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(CTV News)   US: Coal 4evah dawgs. Rest of world: Yeah, no   ( ctvnews.ca) divider line
    More: Obvious, Barack Obama, climate change, climate change accord, climate change action, coal power plants, Unabated coal plants, United States, climate change commitments  
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5282 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Oct 2017 at 10:34 AM (9 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-10-12 08:43:30 AM  
One more step towards the withdrawal of the USA from NAFTA unless Trump gets his way.
 
2017-10-12 08:48:29 AM  
Good on you, Canada, but do something about your tar sands, eh?
/we're in a glass house here but just sayin
 
2017-10-12 08:50:33 AM  
I'm afraid we have to do what Canada says so they won't burn my city down again.
 
2017-10-12 09:06:43 AM  
I saw a post about Trump "ending the war on coal" by a WV congress rep today.  The number of his (apparent) constituents torching the guy for lack of awareness of market realities, mercury pollution, and yes, climate change made me feel good.  There are a lot of families in WV, KY, OH, and PA especially who've traditionally made their way on coal, but even the people of WV may be waking up to the reality that the old way isn't merely the Buggy Whip industry of today, but the leaded consumer products industry of today.
 
2017-10-12 09:51:23 AM  
The war on coal is exactly like the war on the telegraph and the war on the buggy whip.  And it will end the same way.
 
2017-10-12 10:00:38 AM  
The right wing radio idiots were talking about this and mentioning that Trump bragged about a few new coal mining companies opening in PA this year.  They said that proves there's a market for coal.  These people do not understand supply and demand, they don't care how much federal money we waste on subsidies for coal (or that it's the federal government "picking winners and losers" which they hate), they only care about stigginit and they know that liberals "hate" coal.
 
2017-10-12 10:18:00 AM  

nekom: Good on you, Canada, but do something about your tar sands, eh?
/we're in a glass house here but just sayin


Not much we can do.  Harper, in his infinite bloody-minded anti-wisdom, basically sold our oil sands to the Chinese in 2012 -- a move he later (and not much later) expressed regret over, most likely because of the massive blowback he got from the public over the deal.  (It was yet another of Harper's back-room deals so the public didn't really know about it until it was too late.)
 
2017-10-12 10:37:32 AM  
i.pinimg.comView Full Size
 
2017-10-12 10:38:14 AM  
There will always be a need for coal because, and I could be wrong on this, you need it to make steel.

But it has no place in power generation anymore. The world has moved on to cheaper, better, safer methods.
 
2017-10-12 10:38:32 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: They said that proves there's a market for coal.  These people do not understand supply and demand,


Brought to you undoubtedly by the same folks who also praise the "Invisible Hand".
 
2017-10-12 10:39:49 AM  
No prob yo, mo' coal4us amirite?
 
2017-10-12 10:39:58 AM  
Think how cheap coal will be when we're the only one who still uses it?
 
2017-10-12 10:40:07 AM  
How else are Russian aircraft carriers supposed to get to where the action is?
 
2017-10-12 10:40:11 AM  
Coal isn't the answer to middle America's employment problems.  They don't want to dig coal, they want jobs.  Coal is just shorthand for "remember when we had jobs?"  So get some jobs out there.  Set up some tax incentives to move some production out to the rural areas.  That's an actual workable plan that doesn't try to move backwards in time, and it will actually fix things.
 
2017-10-12 10:40:24 AM  
The irony is that for all of the GOP's shilling for coal, it's the free market that's killing it.
 
2017-10-12 10:44:43 AM  
We still have coal: out west. It's cheaper to mine coal in Wyoming and ship it 2000 miles via train than to dig it out of West Virginia. Sorry hillbillies, you're going to die in your self made ghettos until you learn to vote for not-stupid.

It's not hard. You have a 50-50 shot and guessed wrong.
 
2017-10-12 10:46:34 AM  

Preston Preston: Coal isn't the answer to middle America's employment problems.  They don't want to dig coal, they want jobs.


Automation has eliminated the bulk of coal mining jobs anyway. Its not hundreds of guys with pickaxes anymore, its 3 or 4 guys with one of these
img.fark.netView Full Size

The town coal mine used to mean thousands of good paying jobs.. now it means dozens.
 
2017-10-12 10:47:35 AM  

factoryconnection: I saw a post about Trump "ending the war on coal" by a WV congress rep today.  The number of his (apparent) constituents torching the guy for lack of awareness of market realities, mercury pollution, and yes, climate change made me feel good.  There are a lot of families in WV, KY, OH, and PA especially who've traditionally made their way on coal, but even the people of WV may be waking up to the reality that the old way isn't merely the Buggy Whip industry of today, but the leaded consumer products industry of today.


Mooney. I had some choice words to leave on his FB page. feel free to do so yourselves.
 
2017-10-12 10:48:56 AM  
I figured other countries would overtake the US in a variety of ways eventually because no one can stay on top forever, but I never thought it would be because we simply stopped caring and stopped trying. American exceptionalism my ass.
 
2017-10-12 10:50:35 AM  
And this, my friends,  is what's called regulatory capture.
 
2017-10-12 10:50:53 AM  

chewd: Preston Preston: Coal isn't the answer to middle America's employment problems.  They don't want to dig coal, they want jobs.

Automation has eliminated the bulk of coal mining jobs anyway. Its not hundreds of guys with pickaxes anymore, its 3 or 4 guys with one of these
[img.fark.net image 850x428]
The town coal mine used to mean thousands of good paying jobs.. now it means dozens.


And black lung and mine collapses.
 
2017-10-12 10:52:27 AM  

chewd: Preston Preston: Coal isn't the answer to middle America's employment problems.  They don't want to dig coal, they want jobs.

Automation has eliminated the bulk of coal mining jobs anyway. Its not hundreds of guys with pickaxes anymore, its 3 or 4 guys with one of these
[img.fark.net image 850x428]
The town coal mine used to mean thousands of good paying jobs.. now it means dozens.


This. Modern mining jobs are smaller in number and lean more on the skilled side to operate and maintain all the awesome machines.
 
2017-10-12 10:53:03 AM  

chewd: Preston Preston: Coal isn't the answer to middle America's employment problems.  They don't want to dig coal, they want jobs.

Automation has eliminated the bulk of coal mining jobs anyway. Its not hundreds of guys with pickaxes anymore, its 3 or 4 guys with one of these
[img.fark.net image 850x428]
The town coal mine used to mean thousands of good paying jobs.. now it means dozens.


God damn that's a machine. Are there good jobs in making those?
 
2017-10-12 10:53:15 AM  
But....how will we roll coal if there is no coal?
Expend electrons just doesn't have the same ring.
 
2017-10-12 10:53:51 AM  

Psychopusher: nekom: Good on you, Canada, but do something about your tar sands, eh?
/we're in a glass house here but just sayin

Not much we can do.  Harper, in his infinite bloody-minded anti-wisdom, basically sold our oil sands to the Chinese in 2012 -- a move he later (and not much later) expressed regret over, most likely because of the massive blowback he got from the public over the deal.  (It was yet another of Harper's back-room deals so the public didn't really know about it until it was too late.)


Let's see some kind of citation or verification of these statements of yours, please.
 
2017-10-12 10:55:08 AM  

Smirky the Wonder Chimp: chewd: Preston Preston: Coal isn't the answer to middle America's employment problems.  They don't want to dig coal, they want jobs.

Automation has eliminated the bulk of coal mining jobs anyway. Its not hundreds of guys with pickaxes anymore, its 3 or 4 guys with one of these
[img.fark.net image 850x428]
The town coal mine used to mean thousands of good paying jobs.. now it means dozens.

And black lung and mine collapses.


If we don't have black lung and mine collapses, then America will never be great again :(
 
2017-10-12 10:56:15 AM  
Ah yes.  If only China would get on board.   (Been to China? (not tourist spots) You wouldn't trust China's self-reported reductions.)

China is the largest coal producer & consumer in the world and depends on coal-derived electricity.
   And China burns much more coal than they report:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/04/wo​rld/asia/china-burns-much-more-c​o​al-than-reported-complicating-climate-​talks.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/12/wo​rld/asia/china-coal-power-energy​-​policy.html?action=click&contentCollec​tion=Asia%20Pacific&module=Relat​edCoverage&region=Marginalia&pgtype=ar​ticle
 
2017-10-12 10:56:36 AM  

Preston Preston: Coal isn't the answer to middle America's employment problems.  They don't want to dig coal, they want jobs.  Coal is just shorthand for "remember when we had jobs?"  So get some jobs out there.  Set up some tax incentives to move some production out to the rural areas.  That's an actual workable plan that doesn't try to move backwards in time, and it will actually fix things.


It would actually be cheaper just to cut every current and former miner a check with the understanding that the money is a one time payment meant to help them relocate, re-train, or otherwise go find some other way to make a living.

Except that would mean that the workers receive the money and not the mine owners, so it would never work, because socialism and communisticism, and reasons, and so forth, therefore...
 
2017-10-12 10:58:52 AM  

Gubbo: chewd: Preston Preston: Coal isn't the answer to middle America's employment problems.  They don't want to dig coal, they want jobs.

Automation has eliminated the bulk of coal mining jobs anyway. Its not hundreds of guys with pickaxes anymore, its 3 or 4 guys with one of these
[img.fark.net image 850x428]
The town coal mine used to mean thousands of good paying jobs.. now it means dozens.

God damn that's a machine. Are there good jobs in making those?


That's nothing.  Google to see what the Germans use for extracting coal.
 
2017-10-12 10:59:55 AM  
Trump is gonna declare war on Canada, and the rest of the UK, no doubt. Probably right after he nukes California.
 
2017-10-12 11:00:34 AM  
As of Sep 2017, there are 52,500 coal miners in the US:  https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CEU1021210001#0

For comparison, Whole Foods Market employs 91,000 people.  Think about that.  There are literally more fake Americans employed in elitist arugula distribution than there are Real Americans doing this Ream American job.

There are 13 times as many software engineers than there are coal miners.  That's not inclusive of managers.

And yet, coal mining has this outsized influence over American politics.  Maybe because it's more exciting to send reporters out to West Virginia to interview the locals down at the Gas N' Sip than it is to send a reporter to the office park in the suburbs.
 
2017-10-12 11:01:05 AM  
The "War on Coal" was waged and won by fracking and the natural gas industry.
Coal miners know that, but they just like to blame the damn hippies.
 
2017-10-12 11:01:34 AM  

chewd: Preston Preston: Coal isn't the answer to middle America's employment problems.  They don't want to dig coal, they want jobs.

Automation has eliminated the bulk of coal mining jobs anyway. Its not hundreds of guys with pickaxes anymore, its 3 or 4 guys with one of these
[img.fark.net image 850x428]
The town coal mine used to mean thousands of good paying jobs.. now it means dozens.


I suspect it has more to do with keeping Republican politicians in office that were bought and paid for by the coal industry than it does with mining jobs.
 
2017-10-12 11:02:30 AM  
Environment Minister Catherine McKenna is on a two-day trip to the U.K. and Ireland this week, pushing Canada as a global leader on climate change action.

Another of the many reasons the Kremlin wants the Trudeau Liberals out. Promotion of clean energy cuts into Russia's oil revenue.

McKenna is my MP, by the way, so getting a kick.

Meanwhile, Stephen Harper is enjoying mansplaining to Justin Trudeau that cutting trade deals with the US is not as easy as it looks when grownups are in power:

Powerful anti-trade forces that predate Trump's presidency are at play in American society and aren't going away anytime soon, said the former Conservative leader, who's known as an ardent free trader.

He recalled being told by the Bush administration when he took office in 2006 that NAFTA would never have won a vote in the U.S. Congress at the time. He described how Barack Obama campaigned against the deal. He believes trade will remain controversial, whether or not Trump cancels NAFTA, which he thinks could happen...

He said he wanted to avoid opining too much on current politics, so he declined to discuss possible solutions to these problems.
[More fun to watch Justin squirm---MF] He also declined an interview request. He offered one piece of advice, albeit in vague terms: He urged other parties to try seeing the issue through the U.S. government's eyes, and finding solutions it can sell.

Never mind that the sorts of solutions Canada can sell to the US are not ones a Canadian government valuing its support in central Canada (where most of us live, remember) could accept.

A Tory government less big on human rights or creating jobs west of Saskatchewan might be able to give Trump a win at the expense of people who don't consistently vote Tory anyway. The Liberals can't.
 
2017-10-12 11:04:26 AM  

nanim: Ah yes.  If only China would get on board.   (Been to China? (not tourist spots) You wouldn't trust China's self-reported reductions.)

China is the largest coal producer & consumer in the world and depends on coal-derived electricity.
   And China burns much more coal than they report:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/04/world/asia/china-burns-much-more-co​al-than-reported-complicating-climate-talks.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/12/world/asia/china-coal-power-energy-​policy.html?action=click&contentCollection=Asia%20Pacific&module=Relat​edCoverage®ion=Marginalia&pgtype=article


If all the other boys jumped of a cliff, would you do it too?
 
2017-10-12 11:04:43 AM  
Same with some farmers.  They grow wheat, their daddy grew wheat and their grand daddy grew wheat.  All that history doesn't mean that is the best choice if you want grow your business.
 
AOW
2017-10-12 11:05:39 AM  
Ya do realize they aren't talking about eliminating or even reducing the use of coal right? Go read the agreement referenced, its about eliminating unabated (plants with no emission capture) coal plants, the USA, Canada and UK phased those out in the 70s, the only industrialized nations with unabated coal plants are Russia, India and China
 
2017-10-12 11:05:58 AM  
Ask Canada about Keystone XL? Crickets.
 
2017-10-12 11:09:01 AM  

Rapmaster2000: As of Sep 2017, there are 52,500 coal miners in the US:  https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CEU1021210001#0

For comparison, Whole Foods Market employs 91,000 people.  Think about that.  There are literally more fake Americans employed in elitist arugula distribution than there are Real Americans doing this Ream American job.

There are 13 times as many software engineers than there are coal miners.  That's not inclusive of managers.

And yet, coal mining has this outsized influence over American politics.  Maybe because it's more exciting to send reporters out to West Virginia to interview the locals down at the Gas N' Sip than it is to send a reporter to the office park in the suburbs.


The coal miners have a better plan and funded group of lobbyists influencing politics.

If you want your job sector to be better, set up a PAC, hire some lobbyists and get everyone you know, in your field with the same overall goals and aspirations, to help fund this PAC and guide the lobbyists.

That's crazy talk, though.  It's much more effective to complain online to strangers.
 
2017-10-12 11:09:52 AM  

nekom: Good on you, Canada, but do something about your tar sands, eh?
/we're in a glass house here but just sayin


Our tar sands are not going anywhere.  The Invisible Hand of The Market (PBUH) took care of that.
 
2017-10-12 11:11:26 AM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: We still have coal: out west. It's cheaper to mine coal in Wyoming and ship it 2000 miles via train than to dig it out of West Virginia. Sorry hillbillies, you're going to die in your self made ghettos until you learn to vote for not-stupid.

It's not hard. You have a 50-50 shot and guessed wrong.


The Powder River basin is sub-bituminous coal.  it has a much lower sulfur content than coal mined in the bituminous regions of Appalachia and therefore greater market appeal due to emissions regulations already firmly in place.  no one wants to move coal thousands of miles, it costs roughly 1 cent per ton mile to ship.  the average coal train is 15,000 tons so that means the cost of the shipping alone is $300,000.00.  a 500 megawatt coal power plant uses 1.4 million TONS of coal per year. 

railroads love coal, it's easy to move and requires little handling.  CSX and NS know coal is dead, they have abandoned mainlines into the coal regions.  BNSF has reduced Powder River operations and have mothballed several lines to shuttered mines.  if they aren't chasing that easy money, well, that tells you all you need to know about coal.
 
2017-10-12 11:12:49 AM  
Does ending the war on coal mean they are killing fracking operations that are making natural gas so much cheaper than coal?
 
2017-10-12 11:14:33 AM  

UtileDysfunktion: I suspect it has more to do with keeping Republican politicians in office that were bought and paid for by the coal industry than it does with mining jobs.


Well yeah, all that automation saves a shiat ton of money. And theyre not passing the savings on to you... coal costs just as much as it did before. Where do you think that money goes?
 
2017-10-12 11:19:14 AM  

asciibaron: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: We still have coal: out west. It's cheaper to mine coal in Wyoming and ship it 2000 miles via train than to dig it out of West Virginia. Sorry hillbillies, you're going to die in your self made ghettos until you learn to vote for not-stupid.

It's not hard. You have a 50-50 shot and guessed wrong.

The Powder River basin is sub-bituminous coal.  it has a much lower sulfur content than coal mined in the bituminous regions of Appalachia and therefore greater market appeal due to emissions regulations already firmly in place.  no one wants to move coal thousands of miles, it costs roughly 1 cent per ton mile to ship.  the average coal train is 15,000 tons so that means the cost of the shipping alone is $300,000.00.  a 500 megawatt coal power plant uses 1.4 million TONS of coal per year. 

railroads love coal, it's easy to move and requires little handling.  CSX and NS know coal is dead, they have abandoned mainlines into the coal regions.  BNSF has reduced Powder River operations and have mothballed several lines to shuttered mines.  if they aren't chasing that easy money, well, that tells you all you need to know about coal.


I did an analysis for a power plant in Illinois that was put under a consent decree by the EPA.  The analysis was whether to keep burning local coal and install sulfur scrubbers, or ship in low coal (PRB).

Based on the market at the time, the break even point of the two plans was 25 years.
 
2017-10-12 11:23:52 AM  
It doesn't matter what the rest of the world does.  As long as the big 3 polluters the US, China and India continue on the way they are, any changes the rest of us make amount to nothing more than a fart in a hurricane.
 
2017-10-12 11:25:43 AM  
Thingster:
Based on the market at the time, the break even point of the two plans was 25 years.

and thus the rapid shift to natural gas.  coal is dead because it's farking dirty, even when it's clean.
 
2017-10-12 11:26:08 AM  
You guys want to see something funny?

img.fark.netView Full Size
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-10-12 11:28:49 AM  
The major issue I see about coal mines is that if they are abandoned and catch fire, no one will care about putting out the fires. West Virginia and Australia have lots of air exposed coal now that once it catches fire, its going burn for decades if not centuries. Germany has a fire that has been burning for 350 years. India has a few major ones just about a century old. Brown coal can burst into flames from ground water pressure or just a hot day.
 
2017-10-12 11:29:33 AM  

Rigger1955: Psychopusher: nekom: Good on you, Canada, but do something about your tar sands, eh?
/we're in a glass house here but just sayin

Not much we can do.  Harper, in his infinite bloody-minded anti-wisdom, basically sold our oil sands to the Chinese in 2012 -- a move he later (and not much later) expressed regret over, most likely because of the massive blowback he got from the public over the deal.  (It was yet another of Harper's back-room deals so the public didn't really know about it until it was too late.)

Let's see some kind of citation or verification of these statements of yours, please.


http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/harper-signs-2-5b-deals-with-ch​i​na-and-raises-human-rights-issues-signalling-new-era-of-cooperation

http://nationalpost.com/opinion/terry-glavin-canada-sells-the-oilsand​s​-to-china-then-complains-about-foreign-interference

And a 2016 update on how "well" it's all gone:

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Inside-Chinas-Failed-15-Billion-​C​anadian-Oil-Sands-Investment.html
 
2017-10-12 11:34:04 AM  

tdyak: Rapmaster2000: As of Sep 2017, there are 52,500 coal miners in the US:  https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CEU1021210001#0

For comparison, Whole Foods Market employs 91,000 people.  Think about that.  There are literally more fake Americans employed in elitist arugula distribution than there are Real Americans doing this Ream American job.

There are 13 times as many software engineers than there are coal miners.  That's not inclusive of managers.

And yet, coal mining has this outsized influence over American politics.  Maybe because it's more exciting to send reporters out to West Virginia to interview the locals down at the Gas N' Sip than it is to send a reporter to the office park in the suburbs.

The coal miners have a better plan and funded group of lobbyists influencing politics.

If you want your job sector to be better, set up a PAC, hire some lobbyists and get everyone you know, in your field with the same overall goals and aspirations, to help fund this PAC and guide the lobbyists.

That's crazy talk, though.  It's much more effective to complain online to strangers.


Software engineers and Whole Foods Market don't need lobbyists and government assistance to be relevant.  They supply labor and products that people actually want.

It probably wouldn't improve their lives much to be objects of pandering.
 
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