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(YouTube)   A basic primer on UBI, what it is, how it works, and what people actually do with UBI   ( youtube.com) divider line
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974 clicks; posted to Politics » on 07 Dec 2017 at 7:55 PM (10 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-12-07 01:54:34 PM  
but but...poors will just never work, then who will cut my lawn!!!!

and what if a "brown" person is given money too!
 
2017-12-07 02:04:29 PM  

JustToLetYouKnowFriend: but but...poors will just never work, then who will cut my lawn!!!!

and what if a "brown" person is given money too!


This..... honestly, there are a lot of things that if you added to the question "and we'd make sure only white people got to take advantage of it", you'd see Republican voter approval of it jump to around 70-80%.... all of a sudden, the "socialism" argument would vanish.
 
2017-12-07 03:17:52 PM  
Here's another reason UBI or GBI is going to become VERY important in the new few years.

Humans Need Not Apply
Youtube 7Pq-S557XQU
 
2017-12-07 03:18:14 PM  
and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSKi8​H​fcxEk
The Rise of the Machines – Why Automation is Different this Time
Youtube WSKi8HfcxEk
 
2017-12-07 04:28:44 PM  
 
2017-12-07 05:51:29 PM  
Zpack will usually clears up a UBI in a couple days...
 
2017-12-07 06:05:41 PM  
They'll just spend it on booze and women and movies.
 
2017-12-07 06:11:03 PM  
 
2017-12-07 06:17:22 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Counterpoint:

Universal Basic Income Is a Neoliberal Plot To Make You Poorer


img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-12-07 06:52:07 PM  
My defense of UBI last week got smartied 116 times. Argument over, UBI for U!
 
2017-12-07 07:25:52 PM  

GRCooper: My defense of UBI last week got smartied 116 times. Argument over, UBI for U!


Could you repost it here for the thread?
 
2017-12-07 07:42:40 PM  
img.fark.netView Full Size


R.I.P Ubu
 
2017-12-07 07:53:12 PM  

dstanley: [img.fark.net image 320x180]

R.I.P Ubu


Really brought you're A game huh? Have a pity funny on me.
 
2017-12-07 07:57:49 PM  
That's like having a discussion in Yemen about opening a chain of convenience stores.
 
2017-12-07 07:57:56 PM  
"You down with UBI?" "Yeah, you know me!"
 
2017-12-07 07:58:43 PM  
Hopefully you can see a doctor and get rid of it then.
 
2017-12-07 08:03:18 PM  
This would usher in the end times because the poors would just blow it on drugs, alcohol, steak, and lobster, 'cause that's all the poors ever want to do other than get pregnant. Don't get me wrong, we love their fetuses. But damn, when those fetuses get born, they're really a drag on society. The white ones are okay because at least they have some potential. The other ones are just trouble, if you know what I mean.
 
2017-12-07 08:03:38 PM  

JustToLetYouKnowFriend: GRCooper: My defense of UBI last week got smartied 116 times. Argument over, UBI for U!

Could you repost it here for the thread?


It's not all that. He actually just stuck 116 pieces of candy on the screen after he wrote it.

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-12-07 08:04:23 PM  

JustToLetYouKnowFriend: Here's another reason UBI or GBI is going to become VERY important in the new few years.

[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/7Pq-S557​XQU?start=4]


JustToLetYouKnowFriend: and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSKi8H​fcxEk
[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/WSKi8Hfc​xEk]


Emphatically this.

What's funny is that the last year has turned me off on UBI ... almost entirely because the very people it would benefit most are the people who voted in this fiasco.  It's going to be incredibly necessary, but I'm starting to think canned food and shotguns are the way to go.  Because I'm not sure I could ever persuade them to abandon their notions.

Gremlins 2, Canned food and shot guns.
Youtube qsMc-IswG3w
 
2017-12-07 08:04:30 PM  

Bith Set Me Up: "You down with UBI?" "Yeah, you know me!"


img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-12-07 08:05:52 PM  
At some point in 40 or 50 years, yes it may become necessary.

At this point it's way too early and would eliminate the main incentive that has lead to most technological and business innovations during the past few centuries.
 
2017-12-07 08:08:01 PM  
Sad. I thought it was going to be about IBU's (International Bitterness Units)
 
2017-12-07 08:09:00 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Counterpoint:

Universal Basic Income Is a Neoliberal Plot To Make You Poorer


That article was essentially, "Some people want to implement UBI in a way that would be bad, therefore UBI is bad."  It would be like the Republicans suggesting a single-payer heathcare system in the US that was paid for by killing healthy poor people and selling their organs and some guy writing an article about how single-payer is just a conservative plot to kill the poor.
 
2017-12-07 08:11:57 PM  

moviemarketing: At some point in 40 or 50 years, yes it may become necessary.

At this point it's way too early and would eliminate the main incentive that has lead to most technological and business innovations during the past few centuries.


That makes zero sense, unless your assertion is that most technological and business innovations of the past few centuries were born out of people not wanting to be homeless and starve to death?  In which case, I would love to know what you're smoking.
 
2017-12-07 08:27:51 PM  
M-O-O-N spells UBIquitous!
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-12-07 08:29:56 PM  
i.ytimg.comView Full Size


Hey guys, what's going on in here?
 
2017-12-07 08:30:46 PM  
The other day, AlphaGo Zero spent four hours learning chess. It took its knowledge and made one of the top chess playing programs into it's chew toy. Chess. The game humans have studied for centuries. The game it took our top AI researchers decades to figure out how to play at professional levels. And it learned it to grandmaster level in four hours.

So, what do you do for a living? How long will it take software like AlphaGo Zero learn your job? How long before it does it better than you? How long before you are redundant?

The idea that the vast majority of our jobs might be redundant is not a theoretical question. Waymo and Tesla are aiming at putting every trucker, taxi and uber driver out of business in a few years. Sucks to be them? Or should we rethink what employment means?
 
2017-12-07 08:55:36 PM  

waffle299: The other day, AlphaGo Zero spent four hours learning chess. It took its knowledge and made one of the top chess playing programs into it's chew toy. Chess. The game humans have studied for centuries. The game it took our top AI researchers decades to figure out how to play at professional levels. And it learned it to grandmaster level in four hours.

So, what do you do for a living? How long will it take software like AlphaGo Zero learn your job? How long before it does it better than you? How long before you are redundant?

The idea that the vast majority of our jobs might be redundant is not a theoretical question. Waymo and Tesla are aiming at putting every trucker, taxi and uber driver out of business in a few years. Sucks to be them? Or should we rethink what employment means?


The trucking industry employs what? 1.5 MILLUON truckers? What would happen if tomorrow 1.5 million Americans lost their jobs? Because depending on the timeline, lets say 20 years, that's what's going to happen.

Retail is also taking its lumps as Amazon eliminates most box stores.

3d print is still sorting itself out, but also on the horizon.

Hurry up, I want to live in Star Trek times already.
 
2017-12-07 08:59:19 PM  

moviemarketing: At some point in 40 or 50 years, yes it may become necessary.

At this point it's way too early and would eliminate the main incentive that has lead to most technological and business innovations during the past few centuries.


I can only speak for myself, but I'd still work under an  UBI system.  ( I like luxury & travel, and I bet UBI income wouldn't entirely pay for what I desire...)

/ that being said, It would be nice to have a permanent  UBI safety net.
 
2017-12-07 09:03:40 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Counterpoint:

Universal Basic Income Is a Neoliberal Plot To Make You Poorer


...if the UBI is set to a level where you can buy your own necessities for survival then a lot of social programmes can be scrapped and their funding rolled into the UBI programme.  That isn't a "neoliberal plot to make you poorer", it's basic resource allocation.
 
kab
2017-12-07 09:24:27 PM  
Your average temporarily embarrassed millionaire would rather see widespread starvation than accept the idea of someone just being given money.
 
2017-12-07 09:37:19 PM  

Flaumig: moviemarketing: At some point in 40 or 50 years, yes it may become necessary.

At this point it's way too early and would eliminate the main incentive that has lead to most technological and business innovations during the past few centuries.

That makes zero sense, unless your assertion is that most technological and business innovations of the past few centuries were born out of people not wanting to be homeless and starve to death?  In which case, I would love to know what you're smoking.


Yes. Somewhere out there is a welfare recipient who's never going to patent and license their perpetual motion machine.
 
2017-12-07 09:38:51 PM  

Murkanen: Dusk-You-n-Me: Counterpoint:

Universal Basic Income Is a Neoliberal Plot To Make You Poorer

...if the UBI is set to a level where you can buy your own necessities for survival then a lot of social programmes can be scrapped and their funding rolled into the UBI programme.  That isn't a "neoliberal plot to make you poorer", it's basic resource allocation.


The problem is tons of Americans think that some group of the other people are farking morons who would take that cash and blow it all on gambling or drugs or prostitutes or luxury foods or whatever other crap they believe is undeserved. They kinda like the idea of forcing people to buy food with food stamps. And get housing through Section 8 vouchers.
 
2017-12-07 09:48:31 PM  

JustToLetYouKnowFriend: Here's another reason UBI or GBI is going to become VERY important in the new few years.

[YouTube video: Humans Need Not Apply]


"You are still young and stupid. Human life has no value. Haven't you learned that yet, Takeshi, with all you've seen? It has no value, intrinsic to itself. Machines cost money to build. Raw materials cost money to extract. But people?" She made a tiny spitting sound. "You can always get some more people. they reproduce like cancer cells, whether you want them or not. They are abundant, Takeshi. Why should they be valuable? Do you know that it costs us less to recruit and use up a real snuff whore than it does to set up and run the virtual equivalent format. Real human flesh is cheaper than a machine. It's the axiomatic truth of our times."

- Altered Carbon
 
2017-12-07 10:26:40 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Counterpoint:

Universal Basic Income Is a Neoliberal Plot To Make You Poorer


Thanks for this.
 
2017-12-07 10:39:52 PM  

Murkanen: Dusk-You-n-Me: Counterpoint:

Universal Basic Income Is a Neoliberal Plot To Make You Poorer

...if the UBI is set to a level where you can buy your own necessities for survival then a lot of social programmes can be scrapped and their funding rolled into the UBI programme.  That isn't a "neoliberal plot to make you poorer", it's basic resource allocation.


The straw man in the article is the belief that UBI would/could eliminate all other social structure. And it, alone, can't.  I have a nephew with late-stage muscular dystrophy.  Saying "yoink Medicaid, yoink direct assistance, yoink must-issue health insurance, here's your $9000/year UBI check, don't spend it all in one place" isn't a sane option.  It was Milton Friedman's idea, yes, but he was also a G*d damned sociopath, so please don't confuse his on-again--off-again support for one version of UBI with the general concept.
 
2017-12-07 10:58:04 PM  

waffle299: The other day, AlphaGo Zero spent four hours learning chess. It took its knowledge and made one of the top chess playing programs into it's chew toy. Chess. The game humans have studied for centuries. The game it took our top AI researchers decades to figure out how to play at professional levels. And it learned it to grandmaster level in four hours.

So, what do you do for a living? How long will it take software like AlphaGo Zero learn your job? How long before it does it better than you? How long before you are redundant?

The idea that the vast majority of our jobs might be redundant is not a theoretical question. Waymo and Tesla are aiming at putting every trucker, taxi and uber driver out of business in a few years. Sucks to be them? Or should we rethink what employment means?


The science fiction novel my wife and I are writing is set in a society with a permanent "meat" unemployment rate in the mid-90% area. It's basically run by a semi-benevolent AI. Since everyone in the society is receiving (1) lots of free stuff (basic food, clothing. shelter, medical, education, etc.) and (2) a monthly equal share of the aggregate "production surplus value" created by the totally automated factories, many people volunteer to do useful stuff. Boredom due from not being on the hamster wheel also fosters a largely artisanal "aftermarket" free market system that meets manufactured needs and luxuries, which actually does provide employment. Our thought is that a social support network that actually guaranteed no-starvation-no-homeless status for all citizens would in fact turbocharge a free-market economy (i.e.: worry about your family going hungry often makes one timid in the world of innovation and risk-taking). A "FARP/PET" (Fully Automated Robotized & Programmed / Private Enterprise Tier) economy would blow the socks off the mixed crony capitalist system we currently have. The PET portion would have many spectacular successes and even more spectacular failures.

This is all actually plot-relevant, as the psychological changes (and damage) wrought by this system drive the reasons for the characters doing what they do. A social order and government that has more wealth and sheer physical power than it knows what to do with.... And yet whose culture is being fragmented by the constant adoption of new trends to stave off boredom.... And whose citizens are constantly searching for purpose and meaning (having evolved to respond to scarcity-economy social and economic cues.
 
2017-12-07 11:59:06 PM  
Tax rebate on first $12,000 due.

Is that not what you expected?

Food stamps for all. Rent/mortgage rebate for all. Utility rebate for all. Need anything else?

Keep everything as just a base dollar amount. Maybe percentage back after the base.
 
2017-12-08 12:06:57 AM  
"The standard deduction for single taxpayers and married couples filing separately is $6,350 in 2017, up from $6,300 in 2016; for married couples filing jointly, the standard deduction is $12,700,"

"The Republican proposal is to eliminate the exemptions altogether, and roughly double the standard deduction, to $12,000 for single people and $24,000 for couples."

Doesn't this give you your UBI of $1000 per month?
 
2017-12-08 12:36:45 AM  

JustToLetYouKnowFriend: but but...poors will just never work, then who will cut my lawn!!!!

and what if a "brown" person is given money too!


If you ask Paul Ryan he will tell you they will get trapped under the safety net in a cycle of poverty where people learn they don't have to work. He would much rather people get stuck in a cycle of poverty where people learn they can never leave work.
 
2017-12-08 01:49:22 AM  
img.fark.netView Full Size


Good dog.
 
2017-12-08 03:26:59 AM  

Serious Black: The problem is tons of Americans think that some group of the other people are farking morons who would take that cash and blow it all on gambling or drugs or prostitutes or luxury foods or whatever other crap they believe is undeserved.


No need to beat around the bush... you can just call them what they are: the top 1%.
=Smidge=
 
2017-12-08 04:01:21 AM  
There is a significant problem with UBI, having to do with mental health. Some people just do not know how to manage money or their life, and these people will be permanently stuck at the bottom rungs because they just cannot manage the complexities of paying monthly bills and so forth.

Even if UBI becomes a standard and all other forms of social support are removed, these people will still be living between garbage bins in an alley somewhere because they just can't handle their affairs on their own.

Also there will be those with mental issues who will get conned out of their UBI by criminal elements, or end up living behind the dumpster because they stupidly just give it all away.

,

I believe there needs to be a two tier system, where alongside UBI, there is still also free basic housing, with government issued food, clothing, toiletries, public transportation, etc. It would be available to anyone that can't or won't take care of these things by themselves, and available in virtually every town across the nation for as long as it is needed, with no strings attached.

But it would also be set up to be highly efficient and low cost to maintain, while also designed to be boring, utilitarian, hard-wearing, and as bland and cookie-cutter generic as possible.

All housing facilities would be simple concrete block or cast concrete multi-story towers, with each residence being just a one-room "studio" with an attached private bathroom, that has a hand sink and a deep utility sink, a compact walk-through shower area with a folding wall bench, and a prison-style shatterproof stainless steel toilet.

All rooms and hallways would be no-smoking, and provided with simple stamped stainless steel, long-life furniture. All hallways would have 24hr all-seeing security cameras, to monitor for problems and resolve resident disputes.

The goal of this is to try to give residents an incentive to move up in the world. These free apartments would cover the basic needs for those who just can't handle managing their life, but it also make people want to save up their UBI or start going to work or to school... to be able to to buy more personalized items, goods, services, or an actual rented apartment of their own.
 
2017-12-08 05:09:02 AM  

Flaumig: moviemarketing: At some point in 40 or 50 years, yes it may become necessary.

At this point it's way too early and would eliminate the main incentive that has lead to most technological and business innovations during the past few centuries.

That makes zero sense, unless your assertion is that most technological and business innovations of the past few centuries were born out of people not wanting to be homeless and starve to death?  In which case, I would love to know what you're smoking.


Absolutely, the desire to accumulate wealth is what has driven most innovation during the past few hundred years.
 
2017-12-08 05:12:05 AM  

UsikFark: Flaumig: moviemarketing: At some point in 40 or 50 years, yes it may become necessary.

At this point it's way too early and would eliminate the main incentive that has lead to most technological and business innovations during the past few centuries.

That makes zero sense, unless your assertion is that most technological and business innovations of the past few centuries were born out of people not wanting to be homeless and starve to death?  In which case, I would love to know what you're smoking.

Yes. Somewhere out there is a welfare recipient who's never going to patent and license their perpetual motion machine.


Yes, or simply start some small business that goes on to hire a few more people.
 
2017-12-08 05:15:56 AM  
As if the problem in poor neighborhoods is lack of stuff.
 
2017-12-08 06:36:00 AM  

moviemarketing: Flaumig: moviemarketing: At some point in 40 or 50 years, yes it may become necessary.

At this point it's way too early and would eliminate the main incentive that has lead to most technological and business innovations during the past few centuries.

That makes zero sense, unless your assertion is that most technological and business innovations of the past few centuries were born out of people not wanting to be homeless and starve to death?  In which case, I would love to know what you're smoking.

Absolutely, the desire to accumulate wealth is what has driven most innovation during the past few hundred years.


No it isn't, and it's not even close to the top reason, accumulation of wealth in fact tends to stifle innovation because they don't like competition.  Just take a look at how we still cling to the internal combustion engine as our main form of transportation and shiat on anyone who even tries to do something different.

If you want to come up with a reason for innovation that isn't the reality that people just like building and inventing stuff because its part of the human condition, you could at least go and say it is because we like killing each other a lot.

There are even books on it if you want to educate yourself before you make a fool of yourself on the internet again.

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
kab
2017-12-08 10:32:57 AM  
Greymalkin:
If you want to come up with a reason for innovation that isn't the reality that people just like building and inventing stuff because its part of the human condition, you could at least go and say it is because we like killing each other a lot.

People like building and inventing things, sure.   If you think reproducing and distributing said inventions to the masses has anything other than a monetary motive, you have a delusionally optimistic view of what drives people in a capitalist society.

War advancing tech (which is also true) is somewhat of a different topic.
 
2017-12-08 11:09:40 AM  
UBI has aready been tried. This is what happens


img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-12-08 11:33:08 AM  
moviemarketing:

Absolutely, the desire to accumulate wealth is what has driven most innovation during the past few hundred years

Greed isn't what drives people to discover and innovate, a passion for what you're doing and curiosity are what drive people to discovery and innovate.
 
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