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(FindLaw)   Can we all agree with one federal gun control measure? 1) Legally, a background check is required anytime a gun changes hands 2) Free checks are offered by police stations 3) Seller/loaner loses gun rights if crime occurs and check was not performed   ( consumer.findlaw.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, Firearm, firearms, state law, Federally licensed firearms, Felony, Conn. Gen. Stat., background check, private gun sales  
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167 clicks; posted to Discussion » on 06 Nov 2017 at 11:20 AM (2 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-11-06 09:33:14 AM  
Seller/loaner loses gun rights if crime occurs and check was not performed

Make them also liable for Civil lawsuits and we have a deal.
 
2017-11-06 09:38:17 AM  
Good idea but it's too soon.
 
2017-11-06 09:43:09 AM  
All firearms should be registered to their owners. The owners should be responsible for what is done with those firearms. If you are really a responsible gun owner, this will not be a problem. After all, you secured those weapons.

Now, if some drunk redneck leaves a pistol on the coffee table and a 5-year old shoots a 3-year old, the registered owner is charged with shooting the 3-year old, for failing to secure said weapon.
 
2017-11-06 10:00:35 AM  

jasonvatch: All firearms should be registered to their owners. The owners should be responsible for what is done with those firearms. If you are really a responsible gun owner, this will not be a problem. After all, you secured those weapons.

Now, if some drunk redneck leaves a pistol on the coffee table and a 5-year old shoots a 3-year old, the registered owner is charged with shooting the 3-year old, for failing to secure said weapon.


While I agree with you, I know plenty of gun owners will balk at any mention of 'registration', so i'm trying to think of something that everyone would agree to with the least amount of pain.  And let me say, their will be some gun owners that will not like the idea of requiring a background check to loan or sell a gun to their brother.  But the point is, you can do it without the background check, you'll just be liable if they decide to go on a murdering spree when a background check would have informed you they were not allowed to have a firearm.

This is like the most basic 'strict' gun regulation I can think of, I want to hear from people who would actually have an issue with this regulation.
 
2017-11-06 10:05:32 AM  
2) Free checks are offered by police stations

But,... then how are we supposed to enact punitive measures (financial or otherwise) against gun owners?

jasonvatch: All firearms should be registered to their owners. The owners should be responsible for what is done with those firearms. If you are really a responsible gun owner, this will not be a problem. After all, you secured those weapons.

Now, if some drunk redneck leaves a pistol on the coffee table and a 5-year old shoots a 3-year old, the registered owner is charged with shooting the 3-year old, for failing to secure said weapon.


That's fine, but gun control advocates have poisoned the registration well and do not help make the case for registration when confiscation is routinely touted as an option, viable, reasonable, etc.

/I would accept the Czech Republic's gun laws, including registration
//including their national concealed carry and non-prohibition of machine guns, which would override more restrictive state and local regulations
 
2017-11-06 10:26:13 AM  

Fark It: 2) Free checks are offered by police stations

But,... then how are we supposed to enact punitive measures (financial or otherwise) against gun owners?


Trust me, i would prefer if there was a nominal fee to perform the background check, say $20.  Something that would help fund the local police department, but still be a fraction of what a 3rd party gun dealer would charge.  However, i know this talking point of even $5 dollars being too much for 'poor' people.  So fark it, it will be free, and just another line item in their annual budget.
 
2017-11-06 10:31:01 AM  
Perhaps we should go to the plain meaning of the 2nd Amendment text, and interpret "bear arms" as a bear's upper appendages.

If a demand for a "lawyer dog" is interpreted as a request for a canine that is licensed to practice law, then I think this is reasonable.
 
2017-11-06 10:31:05 AM  
Good idea.

My coworkers exchange money for guns all the time. loaning people money while holding onto their guns as collateral. I like the suggestion.

Also, on a slight thread jack, if people must have photo IDs for voting, make driver licenses and state ID cards fee-free as well with offices offering extended hours for the working poor. Thread jack over.
 
2017-11-06 10:35:58 AM  
Ok.

This last guy was loony and dangerous and lots of people knew it.  But he still got guns.  Did he go through a background check?
 
2017-11-06 10:36:46 AM  
What offense or thing in the background check would prevent ownership, I think is the bigger issue.  But lets get that background check going.
 
2017-11-06 10:42:56 AM  

Chris Ween: Ok.

This last guy was loony and dangerous and lots of people knew it.  But he still got guns.  Did he go through a background check?



I don't think this would have stopped the vegas shooter.  But if the shooter in Texas got his guns by any other means besides theft, someone else should also be liable.  Everything says that this guy would not have passed a background check.  Will this solve all gun violence in America?  No, but it's a farking start.
 
2017-11-06 10:49:42 AM  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jag​g​ed_Orbit

The Jagged Orbitis a science fiction novel by British writer John Brunner and illustrators Leo and Diane Dillon. It was first published in 1969...

Plot summary
The novel is set in the United States in 2014, when interracial tensions have passed the breaking point. A Mafia-like cartel, the Gottschalks, are exploiting this situation to sell weapons to anyone able to buy them. A split develops within the cartel, between the conservative old men and ambitious underlings prepared to use new computer technology to pull off some spectacular coups.
  
Amazing, ain't it?
 
2017-11-06 11:01:09 AM  

AirForceVet: Also, on a slight thread jack, if people must have photo IDs for voting, make driver licenses and state ID cards fee-free as well with offices offering extended hours for the working poor. Thread jack over.


And how do you propose that we pay the probably hundreds of thousands of employees at licensing facilities across the country?
 
2017-11-06 11:05:35 AM  

abhorrent1: AirForceVet: Also, on a slight thread jack, if people must have photo IDs for voting, make driver licenses and state ID cards fee-free as well with offices offering extended hours for the working poor. Thread jack over.

And how do you propose that we pay the probably hundreds of thousands of employees at licensing facilities across the country?


We can cut our order for F-35's by 10%, re-allocate taxes, or simply raise taxes.
 
2017-11-06 11:11:26 AM  
Now is not the time for fixing problems. Thoughts and prayers. Why so insensitive subby?
 
2017-11-06 11:13:35 AM  

Chris Ween: Did he go through a background check?


Apparently he checked the box that stated he would pass a background check so none was performed.
 
2017-11-06 11:22:57 AM  

oldernell: Good idea but it's too soon.


Why?  This could be in response to an earlier mass shooting, where enough time as passed for it to be politicized.

But I know what you really meant.
 
2017-11-06 11:30:11 AM  
Doesn't matter.  Whatever it is the NRA will claim it's a slide into taking everyone's guns away.
 
2017-11-06 11:33:12 AM  

jasonvatch: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jag​g​ed_Orbit

The Jagged Orbitis a science fiction novel by British writer John Brunner and illustrators Leo and Diane Dillon. It was first published in 1969...

Plot summary
The novel is set in the United States in 2014, when interracial tensions have passed the breaking point. A Mafia-like cartel, the Gottschalks, are exploiting this situation to sell weapons to anyone able to buy them. A split develops within the cartel, between the conservative old men and ambitious underlings prepared to use new computer technology to pull off some spectacular coups.
  
Amazing, ain't it?


I reread that recently.
It didn't seem so damned far-fetched the second time around.
Shockwave Rider is still good reading.
 
2017-11-06 11:34:08 AM  

Chris Ween: Ok.

This last guy was loony and dangerous and lots of people knew it.  But he still got guns.  Did he go through a background check?


Not sure if he did at the point of purchase but on the press conference just now they said all checks the police did came back clean. So even if he did go through it, it wouldn't have prohibited him from buying a gun.

I live in Illinois and already have to go through one to get a FOID card in order to own a gun. The Vegas guy went through them as well and there was nothing to keep him from owning guns either. AFAIK neither of these guys bought their guns illicitly. They were all legally purchased.

If people want them, do them. but lets not pretend background checks wouldn't have prevented either of those shootings.
 
2017-11-06 11:34:17 AM  
That article was extremely enlightening.  I know a lot of people that go up to Wyoming from Colorado to buy/sell guns as individuals.  Now I know why.
 
2017-11-06 11:34:23 AM  

UncleDirtNap: Doesn't matter.  Whatever it is the NRA will claim it's a slide into taking everyone's guns away.


One guy already said it won't work because libs "poisoned the well"

Blame everyone but the NRA I guess. Gun owners are to remain blameless!
 
2017-11-06 11:34:32 AM  
I prefer the "waiting period" test.  Someone buys a gun and then you immediately take it away from them and but it on a table behind you.  Then fold your arms and stare at them.  If they get anxious or twitchy within five minutes about not having the gun in their hands, they fail the waiting period test and you refund their money.
 
2017-11-06 11:35:10 AM  

jasonvatch: All firearms should be registered to their owners.


Ask Holocaust victims and DREAMers about the joys of being on government lists.
 
2017-11-06 11:35:28 AM  

abhorrent1: Chris Ween: Ok.

This last guy was loony and dangerous and lots of people knew it.  But he still got guns.  Did he go through a background check?

Not sure if he did at the point of purchase but on the press conference just now they said all checks the police did came back clean. So even if he did go through it, it wouldn't have prohibited him from buying a gun.

I live in Illinois and already have to go through one to get a FOID card in order to own a gun. The Vegas guy went through them as well and there was nothing to keep him from owning guns either. AFAIK neither of these guys bought their guns illicitly. They were all legally purchased.

If people want them, do them. but lets not pretend background checks wouldn't have prevented either of those shootings.


Sounds like we need stricter criteria, no?
 
2017-11-06 11:35:29 AM  
I would rather have the NICS have a simple web portal and a phone in system instead of having to traipse all over the place.  But sure.
 
2017-11-06 11:36:23 AM  

hobbes0022: Something that would help fund the local police department


I thought that's why we had civil forfeiture.
 
2017-11-06 11:36:32 AM  

This text is now purple: jasonvatch: All firearms should be registered to their owners.

Ask Holocaust victims and DREAMers about the joys of being on government lists.


Dude.

You're already on several government lists. This argument is laughable.
 
2017-11-06 11:38:18 AM  
The GOP is dying to have a Constitutional Convention. I hear repealing the 2nd Amendment is Session's wish list.
 
2017-11-06 11:40:02 AM  

bighairyguy: I prefer the "waiting period" test.  Someone buys a gun and then you immediately take it away from them and but it on a table behind you.  Then fold your arms and stare at them.  If they get anxious or twitchy within five minutes about not having the gun in their hands, they fail the waiting period test and you refund their money.


Waiting Period!  But i'm Angry NOW!
 
2017-11-06 11:40:24 AM  
You have to keep a federal go-between the seller and buyer. Otherwise the true crazed gun nuts will flood the system with fake ids, fake sales, etc. to the point that the system breaks down.

You have to remember "When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty."

And the crazed gun nuts get to define both injustice and resistance.
 
2017-11-06 11:40:38 AM  

Free Radical: Chris Ween: Did he go through a background check?

Apparently he checked the box that stated he would pass a background check so none was performed.


You should go try to buy a gun.
You seemed to be badly misinformed.
 
2017-11-06 11:41:32 AM  

Free Radical: Chris Ween: Did he go through a background check?

Apparently he checked the box that stated he would pass a background check so none was performed.


If he filed out a form, a check should've been made. The only exception I can think of is if he had a carry pemit (only in some states, and I'm not sure about Texas) and you go through a strict background check for that including being fingerprinted. If he did buy it at a store, someone somewhere farked up royally.

Subby has a great idea.
 
2017-11-06 11:41:47 AM  
Taken seriously, you'll get a decent amount of support for #s 1 and 2. 3 will cause you problems, especially as written.

You need to provide for grandfathering (there are potentially hundreds of millions of unregistered or unserialized firearms in the US -- large numbers of them pre-date registration or serial numbering) for #3, and for bad or imcompetent actors in #2. If it turns out that the police did not actually perform a competent check in step 2, you won't get support for punishment against the party in #3.

The devil's in the details; It's lawyers all the way down.
 
2017-11-06 11:43:18 AM  

Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: Otherwise the true crazed gun nuts will flood the system with fake ids, fake sales, etc. to the point that the system breaks down.


There's going to be a rash of fake IDs being present to an officer at a police station?

Good luck with that.
 
2017-11-06 11:46:44 AM  

EvilElecBlanket: Free Radical: Chris Ween: Did he go through a background check?

Apparently he checked the box that stated he would pass a background check so none was performed.

If he filed out a form, a check should've been made. The only exception I can think of is if he had a carry pemit (only in some states, and I'm not sure about Texas) and you go through a strict background check for that including being fingerprinted. If he did buy it at a store, someone somewhere farked up royally.

Subby has a great idea.


They've said he didn't have a carry permit. He apparently also had a felony DV conviction which for whatever reason, didn't show up when they checked his record.

Of course it's been less than 24 hours so who knows how much of what everyone is saying is even accurate.
 
2017-11-06 11:47:24 AM  

EvilElecBlanket: Free Radical: Chris Ween: Did he go through a background check?

Apparently he checked the box that stated he would pass a background check so none was performed.

If he filed out a form, a check should've been made. The only exception I can think of is if he had a carry pemit (only in some states, and I'm not sure about Texas) and you go through a strict background check for that including being fingerprinted. If he did buy it at a store, someone somewhere farked up royally.

Subby has a great idea.


^ This does depend on whatever the hell it was that got kicked out of the AF kept him from buying a firearm.
 
2017-11-06 11:49:13 AM  

Can we all agree with one federal gun control measure?


All evidence to date says no, we can't.
 
2017-11-06 11:50:01 AM  

hobbes0022: abhorrent1: AirForceVet: Also, on a slight thread jack, if people must have photo IDs for voting, make driver licenses and state ID cards fee-free as well with offices offering extended hours for the working poor. Thread jack over.

And how do you propose that we pay the probably hundreds of thousands of employees at licensing facilities across the country?

We can cut our order for F-35's by 10%, re-allocate taxes, or simply raise taxes.


img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-11-06 11:52:02 AM  

This text is now purple: jasonvatch: All firearms should be registered to their owners.

Ask Holocaust victims and DREAMers about the joys of being on government lists.


if you vote, you are on a list somewhere
are you angry about that?
 
2017-11-06 11:55:21 AM  

This text is now purple: jasonvatch: All firearms should be registered to their owners.

Ask Holocaust victims and DREAMers about the joys of being on government lists.


Stop trying to turn every thread into an abortion thread. There's a perfectly fine thread about that abortion, Gomert, that you can crap in elsewhere.

Did the gubmint take away your car?
 
2017-11-06 11:55:39 AM  

abhorrent1: EvilElecBlanket: Free Radical: Chris Ween: Did he go through a background check?

Apparently he checked the box that stated he would pass a background check so none was performed.

If he filed out a form, a check should've been made. The only exception I can think of is if he had a carry pemit (only in some states, and I'm not sure about Texas) and you go through a strict background check for that including being fingerprinted. If he did buy it at a store, someone somewhere farked up royally.

Subby has a great idea.

They've said he didn't have a carry permit. He apparently also had a felony DV conviction which for whatever reason, didn't show up when they checked his record.

Of course it's been less than 24 hours so who knows how much of what everyone is saying is even accurate.


 I've heard so much conflicting information about the wording of his discharge that I haven't a clue if he could or couldn't own a gun. Completely agree with you about having to wait.
 
2017-11-06 11:55:41 AM  

EvilElecBlanket: EvilElecBlanket: Free Radical: Chris Ween: Did he go through a background check?

Apparently he checked the box that stated he would pass a background check so none was performed.

If he filed out a form, a check should've been made. The only exception I can think of is if he had a carry pemit (only in some states, and I'm not sure about Texas) and you go through a strict background check for that including being fingerprinted. If he did buy it at a store, someone somewhere farked up royally.

Subby has a great idea.

^ This does depend on whatever the hell it was that got kicked out of the AF kept him from buying a firearm.


I thought it was for assault on his wife and child.  Unsure though.
 
2017-11-06 12:05:43 PM  

enry: EvilElecBlanket: EvilElecBlanket: Free Radical: Chris Ween: Did he go through a background check?

Apparently he checked the box that stated he would pass a background check so none was performed.

If he filed out a form, a check should've been made. The only exception I can think of is if he had a carry pemit (only in some states, and I'm not sure about Texas) and you go through a strict background check for that including being fingerprinted. If he did buy it at a store, someone somewhere farked up royally.

Subby has a great idea.

^ This does depend on whatever the hell it was that got kicked out of the AF kept him from buying a firearm.

I thought it was for assault on his wife and child.  Unsure though.


I've heard he could've had some kind of plea deal that would allow voting, firearms ownership and the rest, but there is so much noise, I can't tell if that's fake news or not.
 
2017-11-06 12:12:26 PM  

mrsleep: Free Radical: Chris Ween: Did he go through a background check?

Apparently he checked the box that stated he would pass a background check so none was performed.

You should go try to buy a gun.
You seemed to be badly misinformed.


He apparently bought the gun from an Academy Sports, so something went wrong.

If it turns out to be the case that the seller dropped the ball, it will be interesting to see how the NRA comes down on the issue.

Well, more predictable than interesting.
 
2017-11-06 12:35:07 PM  
I'm assuming this is in reference to the shooting in Texas. According to the latest on CNN, the shooter legally acquired his rifle after passing a background check. This is likely due to Kelley's convictions being in the military system and not entering the civilian side of things.

This also means that he lied a number of times on his 4473. Unfortunately, his BCD is not recorded on NICS, and question 11g states "discharge under dishonorable conditions", which requires specifically a Dishonorable Discharge. Kelley received a Bad Conduct Discharge, which is not recorded in NICS, and not "dishonorable" according to how ATF poses the question. But he most likely lied on questions 11b and 11c.

He also likely lied about his domestic violence conviction as that's an automatic no-go, but it not showing up in NICS due to this happening while he was in the military.

So not to be snarky or anything but how would this suggestion have prevented this shooting? You'll find that apart from a handful (Lanza) of times, these shooters acquired their firearms legally- no "gun show loophole", not sale in the Wal-Mart parking lot. They all passed a NICS background check. You'll find that even if you go to a gun show, they're going to make you fill out a 4473 and run a NICS check.
 
2017-11-06 12:51:00 PM  

CthulhuCalling: I'm assuming this is in reference to the shooting in Texas. According to the latest on CNN, the shooter legally acquired his rifle after passing a background check. This is likely due to Kelley's convictions being in the military system and not entering the civilian side of things.

This also means that he lied a number of times on his 4473. Unfortunately, his BCD is not recorded on NICS, and question 11g states "discharge under dishonorable conditions", which requires specifically a Dishonorable Discharge. Kelley received a Bad Conduct Discharge, which is not recorded in NICS, and not "dishonorable" according to how ATF poses the question. But he most likely lied on questions 11b and 11c.

He also likely lied about his domestic violence conviction as that's an automatic no-go, but it not showing up in NICS due to this happening while he was in the military.

So not to be snarky or anything but how would this suggestion have prevented this shooting? You'll find that apart from a handful (Lanza) of times, these shooters acquired their firearms legally- no "gun show loophole", not sale in the Wal-Mart parking lot. They all passed a NICS background check. You'll find that even if you go to a gun show, they're going to make you fill out a 4473 and run a NICS check.


Well, if he was in a database that said he could not legally have a gun, but he is able to pass a background check anyway, it sounds the background check system needs to be corrected.
 
2017-11-06 12:55:50 PM  
fully agree.    No exceptions no loopholes  no handing over of gun until background check is complete and passes.

Gun shoes and private sales must conduct background checks with a licensed gun dealer if necessary holds on to the gun being sold/transferred.

Will this stop someone who is determined to get a gun and is willing to do what ever it takes to get one, including breaking laws to do so?    No there are just too many guns out there  and quite possibly people who legally buy components and assemble into functional guns and sell them under the table in clear violation of multiple laws.

That said if this even contributes to stopping one crime before it happens it is worth it,.
 
2017-11-06 12:56:59 PM  

grimlock1972: fully agree.    No exceptions no loopholes  no handing over of gun until background check is complete and passes.

Gun shoes Shows and private sales must conduct background checks with a licensed gun dealer if necessary holds on to the gun being sold/transferred.

Will this stop someone who is determined to get a gun and is willing to do what ever it takes to get one, including breaking laws to do so?    No there are just too many guns out there  and quite possibly people who legally buy components and assemble into functional guns and sell them under the table in clear violation of multiple laws.

That said if this even contributes to stopping one crime before it happens it is worth it,.

 
2017-11-06 01:00:48 PM  

EvilElecBlanket: enry: EvilElecBlanket: EvilElecBlanket: Free Radical: Chris Ween: Did he go through a background check?

Apparently he checked the box that stated he would pass a background check so none was performed.

If he filed out a form, a check should've been made. The only exception I can think of is if he had a carry pemit (only in some states, and I'm not sure about Texas) and you go through a strict background check for that including being fingerprinted. If he did buy it at a store, someone somewhere farked up royally.

Subby has a great idea.

^ This does depend on whatever the hell it was that got kicked out of the AF kept him from buying a firearm.

I thought it was for assault on his wife and child.  Unsure though.

I've heard he could've had some kind of plea deal that would allow voting, firearms ownership and the rest, but there is so much noise, I can't tell if that's fake news or not.


What I heard from Pete Williams on MSNBC was shooter had an assault conviction but not a specific DV conviction(there may not be such a thing under UCMJ) which may not have prohibited the purchase.
 
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