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(The Hill)   "As a 39-year military veteran, I think I know something about the flag," says Michael Hayden, four-star general and former director of both the CIA and NSA. "Put me down with Kaepernick"   ( thehill.com) divider line
    More: Hero, President Trump, Mike Tomlin, Pittsburgh Steelers, free speech, NFL players, anthem, pregame national anthem., American free speech  
•       •       •

2489 clicks; posted to Politics » on 27 Sep 2017 at 1:24 AM (3 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-09-26 10:24:20 PM  
Why should we believe this guy?  He's just a General, we have verifiably proof that Donald knows more then all the Generals.
 
2017-09-26 10:31:43 PM  
 Can we please stop pretending this is about "the flag" and not about cops murdering black people and a president who cozies up to white supremecists?
 
2017-09-26 10:37:26 PM  

hobbes0022: Why should we believe this guy?  He's just a General, we have verifiably proof that Donald knows more then all the Generals.


Trumpers dont.  He crossed Dear Leader. Within 24 hours they'll be sending death threats to his family.
 
2017-09-26 10:45:30 PM  
FTA: Still, this is a big country with a big heart and the issues he raised were both real and sincerely held. It didn't take much to just let this ride, even after some other NFL players joined in. Everything seemed to be within the tolerances of normal American political discourse and, certainly, American free speech.

That about sums it up. If you find this stuff deeply offensive, you should consider why.

/ spent my entire adult life being told I'm not "Patriotic" enough because I was against Iraq, voted Democratic, and don't mind seeing gay people happy.
// but, you know, fark your feelings.
 
2017-09-26 11:06:06 PM  

hobbes0022: Why should we believe this guy?  He's just a General, we have verifiably proof that Donald knows more then all the Generals.


Deep state commie antifa fascist lib. I'll bet he spent time in Europe, probably as a child when he was most vulnerable.
 
2017-09-26 11:45:54 PM  
So the team did not go out onto the field for "The Star-Spangled Banner."

Pittsburgh is a patriotic town. There was a lot of anger about the Steelers not showing up.


How DARE they break that sacred tradition that started in 2009!
 
2017-09-26 11:52:45 PM  

dv-ous: FTA: Still, this is a big country with a big heart and the issues he raised were both real and sincerely held. It didn't take much to just let this ride, even after some other NFL players joined in. Everything seemed to be within the tolerances of normal American political discourse and, certainly, American free speech.

That about sums it up. If you find this stuff deeply offensive, you should consider why.

/ spent my entire adult life being told I'm not "Patriotic" enough because I was against Iraq, voted Democratic, and don't mind seeing gay people happy.
// but, you know, fark your feelings.


I commented in another thread about this that this is the problem when you build up patriotism to a level that does not allow the slightest criticism, where "I think the US policy on X is not right" is taken as "I hate this country, the flag, apple pie and bald eagles".  If you refuse to even discuss or acknowledge flaws you make it impossible to fix or improve them.
 
2017-09-26 11:54:03 PM  
And put me down with Snowden.
 
2017-09-27 12:08:11 AM  
At some point, Trumpers are gonna have to face that the majority of Americans don't agree with them and despise their fuhrer. I think it won't matter to them. They've just enjoyed the cover of Trump Patriotism that excused their more vile natures.
 
2017-09-27 12:45:54 AM  

Tanqueray: And put me down with Snowden.


Saying that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying that you don't care about freedom of speech because you have nothing to say. It's a deeply antisocial principle, because rights are not just individual, they're collective. And what may not have value to you today, may have value to an entire, you know, population, an entire people, or an entire way of life tomorrow. And if you don't stand up for it, then who will?

img.fark.net

"And what does that mean, when you realize that the values that you stood up to defend - that you believed in so much that you dedicated your life to - are actually being suubverted by your very actions? You need to find a way out."

Welcome to the party, General./and to the extent that said surveillance ends up enabling Mueller to make an informed decision within the bounds of law, you also have my belated thanks, General.
//If you don't stand up for it, then who will?
///whatever your politics, you can dance to it. And we are gonna get so much danceable music outta the next few years.
 
2017-09-27 12:48:13 AM  

sigdiamond2000: Can we please stop pretending this is about "the flag" and not about cops murdering black people and a president who cozies up to white supremecists?


But if the trumpers can't turn this into a distraction over patriotism, then they'll have to confront the reality that we have some serious issues with race and income distribution in this country....and the trumpers would rather eat their own livers than admit they've been living a lie for most of their lives.

nope.  wave the flag, thump the bible.  that's their plan for dealing with everything.  And if anyone gets in their faces, they'll wave their flags even HARDER and preach bible stuff even LOUDER.  honestly, its like dealing with a loopy religious cult.  they're not even pretending to pay attention anymore, they just scream and rage puke.
 
2017-09-27 01:20:49 AM  

Twilight Farkle: Tanqueray: And put me down with Snowden.


Saying that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying that you don't care about freedom of speech because you have nothing to say. It's a deeply antisocial principle, because rights are not just individual, they're collective. And what may not have value to you today, may have value to an entire, you know, population, an entire people, or an entire way of life tomorrow. And if you don't stand up for it, then who will?

"And what does that mean, when you realize that the values that you stood up to defend - that you believed in so much that you dedicated your life to - are actually being suubverted by your very actions? You need to find a way out."


Snowden and Kaepernick are a lot alike. They're the ones who risked everything to try and shed light on powerful forces in society.
 
2017-09-27 01:31:27 AM  
Kneeling has implied fealty for as far back as I can remember, and much further going to at least the middle ages.  Why is that such a threatening act to these people?
 
2017-09-27 01:32:05 AM  

hobbes0022: Why should we believe this guy?  He's just a General, we have verifiably proof that Donald knows more then all the Generals.


As someone who's been to military school, I can laugh my ass off agree. Hardcore, Marine Core, sapien fries, do or die!
 
2017-09-27 01:34:46 AM  

Mister Buttons: Kneeling has implied fealty for as far back as I can remember, and much further going to at least the middle ages.  Why is that such a threatening act to these people?


why is ANY of this offensive to the trumpers?  a local activists hereabouts burned a nazi flag and the local trumpers hit the gotdamn roof.  when I asked them why they were so upset, they just hurled insults and threatened to beat me up.

I don't get it man.  I really dont'.  all that rage and hate with nowhere to go....eventually, the trumpers are going to just start going on psychotic rampages.
 
2017-09-27 01:36:07 AM  
img.fark.net

HOW DARE YOU DISRESPECT THE QUEEN!!!

/I have no idea if that is a queen, it was the best GIS gave me.
//Lay off me Fark history/art nerds.
///Threesies
 
2017-09-27 01:36:29 AM  
I mean, cool, I'm glad you're with Kaepernick,  but were you with him before his cause was obfuscated by right wing outrage bots screaming" OUR FLAG WHARGARBBBBLLLLLL *fart*"? Because it sounds like that's the part that got to you, and while that is admirable on some level and you absolutely should defend his right to protest, if you're not on board with the reason for the protest then you're still part of the problem.
 
2017-09-27 01:37:24 AM  
It's not like they disrespected a Confederate flag, so why the outrage?
 
2017-09-27 01:37:26 AM  
If Kaepernick was on his left knee, that proves he is a Commie!
 
2017-09-27 01:38:55 AM  
Also, you know what's REALLY disrespectful to this nation's flag? Your f*cking 'tard boner over preserving and flying the flag of a rebel nation that waged war against America.
 
2017-09-27 01:40:40 AM  
It's not like they disrespected a Russian flag, so why the outrage?
pamplinmedia.com
 
2017-09-27 01:40:54 AM  
Now that everyone is on Kap's side does that mean he won't be getting blacklisted by NFL teams anymore?

/Not holding my breath
 
2017-09-27 01:43:44 AM  
It's not like they disrespected a ... nope, I can't do it.
img.fark.net
 
2017-09-27 01:45:12 AM  
so a group of people who honor the confederate rebellion flag are now demanding everyone respect the US flag and screaming about how unpatriotic everyone who 'takes a knee' in protest.

hmm.

make up your minds guys.  are you confederates or americans?
 
2017-09-27 01:45:23 AM  

JohnnyApocalypse: At some point, Trumpers are gonna have to face that the majority of Americans don't agree with them and despise their fuhrer. I think it won't matter to them. They've just enjoyed the cover of Trump Patriotism that excused their more vile natures.


Hell, not even Trump coming out and saying his beloved healthcare plan would hurt his voters the most swayed them in the least, nor did him admitting the "Lock her up" spiel was nothing more than a ruse to get their votes. Why would they care now when their god-king pissed on the hopes they pined for?


Trump admits his healthcare plan will hurt his own voters
Youtube Bou62clLun0


The 35% he has left is made up of the hands and knees sycophants who couldn't care less what he does (especially if it gives them the illusion that they can let their most primitive bigotries to run wild with repercussions), the people who won't admit they made a mistake by voting for him/"give him time and stop being mean" crowd, and the Neo Nazis. Very very little could possibly get that merry little band of glove-smelling jingoists to budge.
 
2017-09-27 01:51:34 AM  

Tanqueray: Snowden and Kaepernick are a lot alike. They're the ones who risked everything to try and shed light on powerful forces in society.


There's an order of magnitude or five between a largely meaningless symbolic gesture as a way of using your platform to draw attention to a political issue, then walking away with millions upon millions of dollars and the opportunity to cash in for a few million more... and giving up your literal home and pitting yourself against the world's most powerful and least-morally-fettered military and intelligence superpower in order to do something practical to actually strike a blow in the defense of the oppressed with real practical value.

I mean, I'm on Kaepernick's side of his specific dispute, too, but maybe let's not escalate a discussion of our favorite Garfield cartoon to direct equivalence to the Mona Lisa and Shakespeare, yeah?  The football thing doesn't even reach the level of civil disobedience, this is literally just a polite argument at this point, if that.
 
2017-09-27 01:53:33 AM  

The Department of Inadvisably Applied Magic: I mean, cool, I'm glad you're with Kaepernick,  but were you with him before his cause was obfuscated by right wing outrage bots screaming" OUR FLAG WHARGARBBBBLLLLLL *fart*"? Because it sounds like that's the part that got to you, and while that is admirable on some level and you absolutely should defend his right to protest, if you're not on board with the reason for the protest then you're still part of the problem.


Fark exclusionary idealism. The right to peacefully protest is extremely important. If you had any idea about history you might recognize that even the most important protestors are widely dispised at the time they are active. After Kent State the majority of this county thought those students deserved what they got. If everyone magically knew change had to happen and how, we wouldn't have this problem but that's not reality. It takes time to make people realize wrongs in the world and they rarely appreciate their lives being interrupted by the reminder. That doesn't stop change from happening or the importance of  protecting the rights that keep that process going.
 
2017-09-27 02:05:04 AM  

OptimisticCynicism: The Department of Inadvisably Applied Magic: I mean, cool, I'm glad you're with Kaepernick,  but were you with him before his cause was obfuscated by right wing outrage bots screaming" OUR FLAG WHARGARBBBBLLLLLL *fart*"? Because it sounds like that's the part that got to you, and while that is admirable on some level and you absolutely should defend his right to protest, if you're not on board with the reason for the protest then you're still part of the problem.

Fark exclusionary idealism. The right to peacefully protest is extremely important. If you had any idea about history you might recognize that even the most important protestors are widely dispised at the time they are active. After Kent State the majority of this county thought those students deserved what they got. If everyone magically knew change had to happen and how, we wouldn't have this problem but that's not reality. It takes time to make people realize wrongs in the world and they rarely appreciate their lives being interrupted by the reminder. That doesn't stop change from happening or the importance of  protecting the rights that keep that process going.


How does that have ANYTHING at all to do with what I said? Is there still a problem? Yes. Is that problem being acknowledged? No. Is it being obfuscated by this, "Hurr durr, our flag," bullsh*t? Yes? Did I say this guy should fark off? No. But I did state, and will forever state THAT IF ANYONE IS ON KAEPERNICK'S SIDE BECAUSE OF THE FLAG ISSUE BUT NOT ON THE POLICE VIOLENCE ISSUE, THEY ARE STILL PART OF THE PROBLEM. No shiat change takes time and no shiat people's point of view can change over time, but I'm not gonna congratulate a motherf*cker for getting it half right WHEN PEOPLE ARE F*CKING DYING because of the half he gets wrong. There's no goddamn participation trophy here.
 
2017-09-27 02:07:23 AM  

sigdiamond2000: Can we please stop pretending this is about "the flag" and not about cops murdering black people and a president who cozies up to white supremecists?


While I agree with the point, Kaepernick did himself call out the flag and country in his original explanation. So that angle of the vitriol wasn't fabricated.

I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color
 
2017-09-27 02:08:40 AM  

The Department of Inadvisably Applied Magic: How does that have ANYTHING at all to do with what I said? Is there still a problem? Yes. Is that problem being acknowledged? No. Is it being obfuscated by this, "Hurr durr, our flag," bullsh*t? Yes? Did I say this guy should fark off? No. But I did state, and will forever state THAT IF ANYONE IS ON KAEPERNICK'S SIDE BECAUSE OF THE FLAG ISSUE BUT NOT ON THE POLICE VIOLENCE ISSUE, THEY ARE STILL PART OF THE PROBLEM. No shiat change takes time and no shiat people's point of view can change over time, but I'm not gonna congratulate a motherf*cker for getting it half right WHEN PEOPLE ARE F*CKING DYING because of the half he gets wrong. There's no goddamn participation trophy here.


when your obsession  with ideological purity starts to hamper your end goals, then you might have a problem.  I honestly don't care if someone wakes up late to this and starts backing off supporting trump.  so long as they get there, I don't care how it happened, why or when.  just so long as they wake the f*ck up, realize that this country is in some serious shiat what needs fixing, and are willing to listen and not assume everyone brown is their enemy then i'm cool with their support.

but you go on your purity crusade, let me know how that works out for ya!
 
2017-09-27 02:17:22 AM  
Pittsburgh is a patriotic town. There was a lot of anger about the Steelers not showing up.

I was angry too. They always seem to play like garbage against below .500 teams for some reason.
 
2017-09-27 02:20:29 AM  

sigdiamond2000: Can we please stop pretending this is about "the flag" and not about cops murdering black people and a president who cozies up to white supremecists?


Of course it is about the flag to an extent, Kaepernick and other players chose to behave in a manner they knew would be controversial because they knew that would get attention, and the point of that type of protest is to get attention (to police brutality and general racial injustice, in this case). It had nothing to do with Trump until he inserted himself.
 
2017-09-27 02:21:16 AM  

skyotter: It's not like they disrespected a Russian flag, so why the outrage?
[pamplinmedia.com image 800x591]


She looks like a cross between the old lady from Poltergeist, a Mars Attacks alien, and a Battletoads villain.
 
2017-09-27 02:22:16 AM  

sigdiamond2000: Can we please stop pretending this is about "the flag" and not about cops murdering black people and a president who cozies up to white supremecists?


And trip up their carefully constructed narrative designed to silence all criticism?
 
2017-09-27 02:22:47 AM  

NobleHam: It had nothing to do with Trump until he inserted himself.


I still don't get why trump figure it was good for him to get involved in any of this.  there was NO way this was going to help him.  it fails even as a distraction.
 
2017-09-27 02:27:38 AM  

Weaver95: NobleHam: It had nothing to do with Trump until he inserted himself.

I still don't get why trump figure it was good for him to get involved in any of this.  there was NO way this was going to help him.  it fails even as a distraction.


When you're a raging narcissist everything looks like a good idea.
 
2017-09-27 02:35:44 AM  

Flappyhead: Weaver95: NobleHam: It had nothing to do with Trump until he inserted himself.

I still don't get why trump figure it was good for him to get involved in any of this.  there was NO way this was going to help him.  it fails even as a distraction.

When you're a raging narcissist everything looks like a good idea.


Somewhere in there though is a narcissist's constant need for attention, the constant need for acclaim and a psychopathic hatred of any slight or criticism.

"More alone than ever under the fierce vigilance of an escort whose mission didn't seem to be to protect him but to watch over him, the regime wasn't being sustained by hope or conformity or even by terror, but by the pure inertia of an ancient and irreparable disillusion. 'Go out into the street and look truth in the face, your excellency, we're on the final curve'. For the only livable life he knew was one of show and spectacle" -Autumn Of The Patriarch (Gabriel Garcia Marquez novel about a dictator going through a long, drawn out nervous breakdown)
 
2017-09-27 02:36:24 AM  

Weaver95: Mister Buttons: Kneeling has implied fealty for as far back as I can remember, and much further going to at least the middle ages.  Why is that such a threatening act to these people?

why is ANY of this offensive to the trumpers?  a local activists hereabouts burned a nazi flag and the local trumpers hit the gotdamn roof.  when I asked them why they were so upset, they just hurled insults and threatened to beat me up.

I don't get it man.  I really dont'.  all that rage and hate with nowhere to go....eventually, the trumpers are going to just start going on psychotic rampages.


I kind of reminds me of the documentary "Berkeley in the 60s" but with the right being mad instead of the left. At the end if you didn't 100% agree with the groupthink you were the enemy.
 
2017-09-27 02:36:59 AM  
Stop pretending anyone's military service has anything to do with my constitutional rights or that wearing a uniform makes you my moral authority on any issue.

Nice that Hayden agrees with me, but those military that don't agree with me seem to think all they have to do all day is spout "I served, I served" and that means they're in some sort of position to rule over me in daily life.

It doesn't.

I don't give a fark if you fought for my freedom abroad if you're going to come home and fight against it. That uniform means absolutely nothing for issues like this. If you became enamored with a piece of cloth, that's your business. Good for you. You don't get to tell me I have to spend my life buying the flag flowers and taking it out for date night before a good hard shag because of it.
 
2017-09-27 02:39:47 AM  
So how long until conservatives begin calling this veteran a traitor?
 
2017-09-27 02:43:08 AM  

Weaver95: NobleHam: It had nothing to do with Trump until he inserted himself.

I still don't get why trump figure it was good for him to get involved in any of this.  there was NO way this was going to help him.  it fails even as a distraction.


You seem to think he thought about it. That's not his style.
 
2017-09-27 02:46:08 AM  

Truffle Kerfuffle: So how long until conservatives begin calling this veteran a traitor?


funny you should mention that....my local trumpers automatically assume anyone who's supporting the NFL players right to protest cannot be any sort of veteran.  well, i'm a vet and protest away says I....and immediately every damn last trumper accused me of lying about my military service record.

f*cktards.  they're so full of hate they don't know what to do with it anymore.
 
2017-09-27 02:47:23 AM  
I've got enough stress and enough problems in my day to day life. I really don't need a president who is exhausting and dangerous. I don't need it. I don't want it. I am not enjoying it.
BAD RATINGS!  POTUS should STFU.
 
2017-09-27 02:48:31 AM  
Because soldiers are the only ones who do service for the country and thus the only ones qualified to comment on "the flag"?  Fark that and fark anyone who is trying to frame protest as unAmerican.  You don't get more American than throwing your middle finger at America and calling it out on its bullshiat.
 
2017-09-27 02:53:24 AM  

Jim_Callahan: Tanqueray: Snowden and Kaepernick are a lot alike. They're the ones who risked everything to try and shed light on powerful forces in society.

There's an order of magnitude or five between a largely meaningless symbolic gesture as a way of using your platform to draw attention to a political issue, then walking away with millions upon millions of dollars and the opportunity to cash in for a few million more... and giving up your literal home and pitting yourself against the world's most powerful and least-morally-fettered military and intelligence superpower in order to do something practical to actually strike a blow in the defense of the oppressed with real practical value.

I mean, I'm on Kaepernick's side of his specific dispute, too, but maybe let's not escalate a discussion of our favorite Garfield cartoon to direct equivalence to the Mona Lisa and Shakespeare, yeah?  The football thing doesn't even reach the level of civil disobedience, this is literally just a polite argument at this point, if that.


Ok, I'm with you. But carrying that logic of magnitude forward, doesn't that make Hayden a bigger and more consequential villain than Trump?
 
2017-09-27 02:54:54 AM  
Also this feels like an appropriate thread for this.

img.fark.net
 
2017-09-27 02:58:42 AM  

Weaver95: Truffle Kerfuffle: So how long until conservatives begin calling this veteran a traitor?

funny you should mention that....my local trumpers automatically assume anyone who's supporting the NFL players right to protest cannot be any sort of veteran.  well, i'm a vet and protest away says I....and immediately every damn last trumper accused me of lying about my military service record.

f*cktards.  they're so full of hate they don't know what to do with it anymore.


Years ago I had a teacher get after me because I wouldn't stand for the pledge.  He said something about how I was disrespecting all of his friends who got killed in Vietnam.  I told him that they died protecting all of our freedoms, not just the popular ones.
Eventually I just showed up late every day to class and problem solved.
 
2017-09-27 02:59:40 AM  

Flappyhead: Also this feels like an appropriate thread for this.

[img.fark.net image 425x425]


That sums up anything I'd have to say about this.
 
2017-09-27 03:18:04 AM  

Carter Pewterschmidt: dv-ous: FTA: Still, this is a big country with a big heart and the issues he raised were both real and sincerely held. It didn't take much to just let this ride, even after some other NFL players joined in. Everything seemed to be within the tolerances of normal American political discourse and, certainly, American free speech.

That about sums it up. If you find this stuff deeply offensive, you should consider why.

/ spent my entire adult life being told I'm not "Patriotic" enough because I was against Iraq, voted Democratic, and don't mind seeing gay people happy.
// but, you know, fark your feelings.

I commented in another thread about this that this is the problem when you build up patriotism to a level that does not allow the slightest criticism, where "I think the US policy on X is not right" is taken as "I hate this country, the flag, apple pie and bald eagles".  If you refuse to even discuss or acknowledge flaws you make it impossible to fix or improve them.


And if you don't see those things as flaws, but as positives, it allows you to demonize people who point out the flaws when they see them.

Neat, huh?

/authoritarianism - how does it work?
 
2017-09-27 03:34:40 AM  

Weaver95: NobleHam: It had nothing to do with Trump until he inserted himself.

I still don't get why trump figure it was good for him to get involved in any of this.  there was NO way this was going to help him.  it fails even as a distraction.



Trump is the kind of guy who thinks the first thing you do when you go to prison* is start a fight with the biggest baddest motherfarker you can find.

He's beating his chest and grunting that he's King shiat of Deplorable Mountain:  when he slaps around the ENN EFF ELL with impunity, what chance does some news network or Senator have of standing against him?

This is the same thing that worked for him during the election. Take an American sacred cow, turn it into hamburger while the rest of America watches in apparent impotence, shiat it onto a plate, and if people eat it up, they belong to him completely.

*or a conference room, or a Krispy Kreme, or whatever

/also: don't underestimate the degree to which this quivering lump of id is still smarting from his USFL humiliation
 
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