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(Freshmeat.net)   Installing certain Borland products allows them to break into your house. Guess it would be a good idea to read those license agreements from now on.   (freshmeat.net ) divider line
    More: Scary  
•       •       •

10264 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Jan 2002 at 8:04 AM (14 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



52 Comments     (+0 »)
 


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DIG
2002-01-13 08:10:29 AM  
farking shiat!
seems like the big brother is already here!

Dat Israely Guy
 
2002-01-13 08:14:33 AM  
allows them to break into your house

No it doesn't. Read the freaking article.
 
2002-01-13 08:24:22 AM  
This type of agreement is typical for any software company.

It is mainly aimed at larger corporations and the companies know about it.

Software companies do audits all the time... Microsoft does audits, adobe, etc...

Nothing real new here.
 
2002-01-13 08:26:10 AM  
so is it whats-his-face's day to rule fark yet?
 
2002-01-13 08:33:03 AM  
and i'd like to see them find my house after i register it as "bob sacamano, 1212 notmyrealaddress HA" with my email address being "­b­ite­me­[nospam-﹫-backwards]l­i­h­set­aropro­c­uoyre­n­i­e­w­y­ppo­lf­ym*c­om"
 
2002-01-13 08:38:02 AM  
If this was about Microsoft, there would already be 345345354 posts about how much Microsoft sucks and how they use dogs and sexual devices.
 
2002-01-13 08:55:21 AM  
MrKitty: I for one resent this hateful Microsoft idea. We use that many derogatory slanders on ANY thread.
 
fb-
2002-01-13 09:01:18 AM  
Just another reason to pirate software.
 
2002-01-13 09:11:33 AM  
The waiving a right to a trial is the far more interesting clause. If there's cause to believe you're in violation they could get a search warrant which elimates the need the one contract point, but the waiving of a trial is positively whack and I don't think that's even enforcable.
 
2002-01-13 09:27:43 AM  
That's what some of the freshmeat people's comments were saying - that it IS legal to scare you by threatening non-legal things, such as entering your house or place of business to search your computer, and waiving your rights to a trial by jury...but not legal to actually do them.

i guess a lot of things in that liscence weren't enforcable.
 
2002-01-13 09:39:34 AM  
I am completely overwhelmed by my apathy regarding this issue. The only way they will "invade your home" is if you tell them who you are. Any individual who registers software with their own name and address gets all the misery they deserve, from spam to the software cops knocking on your door.

I don't care if I bought a piece of software from a vendor, or if I got a copy off of Morpheus - the LAST thing I'm gonna do is become the company's biatch by letting them know I have a copy.
 
2002-01-13 10:08:00 AM  
That no jury trial thing is the scary part. They are corrupting the legal system. I've heard that many banks are now requiring the same thing when you sign up for any type of account with them.
 
2002-01-13 10:21:44 AM  
ALL THOSE WHO READ THIS THREAD:

Upon use, you hereby give up all rights of citizenry and ownership. Please send me all your stuff. By using Fark, this thread, or this license agreement, you are provided a service. Using this service IE: reading this, subjects you to the forementioned terms upon use.

Polypuga
 
2002-01-13 10:39:33 AM  
fb- make up your damn mind.. one day u are against piracy.. the next you say another reason for piracy.. there is a name for someone like you...hypocrite
 
2002-01-13 10:43:55 AM  
First - No one put a gun to his head and made him use their software.

Second - The "right to privacy" is not in the constitution, and even if it were that protection would only apply against the government.
 
2002-01-13 10:47:45 AM  
I guess, since they have written an agreement which is only meant to scare people, and cannot actually be enforced, that means that none of the provisions are legal. Therefore, the software is free to be reproduced as we see fit. HAZAAH!
 
2002-01-13 11:09:35 AM  
"This was on slashdot yesterday."

What's the matter with that statement Mod?
Must have got you all worked up and made you so mad.


the discussion was better there anyway, so I guess we should just go back to talking about the latest attention whore of the week on fark, that makes the threads so much better here.
(sarcasm)
 
2002-01-13 11:09:57 AM  
RevBrianUDM-

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
 
2002-01-13 11:17:07 AM  
Bmr68

That only applies to the government against a citizen, not to a contract between you as the end user and the company which you contracted with by agreeing to the EULA.
 
2002-01-13 11:24:59 AM  
Scraping-fetus-off-the-wheel-

Your right it's early and had a brain cramp. Yet I do not feel that this EULA would be valid if contested in the courts. The problem is that Borland knows that a company questioned by them would be hesitant to tie themselves up in
a costly lawsuit for a few years.
 
2002-01-13 11:27:41 AM  
This EULA would get thrown right out of court if challenged. They will change it in a few weeks when they get tired of emails from professional users flaming them to a crisp and threatening to use competitor products.
 
2002-01-13 11:33:34 AM  
the autoCAD people can break in, also

I learned this while pirating software for classes I was taking.

the thought of nerds from Borland (a 15 minute drive from my home) knocking on my door is enough for me to consider gun ownership.
 
rpm
2002-01-13 11:35:21 AM  
Bmr68, 4th amdendment does not protect privacy (what about information you give "freely" to the government, such as tax forms?)

RevBrianUDM The right to privacy is in the Constitution. See Amendments 9&10.
 
2002-01-13 12:08:03 PM  
This is exactly why I use fake info when demoing software.

If I like it, I'll register for real.
 
Mos
2002-01-13 12:21:32 PM  
Why do people keep thinking that the Constitution applies to corporate entities? It doesn't. It applies to the Government, you fools. You poor, poor fools.


Anyway, I will one day rule the world by controlling the food market, then only giving people permission to eat the food by sending in a contract that allows me to enslave them. Genius!
 
2002-01-13 12:48:26 PM  
Mos: Glad to see at least one person here is intelligent enought to realize that private parties can not violate one's civil liberties.

Waiving the right to a jury trial is very common in corporate contracts. It even exists in many states criminal rules of procedure. If you are awaiting trial, and fail to request a jury trial within a certain number of days of the initial hearing, you lose your right to jury trial, too.
 
2002-01-13 12:49:35 PM  
if the constitution didn't apply to corparate entities then i can start a corparation devoted solely to shutting people up, and censoring people.. it does apply to corparations because the constitution is law.. corparations must abide by laws as much as individual citizens must...christ people.. and mos.. don't call people fools when you yourself obviously dont know a thing about the subject..
 
2002-01-13 01:07:47 PM  
Dapharmer, regarding Fb-'s hypocrisy. It's a man's right to reconsider his opinions on a given subject. SOME would even call it open minded. It's your actions (at least on this topic) that seal your fate.
 
2002-01-13 01:08:44 PM  
Erm, I mean person, not man.
 
2002-01-13 01:14:56 PM  
My insurance company wanted me to sign a document, prior to picking a PCP wherein, if they farked up, I could not sue them.

But if I didn't sign it, they wouldn't assign me my selected PCP.
 
2002-01-13 01:15:50 PM  
Dapharmer:

Sounds like some of us do not understand "heavy sarcasn".
If you need some help understanding that, I'm sure one of us here would explain what sarcasm is if you ask.
 
2002-01-13 01:36:27 PM  
Don't take this too lightly. Some states have passed UCTIA laws that make such click-through licenses enforceable (previously they had not been). Consumer rights are going into the dumper these days, and it's dangerous to assume this kind of stuff isn't really valid anymore. Remember you now get all the justice you can buy, and corporations have more money than you do.
 
2002-01-13 01:59:22 PM  
woohoo! one of my submissions actually made it! hot damn!
 
fb-
2002-01-13 02:01:05 PM  
You've obviously haven't cracked open too many software ELUA's.

This Macromedia license contains: You agree that Macromedia may audit your use of the Software for compliance with the EULA at any time, upon reasonable notice.

This Novell license contains: Novell shall have the right, at its expense and upon no less than three business days prior written notice, to audit Customer's records and use of the Licensed Works.

Netscape DevEdge Software Suite says: Licensor may conduct one or more audits to verify such compliance. Audits will be conducted during normal business hours. All audits shall be conducted at Licensor's expense unless the results establish that Licensee has underpaid Licensor by more than 5% of the amount actually due, in which case Licensee shall pay all amounts due and bear the expense of the audit.
 
2002-01-13 02:18:22 PM  
I'd knife those coonts in the face if they poked their money-grubbing, sub-human heads around my house.
 
2002-01-13 02:35:37 PM  
This discussion of privacy rights is typical. rpm, here's what the ninth and tenth amendments SAY:

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

That's not creating a "right to privacy" that would include a prohibition on the freedom to contract where such contract would allow audits such as this one. As for the existence of a "right to privacy" in the plain text of the constitution, it's nowhere to be found - the whole concept was largely invented to cover certain cases involving sexuality, most notably Griswold v. Connecticut, in which the court found that a right to privacy existed in "emenations from penumbras" ie, could be inferred from, if I remember right, the 9th, 10th, and 14th amendments (the 14th being due process etc.) While the legitimacy of the courts reasoning may perhaps be defended on some grounds, it is not accurate to assert that the constitution forbids a contract such as this one. As one corporate lawyer did point out in the article though, contract law has reached the point where the state will refuse to enforce many contracts, so there's some chance this contract could never be enforced.

As for the issue of trial by jury -- people, this would most likely be a civil case rather than a criminal one anyway, and though jury trials are still common in civil cases, a jury in that kind of a case really isn't a big deal one way or another, since the facts are usually stipulated by all parties, and the case thus turns on exact interpretations of relevant clauses in the contract and in applicable law.


Finally, as to the applicability of the Constitution to corporate or other private entities - darpharmer you're missing the point, though those you're criticizing might be as well -- look, the Bill of Rights, which is where the so called right to privacy is supposed to come from -- *is* intended to apply solely to the gov't, specifically the national gov't. The entire purpose of those amendments is to specifically prohibit certain gov't actions. This does not necessarily mean that you are forbidden by those amendments from entering into a contract with a private entity that would allow it to do something that the fed gov't can't. A "search" such as is provided for in this EULA is entirely legitimate -- it's on a par with consenting to allow scans of your computer for cheat software if you play counter-strike or something like that. Odious? perhaps, but you can buy different software, or just get a lot of GPL stuff for free (as in beer, as well as in software, but most of you know that).

The guy writing the article didn't know anything about contract law, and it's not surprising that he wrote the paranoid rant that he did. I don't blame him for being irritated at the terms of the license or for refusing to buy under it - but it's simply false to assert that "the constitution" prevents parties from engaging in contracts like this one.

cheers
jeh
 
hnb
2002-01-13 02:48:47 PM  
Nothing new here, software companies have always pulled or tried to pull this same kind of crap. And the guy biatching about it is what? A software engineer! It's sort of like a lawyer biatching about our overly-litigious society.
 
2002-01-13 03:19:46 PM  
[image from metroactive.com too old to be available]
Have a cuddle bunny, everyone. Relax. Simple solution: boycott Borland if you hate them because of this contract.
 
2002-01-13 04:53:53 PM  
Or pirate their software...
 
2002-01-13 05:12:50 PM  
The provisions of some of these contracts would not hold up in court. Not only can't a contract be enforced if it has illegal provisions, it's terms can also be deemed as onerous. Even if both parties agree to it, a contract is invalid if it violates commonlaw. You could not sign a contract that allows them to beat you up if you violate their terms, for example, or allow them to search through your pesonal belongings unrelated to their software.
Or if they demand to search your property, don't let them in and tell them to sue you. Then they still can't get in until it goes to court and they get a decision in their favor.
 
2002-01-13 06:14:09 PM  
Hmmm good bunny *burp*
 
2002-01-13 07:43:52 PM  
//--------------------------------------------------------------------​-------

#pragma hdrstop

//--------------------------------------------------------------------​-------
#include
#include
#pragma argsused
int main()
{ char borlansucks;
cout>borlandsucks;
if (borlandsucks=='y')
{
cout<<"Great! Download something using fake info like Borland Enterprise!";
}
else if (borlandsucks=='n')
{
cout<<"Wil Wheaton will be dispatched immediately to administer ass-kicking.";
}
getch();
return 0;
}
//--------------------------------------------------------------------​-------


I'm a farking nerd.
 
2002-01-13 07:45:09 PM  
holy crap. forgot to disable html. oh well, it's never funny the second time.
 
2002-01-13 08:17:38 PM  
if you steal it they will come.
 
rpm
2002-01-13 08:20:58 PM  
ZeusGod A nerd woulda gotten the code right <G>

The first cout should be cin (and use >>)
Nothing to deal with failure conditions (what if it isn't Y or N?)
Streams require std:: (or a using namespace std)
 
2002-01-13 08:39:27 PM  
There was a cout above the cin, it got converted to html when I posted.

I didn't put any failure conditions cuz I didn't want to post a buncha if statements and crap.

and what the fark is streaming? I've only been studying C++ for about a month or so.
 
2002-01-13 08:51:59 PM  
The belated wrath of Kahn?

I haven't used bore land for years, this piece of crap does not change my mind.
 
2002-01-13 10:00:03 PM  
Fb-
That software ELUA compilation was amazing ! I may actually read them now.
 
2002-01-14 12:28:39 AM  
You all deserve this... Verants EverQuest ELUA..

My Apologies

Notice to Users

Clarification of User Agreement and Software License

BY PRESSING THE "I ACCEPT" BUTTON, YOU ACCEPT THE AMENDMENT TO THE USER AGREEMENT AND SOFTWARE LICENSE BELOW. BY PRESSING THE "DECLINE" BUTTON, YOU DECLINE OUR OFFER, IN WHICH CASE YOU SHOULD CONTACT YOUR RETAILER REGARDING ITS RETURN POLICY FOR THE EVERQUEST CD-ROM. If you have any questions regarding these terms and conditions, please contact customer service at eqmail­[nospam-﹫-backwards]tnare­v­*co­m.

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We have consistently advised all players -- through newsgroup postings and otherwise -- that selling items and/or coin is inappropriate gameplay. In addition to violating our agreement, selling or auctioning accounts, characters, items and/or coin violates our legal rights and may constitute misappropriation, interference with our contract with the users who quit in frustration, and tarnishes the goodwill in the EverQuest name.

The User Agreement and Software License, which you choose to affirmatively accept every time you reenter the game, prohibits the sale of accounts, characters, items and/or coin -- whether by auction (e.g. eBay) or otherwise. The User Agreement, in sections 1 and 7, prohibits the transfer of an EverQuest account and software, and in sections 6 and 10 prohibits, among other things, gameplay which is inappropriate and actions which place an unreasonably large load on our infrastructure. Sections 7 and 8 of this Agreement provide that we own all property rights in the game, subject to your license to play the game.

To further emphasize these points, effective immediately, the following language shall be added to the end of section 9 of the User Agreement and as a section in the EverQuest rules of conduct:

"You may not sell or auction any EverQuest characters, items, coin or copyrighted material."

Consent to Patching Process

In addition to the above changes, we are going to require that you consent to us updating your EverQuest files from time to time for the purpose of patching the game.

Therefore the following language is hereby added to the end of Section 12 of the EverQuest license agreement:

"Solely for the purpose of patching and updating the Game, you hereby grant us permission to (i) upload Game file information from the Everquest directory and (ii) download Game files to you."


Please remember to review the current terms and conditions of the User Agreement and Software License. Thank you.


USER AGREEMENT AND SOFTWARE LICENSE

THIS AGREEMENT DESCRIBES THE TERMS ON WHICH SONY COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT AMERICA INC. OFFERS YOU ACCESS TO AN ACCOUNT (THE "ACCOUNT") TO PLAY THE EVERQUEST ONLINE FANTASY ROLE PLAYING COMPUTER GAME (THE "GAME"). BY PRESSING THE "I ACCEPT" BUTTON, YOU ACCEPT THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS BELOW. BY PRESSING THE "DECLINE" BUTTON, YOU DECLINE OUR OFFER, IN WHICH CASE YOU SHOULD CONTACT YOUR RETAILER REGARDING ITS RETURN POLICY FOR THE EVERQUEST CD-ROM. If you have any questions regarding these terms and conditions, please contact customer service at eqmail­[nospam-﹫-backwards]tnare­v­*co­m.

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Parental control protections (such as computer hardware, software, or filtering services) are commercially available that may assist you in limiting access to material that is harmful to minors. If you are interested in learning about these protections, information is available at http://www.worldvillage.com/wv/school/html/control.htm or other similar sites providing information on such protections.
 
2002-01-14 05:12:07 AM  

There is a big difference between the usual audit provision and Borland's.

Borland's provision says, "Borland or its outside auditors will have the right to enter your premises and access your records and computer systems to verify that you have paid to Borland the correct amounts owed under this License and determine whether the Products are being used in accordance with the terms of this License."

These are very, very different from the usual ones.

 
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