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(Gizmodo)   Scientists come unanimously to the conclusion that homeopathic medicine is complete nonsense. Still no cure for cancer, homeopathic or otherwise   ( gizmodo.com) divider line
    More: Obvious  
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1180 clicks; posted to Geek » on 02 Oct 2017 at 4:30 PM (10 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2017-10-02 04:38:08 PM  
17 votes:
It is not intellectually possible to read the history, formulation, and concepts behind homeopathy and come to the conclusion that there is any basis for believing it works.  None.  At all.  It is literally more reasonable to believe in pixies and magical fairy dust healing people of all of their ailments.

Once it became clear that there exists these things called atoms and molecules, and their repeated dilutions rendered exactly zero particles of any of the supposed healing agent, they quickly migrated to hand waving explanations of the "memory of water", literally claiming "quantum signatures" were healing people.

And after hundreds of studies of homeopathy, the statistical data is exactly identical to placebo.  Even seeing the expected number of "effective" studies acting like it works and "harmful" studies showing it makes things worse.  The curve is exactly as the predicted distribution for placebo across the data sets.  It's been that thoroughly studied and discredited.
2017-10-02 04:02:59 PM  
14 votes:
There's a word for alternative medicine that works: Medicine.

</minchin>
2017-10-02 03:16:22 PM  
11 votes:
i.imgur.comView Full Size


/oblig
2017-10-02 06:11:18 PM  
8 votes:

Short Victoria's War: [img.fark.net image 735x643]
/not really homeopathy
//but that makes it even more powerful!


Of course people who are vaccinated are more likely to use heroin.  They're more likely to live long enough to start using it.
2017-10-02 07:00:41 PM  
7 votes:
I had cancer, and I'm still here. Since the first chemo didn't work, they had to try a second. Which is usually a very very very very very bad thing. Except, even though my particular cancer was resistant to the original chemo, more aggressive therapy cleared it right up.

So I will argue that yes we do have a cure for cancer. It's called chemotherapy. Its success rate is actually generally quite High. As long as the person is not especially ill or otherwise incapacitated.

Far from perfect, but very few cures are. So you can say we don't have a a perfect cure for cancer, but given that the survival rate of cancer was 0% only a few decades ago I would argue that we've achieved something amazing.Especially given the variety of types of cancer and how complicated and aggressive many of them are.

Hopefully, we can move from a high success rate to a near-perfect success rate sometime in the next 20 or 30 years.
2017-10-02 04:57:36 PM  
6 votes:
Wake me when they ban it instead of make special exceptions for it in US Law.
2017-10-02 08:24:47 PM  
4 votes:

morg: I dated a girl that was in school to be a homeopathic doctor.


I think "doctor" needs some air quotes.
2017-10-02 04:40:50 PM  
4 votes:

Khellendros: It is not intellectually possible to read the history, formulation, and concepts behind homeopathy and come to the conclusion that there is any basis for believing it works.  None.  At all.  It is literally more reasonable to believe in pixies and magical fairy dust healing people of all of their ailments.

Once it became clear that there exists these things called atoms and molecules, and their repeated dilutions rendered exactly zero particles of any of the supposed healing agent, they quickly migrated to hand waving explanations of the "memory of water", literally claiming "quantum signatures" were healing people.

And after hundreds of studies of homeopathy, the statistical data is exactly identical to placebo.  Even seeing the expected number of "effective" studies acting like it works and "harmful" studies showing it makes things worse.  The curve is exactly as the predicted distribution for placebo across the data sets.  It's been that thoroughly studied and discredited.


And let's all be grateful to the fundamental forces that there is no such thing as 'water memory', considering everything that's been thrown into water over the last few billion years.

To quote W.C. Fields: "I never drink water. Fish fark in it."
2017-10-03 03:01:37 PM  
2 votes:

spaceman375: The original theory behind it has some merit.


No, it doesn't.  Spend 10 minutes reading up on how and why Hahnemann created the idea.  It has no merit.  None.

spaceman375: Given a set of symptoms that your body isn't handling as well as you'd like, find some chemical(s) that produce those symptoms in a healthy person. Give that to the patient in a small enough dose to barely affect them. The idea is that your body will activate whatever natural defenses it has against that example,


This is the position of ignorant people trying to peddle the idea that vaccines are basically homeopathy.... and ignoring all of the basic ideas of what an immune response is.  Nothing in homeopathy works.  At all.  It's the same hand-waving that Deepak Chopra does when he uses the word "quantum" to peddle his bullshiat.

Then you add in succussion, "memory of water", and tons of stand ins to daze and confuse the populace into believing in miasma.  In the end, there is no of the apparent curative agent, the agent doesn't do anything resembling what they claim it does, and there's no viable mechanism of action for healing.

So no, it has no merit.  In base hypothesis and in practice.
2017-10-02 09:12:44 PM  
2 votes:

morg: I dated a girl that was in school to be a homeopathic doctor. When I found out what it was it blew my mind. It's up there with Scientology.


But they have their own college and degrees and certifications! American College of Healthcare Sciences has degree programs in Aromatherapy and Iridology Consulting. I had to look up that last one. Apparently they teach how to diagnose health issues by looking at the irises of your eyes. Oh, and the Masters in Aromatherapy costs just over $21,000.

Here's a list of their courses.


I've worked with one of the homeopathic believers for over ten years now. She drinks some green drink that cleanses her and stops all of her allergies. She also cleans her liver using a concoction of olive oil and some herbs. I've tried explaining to her it's a scam, but she's convinced that her 'Herbologist' knows more than an actual doctor.
2017-10-02 08:10:10 PM  
2 votes:
I dated a girl that was in school to be a homeopathic doctor. When I found out what it was it blew my mind. It's up there with Scientology.
2017-10-02 06:57:06 PM  
2 votes:

SanityIsAFullTimeJob: I apparently had no idea what homeopathic medicine is, technically. I suppose I'm more enlightened after that article.


The snake oil salesmen that produce the stuff use the definitions to sell things as homeopathic that aren't actually homeopathic but have actual active ingredients in them.

You'll see 1X dilutions out there labeled as homeopathic remedies.  That 1:10 dilution.

Then I've also seen something (it was a skin cream FWIW) with  Northern White Cedar Oil in it listed as an inactive ingredient as well as "Thuja occidentalis 6C" listed as an active ingredient.  Northern White Cedar is Thuja occidentalis, so it had a oil used for a myriad of ailments and does have chemicals that interact with the body, and then they have a the useless dilution of said oil.

And that is all perfectly legal in the US because the homeopathic industry is allowed to regulate itself and issue rules on what qualifies as homeopathic.
2017-10-02 06:48:58 PM  
2 votes:

Ed Grubermann: [img.fark.net image 480x360]
"Right now I would take homeopaths and I'd put them in a big sack with psychics, astrologers and priests. And I'd close the top of the sack with string, and I'd hit them all with sticks. And I really wouldn't worry who got the worst of the belting with the sticks."


Dara O'Briain: Science doesn't know everything
Youtube uDYba0m6ztE
2017-10-02 05:14:28 PM  
2 votes:

PirateKing: Khellendros: It is not intellectually possible to read the history, formulation, and concepts behind homeopathy and come to the conclusion that there is any basis for believing it works.  None.  At all.  It is literally more reasonable to believe in pixies and magical fairy dust healing people of all of their ailments.

Once it became clear that there exists these things called atoms and molecules, and their repeated dilutions rendered exactly zero particles of any of the supposed healing agent, they quickly migrated to hand waving explanations of the "memory of water", literally claiming "quantum signatures" were healing people.

And let's all be grateful to the fundamental forces that there is no such thing as 'water memory', considering everything that's been thrown into water over the last few billion years.


My thought is that if homepathy worked as described there would be no diseases because we'd all have the benefts of the "water memory" of medicine pissed out by patients.

----

It bugs me that real medicine claims to work by having High Molecular Weight.
I think the "weight" of one molecule is gonna be exactly the same unless it's a different molecule.  (Note that it's weight, not mass. URK.)
That stuff works, BTW.
2017-10-02 04:45:22 PM  
2 votes:
img.fark.netView Full Size

World's most expensive sugar pills.
2017-10-02 04:34:24 PM  
2 votes:

PirateKing: There's a word for alternative medicine that works: Medicine.

</minchin>


Ah yeah. Storm was the first Minchin bit I ever saw back in the day. Saw him live several years ago--was a damn good show.
2017-10-02 03:27:57 PM  
2 votes:
Ain't no scientician gonna shoot my babies up with no autism juice.
2017-10-03 10:22:15 PM  
1 vote:

spaceman375: This is exactly the extremist definition I said is bullshiat. Thanks for reading. FAIL


Ok, so you have no idea what homeopathy is, or you're weakening the basics of it for your own agenda.  Succusion and memory of water isn't an "extremist" definition.  It's literally 100% of the modern explanation for what homeopathy is and why they claim it works.  In the case of memory of water, it was invented specifically because it was proven through atomic theory that they don't have a single atom or molecule of the "curative" substance in the resulting solution/pill.

You clearly need to spend more time studying this, not reading two paragraphs off of Wikipedia and poorly referencing them.

spaceman375: Just admit it, you are so convinced that you are right, of course you don't need to pay attention to the world outside of your own mind.


Yes.  In fact the topic of my ethics paper to graduate college was homeopathy. Not that it's hard to research and study.  Other pseudo scientific bullshiat like psychics and pyramid power are more complex (and have more plausible explanations).  The most calm and charitable explanation of homeopathy - using the facts it purports - should bring nothing but rolled eyes and laughs from someone with a basic education.  It's that bad.

Northern: Homeopathy isn't like vaccines at all.


Correct.  However many supporters of homeopathy attempt to claim that vaccines are basically homeopathy - a "dilution" of the virus.  It, again, is total bullshiat.  But they love to twist the facts.
2017-10-03 08:04:30 PM  
1 vote:

Khellendros: spaceman375: The original theory behind it has some merit.

No, it doesn't.  Spend 10 minutes reading up on how and why Hahnemann created the idea.  It has no merit.  None.

spaceman375: Given a set of symptoms that your body isn't handling as well as you'd like, find some chemical(s) that produce those symptoms in a healthy person. Give that to the patient in a small enough dose to barely affect them. The idea is that your body will activate whatever natural defenses it has against that example,

This is the position of ignorant people trying to peddle the idea that vaccines are basically homeopathy.... and ignoring all of the basic ideas of what an immune response is.  Nothing in homeopathy works.  At all.  It's the same hand-waving that Deepak Chopra does when he uses the word "quantum" to peddle his bullshiat.

Then you add in succussion, "memory of water", and tons of stand ins to daze and confuse the populace into believing in miasma.  In the end, there is no of the apparent curative agent, the agent doesn't do anything resembling what they claim it does, and there's no viable mechanism of action for healing.

So no, it has no merit.  In base hypothesis and in practice.


Oliver Wendell Holmes already proved Hahnemann stole homeopathy from an Irishman named Butler in the 1600s.  He just renamed it and marketed the idea.
Homeopathy isn't like vaccines at all.  Many modern vaccines don't contain anything close to the bacteria or virus that causes the illness (subunit vaccines), nor are they diluted or prescribed as a treatment to match individual visually perceived symptoms or patients thoughts on their complaint.  Remember, in homeopathy there is no germ theory.
Go to five homeopaths and expect five entirely different recommendations.  Go to an MD and expect to hear the same thing for most problems and a practical recommendation.
2017-10-03 04:29:21 PM  
1 vote:

Khellendros: Then you add in succussion, "memory of water", and tons of stand ins to daze and confuse the populace into believing in miasma.  In the end, there is no of the apparent curative agent, the agent doesn't do anything resembling what they claim it does, and there's no viable mechanism of action for healing.


This is exactly the extremist definition I said is bullshiat. Thanks for reading. FAIL
2017-10-03 02:40:30 PM  
1 vote:
The problem with homeopathy is with the fanatics AND the critics taking the definition to a ridiculous extreme. The original theory behind it has some merit. The definition that is so very wrong is that you need to dilute it beyond any functionality, which started out of fear because the original ingredients were considered poisons. The original postulate makes sense: Given a set of symptoms that your body isn't handling as well as you'd like, find some chemical(s) that produce those symptoms in a healthy person. Give that to the patient in a small enough dose to barely affect them. The idea is that your body will activate whatever natural defenses it has against that example, and those defenses will also affect the disease you want to cure. A perfectly reasonable postulate, completely lost in the noise of fanatics and critics who defend their already settled worldview, each accusing the other of not having an open mind. Can you be labeled an idiot when you are just plain unconscious?
2017-10-02 11:15:28 PM  
1 vote:

yet_another_wumpus: Khellendros: It is not intellectually possible to read the history, formulation, and concepts behind homeopathy and come to the conclusion that there is any basis for believing it works.  None.  At all.  It is literally more reasonable to believe in pixies and magical fairy dust healing people of all of their ailments.

It was bad enough simply using "like cures like".  The catch is that by definition, this was bad for you (and probably worse for someone already suffering from those symptoms).  So they had to come up with the idiotic "water memory" so that they were no longer poisoning you with so-called medicine.

I'm somewhat surprised that at least a few of them didn't work (possibly they do, but with unacceptable side effects).  But you would still need to study each "medicine" and determine if it worked and what the right does is (it is never 'statistically not present').


Some contain mercury, others deadly plant toxins.  Their mode of action and dose responses are typically well understood.  Zinc tablets and sprays have become very popular, but their use is not homeopathic but rather allopathic since a single preparation at an identical dose is being used to treat a specific symptom (rather than the "cause").
Of course, homeopathy was invented in the 1600s by an Irishman named Butler, and virtually nothing has changed in 400 years despite a massive increase in our medical knowledge.  But it is still very profitable.
Anyone else remember in the 1990s when medical schools used to advertise "allopathic" medicine and "holistic" medicine studies?  The holistic part was reiki, homeopathy, chiropractic, and other stuff.  That was the golden age of woo woo.
/Senator Tom Harkin strongly approves.
//Andrew Weil and Deepak Chopra too
2017-10-02 10:04:19 PM  
1 vote:

netringer: PirateKing: Khellendros: It is not intellectually possible to read the history, formulation, and concepts behind homeopathy and come to the conclusion that there is any basis for believing it works.  None.  At all.  It is literally more reasonable to believe in pixies and magical fairy dust healing people of all of their ailments.

Once it became clear that there exists these things called atoms and molecules, and their repeated dilutions rendered exactly zero particles of any of the supposed healing agent, they quickly migrated to hand waving explanations of the "memory of water", literally claiming "quantum signatures" were healing people.

And let's all be grateful to the fundamental forces that there is no such thing as 'water memory', considering everything that's been thrown into water over the last few billion years.

My thought is that if homepathy worked as described there would be no diseases because we'd all have the benefts of the "water memory" of medicine pissed out by patients.

----

It bugs me that real medicine claims to work by having High Molecular Weight.
I think the "weight" of one molecule is gonna be exactly the same unless it's a different molecule.  (Note that it's weight, not mass. URK.)
That stuff works, BTW.


The stuff you linked is a polymer, so by high molecular weight they are referring to the number of molecules in the chain. For example if the HA in your body is typically around 70 repeating molecules (made up number) this may be around 100 molecules. Based on my work experience, you tend to see higher viscosities (resistance to flow) with higher mw polymers.
2017-10-02 09:19:07 PM  
1 vote:

Khellendros: It is not intellectually possible to read the history, formulation, and concepts behind homeopathy and come to the conclusion that there is any basis for believing it works.  None.  At all.  It is literally more reasonable to believe in pixies and magical fairy dust healing people of all of their ailments.

Once it became clear that there exists these things called atoms and molecules, and their repeated dilutions rendered exactly zero particles of any of the supposed healing agent, they quickly migrated to hand waving explanations of the "memory of water", literally claiming "quantum signatures" were healing people.

And after hundreds of studies of homeopathy, the statistical data is exactly identical to placebo.  Even seeing the expected number of "effective" studies acting like it works and "harmful" studies showing it makes things worse.  The curve is exactly as the predicted distribution for placebo across the data sets.  It's been that thoroughly studied and discredited.


Last time an acquaintance mentioned homeopathic medicine, I offered her homeopathic wine.

The subject was not brought up again.
2017-10-02 08:32:10 PM  
1 vote:

seriously.though: gbv23: I still say acupuncture can help some people some of the time, regardless of the mechanism

but yeah homeopathy is bogus

Acupuncture does help, but I agree that's it's not for everything. I get back spams and acupuncture really helps with the more mild ones, but when it's a serious spasm I go straight to my doctor.


More and more studies are showing it does help. You can Google The Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic, National Institutes of Health,  JAMA, etc... and find numerous studies supporting this.

Just a sample.
https://nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/introduction#hed3
2017-10-02 07:41:49 PM  
1 vote:
Water memory is real and I have the proof.
Soak tea bags in water and the water remembers to taste like tea and change color.
BOOM.  Science Y'all.
img.fark.netView Full Size
2017-10-02 06:19:38 PM  
1 vote:
Ok, stay with me here. In Europe, instead of allergy shots, they have the equivalent desensitization therapy, but using drops under your tongue. If you live in the US, it's not approved by the FDA or whoever, so, since it's a dilute solution, it's sold here in the homeopathic aisle at the store.

This loophole benefits me, personally, so yay, homeopathy?
2017-10-02 06:19:33 PM  
1 vote:
I thought homeopathy was giving guys a bit of dick to "inoculate" them against going gay in the future.

You'd be amazed at how many of them fell for that. I know I was.
2017-10-02 05:54:59 PM  
1 vote:
img.fark.netView Full Size

"Right now I would take homeopaths and I'd put them in a big sack with psychics, astrologers and priests. And I'd close the top of the sack with string, and I'd hit them all with sticks. And I really wouldn't worry who got the worst of the belting with the sticks."
2017-10-02 05:28:46 PM  
1 vote:
I still say acupuncture can help some people some of the time, regardless of the mechanism

but yeah homeopathy is bogus
2017-10-02 05:25:42 PM  
1 vote:
Pff, who are you going to believe?

A bunch of people educated in thousands of years of empirical knowledge?

Or someone who's selling you a bottle of water that cures everything?
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2017-10-02 05:03:15 PM  
1 vote:
There must be .000001 of a scientist out there who believes in homeopathic medicine, and that's enough.
2017-10-02 04:50:56 PM  
1 vote:
pbs.twimg.comView Full Size
2017-10-02 04:35:32 PM  
1 vote:
exsqueeze me?

i0.wp.comView Full Size
 
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