he saves around $200 a month by not using gas and said he would definitely not be happy if his driving was taxed per mile."

I love how these people think it's perfectly reasonable for them to not pay taxes for roads they use as equally as someone who drives a gasoline powered vehicle. Screw these people. If you drive on the roads you should pay for their maintenance the same as anyone else.
 
2017-12-15 11:10:07 PM  

ReapTheChaos: "One idea would be installing devices that would clock your mileage every time you pull up to the pump or electric car charging station. Or put a tracker on every car."

Why not just check the odometer every year when they do the state inspection and charge accordingly. Sure, people can tamper with the odometer, but any device you install will have that problem.

"The reality is that if you have a smartphone your data of where you are traveling is already in existence,"

Yeah, I hate to break this to you, but not everyone is connected at the hip to their damn cell phone.


Not all states do a yearly (or ever) Inspection. In CA we have every other year emissions check but that's it.
 
2017-12-15 11:12:31 PM  

ReapTheChaos: "One idea would be installing devices that would clock your mileage every time you pull up to the pump or electric car charging station. Or put a tracker on every car."

Why not just check the odometer every year when they do the state inspection and charge accordingly. Sure, people can tamper with the odometer, but any device you install will have that problem.


Because some of us take our cars out of state.
 
2017-12-15 11:17:39 PM  
One idea would be installing devices that would clock your mileage every time you pull up to the pump or electric car charging station.

As the owner of a plug-in-hybrid, I like this the best, because I plug my car in my 120 volt household outlet. There is no way they could track my mileage with my current setup.

They could require that charging cables record how much electricity passes through them. But that could be easily bypassed by using a cable bought out of state.
 
2017-12-15 11:22:03 PM  

ReapTheChaos: "One idea would be installing devices that would clock your mileage every time you pull up to the pump or electric car charging station. Or put a tracker on every car."

Why not just check the odometer every year when they do the state inspection and charge accordingly. Sure, people can tamper with the odometer, but any device you install will have that problem.

"The reality is that if you have a smartphone your data of where you are traveling is already in existence,"

Yeah, I hate to break this to you, but not everyone is connected at the hip to their damn cell phone.


And I can't even begin to tell you how many people want OMG TEH FARTBONGO GUBMENT tracking their mileage..
 
2017-12-15 11:25:12 PM  
Boy, it's expensive to be poor.  Can't afford to live close to work so you have to waste your life in traffic, spend more on gas, and now get taxed on top of it.
 
2017-12-15 11:30:49 PM  
Why not just check the odometer every year when they do the state inspection and charge accordingly. Sure, people can tamper with the odometer, but any device you install will have that problem.


That means every year or two people are going to have to come up with a big lump sum to pay.  Pay as you go is a far better method.  I'm not a fan of having a device in your car that tracks your mileage either though.  I kind of like the toll road system a bit better, then people who didn't care could just have those toll road things in their car and people that were worried about being tracked could pay cash.
 
2017-12-15 11:39:33 PM  

Bazzlex001: Mileage taxes are bad policy.  They penalize people driving hybrid vehicles that are generally smaller and have less impact on roadways.

Gas taxes are good policy.  They penalize people driving large vehicles that are fuel inefficient and do more damage to roadways, and they can contribute to people downsizing if they do not need a large vehicle for work/family.

Now, perhaps a mileage tax specifically for owners of EVs would be appropriate.  But it's long past time gas taxes went up across the country.


So you are advocating a regressive tax on people who can't afford a new hybrid or electric car?  The wealthy who can buy a new Tesla should pay less than the guy making minimum wage who has to by a 10 year old used car?

A mileage tax was inevitable as more and more people switched to hybrids or electrics.  Gas taxes have not kept up with inflation while mpg has kept increasing.  Don't like the idea of tracking cars, would prefer if they checked the odometer during inspections.
 
2017-12-15 11:54:48 PM  

Incog_Neeto: Why not just check the odometer every year when they do the state inspection and charge accordingly. Sure, people can tamper with the odometer, but any device you install will have that problem.


That means every year or two people are going to have to come up with a big lump sum to pay.  Pay as you go is a far better method.  I'm not a fan of having a device in your car that tracks your mileage either though.  I kind of like the toll road system a bit better, then people who didn't care could just have those toll road things in their car and people that were worried about being tracked could pay cash.


I'm sure they could split it into payments for people who drive a lot of miles. There has to be a better way than installing a device in every single car, as well as every gas pump or charging station. The cost of something like that would be enormous. And as someone else has pointed out, how are they going to bill people who charge at home?
 
2017-12-15 11:56:20 PM  
Not yet, guys.  You're still trying to get people to drive EVs and currently the gas tax is a major factor in that.  Once you've succeeded and got a big chunk of EVs on the road you can pat yourselves on the back and start phasing in a mileage tax.

Or, maybe grow some balls and increase the gas tax if you need money?  Californians love taxes.  Voters in my former district approved 5/5 new taxes on the ballot last year, and some of them were obvious money grabs.  (Like when the school district built a new sports complex and parking garage but, oh dear, they don't have have enough money to fix leaks in the classroom, so they a tax-funded bond measure, for the children.  Gag.  Voters overwhelmingly approved of it though, for the children.  This is among the wealthiest school districts in the state, BTW.)
 
2017-12-16 12:01:53 AM  

Incog_Neeto: Why not just check the odometer every year when they do the state inspection and charge accordingly. Sure, people can tamper with the odometer, but any device you install will have that problem.


That means every year or two people are going to have to come up with a big lump sum to pay.  Pay as you go is a far better method.  I'm not a fan of having a device in your car that tracks your mileage either though.  I kind of like the toll road system a bit better, then people who didn't care could just have those toll road things in their car and people that were worried about being tracked could pay cash.


That is total miles droven, though many of those miles could have been driven in other states.

It's why I hate till roads. Cool, I'm paying for the roads via a couple of dollar fee, but do I get a rebate on the gas tax for those till lane miles since that is in a way double taxation?
 
2017-12-16 12:11:10 AM  

Incog_Neeto: Why not just check the odometer every year when they do the state inspection and charge accordingly. Sure, people can tamper with the odometer, but any device you install will have that problem.


That means every year or two people are going to have to come up with a big lump sum to pay.  Pay as you go is a far better method.  I'm not a fan of having a device in your car that tracks your mileage either though.  I kind of like the toll road system a bit better, then people who didn't care could just have those toll road things in their car and people that were worried about being tracked could pay cash.


Can't you just drive your car backwards to work every other day??
 
2017-12-16 12:19:18 AM  
Auto play video?  Fark you.
 
2017-12-16 12:40:37 AM  
Screw this.

California legislators have recently sold raising the gas tax as an incentive to switch people to hybrids. They passed laws requiring the fleet of vehicles to be more energy efficient in the near future.

And now they want to tax people for doing just what they were incentivized to due?

Fark them and the Model S's they rode in on. Find a better and less intrusive way to fund the government. Usage taxes with monitoring are the wrong way to do it.
 
2017-12-16 01:02:32 AM  

aerojockey: Not yet, guys.  You're still trying to get people to drive EVs and currently the gas tax is a major factor in that.  Once you've succeeded and got a big chunk of EVs on the road you can pat yourselves on the back and start phasing in a mileage tax.

Or, maybe grow some balls and increase the gas tax if you need money?  Californians love taxes.  Voters in my former district approved 5/5 new taxes on the ballot last year, and some of them were obvious money grabs.  (Like when the school district built a new sports complex and parking garage but, oh dear, they don't have have enough money to fix leaks in the classroom, so they a tax-funded bond measure, for the children.  Gag.  Voters overwhelmingly approved of it though, for the children.  This is among the wealthiest school districts in the state, BTW.)


Please come preach to the unwashed masses of my state about the needful of roads and how an increase in gas taxes could alleviate many budget "issues".

/no I'm not serious, they don't math
 
2017-12-16 02:15:17 AM  

Bazzlex001: Mileage taxes are bad policy.  They penalize people driving hybrid vehicles that are generally smaller and have less impact on roadways.

Gas taxes are good policy.  They penalize people driving large vehicles that are fuel inefficient and do more damage to roadways, and they can contribute to people downsizing if they do not need a large vehicle for work/family.

Now, perhaps a mileage tax specifically for owners of EVs would be appropriate.  But it's long past time gas taxes went up across the country.


You are obviously not familiar with the gas tax rates in California.  Also, until there are a wider variety of EV options with somewhat better pricing, penalizing people for driving vehicles with gas engines is neither fair nor reasonable.

I drive a pickup because I NEED one for work.  I look forward to the day when an EV version is available and affordable.  Until then, I am stuck with what I have.
 
2017-12-16 02:36:58 AM  

Bazzlex001: Mileage taxes are bad policy.  They penalize people driving hybrid vehicles that are generally smaller and have less impact on roadways.

Gas taxes are good policy.  They penalize people driving large vehicles that are fuel inefficient and do more damage to roadways, and they can contribute to people downsizing if they do not need a large vehicle for work/family.

Now, perhaps a mileage tax specifically for owners of EVs would be appropriate.  But it's long past time gas taxes went up across the country.


Hybrid and electric cars are not easier on the road. They are just as heavy (if not heavier due to batteries) than normal cars. The Tesla S weighs almost 5,000 lbs.
 
2017-12-16 02:41:17 AM  

Farnn: Bazzlex001: Mileage taxes are bad policy.  They penalize people driving hybrid vehicles that are generally smaller and have less impact on roadways.

Gas taxes are good policy.  They penalize people driving large vehicles that are fuel inefficient and do more damage to roadways, and they can contribute to people downsizing if they do not need a large vehicle for work/family.

Now, perhaps a mileage tax specifically for owners of EVs would be appropriate.  But it's long past time gas taxes went up across the country.

So you are advocating a regressive tax on people who can't afford a new hybrid or electric car?  The wealthy who can buy a new Tesla should pay less than the guy making minimum wage who has to by a 10 year old used car?

A mileage tax was inevitable as more and more people switched to hybrids or electrics.  Gas taxes have not kept up with inflation while mpg has kept increasing.  Don't like the idea of tracking cars, would prefer if they checked the odometer during inspections.


Why would there be an inspection of electric cars? You think someone should take an hour of their day and pay $50 so a guy can read an odometer? The CA test is for emissions. Electric cars already have an uplink to the mothership, they can just have Tesla tell them the odometer numbers.

Hybrids aren't any different from other super-efficient cars that are coming out these days. Cars are getting more efficient in general. Just raise the tax.
 
kab
2017-12-16 02:41:43 AM  

Bazzlex001: Mileage taxes are bad policy.  They penalize people driving hybrid vehicles that are generally smaller and have less impact on roadways.


Tesla Model 3 curb weight - 3500-3800 lbs
Chevy volt curb weight - 3500 lbs
Nissan Leaf curb weight - 3400-3500 lbs
Tesla P100 curb weight - 4400 - 4900 lbs (oink)
Prius - 3000 lbs

Out of these, only the Prius is arguably lighter than your typical sedan.  You certainly can't expect that eventually decreasing revenue from gas sales isn't going to be made up elsewhere, did you?

Mileage taxes are almost a certainty for future electric vehicles, and honestly I'd be fine with gas taxes going away entirely, and switching to a mileage tax right now.  You'll get used to it.
 
2017-12-16 02:50:22 AM  
stevesporn2000:
Why would there be an inspection of electric cars? You think someone should take an hour of their day and pay $50 so a guy can read an odometer? The CA test is for emissions. Electric cars already have an uplink to the mothership, they can just have Tesla tell them the odometer numbers....

A brake, tire, and headlight safety inspection could be concocted as an excuse to engage EVs in an equivalent of the bi-annual smog-check required of combustion engine vehicles in California. Either would be a good time to check the odometer and apply the tax.
 
2017-12-16 03:09:11 AM  
*reads TFA*

Ohhh, this is the old chasing the electric car users for not paying gas taxes business.

Are there enough of them around in CA that they're actually a broad tax base yet, or are they just chasing the outliers out of a sense of "fairness" and righteous indignation?

/ asking because I have no idea, and TFA did not supply any kind of numbers about EV usage in CA
 
2017-12-16 03:39:58 AM  

starsrift: *reads TFA*

Ohhh, this is the old chasing the electric car users for not paying gas taxes business.

Are there enough of them around in CA that they're actually a broad tax base yet, or are they just chasing the outliers out of a sense of "fairness" and righteous indignation?

/ asking because I have no idea, and TFA did not supply any kind of numbers about EV usage in CA


Electric cars are now 5 percent of California new-car sales

Anecdotally, CA also has a lot of hybrids too, which is relevant because they pay less gas tax per mile than traditional cars.
 
2017-12-16 03:41:39 AM  
Wiki Electric Cars in US

Elecctric Cars In World

Registered plug-in and battery-powered vehicles on roads worldwide rose 60 percent from the year before, according to the Global EV Outlook 2017 report from the Paris-based IEA. Despite the rapid growth, electric vehicles still represent just 0.2 percent of total light-duty vehicles.

 Emphasis mine.

Baltimore Sun Article

In Maryland, only 2,282 electric cars were registered in the state as of December, while more than 350,000 new and 690,000 old vehicles were sold statewide last year, according to the Motor Vehicle Administration.

 So as you can see from above, in Maryland, where I reside, there were a total of 2,282 electric cars registered with the MVA. That's the total count from the beginning of time. But there were over 1 million new and used cars sold in the state that year.

GM cranks out about 35K cars a day. Tesla cranked out 15,800 Model S cars in Q3 2016. It took Tesla 3 months to do half of what GM does in a day. Electric cars are still rare people.

(CNN)The number of heroin users in the United States jumped from 404,000 in 2002 to 948,000 in 2016. So there are far more heroin users in the US than there are electric car owners. Which costs the US more money, Clyde driving an electric car or Clyde needing yet another squirt of naloxone?

 This is a load of manure. My property tax includes a $150 highway tax every year. My house isn't mobile. My lawn mower uses gasoline that includes road tax, I never drive it on the road. My friends bass boat gets filled up with gas from a local station that charges road tax (as all do that I know of). That boat sits in a marina and never hits the road.

The number one selling vehicle in the US is the Ford F150 pickup truck. The number two vehicle is the Chevrolet truck and number three is the Dodge truck. business insider.

 17.4 million cars and trucks sold in the US in 2016 and electric cars?

The final numbers are in. After what was widely considered a disappointing year for EV sales in 2015 (down about 6%) - 2016 was the year of the comeback.
Just over 159,000 new EVs hit the road,
 
2017-12-16 05:03:25 AM  

Krieghund: ReapTheChaos: "One idea would be installing devices that would clock your mileage every time you pull up to the pump or electric car charging station. Or put a tracker on every car."

Why not just check the odometer every year when they do the state inspection and charge accordingly. Sure, people can tamper with the odometer, but any device you install will have that problem.

Because some of us take our cars out of state.


IFTA. Look it up. It is the future of road usage tax for cars, just like it is the present for trucks today.
 
2017-12-16 05:11:24 AM  

Cosmic Cowboy: Boy, it's expensive to be poor.  Can't afford to live close to work so you have to waste your life in traffic, spend more on gas, and now get taxed on top of it.


True. The poorer I've been, the more jobs I've had to work to which I had to commute by car, to job sites that were further away, to places where no direct public transportation was available, and at times, usually during overnight or swing shifts, when no public transportation was running anyway.

And the less money I made, the further away I had to live from my jobs, in order to find a decent apartment. Or, when I was attending school and working at the same time, I needed to drive directly from work to school, sometimes twice on the same day, and couldn't rely on public transportation.

So, on top of annual vehicle registration fees, the gas tax, income tax (from which maintenance fees for roadways should be paid), toll road fees, and sales tax I paid when bringing my car in for repairs, I needed to be penalized, by the mile, at the least likely time in my life when I could afford it.
 
2017-12-16 05:23:12 AM  

Krieghund: starsrift: *reads TFA*

Ohhh, this is the old chasing the electric car users for not paying gas taxes business.

Are there enough of them around in CA that they're actually a broad tax base yet, or are they just chasing the outliers out of a sense of "fairness" and righteous indignation?

/ asking because I have no idea, and TFA did not supply any kind of numbers about EV usage in CA

Electric cars are now 5 percent of California new-car sales

Anecdotally, CA also has a lot of hybrids too, which is relevant because they pay less gas tax per mile than traditional cars.


So, chasing the outliers.

I mean, they will have to eventually move to that model and scrap gas taxes, but I'm betting because they're not doing it to be future-compliant but instead try to chunk up their budget, they want to have both.
 
2017-12-16 05:43:23 AM  

zimbach: stevesporn2000:
Why would there be an inspection of electric cars? You think someone should take an hour of their day and pay $50 so a guy can read an odometer? The CA test is for emissions. Electric cars already have an uplink to the mothership, they can just have Tesla tell them the odometer numbers....

A brake, tire, and headlight safety inspection could be concocted as an excuse to engage EVs in an equivalent of the bi-annual smog-check required of combustion engine vehicles in California. Either would be a good time to check the odometer and apply the tax.


I don't think an annual assessment would be a good idea. The pilot program that CA tested was billed at the rate of 1.8¢ per mile.  A driver that drives 20,000 miles a year probably would not be very happy to see his  (or her) annual car registration jump $360 a year (and they'll probably raise the rate.

The beauty of the gas tax is that it's incidental and (for the most part) hidden. You don't even notice the tax, since it's included in the cost of the gas displayed on the pump. Start breaking it out as a separate line item on a yearly car registration, and people will notice it.

And those that are in, or close to the poverty line?  They will almost certainly have a problem coming up with an extra $300-$500 a year to pay for the mileage tax.
 
2017-12-16 07:17:37 AM  
I'm gonna white line down the 405 on a 500cc 2 stroke just to piss everyone off. Then hop into a culvert and have a drone film it.

Check-bait!
 
2017-12-16 07:44:36 AM  

Farnn: So you are advocating a regressive tax on people who can't afford a new hybrid or electric car?  The wealthy who can buy a new Tesla should pay less than the guy making minimum wage who has to by a 10 year old used car?


Balance it out with a more progressive income and wealth tax and offset it at the bottom end with tax credits

 

The High Llama: So, on top of annual vehicle registration fees, the gas tax, income tax (from which maintenance fees for roadways should be paid), toll road fees, and sales tax I paid when bringing my car in for repairs, I needed to be penalized, by the mile, at the least likely time in my life when I could afford it.


No you didn't need to be penalized, but you need the roads and somebody's got to pay them. They've come up with their idea, now come up with an alternative.
 
2017-12-16 09:01:59 AM  

pueblonative: Farnn: So you are advocating a regressive tax on people who can't afford a new hybrid or electric car?  The wealthy who can buy a new Tesla should pay less than the guy making minimum wage who has to by a 10 year old used car?

Balance it out with a more progressive income and wealth tax and offset it at the bottom end with tax credits

 The High Llama: So, on top of annual vehicle registration fees, the gas tax, income tax (from which maintenance fees for roadways should be paid), toll road fees, and sales tax I paid when bringing my car in for repairs, I needed to be penalized, by the mile, at the least likely time in my life when I could afford it.

No you didn't need to be penalized, but you need the roads and somebody's got to pay them. They've come up with their idea, now come up with an alternative.


First thing they need to do is stop robbing peter to pay paul.
  Of the 5 billion a year the current taxes bring in for roads, sacramento uses 500 mill to subsidize mass transit, takes 100 mill a year for the general fund, and uses 1 billion a year to pay bond debt.
  So, roughly 32 % of the money they take in to maintain the roads is siphoned off before caltrans gets a chance to mismanage the rest.
 
2017-12-16 09:13:45 AM  

Bazzlex001: Mileage taxes are bad policy.  They penalize people driving hybrid vehicles that are generally smaller and have less impact on roadways.

Gas taxes are good policy.  They penalize people driving large vehicles that are fuel inefficient and do more damage to roadways, and they can contribute to people downsizing if they do not need a large vehicle for work/family.

Now, perhaps a mileage tax specifically for owners of EVs would be appropriate.  But it's long past time gas taxes went up across the country.


...I have said for years that if you think gas is expensive now, just wait till you see how much it costs when you don't use as much.
 
2017-12-16 09:57:43 AM  
EV market growing and roads going to crap.

Mileage tax is the new gas tax cause they'll never adjust the gas tax.

/awaits misappropriation of mileage tax money
 
2017-12-16 10:03:52 AM  

Muzzleloader: pueblonative: Farnn: So you are advocating a regressive tax on people who can't afford a new hybrid or electric car?  The wealthy who can buy a new Tesla should pay less than the guy making minimum wage who has to by a 10 year old used car?

Balance it out with a more progressive income and wealth tax and offset it at the bottom end with tax credits

 The High Llama: So, on top of annual vehicle registration fees, the gas tax, income tax (from which maintenance fees for roadways should be paid), toll road fees, and sales tax I paid when bringing my car in for repairs, I needed to be penalized, by the mile, at the least likely time in my life when I could afford it.

No you didn't need to be penalized, but you need the roads and somebody's got to pay them. They've come up with their idea, now come up with an alternative.

First thing they need to do is stop robbing peter to pay paul.
  Of the 5 billion a year the current taxes bring in for roads, sacramento uses 500 mill to subsidize mass transit, takes 100 mill a year for the general fund, and uses 1 billion a year to pay bond debt.
  So, roughly 32 % of the money they take in to maintain the roads is siphoned off before caltrans gets a chance to mismanage the rest.


All right, so suggest it to a California lawmaker as an alternative to a milege tax and see which one makes more sense and addresses the problem better.
 
2017-12-16 10:22:06 AM  

ZAZ: The mileage tax they are talking about is a money grab with a side dish of surveillance. Washington is handing out money to lobby for and implement it, so states are jumping on board.

The mileage tax I was expecting to read about but didn't is a congestion fee that would charge about 10 cents a mile to drive when the freeways are busy. That's only half a money grab. It aims to solve a real problem, and if it were implemented by decent people instead of government officials it might even work.


You sound like you agree with the rocket scientists in the comments. "Damned libs, worship government, etc."

You're right! It should all be privatized so that efficient private companies can do it right! Probably by charging per-mile fees.

Oh, wait....

Protip: Private efficiency most often means efficient at relieving you of your money.
 
2017-12-16 10:48:00 AM  

stevesporn2000: Farnn: Bazzlex001: Mileage taxes are bad policy.  They penalize people driving hybrid vehicles that are generally smaller and have less impact on roadways.

Gas taxes are good policy.  They penalize people driving large vehicles that are fuel inefficient and do more damage to roadways, and they can contribute to people downsizing if they do not need a large vehicle for work/family.

Now, perhaps a mileage tax specifically for owners of EVs would be appropriate.  But it's long past time gas taxes went up across the country.

So you are advocating a regressive tax on people who can't afford a new hybrid or electric car?  The wealthy who can buy a new Tesla should pay less than the guy making minimum wage who has to by a 10 year old used car?

A mileage tax was inevitable as more and more people switched to hybrids or electrics.  Gas taxes have not kept up with inflation while mpg has kept increasing.  Don't like the idea of tracking cars, would prefer if they checked the odometer during inspections.

Why would there be an inspection of electric cars? You think someone should take an hour of their day and pay $50 so a guy can read an odometer? The CA test is for emissions. Electric cars already have an uplink to the mothership, they can just have Tesla tell them the odometer numbers.

Hybrids aren't any different from other super-efficient cars that are coming out these days. Cars are getting more efficient in general. Just raise the tax.


I didn't realize California doesn't require safety inspections, so that wouldn't work for electric vehicles.  But just raising the gas tax doesn't work.  First it hits poor people harder because they can't afford more efficient cars, second it still doesn't tax electric vehicles for road use, and third it would have to keep rising as cars get more efficient.

The better solution as someone mentioned here is just do a straight mileage tax and get rid of gas taxes.
 
2017-12-16 11:21:21 AM  
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-12-16 11:25:49 AM  
This is fantastic policy.

With EV's and other vehicles getting a free ride by avoiding gas taxes we can now capture the wear and tear these vehicles inflict. It will ensure continued funding of infrastructure even when revenue from gas taxes fall. If we do not reverse gas taxes it will still be cheaper to drive EV's and hybrids at the margin and continue to penalize gas guzzlers. Combine this with a good carbon tax ($1.00 per gallon of gasoline) we might actually get somewhere.

Now some people are concerned about privacy. Well that's easy, we require insurance on cars. Require that insurance be on a per mile basis and apply the tax to the insurance. Easy Peasy.
 
2017-12-16 06:37:32 PM  
Have a lottery for people to even use cars.  Make it cost $5000 for a chance at even being able to legally drive a car in CA and cap the number of permits at 1 million.

Tons of money and no wear and tear on the roads.  Plus the pollution will go down.  Win-win!
 
2017-12-16 06:43:10 PM  

ptelg: This is fantastic policy.

With EV's and other vehicles getting a free ride by avoiding gas taxes we can now capture the wear and tear these vehicles inflict. It will ensure continued funding of infrastructure even when revenue from gas taxes fall. If we do not reverse gas taxes it will still be cheaper to drive EV's and hybrids at the margin and continue to penalize gas guzzlers. Combine this with a good carbon tax ($1.00 per gallon of gasoline) we might actually get somewhere.

Now some people are concerned about privacy. Well that's easy, we require insurance on cars. Require that insurance be on a per mile basis and apply the tax to the insurance. Easy Peasy.


Not everybody in CA drives with insurance.  We have a huge population of ininsured drivers.  Abouy 15% are ininsured.  Get those people to get insured and pay the taxes, and I will jump on board.
 
kab
2017-12-16 07:35:21 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: ptelg: This is fantastic policy.

With EV's and other vehicles getting a free ride by avoiding gas taxes we can now capture the wear and tear these vehicles inflict. It will ensure continued funding of infrastructure even when revenue from gas taxes fall. If we do not reverse gas taxes it will still be cheaper to drive EV's and hybrids at the margin and continue to penalize gas guzzlers. Combine this with a good carbon tax ($1.00 per gallon of gasoline) we might actually get somewhere.

Now some people are concerned about privacy. Well that's easy, we require insurance on cars. Require that insurance be on a per mile basis and apply the tax to the insurance. Easy Peasy.

Not everybody in CA drives with insurance.  We have a huge population of ininsured drivers.  Abouy 15% are ininsured.  Get those people to get insured and pay the taxes, and I will jump on board.


Odd.  Youd think that if there was any state where insurance was mandatory, it'd be nannyfornia, especially considering how uptight they are about modded cars etc
 
2017-12-16 08:09:43 PM  

kab: AmbassadorBooze: ptelg: This is fantastic policy.

With EV's and other vehicles getting a free ride by avoiding gas taxes we can now capture the wear and tear these vehicles inflict. It will ensure continued funding of infrastructure even when revenue from gas taxes fall. If we do not reverse gas taxes it will still be cheaper to drive EV's and hybrids at the margin and continue to penalize gas guzzlers. Combine this with a good carbon tax ($1.00 per gallon of gasoline) we might actually get somewhere.

Now some people are concerned about privacy. Well that's easy, we require insurance on cars. Require that insurance be on a per mile basis and apply the tax to the insurance. Easy Peasy.

Not everybody in CA drives with insurance.  We have a huge population of ininsured drivers.  Abouy 15% are ininsured.  Get those people to get insured and pay the taxes, and I will jump on board.

Odd.  Youd think that if there was any state where insurance was mandatory, it'd be nannyfornia, especially considering how uptight they are about modded cars etc


Insurance is mandatory, but they weren't getting reports from insurers if it lapsed. Maybe now it's happening.

As far as modded cars go, mod whatever, wait for a fix it ticket, get officer friendly you know to sign off on it, or revert the mod, do step one, reinstall mod.

I don't think I can recall someone getting pulled over for a noisy tailpipe ever on the road (car or MC) but I got the stick in the muffler and a dB test riding a new WR250F 4 stroke stock at the smallest loneliest OHV in the state.

I think our enforcement selection is out of proportion sometimes. I don't begrudge people not wanting a 110dB dirt bike screaming all over, but I really don't want to hear the same in a rice rocket or blown/bored car, as it happens way more often and is completely obvious from a mile away.

\ rant off
\\ hope I didn't go too far off topic
 
2017-12-16 08:15:34 PM  

kab: AmbassadorBooze: ptelg: This is fantastic policy.

With EV's and other vehicles getting a free ride by avoiding gas taxes we can now capture the wear and tear these vehicles inflict. It will ensure continued funding of infrastructure even when revenue from gas taxes fall. If we do not reverse gas taxes it will still be cheaper to drive EV's and hybrids at the margin and continue to penalize gas guzzlers. Combine this with a good carbon tax ($1.00 per gallon of gasoline) we might actually get somewhere.

Now some people are concerned about privacy. Well that's easy, we require insurance on cars. Require that insurance be on a per mile basis and apply the tax to the insurance. Easy Peasy.

Not everybody in CA drives with insurance.  We have a huge population of ininsured drivers.  Abouy 15% are ininsured.  Get those people to get insured and pay the taxes, and I will jump on board.

Odd.  Youd think that if there was any state where insurance was mandatory, it'd be nannyfornia, especially considering how uptight they are about modded cars etc


It is mandatory, and we even issue licenses to illegal aliens, so they don't even have an excuse from that angle.  So, everybody (legal citizen/resident and illegal alien) shoyld have insurance, but 15 perceny of the whole still doesnt, and that is a lot of people.
 
2017-12-16 11:15:23 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: kab: AmbassadorBooze: ptelg: This is fantastic policy.

With EV's and other vehicles getting a free ride by avoiding gas taxes we can now capture the wear and tear these vehicles inflict. It will ensure continued funding of infrastructure even when revenue from gas taxes fall. If we do not reverse gas taxes it will still be cheaper to drive EV's and hybrids at the margin and continue to penalize gas guzzlers. Combine this with a good carbon tax ($1.00 per gallon of gasoline) we might actually get somewhere.

Now some people are concerned about privacy. Well that's easy, we require insurance on cars. Require that insurance be on a per mile basis and apply the tax to the insurance. Easy Peasy.

Not everybody in CA drives with insurance.  We have a huge population of ininsured drivers.  Abouy 15% are ininsured.  Get those people to get insured and pay the taxes, and I will jump on board.

Odd.  Youd think that if there was any state where insurance was mandatory, it'd be nannyfornia, especially considering how uptight they are about modded cars etc

It is mandatory, and we even issue licenses to illegal aliens, so they don't even have an excuse from that angle.  So, everybody (legal citizen/resident and illegal alien) shoyld have insurance, but 15 perceny of the whole still doesnt, and that is a lot of people.


Politifact is saying the claim of 7.4% is accurate by Jerry Brown.  Even the under 65 group at 8.4% is considered low.  I wouldn't doubt the 15-20% a decade ago, but I think it's just too easy and cheap to get liability at this point.
 
2017-12-17 01:24:25 AM  
More like $8 a month.  fark that commute.
 
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