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(Guardian)   Hey, guys, you want to treat women better? You can start by doing these things   ( theguardian.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, women, 2008 singles, 2007 singles, Want, 2009 singles, Gender, writer Nicole Silverberg, 2006 singles  
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804 clicks; posted to Discussion » on 17 Oct 2017 at 9:54 PM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-10-17 07:35:06 PM  
1. Realize women are people too. Don't be an asshole.
 
2017-10-17 07:45:19 PM  
Nah, I'm good as is.
 
2017-10-17 07:51:47 PM  
You see that beautiful woman over there?  She doesn't owe you a god damn thing.  In fact she's skeeved out with your creepy eyes just looking at her.
 
2017-10-17 07:56:38 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: You see that beautiful woman over there?  She doesn't owe you a god damn thing.  In fact she's skeeved out with your creepy eyes just looking at her.


I lent her 56 bucks. I don't care how she looks. Hell, she's my sister, you farking creep.
 
2017-10-17 08:01:01 PM  
Make her a sandwich?
 
2017-10-17 08:04:07 PM  

Voiceofreason01: 1. Realize women are people too. Don't be an asshole.


This, but I kind of feel that women shouldn't want or need my protection in the workplace.

If another guy is talking over her, she shouldn't expect me to stop him, he probably does it to everyone.

If there are no women on the panel/team take it up with the leader, don't expect me to sacrifice for you.
 
2017-10-17 08:19:37 PM  
Nowhere on that list did it recommend not saying "NICE CANS!" So I guess I'm good.

Seriously, though, that's sexual harassment 101: do not comment on a woman's clothing. Stuff like hats, eyeglasses and shoes are okay. Jackets are a grey area depending on how form fitting they are.
 
2017-10-17 08:46:24 PM  
EvilEgg: This, but I kind of feel that women shouldn't want or need my protection in the workplace.
If another guy is talking over her, she shouldn't expect me to stop him, he probably does it to everyone.
If there are no women on the panel/team take it up with the leader, don't expect me to sacrifice for you


You have protections in the workplace by virtue of being a male. You benefit from a rigged corporate culture. Women absolutely shouldn't want or need your protection, but they don't have much choice. Either people like you and I speak up and make things better, or we are responsible for keeping it unfairly favorable to men. I don't consider that to be a sacrifice. I consider it my duty as a decent human being.
 
2017-10-17 09:02:18 PM  

fusillade762: Nowhere on that list did it recommend not saying "NICE CANS!" So I guess I'm good.

Seriously, though, that's sexual harassment 101: do not comment on a woman's clothing. Stuff like hats, eyeglasses and shoes are okay. Jackets are a grey area depending on how form fitting they are.


Copy of Airplane! Where did you get that dress
Youtube 3jveQCzNJcU
 
2017-10-17 09:24:37 PM  
Don't be ugly
 
2017-10-17 09:39:33 PM  
Where's the "Hey, women, you want to treat guys better?" article?  Or do we assume that most all women treat all men well?
 
2017-10-17 09:47:11 PM  
The more I read articles like this the more I wonder why we ever let women out of the house in the first place.
 
2017-10-17 09:55:54 PM  
My doctor is a woman and my attorney is a woman.  I'm sexist.
 
2017-10-17 10:00:14 PM  
It's like recycling. I WANT to do it, but more importantly I want everyone else to do it first.
 
2017-10-17 10:11:37 PM  
But... if I follow that list I will have zero game left. :(
 
2017-10-17 10:13:08 PM  
I was doing good till the "strip club" item. DISQUALIFIED
 
2017-10-17 10:20:50 PM  
That list is like half really good, common sense points, and half really just designed for making me feel bad about being a man, and there's no way it speaks for all women. I've worked with women who would go ballistic on you if you dared to step in and try to protect them if you saw them being "treated unfairly as a woman" because that was their business. Likewise, I quit my job of 13 years in part because the woman manager was actively trying to get rid of any guys who wouldn't flirt with her and treat her like the store Mommy, after she successfully got rid of every other woman on staff.

Don't know what my point is. Just that in work environments, a lot of people of both genders are total jerks. That's what your HR rep is for, or lawsuits if that fails. Don't ask me to throw my career under the bus to make an issue of things if they're not systemic. If the boss is a jerk, call him out on it yourself.
 
2017-10-17 10:23:03 PM  
If a woman tells you that you farked up, and you feel like shiat, don't put it on that woman to make you feel better. Apologize without qualification and then go away.

I assume this is in an interpersonal context.  If I bomb a marketing report, and my female supervisor tells me that I farked it up, I shouldn't put it on her to make me feel better, but I hardly expect an unconditional apology and then fleeing will help anything.
 
2017-10-17 10:24:48 PM  
"An open-handed slap is justified - if all other alternatives fail and there has been plenty of warning. If a woman is a biatch, or hysterical, or bloody-minded continually, then I'd do it."

"There are women who take it to the wire. That's what they are looking for, the ultimate confrontation. They want a smack."

- Sean Connery
 
2017-10-17 10:35:57 PM  

Mugato: "An open-handed slap is justified - if all other alternatives fail and there has been plenty of warning. If a woman is a biatch, or hysterical, or bloody-minded continually, then I'd do it."

"There are women who take it to the wire. That's what they are looking for, the ultimate confrontation. They want a smack."

- Sean Connery


I don't get either "side" of that one, frankly.  Have I hit women in my life?  Yep, absolutely - when they hit me.  That, or them physically attacking someone else.  That's about it people.  Male or female, keep your farking hands to yourself unless someone else is hitting you or others.  The rules are the same for all humans.  Start smacking people around, get smacked.  Don't, and don't.  This isn't hard.

/can count the times I've done it on one hand though
//first one was a chick in junior high that decided it'd be hilarious to wing a full can of soup into my skull.  Yeah, fark that.
///third was a woman that decided she was pissed and was just gonna start swinging on anyone nearby.  How about no?
 
2017-10-17 10:38:19 PM  

EvilEgg: Voiceofreason01: 1. Realize women are people too. Don't be an asshole.

This, but I kind of feel that women shouldn't want or need my protection in the workplace.
If another guy is talking over her, she shouldn't expect me to stop him, he probably does it to everyone.
If there are no women on the panel/team take it up with the leader, don't expect me to sacrifice for you.


When I was in grad school with my wife, we got put into separate teams that lasted the two years we were there. The guy to girl ratio in the class was like 5:1, so the teams typically had 1 girl, 2 at best. I was in a group with four other guys. My wife was the only woman on her team. And the guys on her team basically spent two years talking over her and ignoring her. I knew the guys - a couple of them were certainly like that, dismissive, egotistical. One guy in particular was just a dick to her. It was pretty sh*t behavior.

There was not much she could really do about it. I suggested she confront them, but she didn't want to. It was more covert than overt, them ignoring her. I suppose she could have complained to the school, or spoken out more, but it's complicated, they were also friends and colleagues. Individually, most of them were fine. And I had no context, I wasn't in their discussions.

She was younger at the time, now she's had a lot more work experience and she wouldn't put up with their sh*t today let me tell you. She would have called them out pretty quick for their behavior.
 
2017-10-17 10:59:00 PM  
FTFA:  Don't touch women you don't know, and honestly, ask yourself why you feel the need to touch women in general.

Business setting?  I'll offer to shake hands, two pumps and break.
Social setting?  No hand shaking.

Situational awareness helps tremendously.
 
2017-10-17 11:07:26 PM  
Talk to your friend who is "kind of a creep" at work.
Huh?

Don't talk over women.
Doesn't this go for everyone? Don't talk over people. Besides, unless you have a good point...you know what, you don't have a good point probably.

If you are asked to be on a panel/team and see that it's all men, say something. Maybe even refuse the spot!
This is a problem. But I gotta be honest, I've been in teams with all women and they sometimes do the same sh*t to me.

When you see another guy talk over a woman, say: "Hey, she was saying something."
Yeah sorry, I don't think women need a white knight to butt in unless the problem has become routine or the guy is well known for being like that with women. Also you gotta be really careful in a work environment about confronting someone over their behavior.

Learn to read a farking room.
This is a pretty general comment.

Don't call women "crazy" in a professional setting.
I've been in a professional encounter with a woman who crossed the line with me. She was emotionally unstable. I've called men crazy too. The craziest person in my department is a man.

Don't use your "feminism" as a way to get women to trust you. Show us in your day-to-day life, not in your self-congratulatory social media.
What the fark does this even mean?

Don't touch women you don't know, and honestly, ask yourself why you feel the need to touch women in general.
This applies to everyone. Just don't touch people you don't know, unless it's to shake their hand.

Do you feel that any woman on earth owes you something? She doesn't. Even if you're like, "Hm, but what about basic respect?" ask yourself if you've shown her the same.
I'm sorry, is this an action I can take?

Don't send pictures of your penis unless she just asked for them.
My mistake.

If a woman says no to a date, don't ask her again.
A comment that completely misses all context. How about 20 years later? Is 20 years later OK? On the other hand constantly bothering a woman about a date is disturbing behavior.

If a woman has not given an enthusiastic "yes" to sex, back the hell off.
This is clearly someone who has never been married.

If a woman is really drunk, she cannot consent to you and she also cannot consent to your buddy who seems to be trying something. Your buddy is your responsibility, so say something and intervene.
We get it men are rapists, and if we're not rapists our friends are. I've never been in this situation.

If you do the right thing, don't expect praise or payment or a pat on the back or even a "thank you from that woman". Congratulations, you were baseline decent.
How does "Go fark yourself you condescending shiatbag." sound? Was that too misogynistic for you?

Involve women in your creative projects, then let them have equal part in them.
No, you should cut them out of the picture entirely. WTF?

Don't make misogynistic jokes.
Yeah, OK, sure. Never. Scout's honor. Maybe pick your battles a little.

Don't expect women to be "nice" or "cute" and don't get upset when they aren't those things.
On the other hand, if you act like an asshole don't expect people to be nice to you.

If a woman tells you that you farked up, and you feel like shiat, don't put it on that woman to make you feel better.
Be a man.

Apologize without qualification and then go away.
But also be sensitive and wussy. Women love that.

Don't read a list like this and think that most of these don't apply to you.
FTFY.
 
2017-10-17 11:13:30 PM  
Half of that list is just "how to treat other people regardless of their gender or yours"
Other than that, sadly, it still needs to be said.
 
2017-10-17 11:19:54 PM  

nicoffeine: Marcus Aurelius: You see that beautiful woman over there?  She doesn't owe you a god damn thing.  In fact she's skeeved out with your creepy eyes just looking at her.

I lentgave her 56 bucks. I don't care how she looks. Hell, she's my sister, you farking creep.


If she's family, you should probably just accept that you didn't lend her 56 bucks, you gave her 56 bucks.
 
2017-10-17 11:26:18 PM  

bdub77: Talk to your friend who is "kind of a creep" at work.
Huh?

Don't talk over women.
Doesn't this go for everyone? Don't talk over people. Besides, unless you have a good point...you know what, you don't have a good point probably.

If you are asked to be on a panel/team and see that it's all men, say something. Maybe even refuse the spot!
This is a problem. But I gotta be honest, I've been in teams with all women and they sometimes do the same sh*t to me.

When you see another guy talk over a woman, say: "Hey, she was saying something."
Yeah sorry, I don't think women need a white knight to butt in unless the problem has become routine or the guy is well known for being like that with women. Also you gotta be really careful in a work environment about confronting someone over their behavior.

Learn to read a farking room.
This is a pretty general comment.

Don't call women "crazy" in a professional setting.
I've been in a professional encounter with a woman who crossed the line with me. She was emotionally unstable. I've called men crazy too. The craziest person in my department is a man.

Don't use your "feminism" as a way to get women to trust you. Show us in your day-to-day life, not in your self-congratulatory social media.
What the fark does this even mean?

Don't touch women you don't know, and honestly, ask yourself why you feel the need to touch women in general.
This applies to everyone. Just don't touch people you don't know, unless it's to shake their hand.

Do you feel that any woman on earth owes you something? She doesn't. Even if you're like, "Hm, but what about basic respect?" ask yourself if you've shown her the same.
I'm sorry, is this an action I can take?

Don't send pictures of your penis unless she just asked for them.
My mistake.

If a woman says no to a date, don't ask her again.
A comment that completely misses all context. How about 20 years later? Is 20 years later OK? On the other hand constantly bothering a woman about a date is disturbing behavior.

If a woman has not given an enthusiastic "yes" to sex, back the hell off.
This is clearly someone who has never been married.

If a woman is really drunk, she cannot consent to you and she also cannot consent to your buddy who seems to be trying something. Your buddy is your responsibility, so say something and intervene.
We get it men are rapists, and if we're not rapists our friends are. I've never been in this situation.

If you do the right thing, don't expect praise or payment or a pat on the back or even a "thank you from that woman". Congratulations, you were baseline decent.
How does "Go fark yourself you condescending shiatbag." sound? Was that too misogynistic for you?

Involve women in your creative projects, then let them have equal part in them.
No, you should cut them out of the picture entirely. WTF?

Don't make misogynistic jokes.
Yeah, OK, sure. Never. Scout's honor. Maybe pick your battles a little.

Don't expect women to be "nice" or "cute" and don't get upset when they aren't those things.
On the other hand, if you act like an asshole don't expect people to be nice to you.

If a woman tells you that you farked up, and you feel like shiat, don't put it on that woman to make you feel better.
Be a man.

Apologize without qualification and then go away.
But also be sensitive and wussy. Women love that.

Don't read a list like this and think that most of these don't apply to you.
FTFY.


Jeeze, you read my frakking mind. Getting really tired of all this shiat when I know I'm a nice guy and I treat people well and expect the same in return.
 
2017-10-18 12:38:01 AM  
Learn to read a farking room.

... like, where the condoms and lube are kept, and whether that threesome in the corner wants a fourth?
 
2017-10-18 02:05:40 AM  

Voiceofreason01: 1. Realize women are people too. Don't be an asshole.


. . . is how I approach it. If I'm being less than friendly to you, it's because of your failures as a human being, not your gender.

I am not a feminist. I'm a humanist. I will tell a misogynistic joke from time to time, though I'm just as likely to tell a misandrist joke.

The one thing I've found that seems to annoy women the most is when I reveal the "secret" that buried down in the lizard section of our brain all straight men really do have that inner primitive who wants to drag you by your hair back to the cave. Many women I've discussed it with can't seem to make the distinction between explaining it's there and excusing the behavior.

It really is key to understanding men's collective behavior towards women. Down deep there's always the lizard brain screaming "Whoa look at those tits!" and doing an evaluation of how badly we want to fark you. Every normal man you know has made that evaluation of you, from about the time puberty landed on you. Except for (hopefully) your immediate blood relatives.Sometimes it's just the briefest of unconscious flickers, but it's always there.

Why does this matter? Since it's always there, how each individual man deals with the little monster varies with the quality of the person. Which is where 

Voiceofreason01: 1. Realize women are people too. Don't be an asshole.  . . .

comes in.

Most decent men realize women are people too, and keep the monster in it's cage until it really is time to do some farking and pull her hair - if that's what she likes. BUT there are a lot of primitive farksticks on this planet who barely have the impulse control of a cokehead on a week three of a bender. Again, this is not an excuse, it's an explanation.

What do we do about it? Hell if I know. I'm self aware enough to keep my freak on a leash and internal. It's all I can do besides remind other fellas they should do the same. Other than that all I have is "education." You come up with a better plan let me know, I'd be happy to help.
 
2017-10-18 02:10:56 AM  
When guys are 5, we don't really differentiate between males and females.

It takes us another 40 years or so to get back to that point.
 
2017-10-18 02:48:24 AM  

Some Junkie Cosmonaut: Mugato: "An open-handed slap is justified - if all other alternatives fail and there has been plenty of warning. If a woman is a biatch, or hysterical, or bloody-minded continually, then I'd do it."

"There are women who take it to the wire. That's what they are looking for, the ultimate confrontation. They want a smack."

- Sean Connery

I don't get either "side" of that one, frankly.  Have I hit women in my life?  Yep, absolutely - when they hit me.  That, or them physically attacking someone else.  That's about it people.  Male or female, keep your farking hands to yourself unless someone else is hitting you or others.  The rules are the same for all humans.  Start smacking people around, get smacked.  Don't, and don't.  This isn't hard.

/can count the times I've done it on one hand though
//first one was a chick in junior high that decided it'd be hilarious to wing a full can of soup into my skull.  Yeah, fark that.
///third was a woman that decided she was pissed and was just gonna start swinging on anyone nearby.  How about no?


I grew up always seeing my mom take the first swing at whatever drug addict she was involved with, and she always got the shiat beat out of her for it. I learned from a very young age, gender doesn't matter, do not take that swing unless you can back it up.
 
2017-10-18 03:18:40 AM  
Once every week or so, I get to read an article from some woman explaining why I'm borderline evil for existing.  I was having an alright day, but to hell with all that.  Here it is yet again... "Don't interrupt.  Always apologize.  Don't talk to me... You know what, just speak when spoken to.  Don't look at me -- I said eyes on the farking ground."

Then, in return for trying to be accommodating, trying to understand, and at (one point) trying to help this third wave insanity, I get shiat on way more often than I can blame on general internet asshattery.  And in physical reality, I get a movement that told me my wife and daughter are welcome in the shelter, but my son and I are not.

Moving on..... Half of those points are valid for everybody, not just men.  It's quite telling that they're all pointed only at half the population and where we sit in her world.

But that's not enough, there are rules for existing near this lady.  She's special, a princess, and there are literally rules for existing in her presence.  Look, lady, you need to stop expecting men to come to your rescue when you have a coworker problem.  There's your boss, your boss' boss, HR, various labor boards, and, if need be, the media readily available to help, but no;  George, the guy by the water cooler needs to stop what he's doing and swoop in to stop that one asshole who keeps interrupting you.  Do it yourself.  What the hell do you think the rest of us do?

/yay, rants.
//Hallelujah! Holy shiat! Where's the Tylenol?
 
2017-10-18 04:44:40 AM  

bdub77: Don't talk over women.
Doesn't this go for everyone? Don't talk over people. Besides, unless you have a good point...you know what, you don't have a good point probably.


Note the "Nope, still me..." technique deployed to great effect in this BBC documentary, showing a strong woman who will not allow others - whatever their choice of sex - to talk over her :

Claudia Winkleman is leaving Strictly - W1A: Episode 5 Preview - BBC Two
Youtube q_58Ug8Zc-w
 
2017-10-18 06:35:21 AM  

Voiceofreason01: 1. Realize women are people too. Don't be an asshole.


Threads over folks. Done in one. Moose out front should have told ya...
 
2017-10-18 06:47:56 AM  

Theaetetus: Learn to read a farking room.

... like, where the condoms and lube are kept, and whether that threesome in the corner wants a fourth?


That's actually the more advanced "finessing" a room.
 
2017-10-18 07:10:36 AM  

Voiceofreason01: 1. Realize women are people too. Don't be an asshole.


Pretty much.
And the funny thing is, the second part of your suggestion for every day life.

This world would be great if everyone just stopped being assholes to each other.
 
2017-10-18 07:12:44 AM  
Odds of seeing a headline like "Hey, Gals, you want to treat men better?  You can start by doing these things" still astronomically low.
 
2017-10-18 07:14:13 AM  
i0.kym-cdn.comView Full Size
 
2017-10-18 07:15:54 AM  
While I think that most of these are just good "common sense" things, they aren't valid for all women.  I've noticed something about the #MeToo thing.  It's morphed from straight up sexual assault and harassment awareness into things like body shaming, contradicting women's opinions, etc. etc.  In other words, the activists have taken over and are now expanding the definition to mean...well, whatever they want it to mean.

Women are not "one-size fits all" people.  Men SHOULD conduct themselves with a basic level of decency expected in society which most of the list covers fairly.  But "don't talk over a woman" in a meeting?  Sorry, but there are times that is justified.  If a woman in a leadership role says something stupid that needs to be challenged, I'm going to challenge it.  Politely, but with the same level of strength as I would a man.  And those women understand, or should, that it's not personal.
 
2017-10-18 07:52:16 AM  
Strangely missing from the bottom of the list...
And yet still be a "bad boy."
 
2017-10-18 07:56:24 AM  
That article was the most sanctimonious vomit I've seen since... well, since the politics tab yesterday afternoon.  It was clearly written at one very specific individual person and barely even disguised.  The kind of passive-aggressive idiocy that makes facebook entirely unusable.  Most of the list is things I've never seen any man do.
 
2017-10-18 08:21:18 AM  
If you need a list in order to know how to treat women properly, then the list isn't going to help.
 
2017-10-18 09:37:16 AM  
Can we add to this list: identify and respect when a woman is attracted to and consenting to interactions with another guy? I'm sick of "feminist" white knights feeling like they need to step in and defend the honor of a woman who is laughing at my jokes, touching my arm, and making it generally clear that she's into me. You aren't protecting her from shiat; you're just a jealous hater.
 
2017-10-18 09:40:52 AM  

MoriartyLives: That article was the most sanctimonious vomit I've seen since... well, since the politics tab yesterday afternoon.  It was clearly written at one very specific individual person and barely even disguised.  The kind of passive-aggressive idiocy that makes facebook entirely unusable.  Most of the list is things I've never seen any man do.


Yeah, it's kind of patronizing (matronizing?) the way she simultaneously suggests that mistreatment of women is a massive, pervasive problem but also that men who treat women well aren't special and don't deserve any recognition. You can't have it both ways.
 
2017-10-18 10:12:20 AM  
Do not at any time or for any reason take and send pictures of your junk. This should be an all-time, chipped in stone, never to be broken rule for guys. Don't do it. PERIOD
 
2017-10-18 11:17:00 AM  
I stopped reading at the combination of:
A. Give up job advancement opportunities if women aren't on the board/whatever.
+
B. Don't be a feminist or whatever. Doing stuff like A will be interpreted in the first way possible.
+
C. Don't even think you should be thanked for doing stuff like A.
 
2017-10-18 11:17:45 AM  

Voiceofreason01: 1. Realize women are people too. Don't be an asshole.


As usual, done in one.
 
2017-10-18 11:20:33 AM  

Boudyro: The one thing I've found that seems to annoy women the most is when I reveal the "secret" that buried down in the lizard section of our brain all straight men really do have that inner primitive who wants to drag you by your hair back to the cave. Many women I've discussed it with can't seem to make the distinction between explaining it's there and excusing the behavior.


No, not all men have a secret urge to forcibly abduct women. You are farked up. Props for fighting your instincts though I guess.
 
2017-10-18 11:46:27 AM  
Pardon my ignorance, but is feminism basically just the golden rule applied to a specific group?  Is that sort of the basic point, after which you can go in to details about wage gaps and things of that nature?

Please advise.
 
2017-10-18 01:36:03 PM  
I love articles that just assume all men are bottom feeding scum.
 
2017-10-18 02:22:53 PM  
Here's my list:
1. Treat everyone with respect
2. Treat women the same as you treat men

Does that make me horrible and insensitive?  Do women really want coddling and white knighting as this listicle suggests?
 
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