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(Harpers Bazaar)   We are not nagging. We are just fed up   ( harpersbazaar.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, emotional labor, Gender, Emotion, Gender role, husband, Homemaker, emotional labor duties, emotional labor skills  
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4426 clicks; posted to Geek » on 30 Sep 2017 at 5:00 AM (10 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-09-30 08:37:48 AM  

UDel_Kitty: ....But cooking isn't hard. ....


I don't think cooking is hard, but I've known plenty of people who do.

Do not assume people have the skills and knowledge you do. You kind of blow your argument by including cooking when saying how easy stuff is.

Every relationship has its own dynamics, and I'm not going to assume I understand someone else's from a short article. However, she clearly needs to have a long discussion with her husband.
 
2017-09-30 08:41:18 AM  

ol' gormsby: Weaver95: ginandbacon: If something needs doing and you can only get around to doing it if someone else tells you to, you are an immature parasite.

nothing in the world works like this.  if you cannot communicate your needs and wants effectively, then it is not your partner's fault.  that's on YOU, not them.

Jesu, what are you smoking? Do the dishes need doing? Do them. Does the vacuuming need doing? Do it. Does the {whatever} need doing? THEN FARKING DO IT!

Seriously, take a look around the house/apartment and make up your mind. Does {this thing} need doing? Well, you have a choice. You can do it, or you can ignore it and hope your partner decides to do it. If you decide to ignore it, then *you* are the problem, not your partner. Grow up. If you need to repeatedly explain your wants and needs about such basic things as dishes/vacuuming/shopping/washing clothes, then your relationship is headed for its ending - like mine did. I never knew people could just ignore household chores then act surprised at the consequences. My mistake, and I've learned a lesson.


No, if you can not communicate then you are the problem. All they know is you are being lazy about the work you usually do, for some reason.
 
2017-09-30 08:45:45 AM  

Fano: ol' gormsby: Weaver95: ginandbacon: If something needs doing and you can only get around to doing it if someone else tells you to, you are an immature parasite.

nothing in the world works like this.  if you cannot communicate your needs and wants effectively, then it is not your partner's fault.  that's on YOU, not them.

Jesu, what are you smoking? Do the dishes need doing? Do them. Does the vacuuming need doing? Do it. Does the {whatever} need doing? THEN FARKING DO IT!

Seriously, take a look around the house/apartment and make up your mind. Does {this thing} need doing? Well, you have a choice. You can do it, or you can ignore it and hope your partner decides to do it. If you decide to ignore it, then *you* are the problem, not your partner. Grow up. If you need to repeatedly explain your wants and needs about such basic things as dishes/vacuuming/shopping/washing clothes, then your relationship is headed for its ending - like mine did. I never knew people could just ignore household chores then act surprised at the consequences. My mistake, and I've learned a lesson.

No, if you can not communicate then you are the problem. All they know is you are being lazy about the work you usually do, for some reason.


Yea, ignoring it and crossing your fingers that your passive aggressiveness will be properly interpreted is setting yourself up for failure.
 
2017-09-30 08:45:47 AM  

Smackledorfer: UDel_Kitty: ....But cooking isn't hard. ....

I don't think cooking is hard, but I've known plenty of people who do.

Do not assume people have the skills and knowledge you do. You kind of blow your argument by including cooking when saying how easy stuff is.

Every relationship has its own dynamics, and I'm not going to assume I understand someone else's from a short article. However, she clearly needs to have a long discussion with her husband.


Young gormsby 1 and 2 will not depart my oversight without knowing some basic household skills. Cooking basics and a couple of weeks' worth of recipes (25% done). How to wash dishes (already done). How to change and wash bedsheets (50% done). How to wield a vacuum cleaner (done). How to clean a toilet bowl, bathroom sink, shower stall, etc - you get the idea. Ditto checking the oil and coolant in a car. I would consider myself a failure as a parent if they didn't have at least this much.
 
2017-09-30 08:50:01 AM  

ol' gormsby: Smackledorfer: UDel_Kitty: ....But cooking isn't hard. ....

I don't think cooking is hard, but I've known plenty of people who do.

Do not assume people have the skills and knowledge you do. You kind of blow your argument by including cooking when saying how easy stuff is.

Every relationship has its own dynamics, and I'm not going to assume I understand someone else's from a short article. However, she clearly needs to have a long discussion with her husband.

Young gormsby 1 and 2 will not depart my oversight without knowing some basic household skills. Cooking basics and a couple of weeks' worth of recipes (25% done). How to wash dishes (already done). How to change and wash bedsheets (50% done). How to wield a vacuum cleaner (done). How to clean a toilet bowl, bathroom sink, shower stall, etc - you get the idea. Ditto checking the oil and coolant in a car. I would consider myself a failure as a parent if they didn't have at least this much.


K.
 
2017-09-30 08:59:08 AM  

Fano: ol' gormsby: Weaver95: ginandbacon: If something needs doing and you can only get around to doing it if someone else tells you to, you are an immature parasite.

nothing in the world works like this.  if you cannot communicate your needs and wants effectively, then it is not your partner's fault.  that's on YOU, not them.

Jesu, what are you smoking? Do the dishes need doing? Do them. Does the vacuuming need doing? Do it. Does the {whatever} need doing? THEN FARKING DO IT!

Seriously, take a look around the house/apartment and make up your mind. Does {this thing} need doing? Well, you have a choice. You can do it, or you can ignore it and hope your partner decides to do it. If you decide to ignore it, then *you* are the problem, not your partner. Grow up. If you need to repeatedly explain your wants and needs about such basic things as dishes/vacuuming/shopping/washing clothes, then your relationship is headed for its ending - like mine did. I never knew people could just ignore household chores then act surprised at the consequences. My mistake, and I've learned a lesson.

No, if you can not communicate then you are the problem. All they know is you are being lazy about the work you usually do, for some reason.


Oh, I communicated. I communicated calmly, clearly and with love - at least, to begin with. The message, whether it got through or not, just didn't resonate.

And - "the work you usually do" -  misses the point.
 
2017-09-30 09:01:02 AM  

draypresct: Weaver95: "Buy a loaf of bread, and if there are eggs, buy a dozen."  and then I come home with a dozen loaves of bread.  yes, its cliche but when I get tired, my brain defaults to a base level of logical input command line arguments and manual input parameters.

That's not tired, and that's also not being a programmer. You were being passive aggressive. Own it.

/Speaking as someone with a few decades experience programming as a statistical analyst and having worked with hundreds of 'real' programmers, I would seriously question the competence of any programmer who responded to spec with those kinds of results. Either they don't understand English ("a" loaf), or they don't review their outputs to see if they're even marginally within a realistic range.


Also, human conversation is always shorthand. There is a lot of gaps in understanding because we really don't have the time to express every idea in Dickens level detail. It is understood that the other part is capable of understanding and is working with you to communicate.

Computers lack that capability of understanding. And that is why computer code is so damn verbose and pedantic.
 
2017-09-30 09:04:55 AM  

ol' gormsby: Fano: ol' gormsby: Weaver95: ginandbacon: If something needs doing and you can only get around to doing it if someone else tells you to, you are an immature parasite.

nothing in the world works like this.  if you cannot communicate your needs and wants effectively, then it is not your partner's fault.  that's on YOU, not them.

Jesu, what are you smoking? Do the dishes need doing? Do them. Does the vacuuming need doing? Do it. Does the {whatever} need doing? THEN FARKING DO IT!

Seriously, take a look around the house/apartment and make up your mind. Does {this thing} need doing? Well, you have a choice. You can do it, or you can ignore it and hope your partner decides to do it. If you decide to ignore it, then *you* are the problem, not your partner. Grow up. If you need to repeatedly explain your wants and needs about such basic things as dishes/vacuuming/shopping/washing clothes, then your relationship is headed for its ending - like mine did. I never knew people could just ignore household chores then act surprised at the consequences. My mistake, and I've learned a lesson.

No, if you can not communicate then you are the problem. All they know is you are being lazy about the work you usually do, for some reason.

Oh, I communicated. I communicated calmly, clearly and with love - at least, to begin with. The message, whether it got through or not, just didn't resonate.

And - "the work you usually do" -  misses the point.


Then what's wrong? Dobby is free!
 
2017-09-30 09:04:57 AM  
"Emotional Labor" = "The things I do that I hate that I don't tell you about but you should see and praise me for and which I wish I didn't have to do but if I didn't no one would and it would drive me crazy so quit making me do this stuff I choose to do."
 
2017-09-30 09:07:13 AM  

Weaver95: draypresct: That's not tired, and that's also not being a programmer. You were being passive aggressive. Own it.

no, that's me being tired.  I spend a LOT of time writing code.


Ok, on that I hear you brother. Hell I even have to switch to listening to foreign music some days. Programming really saps the speech center of my brain. Enough that passively processing music lyrics is like running on a sore foot.

I've also had to tell coworkers to give me a second to compose myself if they interrupt me while editing a source file. It like I have to pack my brain back into the car and come home.

You ever dream in code?
 
2017-09-30 09:09:08 AM  
I like the bed to be made every day, wife doesn't think it's at all important, (and hey, maybe she's right, the sheets ARE gonna get messed up again.) End result; I make the bed.

Wife likes the towels folded a certain way on laundry day, I couldn't care in the slightest. End result; she folds the towels.

Any other way with these things would cause a ton of tension. If I folded the towels, (or loaded the dishwasher, or scrubbed the baseboards,) she'd be unhappy with the job. If she made the bed, (or vacuumed, or paid the bills,) I'd be unhappy with the result.

I work 9 hours a day 5 days a week, from home mostly, and lots of nights and weekends. She works four days a week, 10 hours a day, during the week, with some Saturdays. End result; I do 50% of the cooking, and am mostly responsible for making sure the kid gets dropped off and picked up from school.

When she worked part time, and I worked 50+ out of the house, those chores were adjusted accordingly.

I think there's a couple dynamics here. One is whether or not a person thinks something needs to be done. Another is HOW a person thinks a chore needs to be done. Finally, there are the things that must be done, regardless of desire.

So I make the bed because I'm the only person who cares about it. She folds the towels because they have to be done her way, every time. She loads the dishwasher because she likes it to only be half full when it runs, and has a certain way of arranging it. I take out the trash because I don't want to struggle to get the bag out of the trashcan in the house. I handle transporting the kid, because I'm the one who has time for it. She cooks on the weekend because I'll probably be working.

It's all give and take, and accommodating each other, and circumstances. If we weren't reasonable enough to do that, we wouldn't have lasted as a co-habitating couple for even a year, much less have survived ten years of marriage.

Just my opinion, and what works in my house isn't some kind of universal solution.
 
2017-09-30 09:09:09 AM  

Fano: ol' gormsby: Fano: ol' gormsby: Weaver95: ginandbacon: If something needs doing and you can only get around to doing it if someone else tells you to, you are an immature parasite.

nothing in the world works like this.  if you cannot communicate your needs and wants effectively, then it is not your partner's fault.  that's on YOU, not them.

Jesu, what are you smoking? Do the dishes need doing? Do them. Does the vacuuming need doing? Do it. Does the {whatever} need doing? THEN FARKING DO IT!

Seriously, take a look around the house/apartment and make up your mind. Does {this thing} need doing? Well, you have a choice. You can do it, or you can ignore it and hope your partner decides to do it. If you decide to ignore it, then *you* are the problem, not your partner. Grow up. If you need to repeatedly explain your wants and needs about such basic things as dishes/vacuuming/shopping/washing clothes, then your relationship is headed for its ending - like mine did. I never knew people could just ignore household chores then act surprised at the consequences. My mistake, and I've learned a lesson.

No, if you can not communicate then you are the problem. All they know is you are being lazy about the work you usually do, for some reason.

Oh, I communicated. I communicated calmly, clearly and with love - at least, to begin with. The message, whether it got through or not, just didn't resonate.

And - "the work you usually do" -  misses the point.

Then what's wrong? Dobby is free!


That's a thought - throw a sock at the ex and see if she gets the message?
 
2017-09-30 09:12:24 AM  

AsylumWraith: I like the bed to be made every day, wife doesn't think it's at all important, (and hey, maybe she's right, the sheets ARE gonna get messed up again.) End result; I make the bed.

Wife likes the towels folded a certain way on laundry day, I couldn't care in the slightest. End result; she folds the towels.

Any other way with these things would cause a ton of tension. If I folded the towels, (or loaded the dishwasher, or scrubbed the baseboards,) she'd be unhappy with the job. If she made the bed, (or vacuumed, or paid the bills,) I'd be unhappy with the result.

I work 9 hours a day 5 days a week, from home mostly, and lots of nights and weekends. She works four days a week, 10 hours a day, during the week, with some Saturdays. End result; I do 50% of the cooking, and am mostly responsible for making sure the kid gets dropped off and picked up from school.

When she worked part time, and I worked 50+ out of the house, those chores were adjusted accordingly.

I think there's a couple dynamics here. One is whether or not a person thinks something needs to be done. Another is HOW a person thinks a chore needs to be done. Finally, there are the things that must be done, regardless of desire.

So I make the bed because I'm the only person who cares about it. She folds the towels because they have to be done her way, every time. She loads the dishwasher because she likes it to only be half full when it runs, and has a certain way of arranging it. I take out the trash because I don't want to struggle to get the bag out of the trashcan in the house. I handle transporting the kid, because I'm the one who has time for it. She cooks on the weekend because I'll probably be working.

It's all give and take, and accommodating each other, and circumstances. If we weren't reasonable enough to do that, we wouldn't have lasted as a co-habitating couple for even a year, much less have survived ten years of marriage.

Just my opinion, and what works in my house isn't some kind of unive ...


You've managed to come to a satisfactory arrangement. You do your things your way, she does her things her way, neither of you treads on each others' stuff, and you both appreciate each others' point of view, without being passive aggresive about it.
 
2017-09-30 09:17:00 AM  

Weaver95: i've had similar conversations like the ones in this article with my girlfriend.  in our case, I work third shift AND i've been a programmer most of my life.  so asking me to do things has actually been teaching her the basics of SQL scripting without her even knowing.

"Buy a loaf of bread, and if there are eggs, buy a dozen."  and then I come home with a dozen loaves of bread.  yes, its cliche but when I get tired, my brain defaults to a base level of logical input command line arguments and manual input parameters. so she's gotten better about being specific.  I honestly don't mean to be  offensive, its just how my brain works at times. drives her nuts sometimes.  communication is kind of important and getting upset when someone does what you ask but did so in a way you didn't like, want or expect isn't a necessarily going to be a problem unless you want to MAKE it a problem.


So you suffer from literalism too.  I've got in so many arguments with bosses at work because of that it's not funny.

You need to paint and prime that then...

....wait, prime then paint, right?

Do you really have to ask that?

Yes.
 
2017-09-30 09:25:21 AM  
Meh. There's definitely a point to be made here, and most men do need to step up in their role as equal partners in the home maintenance and upkeep routine. But... that point takes a paragraph or two to explicate adequately.

So instead, we treated to pages of emotive overreach and blah blah blah blah blah men should be more like women blah blah. Which does nothing but preach to the choir while missing the intended target audience by miles and miles.

Guys, be more responsible for your own shiat. Ladies, clear communication is a goddamn responsibility, too.

All cool now?
 
2017-09-30 09:25:49 AM  
Every team I've been on has had a team lead who is responsible for the overall success of the team and does the mental work of synthesizing, reviewing, planning the overall work of the team. Good leaders encourage and develop the initiative of the team. But (usually) that leader is recognized as such, compensated better (either pay or benefits such as deference to guidance or whatever).
In a relationship and managing a household, the author argues, that the default is that the woman is the de facto leader responsible for doing all of the team leader work while both the man and woman are responsible for executing the required tasks. I mean, as said earlier in the thread, cooking, cleaning, etc. are not innate tasks that people are just "good" at. But, as I've often seen, women are responsible for them because they're women, not because they're any good at them. So, even from a young age, they're trained to do them and be responsible for them in a way that men aren't.

I mean, theres a whole social tripe about the dirty bachelor. Cleaning up and maintaining a household is accepted as just something guys aren't good at and they need a woman to straighten them out and get it worked out for them.

Anyways, if a couple wants to have that division of mental responsibilities, cool, go for it. But, in my opinion, men shouldn't be going into relationships expecting their partner to be responsible for doing the leadership tasks and then act dumb or offended and say their partner should have just communicated better about expectations.
 
2017-09-30 09:26:55 AM  

fusillade762: ginandbacon: Annnnnd here we go.

[img.fark.net image 480x360]

But seriously, you being one of the rare female Farkers (I think), what's your take on TFA?


I thought it was spot on although not necessarily presented in the best way.

I would probably have tried to make an analogy to what it's like when you have a new hire you have to train. It's exhausting. It takes longer to show someone how to do something than it does to just do it yourself, but it's worth it because eventually, they will be able to do the work on their own.

In the domestic sphere however, men rarely get to that do it themselves point.

There were two things that jumped out at me:

The whole Mother's day debacle--the incident where her husband took out the wrapping paper and didn't put it away (are you farking kidding me?) and when she explained what she wanted for a gift which he not only didn't do, but ended up sticking her with childcare while he half-arsed cleaning the bathroom.  She wanted him to do a little research, find a good cleaning company, and get some chores done really well. He did less than she would have done on a normal day and made her pay for it. Both times he was "doing something" for her which ended up creating more work for her and got hurt and defensive when she was understandably pissed off. It's like cooking somebody dinner and destroying the kitchen in the process. Thanks?

The second thing was how their son wants a farking medal for being a good boy and their daughter just does her chores and goes on about her business. At six and four.

When I walk into a room, I ask myself what needs to be done. When I leave a room, I ask myself what I should take out of there. A lot of men ask themselves what they *want* to do. And they feel like they deserve extra credit if they do an "ought".

There is plenty of data to back this up, women in domestic heterosexual relationships do the majority of housework, childcare, and eldercare.

Someone once told me that men have all of the power and none of the responsibility. That's obviously hyperbole, but it gets at a fundamental truth.

And I need to say that I have lived with some women who are like this--they will walk into the kitchen you just spent an hour completely cleaning and leave a coffee cup in the empty sink and walk away even though the dishwasher is literally two inches to the right. WTF? BUT men have that market cornered.

The emotional cost that the author is talking about is how much more work it is to try to get your partner to do something vs. just getting it done yourself. It's like being a parent. To nag or not to nag? Either way you lose.
 
2017-09-30 09:28:45 AM  

Adss2009: Every team I've been on has had a team lead who is responsible for the overall success of the team and does the mental work of synthesizing, reviewing, planning the overall work of the team. Good leaders encourage and develop the initiative of the team. But (usually) that leader is recognized as such, compensated better (either pay or benefits such as deference to guidance or whatever).
In a relationship and managing a household, the author argues, that the default is that the woman is the de facto leader responsible for doing all of the team leader work while both the man and woman are responsible for executing the required tasks. I mean, as said earlier in the thread, cooking, cleaning, etc. are not innate tasks that people are just "good" at. But, as I've often seen, women are responsible for them because they're women, not because they're any good at them. So, even from a young age, they're trained to do them and be responsible for them in a way that men aren't.

I mean, theres a whole social tripe about the dirty bachelor. Cleaning up and maintaining a household is accepted as just something guys aren't good at and they need a woman to straighten them out and get it worked out for them.

Anyways, if a couple wants to have that division of mental responsibilities, cool, go for it. But, in my opinion, men shouldn't be going into relationships expecting their partner to be responsible for doing the leadership tasks and then act dumb or offended and say their partner should have just communicated better about expectations.


Tldr; it's guys fault for because reasons
 
2017-09-30 09:35:02 AM  

AngryDragon: She asks for a gift.  He suggests it's too expensive and decides to do it himself, which I argue is sharing the "emotional labor". She gets irritated that it isn't done to her standards and when he clearly doesn't understand her frustration, because she can't communicate it to him, she writes this rant.

Lady, the problem isn't your husband, it's you.


And then she elevates her resentment as an expression of a worldwide grievance held by one half of humanity against the other half.  Yeesh.
 
2017-09-30 09:36:26 AM  
As a stay at home mom (something I am normally loathe to admit in fark threads), I feel like I have an advantage here. My job is literally to manage the running of the household, so it is expected that I will nag. My husband expects that I will manage the schedule and priorities, and so do I, and so do the kids. Do I wish my husband was occasionally more proactive about dealing with certain things? Sure. But he also does work at both work and home, and he's a great husband and dad. So in our case, the clarity about our current roles works to reduce stress because our expectations all match reality. Someday when I work again, we will communicate to each other how expectations need to change, and then everyone will do their best (which is not the same as perfection) to stick to the plan. The people in the article have not communicated the roles they want to each other and made a plan. That's on both of them, not just one.

That said, if you're a person who likes to say to your partner: "Hey, could you pick x, y, and z up at the store?" then... Stop. Just stop. Install google keep on both your phones, start a keep doc called "grocery list" and then add what's needed there. Have them do the same. It is the kindest thing you can do for the person in charge of the grocery shopping. Better living through technology, people.
 
2017-09-30 09:46:00 AM  
I doubt the husband believes the house needs a "deep cleaning". He believes the house is good enough as long as it is uncluttered and mold-free. Only her fear of being judged by her girlfriends makes her believe that everything needs to be spotless.
Her emotional labor is solving a problem that only she sees.
 
2017-09-30 09:46:28 AM  

GrendelMk1: draypresct: Weaver95: draypresct: Weaver95: draypresct: That's not tired, and that's also not being a programmer. You were being passive aggressive. Own it.

no, that's me being tired.  I spend a LOT of time writing code.

So do I. And if I saw outputs that far out of any reasonable range as "a dozen loaves of bread", then I'd try to fix my code, not blame the way the specifications were phrased (which were perfectly fine in your example).

abend U4096, STEP01

(Eyeroll)
Your specs are always written in English. If you need someone to write the program for you, you're not a programmer, you're a surly user interface.

I'm a maintenance tech. We have PLCs at work. People write code for them, of course. To my specifications. This has occasioned a long conversation with a programmer who thought I wasn't smart enough to block out functions, but that's a different discussion :P

I'd take both of you dumbasses out back of the distillation units and make you listen to the vacuum pumps without hearing protection until you quit trying to "1-up" each other.

Weaver, that joke is so old my now-deceased father told it. Fark off with it.

Draypresct, you're white-knighting for a cnut. Stop it.

And if either of you arseholes is going to come back at me, I'm not going to be here. I'm going to bed, and fark both of you.


Calling Weaver out on his BS isn't white-knighting. It's more 'welcome to Fark'.

/And yes, if you tried a similar load of BS, I'd call you out on it, too. I'm old and get irritable about that kind of thing.
 
2017-09-30 09:55:49 AM  
Emotional labor? Well, I like to think it could always be worse.

proof.nationalgeographic.comView Full Size
 
2017-09-30 09:56:46 AM  

Fano: Adss2009: Every team I've been on has had a team lead who is responsible for the overall success of the team and does the mental work of synthesizing, reviewing, planning the overall work of the team. Good leaders encourage and develop the initiative of the team. But (usually) that leader is recognized as such, compensated better (either pay or benefits such as deference to guidance or whatever).
In a relationship and managing a household, the author argues, that the default is that the woman is the de facto leader responsible for doing all of the team leader work while both the man and woman are responsible for executing the required tasks. I mean, as said earlier in the thread, cooking, cleaning, etc. are not innate tasks that people are just "good" at. But, as I've often seen, women are responsible for them because they're women, not because they're any good at them. So, even from a young age, they're trained to do them and be responsible for them in a way that men aren't.

I mean, theres a whole social tripe about the dirty bachelor. Cleaning up and maintaining a household is accepted as just something guys aren't good at and they need a woman to straighten them out and get it worked out for them.

Anyways, if a couple wants to have that division of mental responsibilities, cool, go for it. But, in my opinion, men shouldn't be going into relationships expecting their partner to be responsible for doing the leadership tasks and then act dumb or offended and say their partner should have just communicated better about expectations.

Tldr; it's guys fault for because reasons


Or maybe, just maybe, the woman's not just an "insufferable nag who should just communicate better"
I mean, the guys here are trying so hard! Why aren't they being patted on the back for how hard they try! Cooking is HARD and they're just not good at it, but at least they're trying!
 
2017-09-30 09:58:16 AM  

mesmer242: As a stay at home mom (something I am normally loathe to admit in fark threads), I feel like I have an advantage here. My job is literally to manage the running of the household, so it is expected that I will nag. My husband expects that I will manage the schedule and priorities, and so do I, and so do the kids. Do I wish my husband was occasionally more proactive about dealing with certain things? Sure. But he also does work at both work and home, and he's a great husband and dad. So in our case, the clarity about our current roles works to reduce stress because our expectations all match reality. Someday when I work again, we will communicate to each other how expectations need to change, and then everyone will do their best (which is not the same as perfection) to stick to the plan. The people in the article have not communicated the roles they want to each other and made a plan. That's on both of them, not just one.

That said, if you're a person who likes to say to your partner: "Hey, could you pick x, y, and z up at the store?" then... Stop. Just stop. Install google keep on both your phones, start a keep doc called "grocery list" and then add what's needed there. Have them do the same. It is the kindest thing you can do for the person in charge of the grocery shopping. Better living through technology, people.


Technology helps so much. I get sent a shopping list as needed and can clarify, with pictures even
 
2017-09-30 09:58:56 AM  
Wow...just reading halfway through, and it's clear this couple has major communication issues. He seems clueless about everything and she won't just say what she means. That's a terrible combination.

Over/under on divorce, 2.5 years.
 
2017-09-30 09:59:45 AM  

Adss2009: Every team I've been on has had a team lead who is responsible for the overall success of the team and does the mental work of synthesizing, reviewing, planning the overall work of the team. Good leaders encourage and develop the initiative of the team. But (usually) that leader is recognized as such, compensated better (either pay or benefits such as deference to guidance or whatever).
In a relationship and managing a household, the author argues, that the default is that the woman is the de facto leader responsible for doing all of the team leader work while both the man and woman are responsible for executing the required tasks. I mean, as said earlier in the thread, cooking, cleaning, etc. are not innate tasks that people are just "good" at. But, as I've often seen, women are responsible for them because they're women, not because they're any good at them. So, even from a young age, they're trained to do them and be responsible for them in a way that men aren't.

I mean, theres a whole social tripe about the dirty bachelor. Cleaning up and maintaining a household is accepted as just something guys aren't good at and they need a woman to straighten them out and get it worked out for them.

Anyways, if a couple wants to have that division of mental responsibilities, cool, go for it. But, in my opinion, men shouldn't be going into relationships expecting their partner to be responsible for doing the leadership tasks and then act dumb or offended and say their partner should have just communicated better about expectations.


There are also "entire social tripes" about blacks being stupid and lazy, Jews bring greedy, Muslims exploding all over the place, gays being incapable of monogamy, and hoo boy, even quite a few about women and their various alleged inferiorities. I do hope you aren't saying that the existence of a stereotype is evidence of something.

I've lived with multiple women over the years, both girlfriends and roommates, and my experience is that they are no cleaner or neater than the guys I've lived with.

My favorite line ever was, "I know you do the dishes and vacuum more than I do, but I hate how messy this place is, we need to clean more".

Me, "sounds good, but how about we start with you cleaning as much as I do, and see if that isn't a satisfactory level"

Or when my gf lost her job and didn't get one for over a year and couldn't figure out why I felt she should do more housework while I worked full time. Like seriously? Is it so wrong for me to come home from a ten hour+ shift and think you could have done two hours of mild housekeeping?

I hate unequal relationships for that reason. I don't know if I'll ever date someone without an active career again. Resentment breeds so quickly.

/Flushed tampons are fun to clean out of pipes.
 
2017-09-30 10:05:58 AM  
So a woman doesn't know what she needs in a house cleaning, the guy thinks he does and he's going to show her how wrong she is.

And of course it was probably the first and last time he failed to clean the bathroom properly.
 
2017-09-30 10:13:46 AM  

ginandbacon: I would probably have tried to make an analogy to what it's like when you have a new hire you have to train. It's exhausting. It takes longer to show someone how to do something than it does to just do it yourself, but it's worth it because eventually, they will be able to do the work on their own.

In the domestic sphere however, men rarely get to that do it themselves point.


I like your analogy (and your well-written post).

I would extend it a bit further, though. There exist good bosses and bad bosses, and training a new employee takes time, effort, and lots of communication. It sounds like that last element was a bit lacking, here.

There were also a few hints that this person might be micromanaging:
-since I control the budget
The budget is a pretty important part of a marriage; having one partner control it completely is usually a bad sign, although maybe he's just incompetent with money.

-What I wanted was for him to ask friends on Facebook for a recommendation, call four or five more services, do the emotional labor I would have done if the job had fallen to me
She's specifying the process, not the result. That's something a manager should only do with a brand-new, inexperienced employee.

-he was doing the thing I had most wanted-giving me sparkling bathrooms without having to do it myself. Which is why he was frustrated when I ungratefully passed by, not looking at his handiwork
Good managers give feedback on the result; it seems like she didn't care about the result, only the process.

-he called a single service, decided they were too expensive, and vowed to clean the bathrooms himself. He still gave me the choice, of course. He told me the high dollar amount of completing the cleaning services I requested
Unless he specifically picked an expensive service, it sounds like he assumed that any cleaning service he called would be within a reasonable range of each other, since they are competing with each other. When their price was much larger than he'd expected, he suggested a different solution instead of trying to shave 20% off that price by calling competitors.

-I don't want to micromanage housework. I want a partner with equal initiative.
This doesn't fit the rest of the clues in the article.

It's always difficult when two people who have lived on their own for a while start living together. You get used to thinking that "This is how I do X, so other methods are wrong." One way of handling this is for the two people to divide up the chores; that way each person gets to handle a set of tasks in their own way. If you've done this for a few years, it can be hard to change these habits.

Of course, I'm assuming here that the husband is a semi-reasonable human being. He could have been actively trying to sabotage his present to her, but that wasn't the tone of the article.

/It was obvious that the box was in the way, that it needed to be put back. It would have been easy for him to just reach up and put it away, but instead he had stepped around it, willfully ignoring it for two days.
They have kids. I guarantee that the box wasn't the only thing that's been sitting out for two days.
 
2017-09-30 10:20:04 AM  
The only problem I have with this is that men, by far, biatch and moan a lot more than women do.
 
2017-09-30 10:22:18 AM  

Adss2009: Fano: Adss2009: Every team I've been on has had a team lead who is responsible for the overall success of the team and does the mental work of synthesizing, reviewing, planning the overall work of the team. Good leaders encourage and develop the initiative of the team. But (usually) that leader is recognized as such, compensated better (either pay or benefits such as deference to guidance or whatever).
In a relationship and managing a household, the author argues, that the default is that the woman is the de facto leader responsible for doing all of the team leader work while both the man and woman are responsible for executing the required tasks. I mean, as said earlier in the thread, cooking, cleaning, etc. are not innate tasks that people are just "good" at. But, as I've often seen, women are responsible for them because they're women, not because they're any good at them. So, even from a young age, they're trained to do them and be responsible for them in a way that men aren't.

I mean, theres a whole social tripe about the dirty bachelor. Cleaning up and maintaining a household is accepted as just something guys aren't good at and they need a woman to straighten them out and get it worked out for them.

Anyways, if a couple wants to have that division of mental responsibilities, cool, go for it. But, in my opinion, men shouldn't be going into relationships expecting their partner to be responsible for doing the leadership tasks and then act dumb or offended and say their partner should have just communicated better about expectations.

Tldr; it's guys fault for because reasons

Or maybe, just maybe, the woman's not just an "insufferable nag who should just communicate better"
I mean, the guys here are trying so hard! Why aren't they being patted on the back for how hard they try! Cooking is HARD and they're just not good at it, but at least they're trying!


Don't be a Donna Don't Bee
 
2017-09-30 10:22:53 AM  
If you are fed up, get out.

There, emotional problem-solving.
 
2017-09-30 10:25:25 AM  
Mrs Aneki made several life decisions post marriage.

The first was that she had no interest in working a job.  So I am wholly responsible for all finances.  The second is that she is shy and hates talking to people besides her limited circle.  This means I am wholly responsible for anything involving communication outside that circle (appointments, service calls, etc.)

This means she does the bulk of managing the kids, getting them to sports practice and back, and cleaning and yard work.  She runs the home.  I help out if asked, but I assume I am not needed unless told otherwise.

She shags like a champ though, so I'll step into her duties and help out more if she "motivates me".

And frankly ladies, that's my advice, positive reinforcement.  Most men I know, including myself, want to be appreciated and shagged.  Like a pet reward me quickly when I do good and you'll get more of that behavior.
 
2017-09-30 10:26:22 AM  
Cooking isn't hard. I've been on fire dozens of times.
 
2017-09-30 10:27:51 AM  

UDel_Kitty: AngryDragon: So it's completely assumed that your father has all the skill, knowledge, and energy to do all the outside work without guidance or assistance, yet when he "fails" at another task that is not in his expected list of tasks it's a problem?

First off, I gave examples of indoor tasks he does just fine on his own, so he has the skill, knowledge, and energy to to plenty of things. And to be fair, my mom does plenty of outside work, but can't handle heavier tasks such as mowing the steep backyard or climbing ladders to clean gutters.

But cooking isn't hard. Taking inventory of groceries or other household items that need replenishing isn't hard. My dad isn't bad at abstract thought.

And that's the author's point. She didn't just want a clean bathroom for Mother's Day. She wanted a service to do it so neither she nor her husband would have to do it. They could both then do other tasks or play with the kids or whatever. She wanted her husband to do some of the mental heavy lifting (analogous to keeping a mental running inventory of items needed at the store) to call and get some quotes and decide on the best one. Maybe she needed to communicate it to him better (though we don't know that she didn't spell that out to him and he dropped the ball anyway), but that's her point.

If he had said that for Father's Day he wanted a garden service to come take care of the lawn and weeding and stuff, she is saying she would have called several companies to find prices for what he wanted done, and made a selection. She expected the same thing from him.


And therein lies the problem. Some people burn a lot of mental bandwidth exhaustively researching such services. Other people realize it's a farking housekeeping/lawn/whatever service that really doesn't need that much thought put into it.

From TFA she said "get a service if it isn't too expensive" he determined it was too expensive and focused on dealing with the primary thing she wanted the service for. There are a couple of points here: 1) Such services are always priced based on the region and, barring hiring an illegal alien or a random person, they going to be very close in price. 2) As far as I know, cleaning services as a rule do not pick up your shiat for you. You are expected to do that yourself so they can come in and efficiently dust/vacuum/mop/bathrooms, then GTFO to the next client. So her being annoyed that she had clean bathrooms but still had to pick up around the house would not have been resolved anyway.

There's a legitimate conversation to be had about what each person's level of cleanliness is and the division of labor. For example I'm the type that hates doing household chores, so I leave non-food/bathroom things for long stretches. BUT once I'm comitted to cleaning I clean the fark out of it. Basically I wait until it really needs cleaning and then do it well.

My soon to be ex and I had this tension where she'd want things done more often but way more half-assed than I would like them done. What I call "sorta clean." There's nothing wrong with either approach. But we had to work out where the line was for each of us.
 
2017-09-30 10:30:07 AM  

Smackledorfer: Adss2009: Every team I've been on has had a team lead who is responsible for the overall success of the team and does the mental work of synthesizing, reviewing, planning the overall work of the team. Good leaders encourage and develop the initiative of the team. But (usually) that leader is recognized as such, compensated better (either pay or benefits such as deference to guidance or whatever).
In a relationship and managing a household, the author argues, that the default is that the woman is the de facto leader responsible for doing all of the team leader work while both the man and woman are responsible for executing the required tasks. I mean, as said earlier in the thread, cooking, cleaning, etc. are not innate tasks that people are just "good" at. But, as I've often seen, women are responsible for them because they're women, not because they're any good at them. So, even from a young age, they're trained to do them and be responsible for them in a way that men aren't.

I mean, theres a whole social tripe about the dirty bachelor. Cleaning up and maintaining a household is accepted as just something guys aren't good at and they need a woman to straighten them out and get it worked out for them.

Anyways, if a couple wants to have that division of mental responsibilities, cool, go for it. But, in my opinion, men shouldn't be going into relationships expecting their partner to be responsible for doing the leadership tasks and then act dumb or offended and say their partner should have just communicated better about expectations.

There are also "entire social tripes" about blacks being stupid and lazy, Jews bring greedy, Muslims exploding all over the place, gays being incapable of monogamy, and hoo boy, even quite a few about women and their various alleged inferiorities. I do hope you aren't saying that the existence of a stereotype is evidence of something.

I've lived with multiple women over the years, both girlfriends and roommates, and my experience is that they are no cleaner or neater than the guys I've lived with.

My favorite line ever was, "I know you do the dishes and vacuum more than I do, but I hate how messy this place is, we need to clean more".

Me, "sounds good, but how about we start with you cleaning as much as I do, and see if that isn't a satisfactory level"

Or when my gf lost her job and didn't get one for over a year and couldn't figure out why I felt she should do more housework while I worked full time. Like seriously? Is it so wrong for me to come home from a ten hour+ shift and think you could have done two hours of mild housekeeping?

I hate unequal relationships for that reason. I don't know if I'll ever date someone without an active career again. Resentment breeds so quickly.

/Flushed tampons are fun to clean out of pipes.


I agree that a stereotype shouldn't be used as evidence. I was trying to get at the point the author made about how her kids (and other kids too) are being socialized already to accept that type of stereotype and male feigned helplessness as true, and I wasn't clear about that in my post, I should have been.

Also, I agree with you on the unequal relationships. They're no good, but I think there is a not insignificant portion of people that don't think they're in an unequal relationship and get upset when it's pointed out to them and try to placate their offended sensibilities instead of just trying to equalize their relationship.
Just my $.02
 
2017-09-30 10:34:06 AM  

draypresct: -he was doing the thing I had most wanted-giving me sparkling bathrooms without having to do it myself. Which is why he was frustrated when I ungratefully passed by, not looking at his handiwork
Good managers give feedback on the result; it seems like she didn't care about the result, only the process.


You clipped this of its context in order to intentionally distort the article. Allow me to restore it:
In his mind, he was doing the thing I had most wanted-giving me sparkling bathrooms without having to do it myself. Which is why he was frustrated when I ungratefully passed by, not looking at his handiwork as I put away his shoes, shirt and socks that had been left on the floor. I stumbled over the box of gift wrap... I had to get a kitchen chair and drag it into our closet so I could reach the shelf where it belonged.

That, in fact, wasn't the thing she had most wanted. It didn't achieve the result she wanted, so it's not that she didn't care about the result, but rather, her desired result - being able to relax - was unfulfilled.

You're misrepresenting the article in the same way that Weaver, AeroJockey, and AngryDragon were. It's not about some level of cleanliness she wants or whether it's "up to her standards", but rather that she would like the household tasks done without having to spend any thought or effort on it.The previous sentence, that you also clipped out, highlights this:
I was gifted a necklace for Mother's Day while my husband stole away to deep clean the bathrooms, leaving me to care for our children as the rest of the house fell into total disarray.

Had he hired a cleaning service, then she could be relaxing in the hammock with a drink and a book while he took care of the kids and house. Y'know, the sort of thing dads reasonably expect (and get) for father's day.

/that said, he seems clueless and she seems to be a terrible communicator, though hopefully, he reads this article
 
2017-09-30 10:38:15 AM  

ginandbacon: Both times he was "doing something" for her which ended up creating more work for her and got hurt and defensive when she was understandably pissed off. It's like cooking somebody dinner and destroying the kitchen in the process. Thanks?


Well said.

The second thing was how their son wants a farking medal for being a good boy and their daughter just does her chores and goes on about her business. At six and four...
There is plenty of data to back this up, women in domestic heterosexual relationships do the majority of housework, childcare, and eldercare.


Well, can you blame us? We've been trained that way since childhood.
 
2017-09-30 10:38:23 AM  
I love it when my wife gets mad at a mess that I didn't realize I made in the kitchen, but when I offer to take responsibility and clean it up because I am literally two feet away, she goes "no I'll just do it" and then proceeds to be grouchy about having to clean it up for a while afterwards.
 
2017-09-30 10:40:35 AM  

AntonChigger: I love it when my wife gets mad at a mess that I didn't realize I made in the kitchen, but when I offer to take responsibility and clean it up because I am literally two feet away, she goes "no I'll just do it" and then proceeds to be grouchy about having to clean it up for a while afterwards.


Maybe your wife is not grouchy about having to clean it up, but because you're so self-unaware that you don't even realize you're making messes.

/kind of the point of the article
 
2017-09-30 10:40:42 AM  
BTW, women initiate 69% of divorces...just sayin'.
 
2017-09-30 10:43:06 AM  

stainedglassdoll: AntonChigger: I love it when my wife gets mad at a mess that I didn't realize I made in the kitchen, but when I offer to take responsibility and clean it up because I am literally two feet away, she goes "no I'll just do it" and then proceeds to be grouchy about having to clean it up for a while afterwards.

Maybe your wife is not grouchy about having to clean it up, but because you're so self-unaware that you don't even realize you're making messes.

/kind of the point of the article


Yeah I'm workin on it, but it would be nice to be given the opportunity to take responsibility for my mistakes and fix them so I can improve myself.

/marriage is always a work in progress
 
2017-09-30 10:46:14 AM  

ginandbacon: BTW, women initiate 69% of divorces...just sayin'.


Probably for the 69% of marriages men initiate.
 
2017-09-30 10:46:40 AM  

AntonChigger: stainedglassdoll: AntonChigger: I love it when my wife gets mad at a mess that I didn't realize I made in the kitchen, but when I offer to take responsibility and clean it up because I am literally two feet away, she goes "no I'll just do it" and then proceeds to be grouchy about having to clean it up for a while afterwards.

Maybe your wife is not grouchy about having to clean it up, but because you're so self-unaware that you don't even realize you're making messes.

/kind of the point of the article

Yeah I'm workin on it, but it would be nice to be given the opportunity to take responsibility for my mistakes and fix them so I can improve myself.

/marriage is always a work in progress


Maybe don't "offer" to take care of it, or wait to be "given the opportunity", but just start doing it.
 
2017-09-30 10:47:23 AM  

Snarfangel: ginandbacon: BTW, women initiate 69% of divorces...just sayin'.

Probably for the 69% of marriages men initiate.


So the real key to a successful marriage is lots of 69s?
 
2017-09-30 10:48:26 AM  

Theaetetus: Snarfangel: ginandbacon: BTW, women initiate 69% of divorces...just sayin'.

Probably for the 69% of marriages men initiate.

So the real key to a successful marriage is lots of 69s?


It couldn't hurt.
 
2017-09-30 10:49:31 AM  
My husband also doesn't understand. He has two jobs when he's home, walk dog and mow the lawn. He's totally on board with dog, they go to the store and he buys a beer, then they go to the wooded area about 10 mins from the house and chase squirrels for an hour. The lawn is an absolute battle though. He doesn't understand that it has to be done at regular intervals, and he'll let it go for weeks. I explain that it needs to be done when it isn't raining, but he just says it's fine. It's not farking fine! It's a mess. What bugs me is when I break down and do it he gets all mad cause he was "getting to it". It takes me over an hour to get it done cause I have a bad back, it takes him about 20 mins. I do literally everything in the house, because I am a housewife and that is my job, I don't know why it's unreasonable for him to mow the stupid lawn without me being a biatch about it.
 
2017-09-30 10:50:19 AM  

draypresct: ginandbacon: I would probably have tried to make an analogy to what it's like when you have a new hire you have to train. It's exhausting. It takes longer to show someone how to do something than it does to just do it yourself, but it's worth it because eventually, they will be able to do the work on their own.

In the domestic sphere however, men rarely get to that do it themselves point.

I like your analogy (and your well-written post).

I would extend it a bit further, though. There exist good bosses and bad bosses, and training a new employee takes time, effort, and lots of communication. It sounds like that last element was a bit lacking, here.

There were also a few hints that this person might be micromanaging:
-since I control the budget
The budget is a pretty important part of a marriage; having one partner control it completely is usually a bad sign, although maybe he's just incompetent with money.

-What I wanted was for him to ask friends on Facebook for a recommendation, call four or five more services, do the emotional labor I would have done if the job had fallen to me
She's specifying the process, not the result. That's something a manager should only do with a brand-new, inexperienced employee.

-he was doing the thing I had most wanted-giving me sparkling bathrooms without having to do it myself. Which is why he was frustrated when I ungratefully passed by, not looking at his handiwork
Good managers give feedback on the result; it seems like she didn't care about the result, only the process.

-he called a single service, decided they were too expensive, and vowed to clean the bathrooms himself. He still gave me the choice, of course. He told me the high dollar amount of completing the cleaning services I requested
Unless he specifically picked an expensive service, it sounds like he assumed that any cleaning service he called would be within a reasonable range of each other, since they are competing with each other. When their price was much la ...


So the fact that she's in charge of the household and their budget means he shouldn't figure out how to make one day easier for her? 

It sounds like what you are saying is that she should lower her expectations.
 
2017-09-30 10:53:31 AM  

ginandbacon: So the fact that she's in charge of the household and their budget means he shouldn't figure out how to make one day easier for her?

It sounds like what you are saying is that she should lower her expectations.

img.fark.netView Full Size

 
2017-09-30 10:56:38 AM  
draypresct:

And I appreciate your kind words and perspective which I totally failed to communicate before. Just in case you can't read my mind. ;)
 
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