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(Harpers Bazaar)   We are not nagging. We are just fed up   ( harpersbazaar.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, emotional labor, Gender, Emotion, Gender role, husband, Homemaker, emotional labor duties, emotional labor skills  
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4388 clicks; posted to Geek » on 30 Sep 2017 at 5:00 AM (2 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2017-09-30 03:21:47 AM  
39 votes:

ginandbacon: If something needs doing and you can only get around to doing it if someone else tells you to, you are an immature parasite.


nothing in the world works like this.  if you cannot communicate your needs and wants effectively, then it is not your partner's fault.  that's on YOU, not them.
2017-09-30 03:28:11 AM  
36 votes:
However, it's not as easy as telling him that. My husband, despite his good nature and admirable intentions, still responds to criticism in a very patriarchal way. Forcing him to see emotional labor for the work it is feels like a personal attack on his character.

so she starts off saying her hubby is great, but then he's not great.  And when she tells him he's not great, he feels sad and wants to know why...but she doesn't or can't explain her criticism (note how she SAID she was critical....?  phrasing.  its a thing) and then is shocked when her hubby gets upset.  note that its still all HIS fault.  For asking how he could help.

her: 'hey, you've been great with all the help but its not enough.'
him: 'why?  i'm doing everything you've asked. what's wrong?'
her: 'but I have to ask you for your help!'
him: 'well yeah, I can't read minds.  if you don't say something, how am I going to know what you want?'
her: 'you should just know it!'
him: 'you realize that nothing in life works like this, right?'
her: 'you just don't understand! [slams door, writes passive-aggressive blog/article]'
2017-09-30 03:13:33 AM  
31 votes:
So basically, this woman has these very complicated requirements about the level of cleanliness she wants, has taken on the entire duty of managing this in their daily affairs.  As a gift, she want her husband, who hasn't been doing this at all, to somehow acquire the ability to be able to make all these complicated decisions perfectly, without having to ask her for input on how she wants it, in one day.

Yeah, I'm going to go with "tough shjt", people don't read minds and if you want something a certain way, you have to communicate it, however much emotional labor it is.  You were asking for a gift that was impossible for him to give you.

(I'll mention that I don't see how cleaning should fall under "emotional labor"; her cleanliness requirements seem to be highly technical, in fact.  The act of cleaning isn't emotional work at all. If her goal is to eliminate the emotional labor part of it, i.e., needing to communicate what she wants, she could just clean it herself....)
2017-09-30 12:57:32 AM  
29 votes:
how dare men NOT foresee the future and read women's minds!

c'mon.
2017-09-30 05:37:01 AM  
26 votes:

Weaver95: ginandbacon: If something needs doing and you can only get around to doing it if someone else tells you to, you are an immature parasite.

nothing in the world works like this.  if you cannot communicate your needs and wants effectively, then it is not your partner's fault.  that's on YOU, not them.


Jesu, what are you smoking? Do the dishes need doing? Do them. Does the vacuuming need doing? Do it. Does the {whatever} need doing? THEN FARKING DO IT!

Seriously, take a look around the house/apartment and make up your mind. Does {this thing} need doing? Well, you have a choice. You can do it, or you can ignore it and hope your partner decides to do it. If you decide to ignore it, then *you* are the problem, not your partner. Grow up. If you need to repeatedly explain your wants and needs about such basic things as dishes/vacuuming/shopping/washing clothes, then your relationship is headed for its ending - like mine did. I never knew people could just ignore household chores then act surprised at the consequences. My mistake, and I've learned a lesson.
2017-09-30 03:31:44 AM  
26 votes:
What I wanted was for him to ask friends on Facebook for a recommendation, call four or five more services, do the emotional labor I would have done if the job had fallen to me.

Did you try telling him that?

This reminds me a lot of my mom.

"I want you to do X"

"Okay" *begin doing X*

"No, not like that..."
2017-09-30 02:48:55 AM  
25 votes:
Yup.

If something needs doing and you can only get around to doing it if someone else tells you to, you are an immature parasite. And yeah, it's annoying.
2017-09-30 06:51:26 AM  
22 votes:

Weaver95: "Buy a loaf of bread, and if there are eggs, buy a dozen."  and then I come home with a dozen loaves of bread.  yes, its cliche but when I get tired, my brain defaults to a base level of logical input command line arguments and manual input parameters.


That's not tired, and that's also not being a programmer. You were being passive aggressive. Own it.

/Speaking as someone with a few decades experience programming as a statistical analyst and having worked with hundreds of 'real' programmers, I would seriously question the competence of any programmer who responded to spec with those kinds of results. Either they don't understand English ("a" loaf), or they don't review their outputs to see if they're even marginally within a realistic range.
2017-09-30 05:47:19 AM  
20 votes:
She asks for a gift.  He suggests it's too expensive and decides to do it himself, which I argue is sharing the "emotional labor". She gets irritated that it isn't done to her standards and when he clearly doesn't understand her frustration, because she can't communicate it to him, she writes this rant.

Lady, the problem isn't your husband, it's you.
2017-09-30 05:52:46 AM  
19 votes:

Weaver95: he just wasn't doing it to HER standards


That's what you picked up out of it?!  JFC.

This here is part of the problem with some men:

Which is why he was frustrated when I ungratefully passed by, not looking at his handiwork as I put away his shoes, shirt and socks that had been left on the floor.

The fact that he's cleaning the bathroom needs to be a big deal and be given praise for doing it.  Never mind that she's also cleaning and taking care of the kids.  Because she didn't stop and acknowledge what he was doing, it made him unhappy.

This is another example:

"All you have to do is ask me to put it back," he said, watching me struggle.

He took something out, didn't put it back, and was upset because he wasn't asked for help to clean up a mess that he created.

The only "standard" that I can see there is that old adage of "pick up after yourself".  It's not something that should need praise or be asked for.  If you help dirty something, help clean up.
2017-09-30 08:10:17 AM  
16 votes:

draypresct: Weaver95: draypresct: Weaver95: draypresct: That's not tired, and that's also not being a programmer. You were being passive aggressive. Own it.

no, that's me being tired.  I spend a LOT of time writing code.

So do I. And if I saw outputs that far out of any reasonable range as "a dozen loaves of bread", then I'd try to fix my code, not blame the way the specifications were phrased (which were perfectly fine in your example).

abend U4096, STEP01

(Eyeroll)
Your specs are always written in English. If you need someone to write the program for you, you're not a programmer, you're a surly user interface.


I'm a maintenance tech. We have PLCs at work. People write code for them, of course. To my specifications. This has occasioned a long conversation with a programmer who thought I wasn't smart enough to block out functions, but that's a different discussion :P

I'd take both of you dumbasses out back of the distillation units and make you listen to the vacuum pumps without hearing protection until you quit trying to "1-up" each other.

Weaver, that joke is so old my now-deceased father told it. Fark off with it.

Draypresct, you're white-knighting for a cnut. Stop it.

And if either of you arseholes is going to come back at me, I'm not going to be here. I'm going to bed, and fark both of you.
2017-09-30 07:56:35 AM  
16 votes:
I am confused as to why this is called emotional labor.  The term mental labor makes more sense to me, as planning, comparison shopping, etc. are mental tasks. Emotional labor sounds like when I get together with girl friends who whine on and on about superficial stuff and I have to try to listen and be supportive without going into problem solving mode.

But then again, I've never been a "normal" woman and have always related better to men, so perhaps this is a new term that I've missed by limiting my interaction with girlie girls.

As for this article, it seems that this woman should be well aware that her hubby is incapable of providing her requested gift.  We all have our limits and short comings. If you can't accept that and learn to work around them, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

My hubby is a super genius code monkey. I've long ago accepted that his dirty underwear in the middle of the bedroom floor and the dishes and beer bottles all over the house are just invisible and inconsequential to him. He does what he does well, mows the lawn, takes out the garbage and that's all I'm ever going to get.

Accepting that and learning to work around it protected me from frustration.

BTW, if you're reading this AirForceVet, thanks for the month of Total Fark. Tried to find a way to thank you, but don't know how to get you a personal message.
2017-09-30 09:09:08 AM  
15 votes:
I like the bed to be made every day, wife doesn't think it's at all important, (and hey, maybe she's right, the sheets ARE gonna get messed up again.) End result; I make the bed.

Wife likes the towels folded a certain way on laundry day, I couldn't care in the slightest. End result; she folds the towels.

Any other way with these things would cause a ton of tension. If I folded the towels, (or loaded the dishwasher, or scrubbed the baseboards,) she'd be unhappy with the job. If she made the bed, (or vacuumed, or paid the bills,) I'd be unhappy with the result.

I work 9 hours a day 5 days a week, from home mostly, and lots of nights and weekends. She works four days a week, 10 hours a day, during the week, with some Saturdays. End result; I do 50% of the cooking, and am mostly responsible for making sure the kid gets dropped off and picked up from school.

When she worked part time, and I worked 50+ out of the house, those chores were adjusted accordingly.

I think there's a couple dynamics here. One is whether or not a person thinks something needs to be done. Another is HOW a person thinks a chore needs to be done. Finally, there are the things that must be done, regardless of desire.

So I make the bed because I'm the only person who cares about it. She folds the towels because they have to be done her way, every time. She loads the dishwasher because she likes it to only be half full when it runs, and has a certain way of arranging it. I take out the trash because I don't want to struggle to get the bag out of the trashcan in the house. I handle transporting the kid, because I'm the one who has time for it. She cooks on the weekend because I'll probably be working.

It's all give and take, and accommodating each other, and circumstances. If we weren't reasonable enough to do that, we wouldn't have lasted as a co-habitating couple for even a year, much less have survived ten years of marriage.

Just my opinion, and what works in my house isn't some kind of universal solution.
2017-09-30 07:33:21 AM  
15 votes:
You guys are all pretty obtuse if you couldn't follow the article. The lady wants the man to take part in the management of the house, not just in the physical completion of chores. He could do so by using common sense and communicating with her. Also needs to refrain from being deliberately obtuse, as many of you are.
2017-09-30 06:57:11 AM  
15 votes:

Weaver95: draypresct: That's not tired, and that's also not being a programmer. You were being passive aggressive. Own it.

no, that's me being tired.  I spend a LOT of time writing code.


So do I. And if I saw outputs that far out of any reasonable range as "a dozen loaves of bread", then I'd try to fix my code, not blame the way the specifications were phrased (which were perfectly fine in your example).
2017-09-30 05:40:24 AM  
14 votes:

ol' gormsby: Weaver95: ginandbacon: If something needs doing and you can only get around to doing it if someone else tells you to, you are an immature parasite.

nothing in the world works like this.  if you cannot communicate your needs and wants effectively, then it is not your partner's fault.  that's on YOU, not them.

Jesu, what are you smoking? Do the dishes need doing? Do them. Does the vacuuming need doing? Do it. Does the {whatever} need doing? THEN FARKING DO IT!

Seriously, take a look around the house/apartment and make up your mind. Does {this thing} need doing? Well, you have a choice. You can do it, or you can ignore it and hope your partner decides to do it. If you decide to ignore it, then *you* are the problem, not your partner. Grow up. If you need to repeatedly explain your wants and needs about such basic things as dishes/vacuuming/shopping/washing clothes, then your relationship is headed for its ending - like mine did. I never knew people could just ignore household chores then act surprised at the consequences. My mistake, and I've learned a lesson.


did you bother to read the article?  looks like that's exactly what hubby here was already doing...he just wasn't doing it to HER standards...which she is apparently tired and offended to bother explaining to her husband.
2017-09-30 07:21:01 AM  
13 votes:
I'm sorry. I can't help you.
You will have to work out your relationship issues with the people you are actually having relationships with.
My approval or compassion won't alleviate your situation in any way.
In short, Lady - there is no point in you telling ME this.
2017-09-30 09:46:00 AM  
12 votes:
I doubt the husband believes the house needs a "deep cleaning". He believes the house is good enough as long as it is uncluttered and mold-free. Only her fear of being judged by her girlfriends makes her believe that everything needs to be spotless.
Her emotional labor is solving a problem that only she sees.
2017-09-30 08:00:39 AM  
12 votes:

ol' gormsby: Jesu, what are you smoking? Do the dishes need doing? Do them. Does the vacuuming need doing? Do it. Does the {whatever} need doing? THEN FARKING DO IT!


Define "need doing". Examples:

Partner A thinks the dishes need doing after 3+ dishes are in the sink. Partner B thinks the dishes need doing after any dish is in the sink. Partner B fails to communicate this requirement to Partner A, and gets mad when it is not followed.

Same thing for vacuuming: Partner A thinks vacuuming needs doing once a week, but Partner B twice a week, etc.
2017-09-30 09:26:55 AM  
11 votes:

fusillade762: ginandbacon: Annnnnd here we go.

[img.fark.net image 480x360]

But seriously, you being one of the rare female Farkers (I think), what's your take on TFA?


I thought it was spot on although not necessarily presented in the best way.

I would probably have tried to make an analogy to what it's like when you have a new hire you have to train. It's exhausting. It takes longer to show someone how to do something than it does to just do it yourself, but it's worth it because eventually, they will be able to do the work on their own.

In the domestic sphere however, men rarely get to that do it themselves point.

There were two things that jumped out at me:

The whole Mother's day debacle--the incident where her husband took out the wrapping paper and didn't put it away (are you farking kidding me?) and when she explained what she wanted for a gift which he not only didn't do, but ended up sticking her with childcare while he half-arsed cleaning the bathroom.  She wanted him to do a little research, find a good cleaning company, and get some chores done really well. He did less than she would have done on a normal day and made her pay for it. Both times he was "doing something" for her which ended up creating more work for her and got hurt and defensive when she was understandably pissed off. It's like cooking somebody dinner and destroying the kitchen in the process. Thanks?

The second thing was how their son wants a farking medal for being a good boy and their daughter just does her chores and goes on about her business. At six and four.

When I walk into a room, I ask myself what needs to be done. When I leave a room, I ask myself what I should take out of there. A lot of men ask themselves what they *want* to do. And they feel like they deserve extra credit if they do an "ought".

There is plenty of data to back this up, women in domestic heterosexual relationships do the majority of housework, childcare, and eldercare.

Someone once told me that men have all of the power and none of the responsibility. That's obviously hyperbole, but it gets at a fundamental truth.

And I need to say that I have lived with some women who are like this--they will walk into the kitchen you just spent an hour completely cleaning and leave a coffee cup in the empty sink and walk away even though the dishwasher is literally two inches to the right. WTF? BUT men have that market cornered.

The emotional cost that the author is talking about is how much more work it is to try to get your partner to do something vs. just getting it done yourself. It's like being a parent. To nag or not to nag? Either way you lose.
2017-09-30 04:17:13 AM  
11 votes:
If you don't ask for help, you don't get help.

End. Of. Story.

/offer void when code blue
2017-09-30 06:35:56 AM  
10 votes:

UDel_Kitty: Not shocked by the gender differences in the responders here...I've long seen this dynamic in my family. Now, my dad is very helpful and will take a lot of initiative in doing some chores. If he thinks bathroom needs cleaning, or floor needs vacuuming, he's on it. Of course he does the outside stuff without request.

But for example, god forbid he do grocery shopping without being asked. He doesn't think about, "hey, I see we're low on X, I better note that for myself, or tell M." He needs to be sent with a list, he won't just go up and gown aisles like my mom who might see something on sale or remember they need more (possibly related to the fact that my dad does none of the cooking). Even if he goes to the store, he'll inevitably be home later looking for a snack and declare, "we're out of chips!" Mom: You eat them, and you went to the store, why didn't you pick some up? Pop: They weren't on my list.

About 10 years ago, my mom badly broke her leg, right before Christmas. She was in the hospital for 2 weeks, and then confined to a wheelchair for more than a month. I still lived at home, and my oldest brother took me aside and said that I couldn't allow my dad and other brother to treat me as mom 2.0. He made it clear to them that they had to pull some weight while my mom was out of commission. They learned, a little.

I don't live with my bf, but I can see the same dynamic happening. I think we'll figure out how to balance it though.


So it's completely assumed that your father has all the skill, knowledge, and energy to do all the outside work without guidance or assistance, yet when he "fails" at another task that is not in his expected list of tasks it's a problem?
2017-09-30 06:22:08 AM  
10 votes:
Not shocked by the gender differences in the responders here...I've long seen this dynamic in my family. Now, my dad is very helpful and will take a lot of initiative in doing some chores. If he thinks bathroom needs cleaning, or floor needs vacuuming, he's on it. Of course he does the outside stuff without request.

But for example, god forbid he do grocery shopping without being asked. He doesn't think about, "hey, I see we're low on X, I better note that for myself, or tell M." He needs to be sent with a list, he won't just go up and gown aisles like my mom who might see something on sale or remember they need more (possibly related to the fact that my dad does none of the cooking). Even if he goes to the store, he'll inevitably be home later looking for a snack and declare, "we're out of chips!" Mom: You eat them, and you went to the store, why didn't you pick some up? Pop: They weren't on my list.

About 10 years ago, my mom badly broke her leg, right before Christmas. She was in the hospital for 2 weeks, and then confined to a wheelchair for more than a month. I still lived at home, and my oldest brother took me aside and said that I couldn't allow my dad and other brother to treat me as mom 2.0. He made it clear to them that they had to pull some weight while my mom was out of commission. They learned, a little.

I don't live with my bf, but I can see the same dynamic happening. I think we'll figure out how to balance it though.
2017-09-30 05:56:28 AM  
10 votes:

SpaceyCat: Because she didn't stop and acknowledge what he was doing, it made him unhappy.


the possibility exists that he was telling her this so she would recognize his efforts and get clarification and/or further instruction.  we really only have ONE side of this story, tho and nothing from her husbands perspective.
2017-09-30 05:43:09 AM  
10 votes:
OMG, STFU.

I know that sounds horrible, but I lived with a woman that would seethe for days over some chore she mentioned but didn't exactly ask me to do. Days of angry glances until she'd stomp around and do it herself.

It was always my fault. When she moved in with her daughter she hated the drapes I had in my livingroom. She didn't say she hated them, she just harped on them until I took them to the cleaners. They were silk and the cleaning process totally ruined them. I waited for three months for her to get new drapes or even suggest we go look at some. Never happened . . . so I bought drapes and hung them myself. She was angry.

I cleaned out the fireplace and scrubbed the hearthstones until their former beauty was restored. And then I took a few hours hunting for (and buying) the perfect fireplace screen. That occasioned more anger.

OMG, that was an angry, angry woman. Funny thing is, we'd dated for several years (6?) and got along fine. She rented her place and I owned mine. Then she moved into my place and moved out six months later in a screaming rage fit.

That was 20 years ago. I still have the drapes and the fireplace screen. And I'm happy! Yay!

Wow, that was cathartic. Thanks internet . . . you're the best.
2017-09-30 04:10:13 AM  
9 votes:
Annnnnd here we go.
2017-09-30 06:19:29 PM  
8 votes:
An important article. But it leaves out one important point, making me question the *real* problem in this household: what things does Mr. Husband Guy do that you do *not* do, that *you* take for granted?

It might be that your husband lacks the inherent ability to see the little things that need doing. It's not an uncommon trait among men. That doesn't mean he shouldn't work on it - but if you have a dog that is great at warning you of danger, great at being a companion, and the best frisbee-catcher in the world, but also digs up the yard... well, you can try to train him to *not* dig up the yard, sure. But some dogs are diggers, and maybe in exchange for the wonderful things Fluffy does bring to your life, you'll also have to accept that either A) you're gonna have to seed and sod often, or B) your yard is gonna have holes.

Now, if Fluffy is mean, violent, shiats the rug, tears up the house, digs up the yard, and no amount of sincere effort improves *anything*, well, he's not the right dog for you. That could be because he's just a bad dog. It could also be because you suck at having a dog, and he hates you. Doesn't matter; you and Fluffy are not gonna be happy together.

(If you're about to be reductive and make some "MEN ARE DOGS" or "MEN ARE NOT DOGS" statement, well, you're an idiot.)

My wife is brilliant. Loyal. Caring. Loving. My best friend. Hard working. Moral. Everything I could ever want in a lifelong partner. But she sucks at cooking, and while I am pretty good at it, I am *terrible* at remembering it's dinner time. So, we eat out a lot.

She wants steady and secure. I am a risk taker. So she keeps the steady gig, and I experiment in various endeavors, with an understanding that I need to keep a minimum income going so we can keep the pink slips away while I try my hand at various things.

The article talks about "emotional labor". An important concept. But, some guys tend to be more likely to suffer in silence - so while Mrs. Writer might not see the evidence, it's quite possible that Mr. Husband Guy is carrying a *ton* of emotional weight for the family, and protecting them from his own internal struggles by carrying them quietly.

Everyone talks about how guys are supposed to now be open and sensitive, sharing equally with their partners in all things. Except: try being that guy. That was me, the first half of my life, and women chewed me up and spat me out. Bottling it up and keeping it to myself was a learned response. Distancing myself when confrontation loomed was a learned response. Giving up on the idea of hopping from one foot to the next to earn someone's love... same thing.

The key to happiness in a relationship is acceptance of someone else's weak spots, working around them, and trying to be mindful of your own, as best you can. Not trying to change them - or yourself. It's not that hard once you fall into it. "OK, you aren't gonna remember to do the laundry, no matter how much I yap about it? Fine. We're taking it out to one of those wash-and-fold places. It will cost $100 a month. Your monthly vodak budget is hereby reduced thusly." "Ya know what? I drink too much. That's brilliant. I'm in." Making someone else fit your ideal mold of a mate is never, ever gonna work. biatching about it, stressing about it... useless. Painful. Hurtful to both of you.

If your spouse thinks you're nagging, arguing about whether or not your complaints qualify as *nags* won't fix anything. Find solutions, and where you can't, unless it is abusive/dangerous, just shrug it off. A perfectly happy family does not need to do everything perfectly.

TL;DR: You can live a perfectly happy life even if there is pile of laundry on the floor - unless you decide that's the hill you want your marriage to die on.
2017-09-30 01:21:27 PM  
8 votes:
My husband is a stay at home dad coontil Monday). He manages our house, gets groceries, does pick up and drop off, etc. However, his memory is shiat, so I used to have to ask him to do stuff several times. We started using wunderlist and low and behold the stress on both of us has dropped considerably. We also have a shared calendar so I don't feel like the cruise director telling him what our upcoming events and obligations are. fark mindreading. Communication is king for a happy life.

I see lot of biatching online from my friends that their husband doesn't do anything and everything falls on them, but it often comes from the same friends who complain that their spouse does everything wrong. They are driving themselves crazy because they just can't stand to let their husband do a task without micromanaging it, even if his way is just as good. Some of them seem to have folded into their identity. They love playing the martyr.

It doesn't help that men are portrayed as idiots or large children in most shows and commercials. Men are often discouraged from paternity leave. They are also treated as suspect by some moms (you should have seen the thread on my mom group the other day discussing whether a male teacher and basically assuming the guy is a perv). At least 1 in every 3 visits to the store my husband gets "he's with his daddy today, huh." He's with his daddy every day, but people still feel the need to remark on it. Even my son's school has called me twice this week even though my husband is listed as the first contact and they know he does pick up and drop off. If we don't acknowledge that men can be parents and can be a contributing member of the household beyond a paycheck, there will never be an equal balance.
2017-09-30 10:40:35 AM  
8 votes:

AntonChigger: I love it when my wife gets mad at a mess that I didn't realize I made in the kitchen, but when I offer to take responsibility and clean it up because I am literally two feet away, she goes "no I'll just do it" and then proceeds to be grouchy about having to clean it up for a while afterwards.


Maybe your wife is not grouchy about having to clean it up, but because you're so self-unaware that you don't even realize you're making messes.

/kind of the point of the article
2017-09-30 09:36:26 AM  
8 votes:
As a stay at home mom (something I am normally loathe to admit in fark threads), I feel like I have an advantage here. My job is literally to manage the running of the household, so it is expected that I will nag. My husband expects that I will manage the schedule and priorities, and so do I, and so do the kids. Do I wish my husband was occasionally more proactive about dealing with certain things? Sure. But he also does work at both work and home, and he's a great husband and dad. So in our case, the clarity about our current roles works to reduce stress because our expectations all match reality. Someday when I work again, we will communicate to each other how expectations need to change, and then everyone will do their best (which is not the same as perfection) to stick to the plan. The people in the article have not communicated the roles they want to each other and made a plan. That's on both of them, not just one.

That said, if you're a person who likes to say to your partner: "Hey, could you pick x, y, and z up at the store?" then... Stop. Just stop. Install google keep on both your phones, start a keep doc called "grocery list" and then add what's needed there. Have them do the same. It is the kindest thing you can do for the person in charge of the grocery shopping. Better living through technology, people.
2017-09-30 09:04:57 AM  
8 votes:
"Emotional Labor" = "The things I do that I hate that I don't tell you about but you should see and praise me for and which I wish I didn't have to do but if I didn't no one would and it would drive me crazy so quit making me do this stuff I choose to do."
2017-09-30 07:26:42 AM  
8 votes:
Sounds like this couple needs to have a talk.  Sounds like a lot of couples in this thread need to have a talk or three.
2017-09-30 07:14:05 AM  
8 votes:

Weaver95: draypresct: Weaver95: draypresct: That's not tired, and that's also not being a programmer. You were being passive aggressive. Own it.

no, that's me being tired.  I spend a LOT of time writing code.

So do I. And if I saw outputs that far out of any reasonable range as "a dozen loaves of bread", then I'd try to fix my code, not blame the way the specifications were phrased (which were perfectly fine in your example).

abend U4096, STEP01


(Eyeroll)
Your specs are always written in English. If you need someone to write the program for you, you're not a programmer, you're a surly user interface.
2017-09-30 06:57:14 AM  
8 votes:

AngryDragon: So it's completely assumed that your father has all the skill, knowledge, and energy to do all the outside work without guidance or assistance, yet when he "fails" at another task that is not in his expected list of tasks it's a problem?


First off, I gave examples of indoor tasks he does just fine on his own, so he has the skill, knowledge, and energy to to plenty of things. And to be fair, my mom does plenty of outside work, but can't handle heavier tasks such as mowing the steep backyard or climbing ladders to clean gutters.

But cooking isn't hard. Taking inventory of groceries or other household items that need replenishing isn't hard. My dad isn't bad at abstract thought.

And that's the author's point. She didn't just want a clean bathroom for Mother's Day. She wanted a service to do it so neither she nor her husband would have to do it. They could both then do other tasks or play with the kids or whatever. She wanted her husband to do some of the mental heavy lifting (analogous to keeping a mental running inventory of items needed at the store) to call and get some quotes and decide on the best one. Maybe she needed to communicate it to him better (though we don't know that she didn't spell that out to him and he dropped the ball anyway), but that's her point.

If he had said that for Father's Day he wanted a garden service to come take care of the lawn and weeding and stuff, she is saying she would have called several companies to find prices for what he wanted done, and made a selection. She expected the same thing from him.
2017-09-30 11:27:55 AM  
7 votes:

Boudyro: From TFA she said "get a service if it isn't too expensive" he determined it was too expensive and focused on dealing with the primary thing she wanted the service for. There are a couple of points here: 1) Such services are always priced based on the region and, barring hiring an illegal alien or a random person, they going to be very close in price. 2) As far as I know, cleaning services as a rule do not pick up your shiat for you. You are expected to do that yourself so they can come in and efficiently dust/vacuum/mop/bathrooms, then GTFO to the next client. So her being annoyed that she had clean bathrooms but still had to pick up around the house would not have been resolved anyway.


There is a huge disparity in what cleaning services cost and what they will do (including 'pick up your shiat') I know this because I did the 'emotional labor' and found a cleaning service for an unwell neighbor who couldn't clean his own home. There are some who 'don't do windows,' and there are some who will dust all of your DVD cases with a Q-tip. He required one that would clean cat boxes. (They told me they would over the phone, they arrived for an assessment and told him they wouldn't, made the legally blind guy who can barely walk do it himself. Pissed me off, but there was nothing I could do about it by then.) If you're going to hire someone to do a thing, you don't quit after checking ONE.

But, here's the thing, we women do this to ourselves. At least, I do, and it sounds like the woman in the article does, too. Yes, you are taught to take on these sorts of tasks quietly and just get them done. When you do that, your partner never learns how to do these tasks and, half the time, never realizes they need doing. Inventorying the food and keeping a running tally of what you need to get at the store (and being able to adjust that for what's on sale, and meal-planning), that is HARD. Vetting a cleaning service is HARD. Keeping the laundry sorted and knowing who's running low on what clothing item and what load needs doing - HARD. It has to be learned. If the man (or clueless, non-gendered person) in your life did not pick up those skills prior to the relationship, they need time within the relationship to learn them. And, if you're the one who knows how, you have to show them... and be patient with them when they screw it up because they WILL screw it up, or at least not perform it to your standards.

I am not that patient. My husband has basically ceded the food and the kitchen to me, because I know how to manage it and he doesn't and I get irritated when he doesn't and I figure I'll probably outlive him or we'll go out together in some kind of glorious fireball. I asked him to make Jello, once. He made the Jello wrong. He produced Jello, but he used many more dishes than he needed. (All you need is the medium-sized measuring cup and a whisk, and two goblets to pour the Jello into. You make it with ice so it sets faster and you don't have to boil the water on the stove, it just needs to be hot enough to dissolve the sugar. Two minutes in the microwave will do it.) But I caught myself, while complaining about this, because, how the hell was he supposed to know? When was the last time he made Jello? Only the thing with the ice is on the package, and it's segregated in its own little box away from the directions. And of course I didn't think to tell him about it because I've made it so many times it seems obvious. And that is just a teeny-tiny thing. 'Fastest Jello with the fewest dishes that takes up the least space in the fridge.' This woman's husband vetted the cleaning companies wrong, but that is WAY more complicated. She either has to be willing to teach him (and he has to be willing to learn), or she has to be willing to throw him into the water and let him screw up until he figures it out on his own - while still being supportive of the effort. That is also really hard. It is so much easier to just do it, and then we wonder how our partners can be so stupid.

And your partner knows you think he is being stupid, and you are impatient with him. That's why they cleave so strongly to shopping lists and precise instructions and being told what to do. "Well, when I get it wrong, you get pissed off, so just tell me exactly what you want and I'll do that." That's easier, but it results in the man (or clueless, non-gendered person) going to the store and coming home without the chips he wanted because they weren't on the list. And then you get irritated with him for that.

Yeah, it would be great if everyone picked up these things as they matured, but for whatever reasons (nature/nurture) some don't. When you're in a relationship with someone who doesn't know how laundry works, you can either teach them, let them figure it out themselves, or do it forever. The option that results in the 'emotional labor' and the nagging and the clueless spouse is the one that results in fewer ruined clothes (or dishes, or botched attempts to solve the 'clean bathroom' problem), so that's the one we go with. I'm not saying I'm better than this, I'm not, but it's a systemic problem rather than one partner or the other, and it's beyond simple communication. There's an experience gap, and those of us who have the experience help perpetuate it.
2017-09-30 10:46:40 AM  
7 votes:

AntonChigger: stainedglassdoll: AntonChigger: I love it when my wife gets mad at a mess that I didn't realize I made in the kitchen, but when I offer to take responsibility and clean it up because I am literally two feet away, she goes "no I'll just do it" and then proceeds to be grouchy about having to clean it up for a while afterwards.

Maybe your wife is not grouchy about having to clean it up, but because you're so self-unaware that you don't even realize you're making messes.

/kind of the point of the article

Yeah I'm workin on it, but it would be nice to be given the opportunity to take responsibility for my mistakes and fix them so I can improve myself.

/marriage is always a work in progress


Maybe don't "offer" to take care of it, or wait to be "given the opportunity", but just start doing it.
2017-09-30 10:34:06 AM  
7 votes:

draypresct: -he was doing the thing I had most wanted-giving me sparkling bathrooms without having to do it myself. Which is why he was frustrated when I ungratefully passed by, not looking at his handiwork
Good managers give feedback on the result; it seems like she didn't care about the result, only the process.


You clipped this of its context in order to intentionally distort the article. Allow me to restore it:
In his mind, he was doing the thing I had most wanted-giving me sparkling bathrooms without having to do it myself. Which is why he was frustrated when I ungratefully passed by, not looking at his handiwork as I put away his shoes, shirt and socks that had been left on the floor. I stumbled over the box of gift wrap... I had to get a kitchen chair and drag it into our closet so I could reach the shelf where it belonged.

That, in fact, wasn't the thing she had most wanted. It didn't achieve the result she wanted, so it's not that she didn't care about the result, but rather, her desired result - being able to relax - was unfulfilled.

You're misrepresenting the article in the same way that Weaver, AeroJockey, and AngryDragon were. It's not about some level of cleanliness she wants or whether it's "up to her standards", but rather that she would like the household tasks done without having to spend any thought or effort on it.The previous sentence, that you also clipped out, highlights this:
I was gifted a necklace for Mother's Day while my husband stole away to deep clean the bathrooms, leaving me to care for our children as the rest of the house fell into total disarray.

Had he hired a cleaning service, then she could be relaxing in the hammock with a drink and a book while he took care of the kids and house. Y'know, the sort of thing dads reasonably expect (and get) for father's day.

/that said, he seems clueless and she seems to be a terrible communicator, though hopefully, he reads this article
2017-09-30 08:37:48 AM  
7 votes:

UDel_Kitty: ....But cooking isn't hard. ....


I don't think cooking is hard, but I've known plenty of people who do.

Do not assume people have the skills and knowledge you do. You kind of blow your argument by including cooking when saying how easy stuff is.

Every relationship has its own dynamics, and I'm not going to assume I understand someone else's from a short article. However, she clearly needs to have a long discussion with her husband.
2017-09-30 08:07:28 AM  
7 votes:

UDel_Kitty: She expected the same thing from him.


I'm going to target this one line and hope it doesn't explode in my face.

Expectations are the idealizations of self-actualization. What are you expecting of a person who is not you? Is it something that is you? How can somebody who is not you provide something that you expect when they don't share the same brain?

Yes, you literally need to make a list for a separate entity if you expect that entity to do anything not prescribed within its ordinary script.

/probably explode anyway
2017-09-30 06:23:44 AM  
7 votes:

AngryDragon: She asks for a gift.  He suggests it's too expensive and decides to do it himself, which I argue is sharing the "emotional labor". She gets irritated that it isn't done to her standards and when he clearly doesn't understand her frustration, because she can't communicate it to him, she writes this rant.

Lady, the problem isn't your husband, it's you.


So basically he bought her a necklace and cleaned  the bathrooms himself and she she still writes an article to explain in all seriousness how he failed to meet her expectations by failing to address and solve the problem exactly the way that she would solve it.   There is a problem here, but it's not what you think...
2017-09-30 10:59:38 PM  
6 votes:
"Emotional labor is the unpaid job men still don't understand."

img.fark.net
2017-09-30 11:00:00 AM  
6 votes:

chaosangel: I am confused as to why this is called emotional labor.


It's because the author heard a sociological term she didn't understand, but wanted to use it anyway.

"Emotional labor" refers to literally that -- having to emote in certain ways as a requirement of your job. Think customer service type jobs. Gotta be "happy" regardless how you actually feel; most of what you do is selling your smile for a wage.

Honestly can't tell what the author thinks it means.
2017-09-30 10:13:46 AM  
6 votes:

ginandbacon: I would probably have tried to make an analogy to what it's like when you have a new hire you have to train. It's exhausting. It takes longer to show someone how to do something than it does to just do it yourself, but it's worth it because eventually, they will be able to do the work on their own.

In the domestic sphere however, men rarely get to that do it themselves point.


I like your analogy (and your well-written post).

I would extend it a bit further, though. There exist good bosses and bad bosses, and training a new employee takes time, effort, and lots of communication. It sounds like that last element was a bit lacking, here.

There were also a few hints that this person might be micromanaging:
-since I control the budget
The budget is a pretty important part of a marriage; having one partner control it completely is usually a bad sign, although maybe he's just incompetent with money.

-What I wanted was for him to ask friends on Facebook for a recommendation, call four or five more services, do the emotional labor I would have done if the job had fallen to me
She's specifying the process, not the result. That's something a manager should only do with a brand-new, inexperienced employee.

-he was doing the thing I had most wanted-giving me sparkling bathrooms without having to do it myself. Which is why he was frustrated when I ungratefully passed by, not looking at his handiwork
Good managers give feedback on the result; it seems like she didn't care about the result, only the process.

-he called a single service, decided they were too expensive, and vowed to clean the bathrooms himself. He still gave me the choice, of course. He told me the high dollar amount of completing the cleaning services I requested
Unless he specifically picked an expensive service, it sounds like he assumed that any cleaning service he called would be within a reasonable range of each other, since they are competing with each other. When their price was much larger than he'd expected, he suggested a different solution instead of trying to shave 20% off that price by calling competitors.

-I don't want to micromanage housework. I want a partner with equal initiative.
This doesn't fit the rest of the clues in the article.

It's always difficult when two people who have lived on their own for a while start living together. You get used to thinking that "This is how I do X, so other methods are wrong." One way of handling this is for the two people to divide up the chores; that way each person gets to handle a set of tasks in their own way. If you've done this for a few years, it can be hard to change these habits.

Of course, I'm assuming here that the husband is a semi-reasonable human being. He could have been actively trying to sabotage his present to her, but that wasn't the tone of the article.

/It was obvious that the box was in the way, that it needed to be put back. It would have been easy for him to just reach up and put it away, but instead he had stepped around it, willfully ignoring it for two days.
They have kids. I guarantee that the box wasn't the only thing that's been sitting out for two days.
2017-09-30 06:38:30 AM  
6 votes:

SpaceyCat: Weaver95: he just wasn't doing it to HER standards

That's what you picked up out of it?!  JFC.

This here is part of the problem with some men:

Which is why he was frustrated when I ungratefully passed by, not looking at his handiwork as I put away his shoes, shirt and socks that had been left on the floor.

The fact that he's cleaning the bathroom needs to be a big deal and be given praise for doing it.  Never mind that she's also cleaning and taking care of the kids.  Because she didn't stop and acknowledge what he was doing, it made him unhappy.

This is another example:

"All you have to do is ask me to put it back," he said, watching me struggle.

He took something out, didn't put it back, and was upset because he wasn't asked for help to clean up a mess that he created.

The only "standard" that I can see there is that old adage of "pick up after yourself".  It's not something that should need praise or be asked for.  If you help dirty something, help clean up.


Well,
  What you are describing is a larger problem of a couple not sharing housework.  What she is describing is a situation where she asked him to something special for her.  He wants his effort to be recognized because he wants to make her happy.

If someone is doing something specifically to make you happy on a special occasion, and you biatch at them because you feel like they are not sharing the everyday load enough or can't do the job correctly, then you are super passive-aggressive and putting the relationship at risk.
Don't be nasty and passive aggressive, have an honest conversation.  Then there is an actual goalpost for hubby and hope for the future.
2017-09-30 06:57:23 PM  
5 votes:

SergeantObvious: The article talks about "emotional labor". An important concept. But, some guys tend to be more likely to suffer in silence - so while Mrs. Writer might not see the evidence, it's quite possible that Mr. Husband Guy is carrying a *ton* of emotional weight for the family, and protecting them from his own internal struggles by carrying them quietly.


I try to make sure that I pull my weight around the house and minimize "his" chores vs "my" chores so we both cook and clean and mow the lawn and do oil changes. But the thing that makes me really uncomfortable, now that I think on it, is that he almost never asks me for help or favors. Back when bleeding the brakes was a two person job, I'd get roped into that occasionally, and sometimes there's a request for waffles if I'm on a grocery run. But I almost never hear "Do you mind giving me a hand with....?" and I'm not too shy about asking for favors from him.

I don't really have a point here, but I had that observation today and it's unsettling.
2017-09-30 03:59:16 PM  
5 votes:

Theaetetus: trialpha: Bonzo_1116: and it's not *help*. You live there too. Think about a roommate situation. You shouldn't have to badger your roommate to hang up a new roll of paper if he uses one up.

The roll of paper thing is a poor example, and not obvious. A person who lives alone has no need to replace the roll when done - they can simply do it the next time they need to use it. Replacing the roll at the end of use is solely for the benefit of other residents.

[img.fark.net image 850x551]


Anyone who has ever been a janitor knows that women have no right to complain about mens' bathroom habits.
2017-09-30 12:27:42 PM  
5 votes:

Roja Herring: I had just finished cleaning the house by myself because her family was coming over.  After that she asked me to fold the laundry while she got ready... no big deal.  I folded like I had for over a decade (I had been doing all the laundry for us both up until this point).  Screaming ensued at how I folded the towels.  When she took a breath I looked at her and said "I will never do laundry again.  This is your job from now on."


Oh, boy. And here's the other way we with the experience (frequently the ladies) self-sabotage. Because we've been doing it our way for so long, we develop too narrow a tolerance for 'right.' "If it's not how I do it, it's stupid and wrong! Why don't you see??" It is possible to be different but still right, and someone who is experienced in a different way or gaining new experience will often come up with a different solution - sometimes not as good, but sometimes perfectly fine. And even if it ISN'T as good, it doesn't warrant screaming, that is how you get someone to quit trying forever.

I'm sorry that happened to you, and that it happens so often in general.

stainedglassdoll: This is very well said. Thank you


Thanks.
2017-09-30 12:19:26 PM  
5 votes:
I honestly feel like I'm onboard with feminism in general. As someone who works in the Tech industry, I see how shiatty women are treated, even by fairly decent guys. However, I tried to get through this article and I just couldn't. If this is what women view as feminism now, then I just don't know. It's not even that the bar is getting set too high, it's that the bar has been twisted into a complicated shape that men are now supposed to conform to, or they're "part of the problem".

I follow a number of women in the IT/Programming field off and on. I say "off and on", because they'll go from posting very interesting things that I would very much support, to then shiatting on random men for any minor infraction, to even shiatting on other women for being connected to the aforementioned men. I just don't get it. When you're blasting even your allies without explanation or with really weird, convoluted arguments then you've gone off the rails.
2017-09-30 12:16:22 PM  
5 votes:

draypresct: Bumblefark: chaosangel: I am confused as to why this is called emotional labor.

It's because the author heard a sociological term she didn't understand, but wanted to use it anyway.

"Emotional labor" refers to literally that -- having to emote in certain ways as a requirement of your job. Think customer service type jobs. Gotta be "happy" regardless how you actually feel; most of what you do is selling your smile for a wage.

Honestly can't tell what the author thinks it means.

Think of the energy it takes to start a new project, introduce collaborators and keep them working amiably together, and to make sure that the deliverables are being produced on time. Calling it "emotional energy" doesn't bother me; it seemed pretty clear what she was talking about.


If that's all she meant by it, she should have just called it "work." Yes, managing a household is work.

What seems to have happened is she wanted to invoke the concept of "emotion work," and confused it with "emotional labor" because she doesn't grasp what either term refers to. The "emotion work" in managing a household basically refers to keeping everyone happy and comfortable by making sure that things run smoothly, almost "magically" though behind-the-scenes operations, and through trading one's own discomfort for the comfort of the collective.

Not having a clear concept of the thing, what she doesn't seem to grasp is that the household manager might not be the only one in the household doing emotion work. In fact, they might just doing it more gracefully than she is.

So, at the start, she just sorta casually dismisses her husband recoiling at the cost of the maid service, and offering his labor instead. Presumably, this is because he is a petty, insufficiently-empathetic mook.

....Ooooor, could be that he's the one that manages the family's finances -- a job that definitely entails a bunch of behind-the-scenes, "magical" stuff that others in the household take for granted so long as everything keeps running smoothly on that end, much like housekeeping. Could be, he very well knew that that his wife would just assume he was being "cheap," and was willing to take that hit just to spare her the difficulty and the discomfort of having to sit down to look at the books, and explain how the cost of that maid service would cut into money being allocated toward things meant to keep the family happy.

Point being, "emotion work" is a useful concept, but using it in a lazy, hazy, self-centered way isn't particularly clarifying or productive.
2017-09-30 10:49:31 AM  
5 votes:
My husband also doesn't understand. He has two jobs when he's home, walk dog and mow the lawn. He's totally on board with dog, they go to the store and he buys a beer, then they go to the wooded area about 10 mins from the house and chase squirrels for an hour. The lawn is an absolute battle though. He doesn't understand that it has to be done at regular intervals, and he'll let it go for weeks. I explain that it needs to be done when it isn't raining, but he just says it's fine. It's not farking fine! It's a mess. What bugs me is when I break down and do it he gets all mad cause he was "getting to it". It takes me over an hour to get it done cause I have a bad back, it takes him about 20 mins. I do literally everything in the house, because I am a housewife and that is my job, I don't know why it's unreasonable for him to mow the stupid lawn without me being a biatch about it.
2017-09-30 10:25:25 AM  
5 votes:
Mrs Aneki made several life decisions post marriage.

The first was that she had no interest in working a job.  So I am wholly responsible for all finances.  The second is that she is shy and hates talking to people besides her limited circle.  This means I am wholly responsible for anything involving communication outside that circle (appointments, service calls, etc.)

This means she does the bulk of managing the kids, getting them to sports practice and back, and cleaning and yard work.  She runs the home.  I help out if asked, but I assume I am not needed unless told otherwise.

She shags like a champ though, so I'll step into her duties and help out more if she "motivates me".

And frankly ladies, that's my advice, positive reinforcement.  Most men I know, including myself, want to be appreciated and shagged.  Like a pet reward me quickly when I do good and you'll get more of that behavior.
2017-09-30 09:35:02 AM  
5 votes:

AngryDragon: She asks for a gift.  He suggests it's too expensive and decides to do it himself, which I argue is sharing the "emotional labor". She gets irritated that it isn't done to her standards and when he clearly doesn't understand her frustration, because she can't communicate it to him, she writes this rant.

Lady, the problem isn't your husband, it's you.


And then she elevates her resentment as an expression of a worldwide grievance held by one half of humanity against the other half.  Yeesh.
2017-09-30 09:25:21 AM  
5 votes:
Meh. There's definitely a point to be made here, and most men do need to step up in their role as equal partners in the home maintenance and upkeep routine. But... that point takes a paragraph or two to explicate adequately.

So instead, we treated to pages of emotive overreach and blah blah blah blah blah men should be more like women blah blah. Which does nothing but preach to the choir while missing the intended target audience by miles and miles.

Guys, be more responsible for your own shiat. Ladies, clear communication is a goddamn responsibility, too.

All cool now?
2017-09-30 08:41:18 AM  
5 votes:

ol' gormsby: Weaver95: ginandbacon: If something needs doing and you can only get around to doing it if someone else tells you to, you are an immature parasite.

nothing in the world works like this.  if you cannot communicate your needs and wants effectively, then it is not your partner's fault.  that's on YOU, not them.

Jesu, what are you smoking? Do the dishes need doing? Do them. Does the vacuuming need doing? Do it. Does the {whatever} need doing? THEN FARKING DO IT!

Seriously, take a look around the house/apartment and make up your mind. Does {this thing} need doing? Well, you have a choice. You can do it, or you can ignore it and hope your partner decides to do it. If you decide to ignore it, then *you* are the problem, not your partner. Grow up. If you need to repeatedly explain your wants and needs about such basic things as dishes/vacuuming/shopping/washing clothes, then your relationship is headed for its ending - like mine did. I never knew people could just ignore household chores then act surprised at the consequences. My mistake, and I've learned a lesson.


No, if you can not communicate then you are the problem. All they know is you are being lazy about the work you usually do, for some reason.
2017-09-30 08:22:24 AM  
5 votes:
See, to have a happy and successful marriage, what you have to do as a man is search around inside yourself and gather up all the little sweet, happy, healthy, fuzzy sane emotions, and place them gently into a sturdy wicker basket in the very serene center of your heart.

Now set it on fire.
Do what you're told without being told like a good robotic Ken doll.
2017-09-30 08:18:34 AM  
5 votes:
The chief difficulty is about empowerment. He can take ownership of the things she wants, but they won't be fine her way; they'll be fine his. Because he owns it now.
2017-09-30 07:00:39 AM  
5 votes:
Are there really men calling women nags? I hesitate to be surprised because this is kind of like when I accidentally visited a MRA site back when I thought the whole thing was a joke and found out nope, the MRAs are dead serious (as serious as they are pathetic). Maybe I'm just uncreative but I can't fathom insulting an entire half of the human population on the account of one or two bad experiences. There are good men and bad men, likewise good women and bad women. I suspect there are at least as many in any quantity belonging to any gender. There's nothing specifically about women that I would ever think to complain about.

There is another The Atlantic article by one of their better writers, Olga Khazan, about how relationships may be more precarious now because we have attached too much baggage to them. Fair warning, it's an interview with the author of a book (that I won't buy). In that light it's not so much a men vs. women divide as it is a me vs. you divide - we're just asking too much of another person. I'm not sure if it's true or not, but it's a different angle on an old idea.

/should I call it The Atlantic or just Atlantic in this context...? this seems awkward somehow
2017-09-30 04:33:34 PM  
4 votes:

Dragonflew: Theaetetus: trialpha: Bonzo_1116: and it's not *help*. You live there too. Think about a roommate situation. You shouldn't have to badger your roommate to hang up a new roll of paper if he uses one up.

The roll of paper thing is a poor example, and not obvious. A person who lives alone has no need to replace the roll when done - they can simply do it the next time they need to use it. Replacing the roll at the end of use is solely for the benefit of other residents.

[img.fark.net image 850x551]

Anyone who has ever been a janitor knows that women have no right to complain about mens' bathroom habits.


Not a CSB

Women's restroom in a five-star restaurant was the nastiest place I've ever cleaned on a regular basis.  I once came in on a Saturday morning to a stall with shiat on the walls, puddle of pee in the next stall, a few bloody tampons on the floor, toilet paper all over the place like a Halloween raid, and shiat filled panties in the cabinet under the sink on top of my cleaning supplies....to top that off -- an empty garbage can....

It's bad enough there's piss and shiat and blood all over the place...but ya gotta put shiat on my cleaning supplies too???  What kind of person shiats themselves, goes to get rid of their drawers, sees a garbage can completely empty, and says "Nah, I'll open this cabinet and place it on the Windex, 409, and industrial grade disinfectant instead"?  fark I hate people some days.  That was one of them.
2017-09-30 02:28:25 PM  
4 votes:
"I was gifted a necklace for Mother's Day while my husband stole away to deep clean the bathrooms, leaving me to care for our children as the rest of the house fell into total disarray."

Wait. He disappears for a bit while she watches the children, and the entire house promptly falls apart?
2017-09-30 01:14:57 PM  
4 votes:
FTFA: What I wanted was for him to ask friends on Facebook for a recommendation, call four or five more services, do the emotional labor I would have done if the job had fallen to me.

Calling maid servies is emotional labor?  Get a farking grip.
2017-09-30 01:01:44 PM  
4 votes:
The trick is to avoid the wife when she's in Purple Minion mode; during this phase no amount of rigorous logic will be convincing, no amount of labor will be sufficient, and following her instructions to the letter will only get you berated for being a smartass.

There will be no warnings as to when Purple Minion mode will begin or end.

Evil Twin Skippy: Also, human conversation is always shorthand. There is a lot of gaps in understanding because we really don't have the time to express every idea in Dickens level detail.


We DO have the time, however, as adults, to grasp that it is insufficient to say "Can you get that out of the way?" to a spouse who's in another room and will have at best a vague idea what the 'that' might be, and that it is also immature to then biatch and moan when the spouse asks for clarification.

Especially if said spouse asking the vague question is consistently prattling on about good communication.

bingethinker: Whenever he does something, it isn't to her standards, so he's given up on trying.


SO many marriage hassles could be avoided if both spouses would grasp the idea that the other spouse's way of doing things often works, too.

Except for loading the dishwasher. Fark's sake, anything with an indentation in the bottom, like most mugs, has to go in there tilted and not straight up and down because then you get a bunch of puddles when the load's done.

TFA: My son will boast of his clean room and any other jobs he has done; my daughter will quietly put her clothes in the hamper and get dressed each day without being asked.

That's because the poor kid already knows that if he doesn't point out the completed work to mom, she'll simply assume it wasn't done.
2017-09-30 12:35:36 PM  
4 votes:
This happens all the time though with people living together, doesn't have to be male-female. The problem is simply that different people have different standards of orderliness and cleanliness. If there are three people living together, and one of them feels that messiness is a problem when it gets to "mess level 3", another when it gets to "mess level 5", and the third at "mess level 7", what will happen is that the first person does all the cleaning when the mess rises to level 3, so the other two never see a mess level that engages their cleaning mode. So of course the first person gets frustrated about it and try to make the others clean more, but it's an uphill battle, because even "mess level 4" looks perfectly fine to them.
2017-09-30 12:14:37 PM  
4 votes:

Weaver95: ol' gormsby: Weaver95: ginandbacon: If something needs doing and you can only get around to doing it if someone else tells you to, you are an immature parasite.

nothing in the world works like this.  if you cannot communicate your needs and wants effectively, then it is not your partner's fault.  that's on YOU, not them.

Jesu, what are you smoking? Do the dishes need doing? Do them. Does the vacuuming need doing? Do it. Does the {whatever} need doing? THEN FARKING DO IT!

Seriously, take a look around the house/apartment and make up your mind. Does {this thing} need doing? Well, you have a choice. You can do it, or you can ignore it and hope your partner decides to do it. If you decide to ignore it, then *you* are the problem, not your partner. Grow up. If you need to repeatedly explain your wants and needs about such basic things as dishes/vacuuming/shopping/washing clothes, then your relationship is headed for its ending - like mine did. I never knew people could just ignore household chores then act surprised at the consequences. My mistake, and I've learned a lesson.

did you bother to read the article?  looks like that's exactly what hubby here was already doing...he just wasn't doing it to HER standards...which she is apparently tired and offended to bother explaining to her husband.


You totally nailed it Weaver. The husband in this article pretty much sounds like me in terms of how I help manage our kids and house with Mrs. Doomsday.

The difference here is that my wife and I hashed out differences in how we are uniquely wired, and what we think is fair. That's how relationships work. This woman is just in a perpetual state of looking for her husband's emotional blind spots.

BTW- this practice is not just a "chick" thing. I've watched it ruin a number of otherwise great relationships for both my guy and gal pals...
2017-09-30 11:08:32 AM  
4 votes:

AntonChigger: stainedglassdoll: AntonChigger: I love it when my wife gets mad at a mess that I didn't realize I made in the kitchen, but when I offer to take responsibility and clean it up because I am literally two feet away, she goes "no I'll just do it" and then proceeds to be grouchy about having to clean it up for a while afterwards.

Maybe your wife is not grouchy about having to clean it up, but because you're so self-unaware that you don't even realize you're making messes.

/kind of the point of the article

Yeah I'm workin on it, but it would be nice to be given the opportunity to take responsibility for my mistakes and fix them so I can improve myself.

/marriage is always a work in progress


If you're truly making an effort, that's great.  But language like "I offered to clean it up and she said no" shifts the responsibility from you to her.  Maybe don't offer but just get up and clean it?

I swear I'm not trying to be a coont to you, just using your post as an example that there's a lot of subliminal and subconscious shifting of blame people (but largely men in this context) tend to do because it's difficult to change.

FWIW, my husband has a curious habit of leaving cabinet doors open after putting away the dishes.  Drives me nuts, sometimes I ask him to close them and sometimes it's easier to do it myself.  I acknowledge both that 1) he has trouble remembering to close them and that 2) it would be less work for me if he did remember.

For small things like that it's not a big deal, but scale it up to the whole household and both sides get frustrated.  The solution shouldn't be, as many in this thread have suggested, that the wife/gf just communicate more specifications and requirements; that's making more work for her.  There should be a middle ground where maybe she can try to communicate better but also men can make more of an effort.
2017-09-30 11:02:35 AM  
4 votes:

seriously.though: My husband also doesn't understand. He has two jobs when he's home, walk dog and mow the lawn. He's totally on board with dog, they go to the store and he buys a beer, then they go to the wooded area about 10 mins from the house and chase squirrels for an hour. The lawn is an absolute battle though. He doesn't understand that it has to be done at regular intervals, and he'll let it go for weeks. I explain that it needs to be done when it isn't raining, but he just says it's fine. It's not farking fine! It's a mess. What bugs me is when I break down and do it he gets all mad cause he was "getting to it". It takes me over an hour to get it done cause I have a bad back, it takes him about 20 mins. I do literally everything in the house, because I am a housewife and that is my job, I don't know why it's unreasonable for him to mow the stupid lawn without me being a biatch about it.


Not the same thing.  You're husband is just lazy.
2017-09-30 10:38:23 AM  
4 votes:
I love it when my wife gets mad at a mess that I didn't realize I made in the kitchen, but when I offer to take responsibility and clean it up because I am literally two feet away, she goes "no I'll just do it" and then proceeds to be grouchy about having to clean it up for a while afterwards.
2017-09-30 09:17:00 AM  
4 votes:

Weaver95: i've had similar conversations like the ones in this article with my girlfriend.  in our case, I work third shift AND i've been a programmer most of my life.  so asking me to do things has actually been teaching her the basics of SQL scripting without her even knowing.

"Buy a loaf of bread, and if there are eggs, buy a dozen."  and then I come home with a dozen loaves of bread.  yes, its cliche but when I get tired, my brain defaults to a base level of logical input command line arguments and manual input parameters. so she's gotten better about being specific.  I honestly don't mean to be  offensive, its just how my brain works at times. drives her nuts sometimes.  communication is kind of important and getting upset when someone does what you ask but did so in a way you didn't like, want or expect isn't a necessarily going to be a problem unless you want to MAKE it a problem.


So you suffer from literalism too.  I've got in so many arguments with bosses at work because of that it's not funny.

You need to paint and prime that then...

....wait, prime then paint, right?

Do you really have to ask that?

Yes.
2017-09-30 08:45:47 AM  
4 votes:

Smackledorfer: UDel_Kitty: ....But cooking isn't hard. ....

I don't think cooking is hard, but I've known plenty of people who do.

Do not assume people have the skills and knowledge you do. You kind of blow your argument by including cooking when saying how easy stuff is.

Every relationship has its own dynamics, and I'm not going to assume I understand someone else's from a short article. However, she clearly needs to have a long discussion with her husband.


Young gormsby 1 and 2 will not depart my oversight without knowing some basic household skills. Cooking basics and a couple of weeks' worth of recipes (25% done). How to wash dishes (already done). How to change and wash bedsheets (50% done). How to wield a vacuum cleaner (done). How to clean a toilet bowl, bathroom sink, shower stall, etc - you get the idea. Ditto checking the oil and coolant in a car. I would consider myself a failure as a parent if they didn't have at least this much.
2017-09-30 08:45:45 AM  
4 votes:

Fano: ol' gormsby: Weaver95: ginandbacon: If something needs doing and you can only get around to doing it if someone else tells you to, you are an immature parasite.

nothing in the world works like this.  if you cannot communicate your needs and wants effectively, then it is not your partner's fault.  that's on YOU, not them.

Jesu, what are you smoking? Do the dishes need doing? Do them. Does the vacuuming need doing? Do it. Does the {whatever} need doing? THEN FARKING DO IT!

Seriously, take a look around the house/apartment and make up your mind. Does {this thing} need doing? Well, you have a choice. You can do it, or you can ignore it and hope your partner decides to do it. If you decide to ignore it, then *you* are the problem, not your partner. Grow up. If you need to repeatedly explain your wants and needs about such basic things as dishes/vacuuming/shopping/washing clothes, then your relationship is headed for its ending - like mine did. I never knew people could just ignore household chores then act surprised at the consequences. My mistake, and I've learned a lesson.

No, if you can not communicate then you are the problem. All they know is you are being lazy about the work you usually do, for some reason.


Yea, ignoring it and crossing your fingers that your passive aggressiveness will be properly interpreted is setting yourself up for failure.
2017-09-30 08:19:08 AM  
4 votes:

trialpha: ol' gormsby: Jesu, what are you smoking? Do the dishes need doing? Do them. Does the vacuuming need doing? Do it. Does the {whatever} need doing? THEN FARKING DO IT!

Define "need doing". Examples:

Partner A thinks the dishes need doing after 3+ dishes are in the sink. Partner B thinks the dishes need doing after any dish is in the sink. Partner B fails to communicate this requirement to Partner A, and gets mad when it is not followed.

Same thing for vacuuming: Partner A thinks vacuuming needs doing once a week, but Partner B twice a week, etc.


The key there is need for clear communication. Just assuming your partner has  to figure it out out of the blue and being angry when they don't leads to a broken relationship.
2017-09-30 08:07:48 AM  
4 votes:

ginandbacon: Yup.

If something needs doing and you can only get around to doing it if someone else tells you to, you are an immature parasite. And yeah, it's annoying.


What if there's no agreement that it needs to be done in the first place?
2017-09-30 06:53:53 AM  
4 votes:

draypresct: That's not tired, and that's also not being a programmer. You were being passive aggressive. Own it.


no, that's me being tired.  I spend a LOT of time writing code.
2017-10-01 12:15:57 AM  
3 votes:

limboslam: "Emotional labor is the unpaid job men still don't understand."

[img.fark.net image 250x272]


Yep, fark that. My wife and I have been together long enough and though enough economic upheavals  that we've had several role reversals in the last couple decades; we've both had the chance to the be the "bread winner' and the "house manager." The grass isn't greener to either side, speaking from experience.
2017-09-30 04:54:00 PM  
3 votes:
Judging from some of the comments, some misogynists too.
2017-09-30 01:36:36 PM  
3 votes:

draypresct: ginandbacon: draypresct: I tried reading your mind, but then I got an urge to buy a nice bottle of wine to share with my spouse tonight.

Much better impulse. :) Maybe flowers and a foot massage too...

BTW, guys, never underestimate the power of flowers. Women are idiots. We will go all gooey over flowers. It's the best lesson I taught my little brother and it's served him well. Although he pulls his own weight but everybody needs an out on occasion. Because we are all assholes sometimes. I have advice for the ladies when you fark up but that's for another thread.

Yeah, it took me a while to figure that one out. My wife is generally very practical, and I took her comments about not needing to spend money on flowers at face value for a few years.


If you want the real power, have the child(ren) pick out the flowers.  That way, its an auto win no matter what color/type/arrangement results.
2017-09-30 01:00:45 PM  
3 votes:

ol' gormsby: Weaver95: ginandbacon: If something needs doing and you can only get around to doing it if someone else tells you to, you are an immature parasite.

nothing in the world works like this.  if you cannot communicate your needs and wants effectively, then it is not your partner's fault.  that's on YOU, not them.

Jesu, what are you smoking? Do the dishes need doing? Do them. Does the vacuuming need doing? Do it. Does the {whatever} need doing? THEN FARKING DO IT!

Seriously, take a look around the house/apartment and make up your mind. Does {this thing} need doing? Well, you have a choice. You can do it, or you can ignore it and hope your partner decides to do it. If you decide to ignore it, then *you* are the problem, not your partner. Grow up. If you need to repeatedly explain your wants and needs about such basic things as dishes/vacuuming/shopping/washing clothes, then your relationship is headed for its ending - like mine did. I never knew people could just ignore household chores then act surprised at the consequences. My mistake, and I've learned a lesson.


From a pure philosophical standpoint, NOTHING needs doing. If stuff did need doing, hoarders would not exist. This is justification for writing angry rants and getting people to your side. We all have acceptable levels of "things not being done", and those might not be the same levels of doneness someone else has. This when when you either use the smart gooey parts of your noggin and communicate in non-aggressive terms or you re-evaluate your life choices.
2017-09-30 12:09:42 PM  
3 votes:

casual disregard: seriously.though: casual disregard: See, now we find out why the lawn is really not mowed. This is why I'll never marry.

So because I asked him 2 weeks ago to do it, and because this has been the one source of contention for years, because I do everything else on top of school full-time, I'm a biatch and all women are the same. I just want to know why exactly he gets a free pass and I should be grateful to do the lawn for him. I pick up a lot of slack because I support him and what he does, but I physically have problems with the lawn, and it's literally the one thing that I need him to do. It's ok though, I'm the asshole for being displeased with it.

I don't think you're an asshole at all. I was partly making a bad joke which I'll freely admit was in poor taste. I do think you are experiencing cognitive dissonance, however. My original advice of "divorce him" stands as genuine. If you're in a bad situation and it's causing you stress, you have no reason to stay there.

I think the biggest problem isn't men, women, couples, dating, or all that stuff. I think people are too willing to leap blindly into marriage without accepting the consequences of having made a binding contract. Thankfully divorce has never been easier.

As far as individual need goes, my personal belief is that I fulfill my needs. I don't fulfill anyone else's, and nobody else can possibly fulfill mine. Is that so weird?


Getting divorced cause he won't mow the lawn seems incredibly disproportionate. I put up with it because everything else is alright. We aren't perfect, but if the lawn is my biggest issue, then I'm doing better than most.
2017-09-30 11:46:51 AM  
3 votes:

Roja Herring: fusillade762: What I wanted was for him to ask friends on Facebook for a recommendation, call four or five more services, do the emotional labor I would have done if the job had fallen to me.

Did you try telling him that?

This reminds me a lot of my mom.

"I want you to do X"

"Okay" *begin doing X*

"No, not like that..."

And this is why I still won't fold laundry to this day.

CSB:  I had just finished cleaning the house by myself because her family was coming over.  After that she asked me to fold the laundry while she got ready... no big deal.  I folded like I had for over a decade (I had been doing all the laundry for us both up until this point).  Screaming ensued at how I folded the towels.  When she took a breath I looked at her and said "I will never do laundry again.  This is your job from now on."

I've stuck to it for over a year now and we joke about it a lot.  I'll wash it, dry it, and take it out of the dryer but I refuse to fold it.


Ok, I was mildly making a joke before about the lady whose husband didn't mow the lawn because he went on vacation to Puerto Rico without her.

But this, this is the real reason why I'll never marry. You cleaned the whole house and folded a towel wrong (how even is that possible) and screaming ensued? On what green earth...?

Dealing with my own farkups is difficult enough. Inviting some crazy person to live with me is just too much to bear.
2017-09-30 11:39:48 AM  
3 votes:

draypresct: No, I'm pointing out that she doesn't want the house clean; she wants the house clean in precisely the way she would do it, without spending emotional energy on a discussion. It's an important difference, and it doesn't mean that his standards are lower or higher. I usually see this when people have lived by themselves for several years before moving in together, but I could be wrong.


I think you're projecting something that isn't in the article. She was fine with him choosing whichever cleaning service and getting it done. As you note, she was even fine with him doing it himself... later,so that she didn't have to watch the kids:
I had to tell him how much I appreciated the bathroom cleaning, but perhaps he could do it another time (like when our kids were in bed).

More communication seems key here. If she'd told him that she expected him to do this after the kids went to bed, he might have been able to let her know that between putting kids to bed and washing the dishes afterwards, he didn't feel he would have the time and energy to start a deep-cleaning project. They might have been able to discuss a different solution, like contacting his mother to babysit.


Your solution to her wanting not to spend emotional energy on it is that she should micromanage him and have committee meetings about solutions?
Again, I think you're missing the point. She didn't specifically want it done "after the kids went to bed". After all, her first thought was a cleaning service, and they don't exactly show up at 9 pm. No, the point was that she didn't want to deal with the kids, and him saying "my gift to you is that I'll be in the bathroom for the next hour and you have to watch the kids" is not a gift at all.
She wanted to relax, and doesn't want to think about chores. Having discussions about timing, when she expects shiat, or dealing with his mother are exactly the opposite of what she wants.

Theaetetus: Had he hired a cleaning service, then she could be relaxing in the hammock with a drink and a book while he took care of the kids and house. Y'know, the sort of thing dads reasonably expect (and get) for father's day.

It took long enough to clean the bathrooms that 'the house fell into disarray." It seems like we're talking thousands, not hundreds of dollars ($30/hr for 5-10 hours). This sort of expense can be pretty stressful, too.

First, that's still in the hundreds range. Thousands would need 30+ hours.
Second, the house was in disarray because of the kids.
Third, she handles the budget and she was the one who suggested a cleaning service, so I don't think she's stressed by the cost.
Fourth, you're still trying to argue that this is about the cleaning, and not about her faffing off to the hammock.
2017-09-30 11:38:33 AM  
3 votes:
The answer is right there in the first couple of paragraphs. Whenever he does something, it isn't to her standards, so he's given up on trying.
2017-09-30 11:33:43 AM  
3 votes:

proteus_b: You guys are all pretty obtuse if you couldn't follow the article. The lady wants the man to take part in the management of the house, not just in the physical completion of chores. He could do so by using common sense and communicating with her. Also needs to refrain from being deliberately obtuse, as many of you are.


That's actually not what she wrote. She wrote that she wanted him to give her one day where she didn't have to do "emotional labor", and she explicitly wanted him not to communicate with her.  She didn't even give him a high level overview.

I sympathize with overall problem.  It was her example that was ridiculous.  If you ladies can't see how, "I just wanted you to give me one day of what I want without me telling you actually what it was", I'd say you're the ones being obtuse.
2017-09-30 11:11:37 AM  
3 votes:

Bumblefark: chaosangel: I am confused as to why this is called emotional labor.

It's because the author heard a sociological term she didn't understand, but wanted to use it anyway.

"Emotional labor" refers to literally that -- having to emote in certain ways as a requirement of your job. Think customer service type jobs. Gotta be "happy" regardless how you actually feel; most of what you do is selling your smile for a wage.

Honestly can't tell what the author thinks it means.


Think of the energy it takes to start a new project, introduce collaborators and keep them working amiably together, and to make sure that the deliverables are being produced on time. Calling it "emotional energy" doesn't bother me; it seemed pretty clear what she was talking about.
2017-09-30 10:27:51 AM  
3 votes:

UDel_Kitty: AngryDragon: So it's completely assumed that your father has all the skill, knowledge, and energy to do all the outside work without guidance or assistance, yet when he "fails" at another task that is not in his expected list of tasks it's a problem?

First off, I gave examples of indoor tasks he does just fine on his own, so he has the skill, knowledge, and energy to to plenty of things. And to be fair, my mom does plenty of outside work, but can't handle heavier tasks such as mowing the steep backyard or climbing ladders to clean gutters.

But cooking isn't hard. Taking inventory of groceries or other household items that need replenishing isn't hard. My dad isn't bad at abstract thought.

And that's the author's point. She didn't just want a clean bathroom for Mother's Day. She wanted a service to do it so neither she nor her husband would have to do it. They could both then do other tasks or play with the kids or whatever. She wanted her husband to do some of the mental heavy lifting (analogous to keeping a mental running inventory of items needed at the store) to call and get some quotes and decide on the best one. Maybe she needed to communicate it to him better (though we don't know that she didn't spell that out to him and he dropped the ball anyway), but that's her point.

If he had said that for Father's Day he wanted a garden service to come take care of the lawn and weeding and stuff, she is saying she would have called several companies to find prices for what he wanted done, and made a selection. She expected the same thing from him.


And therein lies the problem. Some people burn a lot of mental bandwidth exhaustively researching such services. Other people realize it's a farking housekeeping/lawn/whatever service that really doesn't need that much thought put into it.

From TFA she said "get a service if it isn't too expensive" he determined it was too expensive and focused on dealing with the primary thing she wanted the service for. There are a couple of points here: 1) Such services are always priced based on the region and, barring hiring an illegal alien or a random person, they going to be very close in price. 2) As far as I know, cleaning services as a rule do not pick up your shiat for you. You are expected to do that yourself so they can come in and efficiently dust/vacuum/mop/bathrooms, then GTFO to the next client. So her being annoyed that she had clean bathrooms but still had to pick up around the house would not have been resolved anyway.

There's a legitimate conversation to be had about what each person's level of cleanliness is and the division of labor. For example I'm the type that hates doing household chores, so I leave non-food/bathroom things for long stretches. BUT once I'm comitted to cleaning I clean the fark out of it. Basically I wait until it really needs cleaning and then do it well.

My soon to be ex and I had this tension where she'd want things done more often but way more half-assed than I would like them done. What I call "sorta clean." There's nothing wrong with either approach. But we had to work out where the line was for each of us.
2017-09-30 08:04:54 AM  
3 votes:

AngryDragon: UDel_Kitty: Not shocked by the gender differences in the responders here...I've long seen this dynamic in my family. Now, my dad is very helpful and will take a lot of initiative in doing some chores. If he thinks bathroom needs cleaning, or floor needs vacuuming, he's on it. Of course he does the outside stuff without request.

But for example, god forbid he do grocery shopping without being asked. He doesn't think about, "hey, I see we're low on X, I better note that for myself, or tell M." He needs to be sent with a list, he won't just go up and gown aisles like my mom who might see something on sale or remember they need more (possibly related to the fact that my dad does none of the cooking). Even if he goes to the store, he'll inevitably be home later looking for a snack and declare, "we're out of chips!" Mom: You eat them, and you went to the store, why didn't you pick some up? Pop: They weren't on my list.

About 10 years ago, my mom badly broke her leg, right before Christmas. She was in the hospital for 2 weeks, and then confined to a wheelchair for more than a month. I still lived at home, and my oldest brother took me aside and said that I couldn't allow my dad and other brother to treat me as mom 2.0. He made it clear to them that they had to pull some weight while my mom was out of commission. They learned, a little.

I don't live with my bf, but I can see the same dynamic happening. I think we'll figure out how to balance it though.

So it's completely assumed that your father has all the skill, knowledge, and energy to do all the outside work without guidance or assistance, yet when he "fails" at another task that is not in his expected list of tasks it's a problem?


Yep. Some people (not all) have double standards. I've come to the conclusion that you can either live with it, or move on. Currently, I'm moving on.
2017-10-01 12:48:43 AM  
2 votes:

Truthman: My guess is that there are a lot of men either divorced or never lived wih a woman before on this thread.

If you live with someone, do what needs to be done, and dont be tha a**hole that waits to be told like a twelve year old.


That's a great idea - of course, it applies to both parties, doesn't it?
2017-09-30 08:36:10 PM  
2 votes:
'' tidying everyone's strewn about belongings''

This particular item has an easy solution - if they leave their stuff laying about, throw it out.
css: Judy, who used to live around the corner from us, did this and by age 7 her two kids never left anything out.
But then again Judy was *ruthless* - she even threw out good clothes, new toys, expensive video games, etc.
Didn't donate them to a thrift shop, didn't sell them on ebay - the stuff just went in the trash. Scary efficient.
2017-09-30 06:58:27 PM  
2 votes:

ginandbacon: Yup.

If something needs doing and you can only get around to doing it if someone else tells you to, you are an immature parasite. And yeah, it's annoying.


Hey, I'm not a parasite - I contribute a shiat-ton around here, both financially and otherwise. I just need directions.
2017-09-30 04:51:18 PM  
2 votes:
My guess is that there are a lot of men either divorced or never lived wih a woman before on this thread.

If you live with someone, do what needs to be done, and dont be tha a**hole that waits to be told like a twelve year old.
2017-09-30 02:24:18 PM  
2 votes:

trialpha: Bonzo_1116: and it's not *help*. You live there too. Think about a roommate situation. You shouldn't have to badger your roommate to hang up a new roll of paper if he uses one up.

The roll of paper thing is a poor example, and not obvious. A person who lives alone has no need to replace the roll when done - they can simply do it the next time they need to use it. Replacing the roll at the end of use is solely for the benefit of other residents.


It's obvious even when you live alone...because that's what lets you know if there isn't any left in the cabinet.

Before you need it the next time, and there's magically none there to replace it with.
2017-09-30 02:07:18 PM  
2 votes:

chaosangel: I am confused as to why this is called emotional labor.  The term mental labor makes more sense to me, as planning, comparison shopping, etc. are mental tasks. Emotional labor sounds like when I get together with girl friends who whine on and on about superficial stuff and I have to try to listen and be supportive without going into problem solving mode.

But then again, I've never been a "normal" woman and have always related better to men, so perhaps this is a new term that I've missed by limiting my interaction with girlie girls.

As for this article, it seems that this woman should be well aware that her hubby is incapable of providing her requested gift.  We all have our limits and short comings. If you can't accept that and learn to work around them, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

My hubby is a super genius code monkey. I've long ago accepted that his dirty underwear in the middle of the bedroom floor and the dishes and beer bottles all over the house are just invisible and inconsequential to him. He does what he does well, mows the lawn, takes out the garbage and that's all I'm ever going to get.


Super genius code monkey is not an excuse. In my house, we're both super genius code monkeys. This shiat still needs to get done, and I'm tired of hearing programmers (and it's always farking programmers who do this, and god help me I don't know why) make excuses for themselves instead of actually pulling their weight at home.

I'm also tired of programmers deciding that every problem at their job can be solved with a few more hours of work, conveniently leaving them too tired to do anything productive by the time they get home. Also the "I can't take a week of PTO nine months from now, I have too much work to do" refrain. But those are separate rants.
2017-09-30 01:42:30 PM  
2 votes:

doglover: If you don't ask for help, you don't get help.

End. Of. Story.

/offer void when code blue


Some obvious shiat shouldn't need asking about.

and it's not *help*.  You live there too.  Think about a roommate situation.  You shouldn't have to badger your roommate to hang up a new roll of paper if he uses one up.
2017-09-30 12:41:46 PM  
2 votes:

UDel_Kitty: Pretty sure she expressly says in the article that she manages the budget, which means she's well aware of what they can afford. She asked him to get a few quotes and they'd pick a service that fit their means.


A parenthetical comment might not be the full picture.  My wife handles our budget; I'm the one that handles the finances -- i.e., the net money-flow, the long-term planning, the savings and investments, etc. There's lot of stuff that looks affordable from one point of view, but not from the other. Conflicts like that happen pretty regularly for us. What we can afford is rarely the same as what we should spend.

But in any case, it was just a speculative example; my point is that there very well could have been a lot of behind-the-scenes, emotion work stuff going on with the guy's resistance to the cost that she's blind to simply because she's not thinking through her concepts in a clear, disinterested way.
2017-09-30 12:30:37 PM  
2 votes:

Doomsday_SC: Weaver95: ol' gormsby: Weaver95: ginandbacon: If something needs doing and you can only get around to doing it if someone else tells you to, you are an immature parasite.

nothing in the world works like this.  if you cannot communicate your needs and wants effectively, then it is not your partner's fault.  that's on YOU, not them.

Jesu, what are you smoking? Do the dishes need doing? Do them. Does the vacuuming need doing? Do it. Does the {whatever} need doing? THEN FARKING DO IT!

Seriously, take a look around the house/apartment and make up your mind. Does {this thing} need doing? Well, you have a choice. You can do it, or you can ignore it and hope your partner decides to do it. If you decide to ignore it, then *you* are the problem, not your partner. Grow up. If you need to repeatedly explain your wants and needs about such basic things as dishes/vacuuming/shopping/washing clothes, then your relationship is headed for its ending - like mine did. I never knew people could just ignore household chores then act surprised at the consequences. My mistake, and I've learned a lesson.

did you bother to read the article?  looks like that's exactly what hubby here was already doing...he just wasn't doing it to HER standards...which she is apparently tired and offended to bother explaining to her husband.

You totally nailed it Weaver. The husband in this article pretty much sounds like me in terms of how I help manage our kids and house with Mrs. Doomsday.

The difference here is that my wife and I hashed out differences in how we are uniquely wired, and what we think is fair. That's how relationships work. This woman is just in a perpetual state of looking for her husband's emotional blind spots.

BTW- this practice is not just a "chick" thing. I've watched it ruin a number of otherwise great relationships for both my guy and gal pals...


This is completely accurate.  It isn't just women who do this -- it's just a certain personality type, at least in my experience.  I know plenty of men who destroyed their relationships the exact same way. 

Relationships that work are the ones in which people communicate, can hash out their differences, and be fair to each other.  And to push it just a little farther: to know where a partner is weak, or strong, and to accept both.  In my best relationship, we both knew what the other was good at, what the other cared about and didn't care about, and figured out how to get all those things done properly.

Communicating effectively when you like someone and don't want to hurt them or upset them may be hard, but it's way better than the end result of not doing so.
2017-09-30 12:21:29 PM  
2 votes:
HammerHeadSnark:
OMG, that was an angry, angry woman. Funny thing is, we'd dated for several years (6?) and got along fine. She rented her place and I owned mine. Then she moved into my place and moved out six months later in a screaming rage fit.

That was 20 years ago. I still have the drapes and the fireplace screen. And I'm happy! Yay!

Wow, that was cathartic. Thanks internet . . . you're the best.


I had this exact experience.  Are there are lot of shiatty people who don't help out?  Sure.  I'd bet it's a lot of them.  Are there people, though, who are incapable of seeing anything but what they want to see?  Yes.  What some people fail to understand, or like to elide in their articles, is sometimes that "we're just fed up" is actually code for, "we're just incapable of communicating" or "we're just abusive."   When you're upset because I do almost 80% of everything that needs to be done, including some back-breaking repairs, etc., and your method of dealing with something not to your liking is to go from 0 to rage, to the point that people (bonus points when you meet the exes and they all had the same experience!) are almost afraid to come home, well....

My favorite one was after painting the garage, repairing a door-frame, fixing her car, mopping the floors, etc., the moment she got home I dealt with a volcanic explosion over the fact a towel was not hung up properly.  She told me I was a worthless piece of shiat who would never go anywhere in life (I was supporting her at the time) and a failure as a human and I should kill myself.   

She also later wrote a blog post about me, about how I "made her feel like a nag" and she "was just fed up", leaving out any other side of the story.  I figured this was going to be it again after seeing the headline (it wasn't, fortunately).  Only reason I'm bothering to comment here. 

/person was previously great to date before moving in together
2017-09-30 11:56:19 AM  
2 votes:

casual disregard: See, now we find out why the lawn is really not mowed. This is why I'll never marry.


So because I asked him 2 weeks ago to do it, and because this has been the one source of contention for years, because I do everything else on top of school full-time, I'm a biatch and all women are the same. I just want to know why exactly he gets a free pass and I should be grateful to do the lawn for him. I pick up a lot of slack because I support him and what he does, but I physically have problems with the lawn, and it's literally the one thing that I need him to do. It's ok though, I'm the asshole for being displeased with it.
2017-09-30 11:41:23 AM  
2 votes:

aerojockey: proteus_b: You guys are all pretty obtuse if you couldn't follow the article. The lady wants the man to take part in the management of the house, not just in the physical completion of chores. He could do so by using common sense and communicating with her. Also needs to refrain from being deliberately obtuse, as many of you are.

That's actually not what she wrote. She wrote that she wanted him to give her one day where she didn't have to do "emotional labor", and she explicitly wanted him not to communicate with her.  She didn't even give him a high level overview.

I sympathize with overall problem.  It was her example that was ridiculous.  If you ladies can't see how, "I just wanted you to give me one day of what I want without me telling you actually what it was", I'd say you're the ones being obtuse.


She explicitly told him what she wanted, a professional cleaning service to come in and take care of shiat.

Not only did he not give her that, he made her life worse.
2017-09-30 11:39:12 AM  
2 votes:

fusillade762: What I wanted was for him to ask friends on Facebook for a recommendation, call four or five more services, do the emotional labor I would have done if the job had fallen to me.

Did you try telling him that?

This reminds me a lot of my mom.

"I want you to do X"

"Okay" *begin doing X*

"No, not like that..."


And this is why I still won't fold laundry to this day.

CSB:  I had just finished cleaning the house by myself because her family was coming over.  After that she asked me to fold the laundry while she got ready... no big deal.  I folded like I had for over a decade (I had been doing all the laundry for us both up until this point).  Screaming ensued at how I folded the towels.  When she took a breath I looked at her and said "I will never do laundry again.  This is your job from now on."

I've stuck to it for over a year now and we joke about it a lot.  I'll wash it, dry it, and take it out of the dryer but I refuse to fold it.
2017-09-30 09:59:45 AM  
2 votes:

Adss2009: Every team I've been on has had a team lead who is responsible for the overall success of the team and does the mental work of synthesizing, reviewing, planning the overall work of the team. Good leaders encourage and develop the initiative of the team. But (usually) that leader is recognized as such, compensated better (either pay or benefits such as deference to guidance or whatever).
In a relationship and managing a household, the author argues, that the default is that the woman is the de facto leader responsible for doing all of the team leader work while both the man and woman are responsible for executing the required tasks. I mean, as said earlier in the thread, cooking, cleaning, etc. are not innate tasks that people are just "good" at. But, as I've often seen, women are responsible for them because they're women, not because they're any good at them. So, even from a young age, they're trained to do them and be responsible for them in a way that men aren't.

I mean, theres a whole social tripe about the dirty bachelor. Cleaning up and maintaining a household is accepted as just something guys aren't good at and they need a woman to straighten them out and get it worked out for them.

Anyways, if a couple wants to have that division of mental responsibilities, cool, go for it. But, in my opinion, men shouldn't be going into relationships expecting their partner to be responsible for doing the leadership tasks and then act dumb or offended and say their partner should have just communicated better about expectations.


There are also "entire social tripes" about blacks being stupid and lazy, Jews bring greedy, Muslims exploding all over the place, gays being incapable of monogamy, and hoo boy, even quite a few about women and their various alleged inferiorities. I do hope you aren't saying that the existence of a stereotype is evidence of something.

I've lived with multiple women over the years, both girlfriends and roommates, and my experience is that they are no cleaner or neater than the guys I've lived with.

My favorite line ever was, "I know you do the dishes and vacuum more than I do, but I hate how messy this place is, we need to clean more".

Me, "sounds good, but how about we start with you cleaning as much as I do, and see if that isn't a satisfactory level"

Or when my gf lost her job and didn't get one for over a year and couldn't figure out why I felt she should do more housework while I worked full time. Like seriously? Is it so wrong for me to come home from a ten hour+ shift and think you could have done two hours of mild housekeeping?

I hate unequal relationships for that reason. I don't know if I'll ever date someone without an active career again. Resentment breeds so quickly.

/Flushed tampons are fun to clean out of pipes.
2017-09-30 09:56:46 AM  
2 votes:

Fano: Adss2009: Every team I've been on has had a team lead who is responsible for the overall success of the team and does the mental work of synthesizing, reviewing, planning the overall work of the team. Good leaders encourage and develop the initiative of the team. But (usually) that leader is recognized as such, compensated better (either pay or benefits such as deference to guidance or whatever).
In a relationship and managing a household, the author argues, that the default is that the woman is the de facto leader responsible for doing all of the team leader work while both the man and woman are responsible for executing the required tasks. I mean, as said earlier in the thread, cooking, cleaning, etc. are not innate tasks that people are just "good" at. But, as I've often seen, women are responsible for them because they're women, not because they're any good at them. So, even from a young age, they're trained to do them and be responsible for them in a way that men aren't.

I mean, theres a whole social tripe about the dirty bachelor. Cleaning up and maintaining a household is accepted as just something guys aren't good at and they need a woman to straighten them out and get it worked out for them.

Anyways, if a couple wants to have that division of mental responsibilities, cool, go for it. But, in my opinion, men shouldn't be going into relationships expecting their partner to be responsible for doing the leadership tasks and then act dumb or offended and say their partner should have just communicated better about expectations.

Tldr; it's guys fault for because reasons


Or maybe, just maybe, the woman's not just an "insufferable nag who should just communicate better"
I mean, the guys here are trying so hard! Why aren't they being patted on the back for how hard they try! Cooking is HARD and they're just not good at it, but at least they're trying!
2017-09-30 09:55:49 AM  
2 votes:
Emotional labor? Well, I like to think it could always be worse.

proof.nationalgeographic.com
2017-09-30 09:46:28 AM  
2 votes:

GrendelMk1: draypresct: Weaver95: draypresct: Weaver95: draypresct: That's not tired, and that's also not being a programmer. You were being passive aggressive. Own it.

no, that's me being tired.  I spend a LOT of time writing code.

So do I. And if I saw outputs that far out of any reasonable range as "a dozen loaves of bread", then I'd try to fix my code, not blame the way the specifications were phrased (which were perfectly fine in your example).

abend U4096, STEP01

(Eyeroll)
Your specs are always written in English. If you need someone to write the program for you, you're not a programmer, you're a surly user interface.

I'm a maintenance tech. We have PLCs at work. People write code for them, of course. To my specifications. This has occasioned a long conversation with a programmer who thought I wasn't smart enough to block out functions, but that's a different discussion :P

I'd take both of you dumbasses out back of the distillation units and make you listen to the vacuum pumps without hearing protection until you quit trying to "1-up" each other.

Weaver, that joke is so old my now-deceased father told it. Fark off with it.

Draypresct, you're white-knighting for a cnut. Stop it.

And if either of you arseholes is going to come back at me, I'm not going to be here. I'm going to bed, and fark both of you.


Calling Weaver out on his BS isn't white-knighting. It's more 'welcome to Fark'.

/And yes, if you tried a similar load of BS, I'd call you out on it, too. I'm old and get irritable about that kind of thing.
2017-09-30 09:28:45 AM  
2 votes:

Adss2009: Every team I've been on has had a team lead who is responsible for the overall success of the team and does the mental work of synthesizing, reviewing, planning the overall work of the team. Good leaders encourage and develop the initiative of the team. But (usually) that leader is recognized as such, compensated better (either pay or benefits such as deference to guidance or whatever).
In a relationship and managing a household, the author argues, that the default is that the woman is the de facto leader responsible for doing all of the team leader work while both the man and woman are responsible for executing the required tasks. I mean, as said earlier in the thread, cooking, cleaning, etc. are not innate tasks that people are just "good" at. But, as I've often seen, women are responsible for them because they're women, not because they're any good at them. So, even from a young age, they're trained to do them and be responsible for them in a way that men aren't.

I mean, theres a whole social tripe about the dirty bachelor. Cleaning up and maintaining a household is accepted as just something guys aren't good at and they need a woman to straighten them out and get it worked out for them.

Anyways, if a couple wants to have that division of mental responsibilities, cool, go for it. But, in my opinion, men shouldn't be going into relationships expecting their partner to be responsible for doing the leadership tasks and then act dumb or offended and say their partner should have just communicated better about expectations.


Tldr; it's guys fault for because reasons
2017-09-30 09:25:49 AM  
2 votes:
Every team I've been on has had a team lead who is responsible for the overall success of the team and does the mental work of synthesizing, reviewing, planning the overall work of the team. Good leaders encourage and develop the initiative of the team. But (usually) that leader is recognized as such, compensated better (either pay or benefits such as deference to guidance or whatever).
In a relationship and managing a household, the author argues, that the default is that the woman is the de facto leader responsible for doing all of the team leader work while both the man and woman are responsible for executing the required tasks. I mean, as said earlier in the thread, cooking, cleaning, etc. are not innate tasks that people are just "good" at. But, as I've often seen, women are responsible for them because they're women, not because they're any good at them. So, even from a young age, they're trained to do them and be responsible for them in a way that men aren't.

I mean, theres a whole social tripe about the dirty bachelor. Cleaning up and maintaining a household is accepted as just something guys aren't good at and they need a woman to straighten them out and get it worked out for them.

Anyways, if a couple wants to have that division of mental responsibilities, cool, go for it. But, in my opinion, men shouldn't be going into relationships expecting their partner to be responsible for doing the leadership tasks and then act dumb or offended and say their partner should have just communicated better about expectations.
2017-09-30 08:25:03 AM  
2 votes:

forgotmydamnusername: ginandbacon: Yup.

If something needs doing and you can only get around to doing it if someone else tells you to, you are an immature parasite. And yeah, it's annoying.

What if there's no agreement that it needs to be done in the first place?


Just go clean your farking room, Kevin.
2017-10-01 03:03:14 PM  
1 vote:

DoBeDoBeLurk: Boudyro: From TFA she said "get a service if it isn't too expensive" he determined it was too expensive and focused on dealing with the primary thing she wanted the service for. There are a couple of points here: 1) Such services are always priced based on the region and, barring hiring an illegal alien or a random person, they going to be very close in price. 2) As far as I know, cleaning services as a rule do not pick up your shiat for you. You are expected to do that yourself so they can come in and efficiently dust/vacuum/mop/bathrooms, then GTFO to the next client. So her being annoyed that she had clean bathrooms but still had to pick up around the house would not have been resolved anyway.

There is a huge disparity in what cleaning services cost and what they will do (including 'pick up your shiat') I know this because I did the 'emotional labor' and found a cleaning service for an unwell neighbor who couldn't clean his own home. There are some who 'don't do windows,' and there are some who will dust all of your DVD cases with a Q-tip. He required one that would clean cat boxes. (They told me they would over the phone, they arrived for an assessment and told him they wouldn't, made the legally blind guy who can barely walk do it himself. Pissed me off, but there was nothing I could do about it by then.) If you're going to hire someone to do a thing, you don't quit after checking ONE.

But, here's the thing, we women do this to ourselves. At least, I do, and it sounds like the woman in the article does, too. Yes, you are taught to take on these sorts of tasks quietly and just get them done. When you do that, your partner never learns how to do these tasks and, half the time, never realizes they need doing. Inventorying the food and keeping a running tally of what you need to get at the store (and being able to adjust that for what's on sale, and meal-planning), that is HARD. Vetting a cleaning service is HARD. Keeping the laundry sorted and knowing who's running low on what clothing item and what load needs doing - HARD. It has to be learned. If the man (or clueless, non-gendered person) in your life did not pick up those skills prior to the relationship, they need time within the relationship to learn them. And, if you're the one who knows how, you have to show them... and be patient with them when they screw it up because they WILL screw it up, or at least not perform it to your standards.

I am not that patient. My husband has basically ceded the food and the kitchen to me, because I know how to manage it and he doesn't and I get irritated when he doesn't and I figure I'll probably outlive him or we'll go out together in some kind of glorious fireball. I asked him to make Jello, once. He made the Jello wrong. He produced Jello, but he used many more dishes than he needed. (All you need is the medium-sized measuring cup and a whisk, and two goblets to pour the Jello into. You make it with ice so it sets faster and you don't have to boil the water on the stove, it just needs to be hot enough to dissolve the sugar. Two minutes in the microwave will do it.) But I caught myself, while complaining about this, because, how the hell was he supposed to know? When was the last time he made Jello? Only the thing with the ice is on the package, and it's segregated in its own little box away from the directions. And of course I didn't think to tell him about it because I've made it so many times it seems obvious. And that is just a teeny-tiny thing. 'Fastest Jello with the fewest dishes that takes up the least space in the fridge.' This woman's husband vetted the cleaning companies wrong, but that is WAY more complicated. She either has to be willing to teach him (and he has to be willing to learn), or she has to be willing to throw him into the water and let him screw up until he figures it out on his own - while still being supportive of the effort. That is also really hard. It is so much easier to just do it, and then we wonder how our partners can be so stupid.

And your partner knows you think he is being stupid, and you are impatient with him. That's why they cleave so strongly to shopping lists and precise instructions and being told what to do. "Well, when I get it wrong, you get pissed off, so just tell me exactly what you want and I'll do that." That's easier, but it results in the man (or clueless, non-gendered person) going to the store and coming home without the chips he wanted because they weren't on the list. And then you get irritated with him for that.

Yeah, it would be great if everyone picked up these things as they matured, but for whatever reasons (nature/nurture) some don't. When you're in a relationship with someone who doesn't know how laundry works, you can either teach them, let them figure it out themselves, or do it forever. The option that results in the 'emotional labor' and the nagging and the clueless spouse is the one that results in fewer ruined clothes (or dishes, or botched attempts to solve the 'clean bathroom' problem), so that's the one we go with. I'm not saying I'm better than this, I'm not, but it's a systemic problem rather than one partner or the other, and it's beyond simple communication. There's an experience gap, and those of us who have the experience help perpetuate it.


You got it, yo.
2017-10-01 11:46:30 AM  
1 vote:

seriously.though: My husband also doesn't understand. He has two jobs when he's home, walk dog and mow the lawn. He's totally on board with dog, they go to the store and he buys a beer, then they go to the wooded area about 10 mins from the house and chase squirrels for an hour. The lawn is an absolute battle though. He doesn't understand that it has to be done at regular intervals, and he'll let it go for weeks. I explain that it needs to be done when it isn't raining, but he just says it's fine. It's not farking fine! It's a mess. What bugs me is when I break down and do it he gets all mad cause he was "getting to it". It takes me over an hour to get it done cause I have a bad back, it takes him about 20 mins. I do literally everything in the house, because I am a housewife and that is my job, I don't know why it's unreasonable for him to mow the stupid lawn without me being a biatch about it.


I do the same thing, but I'm trying to be more proactive.  My wife and I clash over stuff like that because she was brought up in a very clean household and I was not.
2017-10-01 10:05:45 AM  
1 vote:

bingo the psych-o: The only problem I have with this is that men, by far, biatch and moan a lot more than women do.


I used to do this grunt/whine thing whenever my wife asked me to do something, and I never realized I was doing it.  I had to make a conscious effort not to do it.  It made her feel like I was trying to make her feel guilty for asking for some help.  It was really stupid and I didn't even realize I was doing it.
2017-09-30 11:16:48 PM  
1 vote:

seriously.though: Fano: Truthman: My guess is that there are a lot of men either divorced or never lived wih a woman before on this thread.

If you live with someone, do what needs to be done, and dont be tha a**hole that waits to be told like a twelve year old.

Spoken like a true harridan. Guess you've never heard "who asked you to...."

It's a basic level of respect. When you share space with another person, then respect them enough to pick up after yourself, or at a minimum not make a bigger mess.


And who decides what degree of neatness is required? Because I dunno if you know this or not.... but people draw that line in different places. Who's the jerk? The one harping about a towel on the floor, or the one who forgot to toss it in the hamper?
2017-09-30 10:57:24 PM  
1 vote:

seriously.though: Fano: Truthman: My guess is that there are a lot of men either divorced or never lived wih a woman before on this thread.

If you live with someone, do what needs to be done, and dont be tha a**hole that waits to be told like a twelve year old.

Spoken like a true harridan. Guess you've never heard "who asked you to...."

It's a basic level of respect. When you share space with another person, then respect them enough to pick up after yourself, or at a minimum not make a bigger mess.


Way to move the goalposts.
2017-09-30 10:48:09 PM  
1 vote:

Truthman: My guess is that there are a lot of men either divorced or never lived wih a woman before on this thread.

If you live with someone, do what needs to be done, and dont be tha a**hole that waits to be told like a twelve year old.


Spoken like a true harridan. Guess you've never heard "who asked you to...."
2017-09-30 08:16:52 PM  
1 vote:
What, seriously?

I'm single; been single my whole adult life.

If I want shyt to get done, I have to do all of it myself.This lady ought to do similarly and be happy with whatever gift she happens to be given.

Cry harder.
2017-09-30 07:00:56 PM  
1 vote:

the_vicious_fez: SergeantObvious: The article talks about "emotional labor". An important concept. But, some guys tend to be more likely to suffer in silence - so while Mrs. Writer might not see the evidence, it's quite possible that Mr. Husband Guy is carrying a *ton* of emotional weight for the family, and protecting them from his own internal struggles by carrying them quietly.

I try to make sure that I pull my weight around the house and minimize "his" chores vs "my" chores so we both cook and clean and mow the lawn and do oil changes. But the thing that makes me really uncomfortable, now that I think on it, is that he almost never asks me for help or favors. Back when bleeding the brakes was a two person job, I'd get roped into that occasionally, and sometimes there's a request for waffles if I'm on a grocery run. But I almost never hear "Do you mind giving me a hand with....?" and I'm not too shy about asking for favors from him.

I don't really have a point here, but I had that observation today and it's unsettling.


Why unsettling? You're different people. You roll differetly. That's ok.
2017-09-30 04:51:16 PM  
1 vote:

hashtag.acronym: Women's restroom in a five-star restaurant was the nastiest place I've ever cleaned on a regular basis.  I once came in on a Saturday morning to a stall with shiat on the walls, puddle of pee in the next stall, a few bloody tampons on the floor


Ever found one stuck to the wall? Three for me. The men's washrooms were spotless by comparison and this was on a military base where the population was at least 80% male.

So women, you can fark right off with your complaining about me leaving the seat up.
2017-09-30 03:57:37 PM  
1 vote:
How men and women communicate.

It's Not About The Nail
Youtube -4EDhdAHrOg
2017-09-30 02:23:50 PM  
1 vote:

trialpha: Bonzo_1116: and it's not *help*. You live there too. Think about a roommate situation. You shouldn't have to badger your roommate to hang up a new roll of paper if he uses one up.

The roll of paper thing is a poor example, and not obvious. A person who lives alone has no need to replace the roll when done - they can simply do it the next time they need to use it. Replacing the roll at the end of use is solely for the benefit of other residents.


img.fark.net
2017-09-30 02:01:04 PM  
1 vote:

Bonzo_1116: and it's not *help*. You live there too. Think about a roommate situation. You shouldn't have to badger your roommate to hang up a new roll of paper if he uses one up.


The roll of paper thing is a poor example, and not obvious. A person who lives alone has no need to replace the roll when done - they can simply do it the next time they need to use it. Replacing the roll at the end of use is solely for the benefit of other residents.
2017-09-30 01:27:30 PM  
1 vote:

Theaetetus: draypresct: -he was doing the thing I had most wanted-giving me sparkling bathrooms without having to do it myself. Which is why he was frustrated when I ungratefully passed by, not looking at his handiwork
Good managers give feedback on the result; it seems like she didn't care about the result, only the process.

You clipped this of its context in order to intentionally distort the article. Allow me to restore it:
In his mind, he was doing the thing I had most wanted-giving me sparkling bathrooms without having to do it myself. Which is why he was frustrated when I ungratefully passed by, not looking at his handiwork as I put away his shoes, shirt and socks that had been left on the floor. I stumbled over the box of gift wrap... I had to get a kitchen chair and drag it into our closet so I could reach the shelf where it belonged.

That, in fact, wasn't the thing she had most wanted. It didn't achieve the result she wanted, so it's not that she didn't care about the result, but rather, her desired result - being able to relax - was unfulfilled.

You're misrepresenting the article in the same way that Weaver, AeroJockey, and AngryDragon were. It's not about some level of cleanliness she wants or whether it's "up to her standards", but rather that she would like the household tasks done without having to spend any thought or effort on it.The previous sentence, that you also clipped out, highlights this:
I was gifted a necklace for Mother's Day while my husband stole away to deep clean the bathrooms, leaving me to care for our children as the rest of the house fell into total disarray.

Had he hired a cleaning service, then she could be relaxing in the hammock with a drink and a book while he took care of the kids and house. Y'know, the sort of thing dads reasonably expect (and get) for father's day.

/that said, he seems clueless and she seems to be a terrible communicator, though hopefully, he reads this article


I agree with most of what you said, and will admit I'm reasonably new at the father gig. But celebrating father's day by avoiding fatherhood seems way off to me. It suits me to immerse myself in the joyof being a father. So anything that frees me to do that is appreciated. No work, no chores that take more than a minute or two, etc. But different strokes...
2017-09-30 01:25:51 PM  
1 vote:

mesmer242: I used to say I didn't care how clothes got folded so long as they weren't on the floor, but I changed my mind about that when one of my kids took the entire stack of freshly laundered underwear and threw them back in their hamper, and then complained a few days later that they were out of underwear. That is officially folding clothes wrong.


No no, that is a child offering to help by doing... oh several loads of laundry, give or take. That's what we told our kids and funny enough, clean clothes mostly stopped being tossed on the floor.

As to the article I think that couple needs to communicate way more. It doesn't really sound like either of them is seriously insane, lazy or awful. They need to explain what they want, and if there is a specific way they want that accomplished, explain that too.

When you're asking someone to do something they have no idea how to do, you do have to tell them how to do it. Awhile back I asked Mrs. Jorm to phone around and get quotes for replacing the siding on our house. I knew she had the basic idea of "Call many places, set up appointments for quotes." but she got hung up on social anxiety. A bit of encouragement and "They want us to pay them thousands and thousands of dollars, they pretty much have to be nice." and the calls were done, quotes were got. It hadn't occurred to me that someone who wanted you to hire them for bunch of money would be intimidating or nasty.

/The siding is pretty sweet though. Hardy board so the next time the crazy neighbour burns her house down we won't be in any danger
2017-09-30 12:54:58 PM  
1 vote:

Weaver95: how dare men NOT foresee the future and read women's minds!

c'mon.


This. I'M NOT A DAMNED MIND READER. TELL ME, DON'T MAKE ME GUESS.
2017-09-30 12:22:16 PM  
1 vote:

Bumblefark: draypresct: Bumblefark: chaosangel: I am confused as to why this is called emotional labor.

It's because the author heard a sociological term she didn't understand, but wanted to use it anyway.

"Emotional labor" refers to literally that -- having to emote in certain ways as a requirement of your job. Think customer service type jobs. Gotta be "happy" regardless how you actually feel; most of what you do is selling your smile for a wage.

Honestly can't tell what the author thinks it means.

Think of the energy it takes to start a new project, introduce collaborators and keep them working amiably together, and to make sure that the deliverables are being produced on time. Calling it "emotional energy" doesn't bother me; it seemed pretty clear what she was talking about.

If that's all she meant by it, she should have just called it "work." Yes, managing a household is work.

What seems to have happened is she wanted to invoke the concept of "emotion work," and confused it with "emotional labor" because she doesn't grasp what either term refers to. The "emotion work" in managing a household basically refers to keeping everyone happy and comfortable by making sure that things run smoothly, almost "magically" though behind-the-scenes operations, and through trading one's own discomfort for the comfort of the collective.

Not having a clear concept of the thing, what she doesn't seem to grasp is that the household manager might not be the only one in the household doing emotion work. In fact, they might just doing it more gracefully than she is.

So, at the start, she just sorta casually dismisses her husband recoiling at the cost of the maid service, and offering his labor instead. Presumably, this is because he is a petty, insufficiently-empathetic mook.

....Ooooor, could be that he's the one that manages the family's finances -- a job that definitely entails a bunch of behind-the-scenes, "magical" stuff that others in the household take for granted so long as everything keeps running smoothly on that end, much like housekeeping. Could be, he very well knew that that his wife would just assume he was being "cheap," and was willing to take that hit just to spare her the difficulty and the discomfort of having to sit down to look at the books, and explain how the cost of that maid service would cut into money being allocated toward things meant to keep the family happy.

Point being, "emotion work" is a useful concept, but using it in a lazy, hazy, self-centered way isn't particularly clarifying or productive.


Pretty sure she expressly says in the article that she manages the budget, which means she's well aware of what they can afford. She asked him to get a few quotes and they'd pick a service that fit their means.
2017-09-30 12:21:19 PM  
1 vote:

Theaetetus: seriously.though: casual disregard: See, now we find out why the lawn is really not mowed. This is why I'll never marry.

So because I asked him 2 weeks ago to do it, and because this has been the one source of contention for years, because I do everything else on top of school full-time, I'm a biatch and all women are the same. I just want to know why exactly he gets a free pass and I should be grateful to do the lawn for him. I pick up a lot of slack because I support him and what he does, but I physically have problems with the lawn, and it's literally the one thing that I need him to do. It's ok though, I'm the asshole for being displeased with it.

No, no, he meant "this is why I'll never marry" to mean "this attitude of mine is why no one would ever agree to marry me and I'll die alone."


I do love chatting with strangers on the webzones. What fun...I think I'll tie a noose next. That would be more productive.

I don't have a high opinion of myself so I avoid disappointing other people.
2017-09-30 12:16:59 PM  
1 vote:

AntonChigger: stainedglassdoll: AntonChigger: I love it when my wife gets mad at a mess that I didn't realize I made in the kitchen, but when I offer to take responsibility and clean it up because I am literally two feet away, she goes "no I'll just do it" and then proceeds to be grouchy about having to clean it up for a while afterwards.

Maybe your wife is not grouchy about having to clean it up, but because you're so self-unaware that you don't even realize you're making messes.

/kind of the point of the article

Yeah I'm workin on it, but it would be nice to be given the opportunity to take responsibility for my mistakes and fix them so I can improve myself.

/marriage is always a work in progress


It sounds like you're close, but instead of offering to clean it up, you just start cleaning it up and apologize for not recognizing the need yourself. If she tries to push you out of the work, don't let her. Don't give on that and pretend you think she wants to do it herself. She doesn't, and shouldn't, and while she may be trying to be supporting and forgiving, it's so small and simple to take care of it in a way that leaves neither of you with even a tiny grudge. And then you really do need to give the chore enough attention in the future so that you do often take care of it on your own (before she even knows there was, briefly, a mess).
2017-09-30 12:16:13 PM  
1 vote:

seriously.though: casual disregard: See, now we find out why the lawn is really not mowed. This is why I'll never marry.

So because I asked him 2 weeks ago to do it, and because this has been the one source of contention for years, because I do everything else on top of school full-time, I'm a biatch and all women are the same. I just want to know why exactly he gets a free pass and I should be grateful to do the lawn for him. I pick up a lot of slack because I support him and what he does, but I physically have problems with the lawn, and it's literally the one thing that I need him to do. It's ok though, I'm the asshole for being displeased with it.


No, no, he meant "this is why I'll never marry" to mean "this attitude of mine is why no one would ever agree to marry me and I'll die alone."
2017-09-30 12:03:56 PM  
1 vote:
I used to say I didn't care how clothes got folded so long as they weren't on the floor, but I changed my mind about that when one of my kids took the entire stack of freshly laundered underwear and threw them back in their hamper, and then complained a few days later that they were out of underwear. That is officially folding clothes wrong.
2017-09-30 11:48:10 AM  
1 vote:

Theaetetus: seriously.though: AngryDragon: seriously.though: My husband also doesn't understand. He has two jobs when he's home, walk dog and mow the lawn. He's totally on board with dog, they go to the store and he buys a beer, then they go to the wooded area about 10 mins from the house and chase squirrels for an hour. The lawn is an absolute battle though. He doesn't understand that it has to be done at regular intervals, and he'll let it go for weeks. I explain that it needs to be done when it isn't raining, but he just says it's fine. It's not farking fine! It's a mess. What bugs me is when I break down and do it he gets all mad cause he was "getting to it". It takes me over an hour to get it done cause I have a bad back, it takes him about 20 mins. I do literally everything in the house, because I am a housewife and that is my job, I don't know why it's unreasonable for him to mow the stupid lawn without me being a biatch about it.

Not the same thing.  You're husband is just lazy.

Lazy, procrastinator, butthead... He's not all bad, but this bugs the hell out of me. Dog needs a clean yard, he loves dog, but doesn't see that he shouldn't be wandering around in his own filth.

A daily beer is about $30/week, given the markup most places have when you buy 'em one at a time. A yard mowing service should be less than $60 every two weeks. Sounds like he should give up the beer and hire someone, or keep the beer and mow the lawn every other week.


We found a place that does it for $35 for every two weeks and it was the best thing we could have done.  No more stressing about not having time to do it or resentment about getting nagged to do it.  It also gives me more time to drink beer and hangout with my kid.
2017-09-30 11:43:26 AM  
1 vote:

seriously.though: AngryDragon: seriously.though: My husband also doesn't understand. He has two jobs when he's home, walk dog and mow the lawn. He's totally on board with dog, they go to the store and he buys a beer, then they go to the wooded area about 10 mins from the house and chase squirrels for an hour. The lawn is an absolute battle though. He doesn't understand that it has to be done at regular intervals, and he'll let it go for weeks. I explain that it needs to be done when it isn't raining, but he just says it's fine. It's not farking fine! It's a mess. What bugs me is when I break down and do it he gets all mad cause he was "getting to it". It takes me over an hour to get it done cause I have a bad back, it takes him about 20 mins. I do literally everything in the house, because I am a housewife and that is my job, I don't know why it's unreasonable for him to mow the stupid lawn without me being a biatch about it.

Not the same thing.  You're husband is just lazy.

Lazy, procrastinator, butthead... He's not all bad, but this bugs the hell out of me. Dog needs a clean yard, he loves dog, but doesn't see that he shouldn't be wandering around in his own filth.


A daily beer is about $30/week, given the markup most places have when you buy 'em one at a time. A yard mowing service should be less than $60 every two weeks. Sounds like he should give up the beer and hire someone, or keep the beer and mow the lawn every other week.
2017-09-30 11:34:32 AM  
1 vote:

seriously.though: casual disregard: seriously.though: AngryDragon: seriously.though: My husband also doesn't understand. He has two jobs when he's home, walk dog and mow the lawn. He's totally on board with dog, they go to the store and he buys a beer, then they go to the wooded area about 10 mins from the house and chase squirrels for an hour. The lawn is an absolute battle though. He doesn't understand that it has to be done at regular intervals, and he'll let it go for weeks. I explain that it needs to be done when it isn't raining, but he just says it's fine. It's not farking fine! It's a mess. What bugs me is when I break down and do it he gets all mad cause he was "getting to it". It takes me over an hour to get it done cause I have a bad back, it takes him about 20 mins. I do literally everything in the house, because I am a housewife and that is my job, I don't know why it's unreasonable for him to mow the stupid lawn without me being a biatch about it.

Not the same thing.  You're husband is just lazy.

Lazy, procrastinator, butthead... He's not all bad, but this bugs the hell out of me. Dog needs a clean yard, he loves dog, but doesn't see that he shouldn't be wandering around in his own filth.

Divorce him. I'm unmarried, but if something is that bad that you complain about it to strangers on a webzone, the only possible advice I can muster is divorce him. "He's not all bad" sounds like excuse-making to me.

I'm actually just super mad about it today. I asked him to do it last weekend, but he said it could wait, then he left on a hurricane relief mission, and he'll be gone a few weeks. So today I get to clean/ mow the lawn in addition to housework and homework. I also can't be a biatch about it to him cause he's literally delivering basic necessities to PR right now. So biatching on the internet helps me vent so I don't biatch at him while he's on mission.


See, now we find out why the lawn is really not mowed. This is why I'll never marry.
2017-09-30 11:20:42 AM  
1 vote:

ginandbacon: draypresct: I tried reading your mind, but then I got an urge to buy a nice bottle of wine to share with my spouse tonight.

Much better impulse. :) Maybe flowers and a foot massage too...

BTW, guys, never underestimate the power of flowers. Women are idiots. We will go all gooey over flowers. It's the best lesson I taught my little brother and it's served him well. Although he pulls his own weight but everybody needs an out on occasion. Because we are all assholes sometimes. I have advice for the ladies when you fark up but that's for another thread.


Yeah, it took me a while to figure that one out. My wife is generally very practical, and I took her comments about not needing to spend money on flowers at face value for a few years.
2017-09-30 11:19:13 AM  
1 vote:

seriously.though: AngryDragon: seriously.though: My husband also doesn't understand. He has two jobs when he's home, walk dog and mow the lawn. He's totally on board with dog, they go to the store and he buys a beer, then they go to the wooded area about 10 mins from the house and chase squirrels for an hour. The lawn is an absolute battle though. He doesn't understand that it has to be done at regular intervals, and he'll let it go for weeks. I explain that it needs to be done when it isn't raining, but he just says it's fine. It's not farking fine! It's a mess. What bugs me is when I break down and do it he gets all mad cause he was "getting to it". It takes me over an hour to get it done cause I have a bad back, it takes him about 20 mins. I do literally everything in the house, because I am a housewife and that is my job, I don't know why it's unreasonable for him to mow the stupid lawn without me being a biatch about it.

Not the same thing.  You're husband is just lazy.

Lazy, procrastinator, butthead... He's not all bad, but this bugs the hell out of me. Dog needs a clean yard, he loves dog, but doesn't see that he shouldn't be wandering around in his own filth.


Divorce him. I'm unmarried, but if something is that bad that you complain about it to strangers on a webzone, the only possible advice I can muster is divorce him. "He's not all bad" sounds like excuse-making to me.
2017-09-30 11:08:15 AM  
1 vote:

ginandbacon: So the fact that she's in charge of the household and their budget means he shouldn't figure out how to make one day easier for her? 

It sounds like what you are saying is that she should lower her expectations.


I was trying to say that more communication (both ways) would be key, but it looks like I failed to communicate that.

ginandbacon: draypresct:

And I appreciate your kind words and perspective which I totally failed to communicate before. Just in case you can't read my mind. ;)


Thanks!

/I tried reading your mind, but then I got an urge to buy a nice bottle of wine to share with my spouse tonight.
2017-09-30 11:07:26 AM  
1 vote:
What I wanted was for him to ask friends on Facebook for a recommendation, call four or five more services, do the emotional labor I would have done if the job had fallen to me. I had wanted to hire out deep cleaning for a while, especially since my freelance work had picked up considerably. The reason I hadn't done it yet was part guilt over not doing my housework, and an even larger part of not wanting to deal with the work of hiring a service. I knew exactly how exhausting it was going to be. That's why I asked my husband to do it as a gift.

...and yet, for some reason, I couldn't bring myself to just tell that to him, just as I have done right now in this very blog.

You know, just like when she replied, "That's the point, I don't want to have to ask."

See? He did something wrong, you explained why you were upset. Nice, straightforward communication. None of this passive-aggressive bullshiat.

Also:

In his mind...
and

...he would take it as me saying...

Oh, now I can see why she's upset: since she can read his mind, she expects him to be able to read hers as well. :-)

I kid, partially. Yes, wanting to not have to ask him to do simple things like cleaning up after himself is not unreasonable*. Wanting him to do things a certain way because you have hidden motive ("The real gift I wanted") and then being surprised that he doesn't do it that way is unreasonable.

Aside: The fact that he needs his efforts recognized, while perhaps annoying, shouldn't be something to be pissy about, as there is probably reason for it (psychologically speaking; it may be something about his upbringing, the way his father was and he copied, etc).

It also shouldn't be something that she is just discovering. And if not, why let it just sit out there and keep letting it get under her skin?

That's the thing I don't get about people: if it bothers you, why let it continue to build up until it makes you explode? Or, if not the cause of the explosion, people certainly find that the to be the perfect time to finally vent about it (which doesn't help, as it just adds the to the clutter of the situation and lost in the emotional noise of the main problem).

* one of my peeves, in fact
2017-09-30 11:01:59 AM  
1 vote:

Theaetetus: draypresct: -he was doing the thing I had most wanted-giving me sparkling bathrooms without having to do it myself. Which is why he was frustrated when I ungratefully passed by, not looking at his handiwork
Good managers give feedback on the result; it seems like she didn't care about the result, only the process.

You clipped this of its context in order to intentionally distort the article. Allow me to restore it:
In his mind, he was doing the thing I had most wanted-giving me sparkling bathrooms without having to do it myself. Which is why he was frustrated when I ungratefully passed by, not looking at his handiwork as I put away his shoes, shirt and socks that had been left on the floor. I stumbled over the box of gift wrap... I had to get a kitchen chair and drag it into our closet so I could reach the shelf where it belonged.

That, in fact, wasn't the thing she had most wanted. It didn't achieve the result she wanted, so it's not that she didn't care about the result, but rather, her desired result - being able to relax - was unfulfilled.


Perhaps I should have said that it seemed like she didn't care about her _stated_ result? My point in the post was about the feedback, though, and that would have been a good thing for her to provide either way. 

You're misrepresenting the article in the same way that Weaver, AeroJockey, and AngryDragon were. It's not about some level of cleanliness she wants or whether it's "up to her standards", but rather that she would like the household tasks done without having to spend any thought or effort on it.The previous sentence, that you also clipped out, highlights this:
I was gifted a necklace for Mother's Day while my husband stole away to deep clean the bathrooms, leaving me to care for our children as the rest of the house fell into total disarray.


No, I'm pointing out that she doesn't want the house clean; she wants the house clean in precisely the way she would do it, without spending emotional energy on a discussion. It's an important difference, and it doesn't mean that his standards are lower or higher. I usually see this when people have lived by themselves for several years before moving in together, but I could be wrong.

With regards to the clip you just posted, there are two more relevant quotes:

I had to tell him how much I appreciated the bathroom cleaning, but perhaps he could do it another time (like when our kids were in bed).
He does dishes every night habitually. He often makes dinner. He will handle bedtime for the kids when I am working.


More communication seems key here. If she'd told him that she expected him to do this after the kids went to bed, he might have been able to let her know that between putting kids to bed and washing the dishes afterwards, he didn't feel he would have the time and energy to start a deep-cleaning project. They might have been able to discuss a different solution, like contacting his mother to babysit.

Theaetetus: Had he hired a cleaning service, then she could be relaxing in the hammock with a drink and a book while he took care of the kids and house. Y'know, the sort of thing dads reasonably expect (and get) for father's day.


It took long enough to clean the bathrooms that 'the house fell into disarray." It seems like we're talking thousands, not hundreds of dollars ($30/hr for 5-10 hours). This sort of expense can be pretty stressful, too.

As for relaxing on Father's day, well, my experience might not be normal, but I don't think that's something that parents of young children get to do, even on Father's/Mother's/birth/whateverday.  

Theaetetus: /that said, he seems clueless and she seems to be a terrible communicator, though hopefully, he reads this article


We don't know his side of the story. To her credit, she goes out of her way to point out his good qualities.
2017-09-30 10:50:19 AM  
1 vote:

draypresct: ginandbacon: I would probably have tried to make an analogy to what it's like when you have a new hire you have to train. It's exhausting. It takes longer to show someone how to do something than it does to just do it yourself, but it's worth it because eventually, they will be able to do the work on their own.

In the domestic sphere however, men rarely get to that do it themselves point.

I like your analogy (and your well-written post).

I would extend it a bit further, though. There exist good bosses and bad bosses, and training a new employee takes time, effort, and lots of communication. It sounds like that last element was a bit lacking, here.

There were also a few hints that this person might be micromanaging:
-since I control the budget
The budget is a pretty important part of a marriage; having one partner control it completely is usually a bad sign, although maybe he's just incompetent with money.

-What I wanted was for him to ask friends on Facebook for a recommendation, call four or five more services, do the emotional labor I would have done if the job had fallen to me
She's specifying the process, not the result. That's something a manager should only do with a brand-new, inexperienced employee.

-he was doing the thing I had most wanted-giving me sparkling bathrooms without having to do it myself. Which is why he was frustrated when I ungratefully passed by, not looking at his handiwork
Good managers give feedback on the result; it seems like she didn't care about the result, only the process.

-he called a single service, decided they were too expensive, and vowed to clean the bathrooms himself. He still gave me the choice, of course. He told me the high dollar amount of completing the cleaning services I requested
Unless he specifically picked an expensive service, it sounds like he assumed that any cleaning service he called would be within a reasonable range of each other, since they are competing with each other. When their price was much la ...


So the fact that she's in charge of the household and their budget means he shouldn't figure out how to make one day easier for her? 

It sounds like what you are saying is that she should lower her expectations.
2017-09-30 10:47:23 AM  
1 vote:

Snarfangel: ginandbacon: BTW, women initiate 69% of divorces...just sayin'.

Probably for the 69% of marriages men initiate.


So the real key to a successful marriage is lots of 69s?
2017-09-30 10:43:06 AM  
1 vote:

stainedglassdoll: AntonChigger: I love it when my wife gets mad at a mess that I didn't realize I made in the kitchen, but when I offer to take responsibility and clean it up because I am literally two feet away, she goes "no I'll just do it" and then proceeds to be grouchy about having to clean it up for a while afterwards.

Maybe your wife is not grouchy about having to clean it up, but because you're so self-unaware that you don't even realize you're making messes.

/kind of the point of the article


Yeah I'm workin on it, but it would be nice to be given the opportunity to take responsibility for my mistakes and fix them so I can improve myself.

/marriage is always a work in progress
2017-09-30 10:38:15 AM  
1 vote:

ginandbacon: Both times he was "doing something" for her which ended up creating more work for her and got hurt and defensive when she was understandably pissed off. It's like cooking somebody dinner and destroying the kitchen in the process. Thanks?


Well said.

The second thing was how their son wants a farking medal for being a good boy and their daughter just does her chores and goes on about her business. At six and four...
There is plenty of data to back this up, women in domestic heterosexual relationships do the majority of housework, childcare, and eldercare.


Well, can you blame us? We've been trained that way since childhood.
2017-09-30 10:22:53 AM  
1 vote:
If you are fed up, get out.

There, emotional problem-solving.
2017-09-30 09:58:56 AM  
1 vote:
Wow...just reading halfway through, and it's clear this couple has major communication issues. He seems clueless about everything and she won't just say what she means. That's a terrible combination.

Over/under on divorce, 2.5 years.
2017-09-30 09:12:24 AM  
1 vote:

AsylumWraith: I like the bed to be made every day, wife doesn't think it's at all important, (and hey, maybe she's right, the sheets ARE gonna get messed up again.) End result; I make the bed.

Wife likes the towels folded a certain way on laundry day, I couldn't care in the slightest. End result; she folds the towels.

Any other way with these things would cause a ton of tension. If I folded the towels, (or loaded the dishwasher, or scrubbed the baseboards,) she'd be unhappy with the job. If she made the bed, (or vacuumed, or paid the bills,) I'd be unhappy with the result.

I work 9 hours a day 5 days a week, from home mostly, and lots of nights and weekends. She works four days a week, 10 hours a day, during the week, with some Saturdays. End result; I do 50% of the cooking, and am mostly responsible for making sure the kid gets dropped off and picked up from school.

When she worked part time, and I worked 50+ out of the house, those chores were adjusted accordingly.

I think there's a couple dynamics here. One is whether or not a person thinks something needs to be done. Another is HOW a person thinks a chore needs to be done. Finally, there are the things that must be done, regardless of desire.

So I make the bed because I'm the only person who cares about it. She folds the towels because they have to be done her way, every time. She loads the dishwasher because she likes it to only be half full when it runs, and has a certain way of arranging it. I take out the trash because I don't want to struggle to get the bag out of the trashcan in the house. I handle transporting the kid, because I'm the one who has time for it. She cooks on the weekend because I'll probably be working.

It's all give and take, and accommodating each other, and circumstances. If we weren't reasonable enough to do that, we wouldn't have lasted as a co-habitating couple for even a year, much less have survived ten years of marriage.

Just my opinion, and what works in my house isn't some kind of unive ...


You've managed to come to a satisfactory arrangement. You do your things your way, she does her things her way, neither of you treads on each others' stuff, and you both appreciate each others' point of view, without being passive aggresive about it.
2017-09-30 09:01:02 AM  
1 vote:

draypresct: Weaver95: "Buy a loaf of bread, and if there are eggs, buy a dozen."  and then I come home with a dozen loaves of bread.  yes, its cliche but when I get tired, my brain defaults to a base level of logical input command line arguments and manual input parameters.

That's not tired, and that's also not being a programmer. You were being passive aggressive. Own it.

/Speaking as someone with a few decades experience programming as a statistical analyst and having worked with hundreds of 'real' programmers, I would seriously question the competence of any programmer who responded to spec with those kinds of results. Either they don't understand English ("a" loaf), or they don't review their outputs to see if they're even marginally within a realistic range.


Also, human conversation is always shorthand. There is a lot of gaps in understanding because we really don't have the time to express every idea in Dickens level detail. It is understood that the other part is capable of understanding and is working with you to communicate.

Computers lack that capability of understanding. And that is why computer code is so damn verbose and pedantic.
2017-09-30 08:27:04 AM  
1 vote:
Good luck buddy
2017-09-30 08:11:43 AM  
1 vote:

chaosangel: I am confused as to why this is called emotional labor.  The term mental labor makes more sense to me, as planning, comparison shopping, etc. are mental tasks. Emotional labor sounds like when I get together with girl friends who whine on and on about superficial stuff and I have to try to listen and be supportive without going into problem solving mode.

But then again, I've never been a "normal" woman and have always related better to men, so perhaps this is a new term that I've missed by limiting my interaction with girlie girls.

As for this article, it seems that this woman should be well aware that her hubby is incapable of providing her requested gift.  We all have our limits and short comings. If you can't accept that and learn to work around them, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

My hubby is a super genius code monkey. I've long ago accepted that his dirty underwear in the middle of the bedroom floor and the dishes and beer bottles all over the house are just invisible and inconsequential to him. He does what he does well, mows the lawn, takes out the garbage and that's all I'm ever going to get.

Accepting that and learning to work around it protected me from frustration.


Goddammit you've got close to a perfect arrangement. Well done - no snark.
2017-09-30 07:55:27 AM  
1 vote:

Weaver95: i've had similar conversations like the ones in this article with my girlfriend.  in our case, I work third shift AND i've been a programmer most of my life.  so asking me to do things has actually been teaching her the basics of SQL scripting without her even knowing.

"Buy a loaf of bread, and if there are eggs, buy a dozen."  and then I come home with a dozen loaves of bread.  yes, its cliche but when I get tired, my brain defaults to a base level of logical input command line arguments and manual input parameters. so she's gotten better about being specific.  I honestly don't mean to be  offensive, its just how my brain works at times. drives her nuts sometimes.  communication is kind of important and getting upset when someone does what you ask but did so in a way you didn't like, want or expect isn't a necessarily going to be a problem unless you want to MAKE it a problem.


Okay, you don't mean to do it, it's just the way your brain works. Fair enough - no snark, I understand. But surely you learn and adjust? You can't still be bringing home a dozen loaves of bread after X years of co-habitation? Everyone learns, or should. I learned to not assume that household chores would be roughly equal, given adjustments for hours worked/hours spent in childcare/etc. But I was wrong - shared labour would be adjusted according to how much *I* put in - IOW, the more I did, the more I was expected to do, and that didn't lead to a happy ending.
2017-09-30 07:40:54 AM  
1 vote:

Weaver95: ol' gormsby: Weaver95: ginandbacon: If something needs doing and you can only get around to doing it if someone else tells you to, you are an immature parasite.

nothing in the world works like this.  if you cannot communicate your needs and wants effectively, then it is not your partner's fault.  that's on YOU, not them.

Jesu, what are you smoking? Do the dishes need doing? Do them. Does the vacuuming need doing? Do it. Does the {whatever} need doing? THEN FARKING DO IT!

Seriously, take a look around the house/apartment and make up your mind. Does {this thing} need doing? Well, you have a choice. You can do it, or you can ignore it and hope your partner decides to do it. If you decide to ignore it, then *you* are the problem, not your partner. Grow up. If you need to repeatedly explain your wants and needs about such basic things as dishes/vacuuming/shopping/washing clothes, then your relationship is headed for its ending - like mine did. I never knew people could just ignore household chores then act surprised at the consequences. My mistake, and I've learned a lesson.

did you bother to read the article?  looks like that's exactly what hubby here was already doing...he just wasn't doing it to HER standards...which she is apparently tired and offended to bother explaining to her husband.


Yeah, I wasn't responding to the article, though.
2017-09-30 06:02:20 AM  
1 vote:

Weaver95: i've had similar conversations like the ones in this article with my girlfriend.  in our case, I work third shift AND i've been a programmer most of my life.  so asking me to do things has actually been teaching her the basics of SQL scripting without her even knowing.

"Buy a loaf of bread, and if there are eggs, buy a dozen."  and then I come home with a dozen loaves of bread.  yes, its cliche but when I get tired, my brain defaults to a base level of logical input command line arguments and manual input parameters. so she's gotten better about being specific.  I honestly don't mean to be  offensive, its just how my brain works at times. drives her nuts sometimes.  communication is kind of important and getting upset when someone does what you ask but did so in a way you didn't like, want or expect isn't a necessarily going to be a problem unless you want to MAKE it a problem.


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Youtube 11fCIGcCa9c
2017-09-30 05:53:37 AM  
1 vote:
i've had similar conversations like the ones in this article with my girlfriend.  in our case, I work third shift AND i've been a programmer most of my life.  so asking me to do things has actually been teaching her the basics of SQL scripting without her even knowing.

"Buy a loaf of bread, and if there are eggs, buy a dozen."  and then I come home with a dozen loaves of bread.  yes, its cliche but when I get tired, my brain defaults to a base level of logical input command line arguments and manual input parameters. so she's gotten better about being specific.  I honestly don't mean to be  offensive, its just how my brain works at times. drives her nuts sometimes.  communication is kind of important and getting upset when someone does what you ask but did so in a way you didn't like, want or expect isn't a necessarily going to be a problem unless you want to MAKE it a problem.
2017-09-30 04:51:11 AM  
1 vote:

ginandbacon: Annnnnd here we go.


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But seriously, you being one of the rare female Farkers (I think), what's your take on TFA?
 
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