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(LA Times)   First Trump fires Mueller. Then he climbs backward out the window into Outside Over There   ( latimes.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, President of the United States, Trump, Mueller, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Mueller investigation, President, Trump likely fears, Mueller's appointment  
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5466 clicks; posted to Politics » on 22 Sep 2017 at 5:03 AM (11 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-09-22 02:57:33 AM  
that was a profoundly optimistic article.  for what little its worth, I think that if/when Trump fires Mueller to avoid impeachment, this country *will* implode.  trump is not a popular man, and he's already lost the support of wall street elites and many republicans who pass for senior leadership in D.C.  Should trump fire Mueller, I suspect things would get immediately bloody and go rapidly downhill from there.
 
2017-09-22 03:09:18 AM  
We think that autocratic interludes are impossible here

Speak for yourself.
 
2017-09-22 05:07:22 AM  
Yeah I don't see that ending well for Trump.
 
2017-09-22 05:08:40 AM  
He starts a war somewhere. Seems as obvious as night follows day to me.
 
2017-09-22 05:16:01 AM  

lookheremyman: He starts a war somewhere. Seems as obvious as night follows day to me.


if trump were to start a war now, everyone would assume (rightly, IMHO) that he was just trying to avoid impeachment.  we'd tear ourselves apart over it
 
2017-09-22 05:18:34 AM  

lookheremyman: He starts a war somewhere. Seems as obvious as night follows day to me.


Yeah... not gonna happen.

I mean, I'm not doubting that he'll try that as part of the "throw everything against the wall and hope something sticks" panic at the end as he's being pulled under, but actually starting a war requires political capital that he never had in the first place, the competence to issue an illegal order subtly worded and believably justified enough that the military will actually comply with it, and  the deal-making prowess to get congress to go along with it after the fact.

As much as we enjoy mocking the second Bush presidency and as shiat as it was overall, look at what W had to pull off to get his  illegal war, how many solid cons and tenuous deals he had to pull off even with the general attitude of the USA already leaning strongly in his favor.  Trump doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of ordering military action and having it actually happen.
 
2017-09-22 05:20:25 AM  
it will seem to many a little less certain that the rule of law will win out even against the rich and powerful

The rich and powerful have been kicking the rule of law's ass since day one as far as I can tell.
 
2017-09-22 05:29:02 AM  

Jim_Callahan: Trump doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of ordering military action and having it actually happen.


he might not have to tho.  just ordering the attack would trigger a massive backlash here in the states.  chaos is what trump WANTS.
 
2017-09-22 05:32:26 AM  

Weaver95: lookheremyman: He starts a war somewhere. Seems as obvious as night follows day to me.

if trump were to start a war now, everyone would assume (rightly, IMHO) that he was just trying to avoid impeachment.  we'd tear ourselves apart over it


While I would LIKE to believe that it would be seen as the craven dodge it is, I honestly suspect that  most of our government would back away from talk of investigation simply because of the amount of negative press that the media would make. The GOP would stop because of vicious backlash from their rabid, mouthbreathing base, the dems would back off because they wouldn't want to look like they weren't backing the president and military in wartime.

If anything like our present right wing noise machine had existed in the mid-70s, I don't think Watergate would have had the same outcome.  I think that is at least part of the reason it exists now.
 
2017-09-22 05:41:00 AM  
I didn't live through Watergate (I'm 42.)

So I guess everyone gets to live through something like this?

At least Nixon did stuff as President.  EPA, China.  How important his role was, eh... at least he clocked in and did the presidenting job.  Usually.  Until he couldn't anymore.  At which point he quit so he wouldn't be handcuffed.
 
2017-09-22 05:47:57 AM  
He could start lobbing nukes at Best Korea. That would be enough distraction.
 
2017-09-22 05:49:10 AM  

EvilEgg: He could start lobbing nukes at Best Korea. That would be enough distraction.


or even just conventional weapons would do the trick.  Trump could easily order a drone strike on Nkorea's missile launch sites.
 
2017-09-22 06:05:23 AM  
FTA: As for a more definitive rebuke such as impeachment, for now it is a barely conceivable fantasy. Even if Democrats were to gain control of the House in the 2018 elections, chances are remote that Democrats in the Senate would be able to muster the 67 votes needed to convict and remove. The trial would be a sort of opéra bouffe with Trump at the center at his most melodramatic. And when Trump is acquitted, he will find a cheap salesman's way to declare victory, to the exasperation of his critics.

This is true (the senate isn't going to impeach even if a tape leaks of Trump offering to give Alaska to Putin in exchange for being the big spoon for once), but it is incredibly farked up that this is true. Nixon had to resign to avoid impeachment, back when the GOP valued country ahead of party.
 
2017-09-22 06:06:40 AM  

downstairs: I didn't *live* through Watergate (I'm 42.)

So I guess everyone gets to *live* through something like this?


YouKeepUsingThatWord.jpg
 
2017-09-22 06:09:14 AM  

Weaver95: Trump could easily order a drone strike on Nkorea's missile launch sites.


It doesn't come up all that often for the same reason that we don't usually openly discuss the US's long and storied history of jury nullification, but there's a really, really strong tradition in the military of straight-up refusing to follow obviously illegal or even just politically self-destructive orders in the US military, usually followed by everyone just pretending they never heard any such order.

The order to launch the nukes during the Cold War happened at least five times on the US's side alone, and that's just the incidents we know about.  You can tell how many times the order was followed by everyone in the chain of command by the fact that we're currently breathing air with a composition that doesn't kill a human instantly.  I'm not saying that the fundamental goodness of humanity always wins out or anything, but the military is full of people of average or near-average intelligence and enough education to read the newspaper occasionally, which is more than enough for them to automatically file that order under "ways to commit suicide and take everyone I've ever known and loved with me".
 
2017-09-22 06:10:17 AM  

Weaver95: lookheremyman: He starts a war somewhere. Seems as obvious as night follows day to me.

if trump were to start a war now, everyone would assume (rightly, IMHO) that he was just trying to avoid impeachment.  we'd tear ourselves apart over it


Depending on who he starts a war with, we may not even exist as a society long enough to impeach him.  He's got a few irons in the fire, as it were.
 
2017-09-22 06:14:12 AM  
Weaver95:  ...Should trump fire Mueller, I suspect things would get immediately bloody and go rapidly downhill from there.

I hate to say it, but that might be the best thing that could happen.  ...Tree of liberty ...blood of revolution, and all that.
 
2017-09-22 06:30:06 AM  

Cache: Weaver95:  ...Should trump fire Mueller, I suspect things would get immediately bloody and go rapidly downhill from there.

I hate to say it, but that might be the best thing that could happen.  ...Tree of liberty ...blood of revolution, and all that.


its REALLY bad for property values tho.  plus, I likely won't be able to see the next avengers movie, what with all the civil war and whatnot going on.
 
2017-09-22 06:35:40 AM  
He cannot fire him. He has no method to fire him. He can try to order someone else to fire him but it is hard to imagine that order being followed. Even the dumb racist POS currently in charge at the DOJ must have some sense of self-preservation, so  he wouldnt try to 'un-recuse' himself to save Trump. Rosenstein is no damned way doing it and has said so. Trump could start firing people at the DOJ till he finds a patsy but that would not end well at all.
 
2017-09-22 06:39:02 AM  

Weaver95: Jim_Callahan: Trump doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of ordering military action and having it actually happen.

he might not have to tho.  just ordering the attack would trigger a massive backlash here in the states.  chaos is what trump WANTS.


No. What Trump wants is to see himself on TV. If it's because people are praising him, so much the better. He wants to see large groups of people cheering and whistling and chanting. He wants people kissing his ass 24/7. If he has that, he doesn't care about anything else.

Everything he has done reinforces this.

That horrible toad's head is empty of everything except itself.
 
2017-09-22 06:39:22 AM  

gaspode: He cannot fire him. He has no method to fire him. He can try to order someone else to fire him but it is hard to imagine that order being followed. Even the dumb racist POS currently in charge at the DOJ must have some sense of self-preservation, so  he wouldnt try to 'un-recuse' himself to save Trump. Rosenstein is no damned way doing it and has said so. Trump could start firing people at the DOJ till he finds a patsy but that would not end well at all.


Nixon did it.  Trump won't fare any better (and likely much worse) if he did it.  The sequels always suck.
 
2017-09-22 06:41:04 AM  

Weaver95: Cache: Weaver95:  ...Should trump fire Mueller, I suspect things would get immediately bloody and go rapidly downhill from there.

I hate to say it, but that might be the best thing that could happen.  ...Tree of liberty ...blood of revolution, and all that.

its REALLY bad for property values tho.  plus, I likely won't be able to see the next avengers movie, what with all the civil war and whatnot going on.


True, but it would make for good TV.
 
2017-09-22 06:43:38 AM  
Reagan invaded Grenada days after the Marine barracks bombing in Lebanon. We won the Grenada war in short order and some pressure was taken off why precautions weren't taken to protect our troops in Lebanon when the Intel from the area indicated some action was going to be taken against the Marines.

Trump will likely invade Barbuda.
 
2017-09-22 06:43:43 AM  

downstairs: I didn't live through Watergate (I'm 42.)

So I guess everyone gets to live through something like this?

At least Nixon did stuff as President.  EPA, China.  How important his role was, eh... at least he clocked in and did the presidenting job.  Usually.  Until he couldn't anymore.  At which point he quit so he wouldn't be handcuffed.


Meanwhile, Trump's just in it to scam as much money out of the taxpayers as possible before he has to quit.  At least Nixon didn't get rich off of it.
 
2017-09-22 06:45:44 AM  

gaspode: He cannot fire him. He has no method to fire him. He can try to order someone else to fire him but it is hard to imagine that order being followed. Even the dumb racist POS currently in charge at the DOJ must have some sense of self-preservation, so  he wouldnt try to 'un-recuse' himself to save Trump. Rosenstein is no damned way doing it and has said so. Trump could start firing people at the DOJ till he finds a patsy but that would not end well at all.


He could try but it would probably take a lot of firings.  Rachel Brand is the third-highest ranking and, last I checked, only political appointment that might fire Mueller.  If she declines, the rest are Obama-era holdovers and career staff who would be disinclined to remove Mueller.

Donnie wouldn't be able to get a replacement for Jefferson Beauregard of Rosenstein without Congress extracting promises not to remove Mueller
 
2017-09-22 06:47:58 AM  
Firing Mueller wouldn't stop the probe.  It is no longer that easy.  Mueller knows he will be fired if he hits too close to home, and so has built a team that can survive his loss.  Trump would have to fire the whole team.

But Mueller has anticipated that too, and has been coordinating with independent teams at the IRS, the FBI, and the State of NY.  Trump would need to stop the IRS and FBI probes too, and bury the NY one in Constitutional challenges.

And if Trump did all that he'd be building an ironclad obstruction of justice case against himself.  It will be blatantly obvious what he is doing and why.
 
2017-09-22 06:49:07 AM  

gaspode: He cannot fire him. He has no method to fire him. He can try to order someone else to fire him but it is hard to imagine that order being followed. Even the dumb racist POS currently in charge at the DOJ must have some sense of self-preservation, so  he wouldnt try to 'un-recuse' himself to save Trump. Rosenstein is no damned way doing it and has said so. Trump could start firing people at the DOJ till he finds a patsy but that would not end well at all.


According to one supporter I know, he can and should fire him. Reason: he's the president, and has final say over his employees. Apparently the government should be run like an at-will business, according to some.
 
2017-09-22 06:49:19 AM  

JK8Fan: Reagan invaded Grenada days after the Marine barracks bombing in Lebanon. We won the Grenada war in short order and some pressure was taken off why precautions weren't taken to protect our troops in Lebanon when the Intel from the area indicated some action was going to be taken against the Marines.

Trump will likely invade Barbuda.


I have to take issue with the phrase, "we won the Grenada war." It's like seeing a heavywieght boxer stomp a mouse and saying, "He won that bout."

It wasn't a war, it was a military adventure. It was a propaganda event. It was plain murder for political gain.

Like several other Reagan policies.
 
2017-09-22 06:55:52 AM  

Jim_Callahan: Weaver95: Trump could easily order a drone strike on Nkorea's missile launch sites.

It doesn't come up all that often for the same reason that we don't usually openly discuss the US's long and storied history of jury nullification, but there's a really, really strong tradition in the military of straight-up refusing to follow obviously illegal or even just politically self-destructive orders in the US military, usually followed by everyone just pretending they never heard any such order.

The order to launch the nukes during the Cold War happened at least five times on the US's side alone, and that's just the incidents we know about.  You can tell how many times the order was followed by everyone in the chain of command by the fact that we're currently breathing air with a composition that doesn't kill a human instantly.  I'm not saying that the fundamental goodness of humanity always wins out or anything, but the military is full of people of average or near-average intelligence and enough education to read the newspaper occasionally, which is more than enough for them to automatically file that order under "ways to commit suicide and take everyone I've ever known and loved with me".


I've never heard that the US ordered 5 launches, and I've read more than one book by Richard Rhodes.  Got a citation for that?
 
2017-09-22 06:57:08 AM  

Scanty Em: That horrible toad's head is empty of everything except itself.


Remember the scene in Being John Malkovich where Malkovich entered the portal in his own head?  Swap out Malkovich for Trump and that's the mental image I've just been assaulted with.
 
2017-09-22 06:58:04 AM  

Scanty Em: JK8Fan: Reagan invaded Grenada days after the Marine barracks bombing in Lebanon. We won the Grenada war in short order and some pressure was taken off why precautions weren't taken to protect our troops in Lebanon when the Intel from the area indicated some action was going to be taken against the Marines.

Trump will likely invade Barbuda.

I have to take issue with the phrase, "we won the Grenada war." It's like seeing a heavywieght boxer stomp a mouse and saying, "He won that bout."

It wasn't a war, it was a military adventure. It was a propaganda event. It was plain murder for political gain.

Like several other Reagan policies.


Disagrees.

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-09-22 06:59:26 AM  

Jim_Callahan: The order to launch the nukes during the Cold War happened at least five times on the US's side alone


Discussion of it maybe, but order? Gonna need a citation on that one.
 
2017-09-22 07:00:02 AM  

Jim_Callahan: It doesn't come up all that often for the same reason that we don't usually openly discuss the US's long and storied history of jury nullification, but there's a really, really strong tradition in the military of straight-up refusing to follow obviously illegal or even just politically self-destructive orders in the US military, usually followed by everyone just pretending they never heard any such order.


Listen buddy, you aren't going to get many "Smart" votes around here by going against the grain of doom, gloom, and hopelessness.
 
2017-09-22 07:03:49 AM  
After Trump, it will seem to many a little less certain that the rule of law will win out even against the rich and powerful; that government is transparent; that the free press can hold elected officials accountable; and that leaders cannot profit from government service.

Who the hell ever thought any of that was true? Even as a child it was blatantly obvious to me that "he who has the gold makes the rules" wasn't just a joke.
 
2017-09-22 07:06:36 AM  

Jim_Callahan: lookheremyman: He starts a war somewhere. Seems as obvious as night follows day to me.

Yeah... not gonna happen.

I mean, I'm not doubting that he'll try that as part of the "throw everything against the wall and hope something sticks" panic at the end as he's being pulled under, but actually starting a war requires political capital that he never had in the first place, the competence to issue an illegal order subtly worded and believably justified enough that the military will actually comply with it, and  the deal-making prowess to get congress to go along with it after the fact.

As much as we enjoy mocking the second Bush presidency and as shiat as it was overall, look at what W had to pull off to get his  illegal war, how many solid cons and tenuous deals he had to pull off even with the general attitude of the USA already leaning strongly in his favor.  Trump doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of ordering military action and having it actually happen.


Perhaps you haven't paid attention to the news recently, there is this place called North Korea which has a leader only slightly crazier than Mr Trump.  Recently with their chest puffing antics (and the news media's desperate attempts to make it more than it is) have gotten Mr Trump's attention.  If Mr Trump picks North Korea and the media goes along with it, political capital be damned, he'll have popular support.  Political capital can cave to popular support.
 
2017-09-22 07:06:53 AM  

Jim_Callahan: The order to launch the nukes during the Cold War happened at least five times on the US's side alone, and that's just the incidents we know about.


Citation Needed.

5 times during the Cold War (i.e. 1946 though 1991), the POTUS ordered a nuclear attack, fully authenticated and the actual launch order was given, and the military just. . .ignored the order?

You do realize that Wargames and "Turn your key, Sir!" was NOT a documentary, right?

Turn your key, sir!
Youtube rLMCjuge6oE
 
2017-09-22 07:11:55 AM  
What if Mueller himself can see the possibilities of being the guy that saved the US? What if he just refuses?
What if government people refuse to play along, no codes, no first strike, no soup for you?

These are honest thoughts in my head. Like the man that refused to launch nukes that just passed away?

/That kind of sensibility, in a time when sensibility seems lost?
 
2017-09-22 07:13:39 AM  

downstairs: I didn't live through Watergate (I'm 42.)

So I guess everyone gets to live through something like this?

At least Nixon did stuff as President.  EPA, China.  How important his role was, eh... at least he clocked in and did the presidenting job.  Usually.  Until he couldn't anymore.  At which point he quit so he wouldn't be handcuffed.


I did. (I'm 50.) Watergate is my very first political memory. Watching this shiatshow makes it look like Sunday morning cartoons though. Also, Nixon stopped getting stuff done when he feel into the bottle after the investigation started...of course Trump has yet to get anything done except voiding all of Obama's executive orders, so...there's that.
 
2017-09-22 07:15:28 AM  

Weaver95: Jim_Callahan: Trump doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of ordering military action and having it actually happen.

he might not have to tho.  just ordering the attack would trigger a massive backlash here in the states.  chaos is what trump WANTS.


Chaos is what PUTIN wants; Republican President Donald Trump is just Putin's dancing monkey in a little vest and hat, and a sash that says "Presedent" on it.
 
2017-09-22 07:15:56 AM  

Silverstaff: Jim_Callahan: The order to launch the nukes during the Cold War happened at least five times on the US's side alone, and that's just the incidents we know about.

Citation Needed.

5 times during the Cold War (i.e. 1946 though 1991), the POTUS ordered a nuclear attack, fully authenticated and the actual launch order was given, and the military just. . .ignored the order?

You do realize that Wargames and "Turn your key, Sir!" was NOT a documentary, right?

[iFrame https://www.youtube.com/embed/rLMCjuge6oE - 480x360]


Oh it was real, but the military advisors on the set would not let the director show what really happened.  Madsen pulled a Hanzo sword and sliced the guy who WAS going to pull the key,  the Gap Band "you dropped the bomb on me" was playing in the background and there was a pack of Red Apple on the desk"

Zed is gonna glow baby, Zed is gonna glow.
 
2017-09-22 07:17:54 AM  

JK8Fan: Reagan invaded Grenada days after the Marine barracks bombing in Lebanon. We won the Grenada war in short order and some pressure was taken off why precautions weren't taken to protect our troops in Lebanon when the Intel from the area indicated some action was going to be taken against the Marines.

Trump will likely invade Barbuda.


"After my military invaded under my orders, there is not a single building left standing, and not one terrorist left in Barbuda. All gone! *purses lips and bares teeth* One hundred percent destroyed.Rocket Man and Jjj-ina better watch out. This is what happens to all my enemies. *glances at post-it note on podium* Foreign AND domestic."
 
2017-09-22 07:21:36 AM  
I'm sorry, but no way is Trump going to fire Mueller (And thus confirm Russian collusion) without massive rioting and demonstrations in the streets.

Of course, the fact that massive rioting and unrest in the USA really helps Putin is the reason why I think he may actually do it.
 
2017-09-22 07:21:42 AM  

ginandbacon: downstairs: I didn't live through Watergate (I'm 42.)

So I guess everyone gets to live through something like this?

At least Nixon did stuff as President.  EPA, China.  How important his role was, eh... at least he clocked in and did the presidenting job.  Usually.  Until he couldn't anymore.  At which point he quit so he wouldn't be handcuffed.

I did. (I'm 50.) Watergate is my very first political memory. Watching this shiatshow makes it look like Sunday morning cartoons though. Also, Nixon stopped getting stuff done when he feel into the bottle after the investigation started...of course Trump has yet to get anything done except voiding all of Obama's executive orders, so...there's that.


I am 48 and do not remember it, and can tell you what color socks I was wearing 10 years ago on a Monday.

I was three years old in 73 and you were 5, are you sure you are not confusing School House rock with it?
 
2017-09-22 07:26:08 AM  

Weaver95: that was a profoundly optimistic article.  for what little its worth, I think that if/when Trump fires Mueller to avoid impeachment, this country *will* implode.  trump is not a popular man, and he's already lost the support of wall street elites and many republicans who pass for senior leadership in D.C.  Should trump fire Mueller, I suspect things would get immediately bloody and go rapidly downhill from there.


That's too dramatic.

If tax reform and/or Obamacare repeal passes, the other is likely to pass. If both pass, Trump gets an approval boost short term even if the bills are awful. He's already up 4% from a month ago.

If his ratings come up, Republicans defend him. He gets censured, some officials get canned, a few former campaign associates get indicted and the administration continues to disavow them. (I think the admin knows/campaign knew Manafort was dirty and that's part of why he was fired and why they downplayed his role)

The trump base shrugs it off as partisan, independents cluck but ultimately come to believe at least part of the 'both sides' obfuscation.

Democrats are incensed but can't do anything. There's rallies and floor speeches and a whole bunch of sound and fury ultimately resulting in nothing.

The US continues to abdicate its role in the world as a leader in anything but saber rattling. The republicans make gains in the senate, take some losses in the house, and go into 2020 in control of all 3 branches. 'Voter ID reform' happens. They make a hard push for 2020 and no one cares because it's inside politics.

In short, nothing will change.
 
2017-09-22 07:29:03 AM  

Weaver95: that was a profoundly optimistic article.  for what little its worth, I think that if/when Trump fires Mueller to avoid impeachment, this country *will* implode.  trump is not a popular man, and he's already lost the support of wall street elites and many republicans who pass for senior leadership in D.C.  Should trump fire Mueller, I suspect things would get immediately bloody and go rapidly downhill from there.


So patriotic Americans get to kill nazis again?  :)
 
2017-09-22 07:31:11 AM  

downstairs: I didn't live through Watergate (I'm 42.)

So I guess everyone gets to live through something like this?

At least Nixon did stuff as President.  EPA, China.  How important his role was, eh... at least he clocked in and did the presidenting job.  Usually.  Until he couldn't anymore.  At which point he quit so he wouldn't be handcuffed.


OSHA was also established under Nixon.  He'd be considered a libtard these days.
 
2017-09-22 07:32:03 AM  

Weaver95: lookheremyman: He starts a war somewhere. Seems as obvious as night follows day to me.

if trump were to start a war now, everyone would assume (rightly, IMHO) that he was just trying to avoid impeachment.  we'd tear ourselves apart over it


He'll start a war, NK will lob an ICBM at the US. Whether it hits or not, news footage will roll 24/7 and 60% of the US will suddenly back Trump in any retaliatory strike up to and including a full invasion and occupation.

If it's a nuclear strike on the US mainland that number will be 80%, and he'll be considered a 'global leader' as the US directs a coalition to attack NK.

It only backfires if NK restricts itself to bombing the hell out of Seoul. OTHER people getting attacked won't unite the US the same way. That might be seen as a humanitarian crisis solely of Donnie's doing.
 
2017-09-22 07:39:56 AM  

Deneb81: Weaver95: lookheremyman: He starts a war somewhere. Seems as obvious as night follows day to me.

if trump were to start a war now, everyone would assume (rightly, IMHO) that he was just trying to avoid impeachment.  we'd tear ourselves apart over it

He'll start a war, NK will lob an ICBM at the US. Whether it hits or not, news footage will roll 24/7 and 60% of the US will suddenly back Trump in any retaliatory strike up to and including a full invasion and occupation.

If it's a nuclear strike on the US mainland that number will be 80%, and he'll be considered a 'global leader' as the US directs a coalition to attack NK.

It only backfires if NK restricts itself to bombing the hell out of Seoul. OTHER people getting attacked won't unite the US the same way. That might be seen as a humanitarian crisis solely of Donnie's doing.


All of this.  Trump WANTS Kim to attack us so he can get his approval rating up, American civilian lives be damned.  Acceptance is all he wants.  Had his father given him just 1 farking hug as a child, the United States wouldn't be in this mess today.
 
2017-09-22 07:45:52 AM  

Cache: Weaver95:  ...Should trump fire Mueller, I suspect things would get immediately bloody and go rapidly downhill from there.

I hate to say it, but that might be the best thing that could happen.  ...Tree of liberty ...blood of revolution, and all that.


I like the counter to that quote.
The Rock - Mason vs Hummel
Youtube ZiSTYTRZFNc
 
2017-09-22 07:47:25 AM  

Jim_Callahan: The order to launch the nukes during the Cold War happened at least five times on the US's side alone, and that's just the incidents we know about.


Gonna need at least 5 citations on that one.
 
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