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(CNN)   When it comes to sexual harassment, are men really that stupid?   ( cnn.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, sexual harassment, George W. Bush, George H. W. Bush, women, good-natured manner, Sen. Al Franken, Rep. John Conyers, George H.W. Bush  
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599 clicks; posted to Discussion » on 23 Nov 2017 at 3:10 AM (12 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-11-22 10:13:00 PM  
Tl;dr - Yes.
 
2017-11-22 10:16:09 PM  
Yes.  Stupid and entitled is a deadly combination.
 
2017-11-22 10:42:43 PM  
Some are, some aren't. I save up all my sexual harassment and give it to one extremely beautiful woman. She has the opportunity to murder me in my sleep every night and hasn't done so. Our first date was over forty years ago.
 
2017-11-22 10:53:43 PM  
Yes. But only the ones who have been getting away with it for decades.
 
2017-11-22 10:55:26 PM  
I can't speak for the 3.5 billion men worldwide. I like to think I'm not that stupid, but I could be a victim of the Dunning-Kruger effect or I could well be part of a statistical outlier that can be ignored.
 
2017-11-22 10:55:52 PM  

dv-ous: Yes. But only the ones who have been getting away with it for decades.


Which is to say, if you've been doing something since the '70s and nobody has complained as far as you know or remember, because drugs are awesome, then wouldn't you be a bit surprised and confused if all of a sudden your lawyer and agent were calling you telling you about all the work you were suddenly losing because of something you did 30-40 years previously?

Yeah, they shouldn't have done it in the first place, but the "Bwah? No U!" reaction is actually pretty understandable.
 
2017-11-22 11:04:24 PM  
If you can get through the day on a regular basis, you know it is wrong.  Because the only way you can function in society is to read non-verbal clues.  You know when you are interacting with someone and they are uncomfortable.  Otherwise you would either (a) have been beaten bloody on multiple occasions long ago, or (b) have copped a feel off of your grandmother.  If neither applies to you, you know you are being a shiatstain and either don't care or derive pleasure from it.  But there is no way you get through life reasonably well and not know what you are doing is wrong from her reaction.
 
2017-11-22 11:24:40 PM  
I thought if a headline asked a questioon the answer was "No"....

/I confused
 
2017-11-23 12:01:03 AM  
Have you met us?
 
2017-11-23 12:02:28 AM  
Yes.  And if not in fact then in thought.

Women seem to think we are deep and thoughtful and must understand how obnoxious and rude we are.

And you often still think this even after watching us pick our noses as though we are mining for gold.

Shaved apes...and sometimes the razor was really dull...
 
2017-11-23 12:04:00 AM  
img.fark.netView Full Size


Some folks just don't think it's all that big of a deal.
 
2017-11-23 12:18:28 AM  

fusillade762: [img.fark.net image 850x477][View Full Size image _x_]

Some folks just don't think it's all that big of a deal.


In fairness, Republican voters are just relieved it's grown women and not little boys.
 
2017-11-23 12:25:05 AM  

fusillade762: [img.fark.net image 850x477]

Some folks just don't think it's all that big of a deal.


What would a similar poll in mid-1999 looked like?
 
2017-11-23 02:32:31 AM  
Yes. Next question please.
 
2017-11-23 02:46:32 AM  

fusillade762: [img.fark.net image 850x477]

Some folks just don't think it's all that big of a deal.


And they are using that as a hammer to break apart the DNC.
It's a shame having a conscience makes the party vulnerable to Gop manipulation
 
2017-11-23 02:55:07 AM  
When we men are kids , nobody sits us down and tells us the proper way to court a woman we are interested in. So we all sort of build our own rules about how to act around women. Some think power or noteriaty allows you to do whatever you want.
 
2017-11-23 03:08:29 AM  

dailygrinds: Tl;dr - Yes.


I'll get the lights
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-11-23 03:12:05 AM  
 Yes.
 
2017-11-23 03:29:00 AM  
When an environment exists where certain behaviors go unpunished, then those behaviors become common place.
 
2017-11-23 04:16:29 AM  
Hey, sugar! How 'bout another beer!

/Don't make me ask twice now.
 
2017-11-23 04:27:02 AM  
"Two in every three men surveyed didn't think repeated unwanted invitations to drinks, dinner, or dates was sexual harassment."

So is that the rule then? Seems pretty broad and open. What constitutes "repeated", and how is "unwanted" to be determined?

If I ask a woman if she wan'ts to get a drink after work and she says "Oh, sorry, I have other plans", then I ask her again two weeks later, is two times qualify as repeated? Was simply saying "I have other plans" the first time a clear enough indication that it was an unwanted invitation?

Lets say I ask if a woman would like to get dinner this Friday, and she says no, (for whatever reason), then I follow up with asking if she would like to go some other time, does that qualify as repeated?

What if I ask a woman out and she tells me she's seeing someone. A month later I hear she's not happy with the person and considering breaking up, so I ask again. Two months after that they finally break up, am I allowed to ask her out a third time?

I get their point, repeatedly badgering a woman who's made it clear she has no interest in you is harassment, but it seems to me that there are so many variables to that situation that it would be impossible to define it as simply "repeated unwanted invitations".
 
2017-11-23 04:31:24 AM  

ReapTheChaos: "Two in every three men surveyed didn't think repeated unwanted invitations to drinks, dinner, or dates was sexual harassment."

So is that the rule then? Seems pretty broad and open. What constitutes "repeated", and how is "unwanted" to be determined?

If I ask a woman if she wan'ts to get a drink after work and she says "Oh, sorry, I have other plans", then I ask her again two weeks later, is two times qualify as repeated? Was simply saying "I have other plans" the first time a clear enough indication that it was an unwanted invitation?

Lets say I ask if a woman would like to get dinner this Friday, and she says no, (for whatever reason), then I follow up with asking if she would like to go some other time, does that qualify as repeated?

What if I ask a woman out and she tells me she's seeing someone. A month later I hear she's not happy with the person and considering breaking up, so I ask again. Two months after that they finally break up, am I allowed to ask her out a third time?

I get their point, repeatedly badgering a woman who's made it clear she has no interest in you is harassment, but it seems to me that there are so many variables to that situation that it would be impossible to define it as simply "repeated unwanted invitations".


Repeated unwanted invitations are how my both pairs of my grandparents got started.
 
2017-11-23 04:41:47 AM  

ReapTheChaos: I get their point, repeatedly badgering a woman who's made it clear she has no interest in you is harassment, but it seems to me that there are so many variables to that situation that it would be impossible to define it as simply "repeated unwanted invitations".


Family Guy - James Bond 50 No's, 1 Yes
Youtube 9RRhhewFqyw
 
2017-11-23 04:48:34 AM  

ReapTheChaos: "Two in every three men surveyed didn't think repeated unwanted invitations to drinks, dinner, or dates was sexual harassment."

So is that the rule then? Seems pretty broad and open. What constitutes "repeated", and how is "unwanted" to be determined?

If I ask a woman if she wan'ts to get a drink after work and she says "Oh, sorry, I have other plans", then I ask her again two weeks later, is two times qualify as repeated? Was simply saying "I have other plans" the first time a clear enough indication that it was an unwanted invitation?

Lets say I ask if a woman would like to get dinner this Friday, and she says no, (for whatever reason), then I follow up with asking if she would like to go some other time, does that qualify as repeated?

What if I ask a woman out and she tells me she's seeing someone. A month later I hear she's not happy with the person and considering breaking up, so I ask again. Two months after that they finally break up, am I allowed to ask her out a third time?

I get their point, repeatedly badgering a woman who's made it clear she has no interest in you is harassment, but it seems to me that there are so many variables to that situation that it would be impossible to define it as simply "repeated unwanted invitations".


Howabout standing outside her window holding a boombox -- Is that alright?
 
2017-11-23 05:10:30 AM  

aerojockey: fusillade762: [img.fark.net image 850x477][View Full Size image _x_]

Some folks just don't think it's all that big of a deal.

> In fairness, Republican voters are just relieved it's grown women

femalesand not little boys.

FTFY

/seems "grown" is not really a concern these days
 
2017-11-23 05:50:05 AM  

ReapTheChaos: "Two in every three men surveyed didn't think repeated unwanted invitations to drinks, dinner, or dates was sexual harassment."

So is that the rule then? Seems pretty broad and open. What constitutes "repeated", and how is "unwanted" to be determined?

If I ask a woman if she wan'ts to get a drink after work and she says "Oh, sorry, I have other plans", then I ask her again two weeks later, is two times qualify as repeated? Was simply saying "I have other plans" the first time a clear enough indication that it was an unwanted invitation?

Lets say I ask if a woman would like to get dinner this Friday, and she says no, (for whatever reason), then I follow up with asking if she would like to go some other time, does that qualify as repeated?

What if I ask a woman out and she tells me she's seeing someone. A month later I hear she's not happy with the person and considering breaking up, so I ask again. Two months after that they finally break up, am I allowed to ask her out a third time?

I get their point, repeatedly badgering a woman who's made it clear she has no interest in you is harassment, but it seems to me that there are so many variables to that situation that it would be impossible to define it as simply "repeated unwanted invitations".


How about have a little game? You sound just like the guy women complain about. They let you down lightly, and instead of taking the hint, you badger them every couple of weeks.

Look man, I'll give you a little advice. If you ask a woman at work out, or any woman you see on a regular basis, and she gives you one of those reasons, don't sweat it. When you see her after that, just continue to make small talk with her. Pay attention to what she talks about and build your small talk sessions of her interest, don't ask her out again. Trust me, it may or may not build from there with her, but other women will take notice. And none of this requires being that creepy guy that is badgering for dates every few weeks.

Now that will be $100 for that advice
 
2017-11-23 06:45:04 AM  
Yes, and they don't care.
 
2017-11-23 07:06:57 AM  
No.

The vast majority of men are capable of figuring out that women are autonomous being with desires of their own who are entitled to courtesy and respect.

The ones who aren't really suck though.
 
2017-11-23 07:34:54 AM  
"Are men really that stupid?"  Well..., yes and no. Yes, some men really are that stupid, but it's more of a "breaking several thousand years of conditioned entitlement" thing. Addressing this very long-standing power imbalance is going to be painful and awkward...

Painful for the people who don't get it (or don't want to get it) and awkward for the people who've let themselves be conditioned into accepting it for so long. Still, we'll all be better for it. I work with kids, and while they're mostly still pretty clueless about the world around them, they've never been more aware of social inequities, and they've been keeping score. It's clear to me our kids are ready to abandon most of our prejudices. We owe it to them to have this out now.
 
2017-11-23 08:07:38 AM  

ongbok: ReapTheChaos: "Two in every three men surveyed didn't think repeated unwanted invitations to drinks, dinner, or dates was sexual harassment."

So is that the rule then? Seems pretty broad and open. What constitutes "repeated", and how is "unwanted" to be determined?

If I ask a woman if she wan'ts to get a drink after work and she says "Oh, sorry, I have other plans", then I ask her again two weeks later, is two times qualify as repeated? Was simply saying "I have other plans" the first time a clear enough indication that it was an unwanted invitation?

Lets say I ask if a woman would like to get dinner this Friday, and she says no, (for whatever reason), then I follow up with asking if she would like to go some other time, does that qualify as repeated?

What if I ask a woman out and she tells me she's seeing someone. A month later I hear she's not happy with the person and considering breaking up, so I ask again. Two months after that they finally break up, am I allowed to ask her out a third time?

I get their point, repeatedly badgering a woman who's made it clear she has no interest in you is harassment, but it seems to me that there are so many variables to that situation that it would be impossible to define it as simply "repeated unwanted invitations".

How about have a little game? You sound just like the guy women complain about. They let you down lightly, and instead of taking the hint, you badger them every couple of weeks.


So your opinion is that whenever a person turns down a date with someone else, regardless of reason given, it always means they're not interested in dating that person at all? In other words, they're lying in order to spare the other persons feelings? That seems like a pretty generalized opinion.
 
2017-11-23 08:17:21 AM  
Testosterone brings the stupid. We all have to go through a learning phase.

Some learn faster than others.

Just as the ladies have their own hormone issues.  Circle of life?
 
2017-11-23 10:04:19 AM  

ReapTheChaos: ongbok: ReapTheChaos: "Two in every three men surveyed didn't think repeated unwanted invitations to drinks, dinner, or dates was sexual harassment."

So is that the rule then? Seems pretty broad and open. What constitutes "repeated", and how is "unwanted" to be determined?

If I ask a woman if she wan'ts to get a drink after work and she says "Oh, sorry, I have other plans", then I ask her again two weeks later, is two times qualify as repeated? Was simply saying "I have other plans" the first time a clear enough indication that it was an unwanted invitation?

Lets say I ask if a woman would like to get dinner this Friday, and she says no, (for whatever reason), then I follow up with asking if she would like to go some other time, does that qualify as repeated?

What if I ask a woman out and she tells me she's seeing someone. A month later I hear she's not happy with the person and considering breaking up, so I ask again. Two months after that they finally break up, am I allowed to ask her out a third time?

I get their point, repeatedly badgering a woman who's made it clear she has no interest in you is harassment, but it seems to me that there are so many variables to that situation that it would be impossible to define it as simply "repeated unwanted invitations".

How about have a little game? You sound just like the guy women complain about. They let you down lightly, and instead of taking the hint, you badger them every couple of weeks.

So your opinion is that whenever a person turns down a date with someone else, regardless of reason given, it always means they're not interested in dating that person at all? In other words, they're lying in order to spare the other persons feelings? That seems like a pretty generalized opinion.


I took it more to mean that for whatever reason she said no, if instead of continuing that line of pursuit, the asker just acted like a friend, interested in her even if she doesn't want to go out might work out better for both people. She may feel she matters more than just as an object to date and the asker has a chance to learn more about her in a casual setting which can't be a bad thing. YMMV, certainly
 
2017-11-23 10:19:01 AM  
"Why are there so many?" Stopped reading right there. It may help promote her book or her political agenda to take that tangent, but here's the reality: The guys doing this sort of thing -- not just the famous people but the jerk in your office, all the guys doing this sort of thing lumped together -- represent maybe 1% of the male population of this planet. And yeah, that's a lot of douchebags, but don't paint all of us with the same brush.
 
2017-11-23 10:42:54 AM  
It's not so much a matter of moving the goalposts, as it is the people getting tired of having to play the game.  If you are in the minority in a situation, you end up dealing with crap.  Once the playing field levels out some, you start refusing to play the old games.

For example, my kid with the developmental age of 9 is fully into puberty.  He knows he really suddenly wants to be near girls, but doesn't understand why, or how to accomplish this new goal.  Fortunately for him, he doesn't realize that it's uncool to talk to the parents or other adults about topics considered way too adult and/or R rated.  So he talks, we help him rehearse how to talk to girls in ways that keep him from being labeled a creep, and girls get to practice turning down a guy with confidence.  His other siblings try to shame him, but since he has more success with the ladies, he's getting real good at ignoring loser brothers.  He measures his success by how many girls are in his contact list on Instagram at any time.  His ladies on Instagram know they have one guy that will always be ready to say how nice they are, which seems to cheer them up, so it's a nice thing.
 
2017-11-23 10:53:40 AM  

Fingerware Error: Some are, some aren't. I save up all my sexual harassment and give it to one extremely beautiful woman. She has the opportunity to murder me in my sleep every night and hasn't done so. Our first date was over forty years ago.


That's because you harassed her so badly that you didn't deserve the quick death in your sleep, oh no you are getting the slow death of marriage.
Women can be very cruel when harassed the wrong way, I am in my 35th year of my death sentence.
 
2017-11-23 11:18:08 AM  
It's not that we're stupid - on the contrary, we long ago discovered it is easier to beg forgiveness than ask for permission. No, sugardrawers, the fact of the matter is we are deliberately misbehaving and we must be punished. So I admit it, I've been a bad boy. Here, squeeze into this little outfit and spank me on my bare bottom. I need to be taught a lesson.

Could you speed it up a little, honeybuns? I'm meeting my campaign manager at 3.
 
2017-11-23 11:36:10 AM  

bronyaur1: fusillade762: [img.fark.net image 850x477]

Some folks just don't think it's all that big of a deal.

What would a similar poll in mid-1999 looked like?


And what about mid 1899?

Who else has a pointless point to make?
 
2017-11-23 12:22:58 PM  
Sadly, yes.

The meme with the guy checking out the girl in red, while his companion looks at him, horrified?  EVERY guy has done this.  It's a midbrain thing.  It doesn't make it right and it doesn't mitigate actions taken further, but it is a real thing.

Women are beautiful. Sometimes, they look GOOOOOOD. And we have to look.  Maybe teh ladies do the same thing and they're more discreet.  Even when you're straight up busted checking out a fella, most guys let it slide, because we've been there.  If we can avoid a fight by doing absolutely nothing, then great.
 
2017-11-23 12:28:26 PM  
Has anyone noticed the combo of having halitosis and being a creepy dude? Most of the dudes that I've met that are creepy/inappropriate, also seem to have serious halitosis. Might just be my personal perspective, but I can guarantee that if I interact with a dude with halitosis, they have a high rate of not understanding social norms.
 
2017-11-23 01:04:07 PM  

grokca: Fingerware Error: Some are, some aren't. I save up all my sexual harassment and give it to one extremely beautiful woman. She has the opportunity to murder me in my sleep every night and hasn't done so. Our first date was over forty years ago.
That's because you harassed her so badly that you didn't deserve the quick death in your sleep, oh no you are getting the slow death of marriage.
Women can be very cruel when harassed the wrong way, I am in my 35th year of my death sentence.


I'm going back to harass one man who doesn't deserve to die, yet. I can kill him fast, or I can kill him slow, but he's getting some death. It's his own fault-- we got into an argument almost the minute we met, and he still hired me.

/Don't panic--I don't work for him anymore.
 
2017-11-23 01:21:06 PM  

seriously.though: Has anyone noticed the combo of having halitosis and being a creepy dude? Most of the dudes that I've met that are creepy/inappropriate, also seem to have serious halitosis. Might just be my personal perspective, but I can guarantee that if I interact with a dude with halitosis, they have a high rate of not understanding social norms.


Did know one guy with absolutely chronic, medically caused halitosis (he brushed his teeth, yadda but it just didn't help.)  He did kinda fit your theory, but I always figured it was more because he never did really have much practice at "normal" interaction with women, his condition made that an awkward mess from moment one.  So, correlation/causation was a little iffy - but yeah.

/really felt bad for him - this wasn't normal bad breath it was baaaad - and they just could not get it treated reasonably despite many attempts/methodologies
 
2017-11-23 01:32:26 PM  
Yes and no.  Among men in general?  Probably not.  Among men with a degree of power?  It's more likely.
Joe Workman on the assembly line or riding a garbage truck all day doesn't really have any power to entice women into doing his bidding.  J. Roquefort Douchebag III, executive deadweight,  though, knows he has a little something extra to offer the womens he attempts to woo.

It's kind of like asking, "Do women use their looks to get ahead?"

Jenna Maroney (30 Rock): My Sexuality
Youtube p_XmrhUEIb0
 
2017-11-23 03:00:12 PM  

bingethinker: "Why are there so many?" Stopped reading right there. It may help promote her book or her political agenda to take that tangent, but here's the reality: The guys doing this sort of thing -- not just the famous people but the jerk in your office, all the guys doing this sort of thing lumped together -- represent maybe 1% of the male population of this planet. And yeah, that's a lot of douchebags, but don't paint all of us with the same brush.


Not gonna happens, didn't you get the memo? According to some fark-ups all _______ are exactly the same without exception. They don't take kindly to rational thought, just their limited experiences/heresay.
 
2017-11-23 05:23:41 PM  

Barricaded Gunman: bronyaur1: fusillade762: [img.fark.net image 850x477]

Some folks just don't think it's all that big of a deal.

What would a similar poll in mid-1999 looked like?

And what about mid 1899?

Who else has a pointless point to make?


Just because you don't get the point doesn't mean there isn't one.
 
2017-11-23 07:38:59 PM  

bingethinker: "Why are there so many?" Stopped reading right there. It may help promote her book or her political agenda to take that tangent, but here's the reality: The guys doing this sort of thing -- not just the famous people but the jerk in your office, all the guys doing this sort of thing lumped together -- represent maybe 1% of the male population of this planet. And yeah, that's a lot of douchebags, but don't paint all of us with the same brush.


Ehhh, it's a lot more than 1%. I unscientifically don't think that it is a majority certainly, but I've seen enough in person at a rate that would make for a very weird clumping of people I've encountered if it was really just 1% of the male population.

Now, granted, I'm not talking Weinstein-level monstrous. But the rate of people who consistently reach the level of "unacceptable creep" is not low.
 
2017-11-23 07:43:57 PM  

bingethinker: "Why are there so many?" Stopped reading right there. It may help promote her book or her political agenda to take that tangent, but here's the reality: The guys doing this sort of thing -- not just the famous people but the jerk in your office, all the guys doing this sort of thing lumped together -- represent maybe 1% of the male population of this planet. And yeah, that's a lot of douchebags, but don't paint all of us with the same brush.


Or, let me frame this another way: If all of the revelations lately about famous people who had assaulted someone, not even the ones who acted inappropriately but the ones where there was an actual, physical violation of some sort, were instead accused of murder, I don't think the question "What the fark are there so many murders being uncovered in our entertainment industry?" would be at all unreasonable to ask.
 
2017-11-23 07:49:25 PM  

Delta1212: bingethinker: "Why are there so many?" Stopped reading right there. It may help promote her book or her political agenda to take that tangent, but here's the reality: The guys doing this sort of thing -- not just the famous people but the jerk in your office, all the guys doing this sort of thing lumped together -- represent maybe 1% of the male population of this planet. And yeah, that's a lot of douchebags, but don't paint all of us with the same brush.

Or, let me frame this another way: If all of the revelations lately about famous people who had assaulted someone, not even the ones who acted inappropriately but the ones where there was an actual, physical violation of some sort, were instead accused of murder, I don't think the question "What the fark are there so many murders being uncovered in our entertainment industry?" would be at all unreasonable to ask.


Not so many victims coming forward, though.
 
2017-11-23 07:58:16 PM  

cryinoutloud: I'm going back to harass one man who doesn't deserve to die, yet. I can kill him fast, or I can kill him slow, but he's getting some death.


"Johnny, Angry Johnny, this is Jezebel in hell...."

/sorry, that song just started playing in my head
 
2017-11-23 09:56:33 PM  
The answer is that society changes very slowly. Harassment wasn't considered a thing in the 50s and 60s and the attitude was the women were flattered to be shown your attention. Even as men became aware of sexual harassment, they still kept up the behavior because they could get away with it.  I also suspect that it didn't include masturbation (which was still considered a perversion instead of part of normal sexuality) or showing genitals.  But as sex became a bigger part of the culture, and nude photos were something that men and women shared with each other, things went from suggestive to gross.

Harvey Weinstein forced a change. His harassment was so blatant, and so widespread, that people took notice.  More importantly, women were willing to come forward to talk about what he had done. When someone as powerful as him is taken down, women who had similar experiences with other men begin to talk about them.

Basically, men -- especially powerful men -- were able to get away with it.  Suddenly, they can't, and their behavior over the years has come back to haunt them.
 
2017-11-23 10:16:57 PM  

ReapTheChaos: "Two in every three men surveyed didn't think repeated unwanted invitations to drinks, dinner, or dates was sexual harassment."

So is that the rule then? Seems pretty broad and open. What constitutes "repeated", and how is "unwanted" to be determined?

If I ask a woman if she wan'ts to get a drink after work and she says "Oh, sorry, I have other plans", then I ask her again two weeks later, is two times qualify as repeated? Was simply saying "I have other plans" the first time a clear enough indication that it was an unwanted invitation?

Lets say I ask if a woman would like to get dinner this Friday, and she says no, (for whatever reason), then I follow up with asking if she would like to go some other time, does that qualify as repeated?

What if I ask a woman out and she tells me she's seeing someone. A month later I hear she's not happy with the person and considering breaking up, so I ask again. Two months after that they finally break up, am I allowed to ask her out a third time?

I get their point, repeatedly badgering a woman who's made it clear she has no interest in you is harassment, but it seems to me that there are so many variables to that situation that it would be impossible to define it as simply "repeated unwanted invitations".


Women, and I speak from that perspective, cannot reasonably say they are being harassed simply for being asked out on more than one occasion *unless* they have clearly said "no, I'm not interested".   It's not your fault you can't read minds, just as it isn't your fault it's difficult to turn someone down without resorting to excuses that soften the blow and muddy the water.  I have to be responsible with my replies.

If someone isn't sure if the answer is "no" or "not now", they should just ask.  Women should accept that no isn't easy to hear the first, fifth, or tenth time someone puts themselves out there so it's better to be honest from the beginning.
 
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