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    More: Asinine, National Football League, NFL, Promotion and relegation, Marino Division, Montana Division, Premier League, Sports league, American football  
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2648 clicks; posted to Sports » on 21 Sep 2017 at 3:20 PM (4 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-09-21 04:04:42 PM  
That would be fun! More leagues, more games, more sports! It's only bad if your team gets relegated.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2017-09-21 04:23:34 PM  
With relegation, there's no doubt you're in a rebuilding season.
 
2017-09-21 04:44:31 PM  
I don't think you should encourage even shiattier football teams to play. Most of them are terrible already and you barely have enough competent quarterbacks to go around.
 
2017-09-21 04:51:18 PM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: I don't think you should encourage even shiattier football teams to play. Most of them are terrible already and you barely have enough competent quarterbacks to go around.


Somebody DNRTFA, or they would know that the plan proposed in this article would not create new football teams and would, instead, turn the league into a senior and a junior league with 16 teams each.
 
2017-09-21 04:59:36 PM  
Abso-farking-lutely! I have been lobbying for this for years!
 
2017-09-21 05:08:31 PM  
Relegation isn't coming to the NFL. No farking way. However, I think it would work wonders for college football. Have the top 4 or 5 conferences expand to 16 teams each and only allow these conferences to compete for the national championship. The rest basically become FCS schools. At the end of the year the bottom 2 or 3 teams in each conference get relegated to the FCS while the top teams in the FCS get promoted to the FBS conferences.
 
2017-09-21 05:15:53 PM  

Serious Black: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: I don't think you should encourage even shiattier football teams to play. Most of them are terrible already and you barely have enough competent quarterbacks to go around.

Somebody DNRTFA, or they would know that the plan proposed in this article would not create new football teams and would, instead, turn the league into a senior and a junior league with 16 teams each.


You don't think it wouldn't encourage many more teams?
 
jbc [TotalFark]
2017-09-21 05:16:03 PM  
He'd be better off trying to make MLS more like football: get rid of the stupid faux-Euro team names, increase scoring, and find someone smart enough to start and stop a game clock so that the officials don't have to pull a random number out of their asses at the end of each half.
 
2017-09-21 05:18:53 PM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Serious Black: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: I don't think you should encourage even shiattier football teams to play. Most of them are terrible already and you barely have enough competent quarterbacks to go around.

Somebody DNRTFA, or they would know that the plan proposed in this article would not create new football teams and would, instead, turn the league into a senior and a junior league with 16 teams each.

You don't think it wouldn't encourage many more teams?


In the structure described in the article, the NFL would still be the sole American football league, and new teams would presumably have to petition the league for entry. I wouldn't guarantee that happening.
 
2017-09-21 05:21:43 PM  
Relegation makes far more sense to me in baseball.
Place last in the division? To AAA with you.
The Durham Bulls just won the AAA Championship Game the other night - imagine bumping them up to the AL East.
 
2017-09-21 05:23:57 PM  

jbc: He'd be better off trying to make MLS more like football: get rid of the stupid faux-Euro team names, increase scoring, and find someone smart enough to start and stop a game clock so that the officials don't have to pull a random number out of their asses at the end of each half.


This is the only one I'd agree with. Generic names are worthless to me. The rest of them? Meh. Soccer games wouldn't be more exciting if goals were worth ten trillion points. And stoppage time isn't random; it's based on how much time was not spent actively playing because of injuries, substitutions, water breaks (when taken during heat advisories), and deliberate attempts to waste time. The fourth official keeps track of how much time is taken from regular time for those events.
 
2017-09-21 05:24:19 PM  
Seems like a good idea, if the purpose is to accelerate the decline of interest in the NFL. Each year, there's a handful of playoff teams which didn't make the playoffs the year before. This year, that team could be your team (not applicable to all teams.)

Better system: have the top four from the bottom division play the bottom four from the top division. Winners get a spot in the playoffs and are in the top division the following season. And the top 12 get a bye week before the playoffs.
 
2017-09-21 05:26:10 PM  
Laughably awful idea.
 
2017-09-21 05:36:55 PM  

jbc: He'd be better off trying to make MLS more like football: get rid of the stupid faux-Euro team names, increase scoring, and find someone smart enough to start and stop a game clock so that the officials don't have to pull a random number out of their asses at the end of each half.


You should watch college soccer, then.
 
2017-09-21 05:50:03 PM  
Soccer-style relegation doesn't even work. Top teams make more money, can afford better players, can stay on top indefinitely. Every league has become a stale formality as the same 2 or 3 rich super teams fight it out every year. There is virtually zero genuine competition (and before you bring up Leicester City, that was an aberration).

Do you want the Patriots winning every 3 or 4 years for the rest of time? That's what happens in a relegation system.
 
2017-09-21 05:58:34 PM  

jbc: He'd be better off trying to make MLS more like football: get rid of the stupid faux-Euro team names, increase scoring, and find someone smart enough to start and stop a game clock so that the officials don't have to pull a random number out of their asses at the end of each half.


Keith Olbermann had a nice rant along these lines a year or two ago. The basic point was "America, enjoy soccer, but be yourselves and cut out all the bullshiat European affectation."

Which is a segue: everyone, stop trying to make relegation happen. It's not going to happen.
 
2017-09-21 05:59:10 PM  

Ishkur: Soccer-style relegation doesn't even work. Top teams make more money, can afford better players, can stay on top indefinitely. Every league has become a stale formality as the same 2 or 3 rich super teams fight it out every year. There is virtually zero genuine competition (and before you bring up Leicester City, that was an aberration).

Do you want the Patriots winning every 3 or 4 years for the rest of time? That's what happens in a relegation system.


Europeans love predictability.
/being a bayern/psg/rm/barca/man u fan must be so boring.
 
2017-09-21 06:16:38 PM  

Serious Black: The fourth official keeps track of how much time is taken from regular time for those events.


Huh. I've been to half a dozen pro soccer games, and I've sometimes remembered to watch the on-field ref near the end of each half to figure out when they signaled to the timekeeper how much stoppage time would be played. Now I know why I never saw anything.
 
2017-09-21 06:19:39 PM  
I think it's a fantastic idea in theory.  In practicality, though, it wouldn't work.  There aren't enough NFL ready players to fill the team's roster's right now.   Having a secondary, non-developmental league isn't going to help with that.   All you'd be doing is swapping the Browns with whatever team won the lower division, which will become the new Browns.

What they need to do is set up revenue sharing for the owners based on team quality.  Win the Superb Owl, and you get the biggest chunk of the pie.  Play in Cleveland, and you get nothing.

So long as there is no financial penalty for sucking, shiatty owners aren't going to do a thing to fix it.
 
2017-09-21 06:22:20 PM  
This sounds like a good way to permanently lock about a dozen teams into the junior league. Who that's worth a shiat would ever want to play for one of them? You'd start seeing endless Elway-style holdouts and no free agents willing to move down.
 
2017-09-21 06:24:12 PM  

Ishkur: Soccer-style relegation doesn't even work. Top teams make more money, can afford better players, can stay on top indefinitely.


Every single team in the NFL has the exact same salary cap.   Teams that make more money can't spend it on better players.   The Browns and the Pats are the same in that regard.

Where the extra money comes into play is in facilities and coaches.   If an owner wants to be a cheap ass, that's where you will see it.
 
2017-09-21 06:26:24 PM  

Rent Party: I think it's a fantastic idea in theory.  In practicality, though, it wouldn't work.  There aren't enough NFL ready players to fill the team's roster's right now.   Having a secondary, non-developmental league isn't going to help with that.   All you'd be doing is swapping the Browns with whatever team won the lower division, which will become the new Browns.

What they need to do is set up revenue sharing for the owners based on team quality.  Win the Superb Owl, and you get the biggest chunk of the pie.  Play in Cleveland, and you get nothing.

So long as there is no financial penalty for sucking, shiatty owners aren't going to do a thing to fix it.


That's not what the article is suggesting.
 
2017-09-21 06:35:52 PM  

max_pooper: Rent Party: I think it's a fantastic idea in theory.  In practicality, though, it wouldn't work.  There aren't enough NFL ready players to fill the team's roster's right now.   Having a secondary, non-developmental league isn't going to help with that.   All you'd be doing is swapping the Browns with whatever team won the lower division, which will become the new Browns.

What they need to do is set up revenue sharing for the owners based on team quality.  Win the Superb Owl, and you get the biggest chunk of the pie.  Play in Cleveland, and you get nothing.

So long as there is no financial penalty for sucking, shiatty owners aren't going to do a thing to fix it.

That's not what the article is suggesting.


Oh I know. It's saying you take half the teams and form a lower level league.  And that is just a stupid idea.  It also changes nothing.  You'd still have the best of the shiatty league getting stomped by the Real Men's league as soon as they came up.

If you want to fix quality of play in the NFL, the best thing you could do is remove two teams outright, and disperse the best players from those teams into the rest of the league.

I mean really, do we really need the Jacksonville Jaguars?  Will the Chargers ever find a home?   Lets just shoot them and loot them.  Everyone else will benefit.
 
2017-09-21 06:45:13 PM  

Serious Black: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: I don't think you should encourage even shiattier football teams to play. Most of them are terrible already and you barely have enough competent quarterbacks to go around.

Somebody DNRTFA, or they would know that the plan proposed in this article would not create new football teams and would, instead, turn the league into a senior and a junior league with 16 teams each.


...so they lied when they said it was "soccer-style"...because every such league in Europe is open to new teams if you have the money; you just start at the very bottom.
 
2017-09-21 06:46:16 PM  

jbc: He'd be better off trying to make MLS more like football: get rid of the stupid faux-Euro team names, increase scoring, and find someone smart enough to start and stop a game clock so that the officials don't have to pull a random number out of their asses at the end of each half.


Too bad MLS have already said they have no interest in creating leagues for relegation with either the USSL or the NASL.  Also, the number of added minutes is not arbitrary.  There are guidelines, which barring actual injury, is 30 sec. for each substitution and 30 sec for each goal scored.
 
2017-09-21 06:46:17 PM  

doctorguilty: Relegation makes far more sense to me in baseball.
Place last in the division? To AAA with you.
The Durham Bulls just won the AAA Championship Game the other night - imagine bumping them up to the AL East.


The MLB teams control minor league franchises too much for that to ever happen in baseball.
 
2017-09-21 06:46:53 PM  

doctorguilty: Relegation makes far more sense to me in baseball.
Place last in the division? To AAA with you.
The Durham Bulls just won the AAA Championship Game the other night - imagine bumping them up to the AL East.


Baseball already has the infrastructure for relegation to make sense.
 
2017-09-21 06:48:37 PM  

Ishkur: Soccer-style relegation doesn't even work. Top teams make more money, can afford better players, can stay on top indefinitely. Every league has become a stale formality as the same 2 or 3 rich super teams fight it out every year. There is virtually zero genuine competition (and before you bring up Leicester City, that was an aberration).

Do you want the Patriots winning every 3 or 4 years for the rest of time? That's what happens in a relegation system.


If that is actually true, then why have Sunderland and Aston Villa been recently relegated despite being formerly consistent top performers and title winners?
 
2017-09-21 06:48:48 PM  

Super Chronic: jbc: He'd be better off trying to make MLS more like football: get rid of the stupid faux-Euro team names, increase scoring, and find someone smart enough to start and stop a game clock so that the officials don't have to pull a random number out of their asses at the end of each half.

Keith Olbermann had a nice rant along these lines a year or two ago. The basic point was "America, enjoy soccer, but be yourselves and cut out all the bullshiat European affectation."

Which is a segue: everyone, stop trying to make relegation happen. It's not going to happen.


This view is why soccer will remain a tertiary sport in America, and also why MLS will remain a tertiary league.

/If you want to watch soccer, watch soccer.
//If you want to watch an American sport, watch an American sport.
///Stop trying to "Americanize" soccer.
 
2017-09-21 06:50:25 PM  

pdieten: This sounds like a good way to permanently lock about a dozen teams into the junior league. Who that's worth a shiat would ever want to play for one of them? You'd start seeing endless Elway-style holdouts and no free agents willing to move down.


...well, that happens now. When's the last big-name free agent that went to the Browns?
 
2017-09-21 07:19:17 PM  
They mention a college team playing a NFL team for some reason, as well as some matchups with the Canadian league.    This would be fine if your desired goal is severe injuries  and scoring shut-outs.
 
2017-09-21 07:24:42 PM  

harleyquinnical: doctorguilty: Relegation makes far more sense to me in baseball.
Place last in the division? To AAA with you.
The Durham Bulls just won the AAA Championship Game the other night - imagine bumping them up to the AL East.

Baseball already has the infrastructure for relegation to make sense.


Before the development of the farm system, this would have made sense. But with relationship between major league teams and their affiliates being what it is now, I don't think it would work.
 
2017-09-21 07:29:17 PM  

IlGreven: Stop trying to "Americanize" soccer


I'm an American that's been playing soccer for over 50 years, and I have no idea what that even means.
 
2017-09-21 07:37:16 PM  

IlGreven: Super Chronic: jbc: He'd be better off trying to make MLS more like football: get rid of the stupid faux-Euro team names, increase scoring, and find someone smart enough to start and stop a game clock so that the officials don't have to pull a random number out of their asses at the end of each half.

Keith Olbermann had a nice rant along these lines a year or two ago. The basic point was "America, enjoy soccer, but be yourselves and cut out all the bullshiat European affectation."

Which is a segue: everyone, stop trying to make relegation happen. It's not going to happen.

This view is why soccer will remain a tertiary sport in America, and also why MLS will remain a tertiary league.

/If you want to watch soccer, watch soccer.
//If you want to watch an American sport, watch an American sport.
///Stop trying to "Americanize" soccer.


They tried that tack years ago giving teams more American names and using American football terms for field positions, I.e. fullback, halfback, etc. It didn't work. It seems to me mimicking to European model has been more successful. I love soccer and watch every chance I get, and I'm super jazzed about the FC Cincinnati phenomenon for however long it lasts.

You say soccer will remain a tertiary sport?  So what. As long as it remains viable. I'm not like football fans who feel so threatened by people liking what they don't like. I think that shiat is hilarious.
 
2017-09-21 07:40:09 PM  

Uzzah: Serious Black: The fourth official keeps track of how much time is taken from regular time for those events.

Huh. I've been to half a dozen pro soccer games, and I've sometimes remembered to watch the on-field ref near the end of each half to figure out when they signaled to the timekeeper how much stoppage time would be played. Now I know why I never saw anything.


The referee is the sole arbiter of added time (the fourth official merely displays the number). The reason you don't see him signal is because the officials have microphones to talk to each other.
 
2017-09-21 07:41:27 PM  
How about the NFL juts seize the Cleveland franchise from its awful owners?  That should be a thing.  Don't make the playoffs for three years?  You're on probation.  Don't make it for two more years?  Double-secret probation!  One more failed season, and it's curtains for the franchise owner!  Somebody more competent takes over, and the old owner gets lynched by the fans.
 
2017-09-21 07:52:01 PM  

Slackfumasta: How about the NFL juts seize the Cleveland franchise from its awful owners?  That should be a thing.  Don't make the playoffs for three years?  You're on probation.  Don't make it for two more years?  Double-secret probation!  One more failed season, and it's curtains for the franchise owner!  Somebody more competent takes over, and the old owner gets lynched by the fans.


The rumor in Cincinnati is that's exactly what happened to the Bengals. After the David Shula debacle the league told Mike Brown "you WILL hire a competent coach and you WILL put a competitive team on the field or we WILL take your franchise away." And that's how we got Marvin Lewis.
 
2017-09-21 08:02:37 PM  
The author of that piece really hates the Browns.

But if relegation ever happens, just disband Cleveland and UGA.
 
2017-09-21 08:06:33 PM  

germ78: Relegation isn't coming to the NFL. No farking way. However, I think it would work wonders for college football. Have the top 4 or 5 conferences expand to 16 teams each and only allow these conferences to compete for the national championship. The rest basically become FCS schools. At the end of the year the bottom 2 or 3 teams in each conference get relegated to the FCS while the top teams in the FCS get promoted to the FBS conferences.


Yeah, I've heard it floated for college and I like it but they're not pro teams and it would play hell with their schedules.
 
2017-09-21 08:10:45 PM  

harleyquinnical: doctorguilty: Relegation makes far more sense to me in baseball.
Place last in the division? To AAA with you.
The Durham Bulls just won the AAA Championship Game the other night - imagine bumping them up to the AL East.

Baseball already has the infrastructure for relegation to make sense.


Not really. The minor leagues are developmental leagues, players for the pro teams that don't get a roster spot.

You would need to either set up a whole new (and even larger) system of developmental leagues or force teams to put new draft picks on grit rosters. And both of those would lead to far worse quality of players.

And you would basically never see any team move up for more than a year because every player of any value will sign with the clubs that will stay in the top league all the time. So the benefit wouldn't materialize.
 
2017-09-21 08:44:35 PM  

germ78: Relegation isn't coming to the NFL. No farking way. However, I think it would work wonders for college football. Have the top 4 or 5 conferences expand to 16 teams each and only allow these conferences to compete for the national championship. The rest basically become FCS schools. At the end of the year the bottom 2 or 3 teams in each conference get relegated to the FCS while the top teams in the FCS get promoted to the FBS conferences.


As much as I could give two shiats about CFB (read: frontrunner football), if you're going to do this, might as well expand the playoff ala DIAA, DII and DIII: 16 team playoff.
 
2017-09-21 08:55:49 PM  
Relegation and promotion really does add a lot to the game in Europe.  Swansea looked like an absolute goner early on last year and watching them salvage things was pretty compelling stuff.  I can't imagine it working here though.  Our leagues, in pretty much every sport, are just organized differently.

The NFL has problems other than just head injuries though.  The game has became really boring much of the time.  It seems entirely QB driven to me and, having messed with the scheduling so much to chase money, they've managed to hurt the product even more.

Drop the stupid Thursday game for openers.  And if they're going to insist on playing games in London, at least send one or two teams who don't suck.  The NFL can never match the atmosphere and variety of the college game but they can avoid the self-inflicted wounds.
 
2017-09-21 10:22:35 PM  
Relegation is a bad idea in America and everyone suggesting it shows that they have no idea why relegation works there and no clue how American sports leagues operate.

Canadian football is a completely different SPORT than NFL football, as is college football. They aren't going to switch things up just to become a minor league and be LESS relevant.

College football - the difference between divisions (and subdivisions) has nothing to do with level of football and everything to do with scholarships/stadiums/support infrastructure. There's nothing keeping FCS teams out of the FBS NOW except the fact that they'd lose money.

What are you gonna do, strip 20 kids of scholarships when their team gets relegated? Or let teams with 85 scholarships compete with teams with only 65? Are you going to force lower levels to pay for more scholarships even though they're losing money as it is? Or cut scholarships from schools that can afford to give them, just to level the playing field? How are you going to determine the 2-3 beat teams or worst teams when each level has 110+ teams and each team plays 12 or so games during the season?

The EPL and such play every team in the league, home and away. It creates a perfect opportunity to determine the best and worst of a year. With American football, there are no real international tournaments to go to. There are no Champions Leagues.

The closest you could get would be to have four 8-team leagues. Then, in short order, every team that went to the bottom couple rungs would die out quickly (see: Every American football league that has existed besides the NFL.) There's no money to be made in being a developmental football league. If there were, it would exist.
 
2017-09-21 11:51:47 PM  

Slackfumasta: How about the NFL juts seize the Cleveland franchise from its awful owners?  That should be a thing.  Don't make the playoffs for three years?  You're on probation.  Don't make it for two more years?  Double-secret probation!  One more failed season, and it's curtains for the franchise owner!  Somebody more competent takes over, and the old owner gets lynched by the fans.


Yeah...no.  As much as the idea of punishing ownership is appealing, it's not going to fly.

As for relegation,  no, not a good idea to split the league up in two down the line.  You want proper competition, set up more teams.  Leave twenty in the top, twenty down.
 
2017-09-22 01:00:49 AM  
Ah the old "no teams are stuck in the lower levels" bit. Um, on paper that may be true, however when a player develops enough, a big club just buys them. The lower levels of the English football system are essentially the minors for the Premier League. Exceptionally rare when a newly promoted team can stay on more than 1 season.
 
2017-09-22 04:45:35 AM  

The5thElement: Exceptionally rare when a newly promoted team can stay on more than 1 season.


It's not been quite as bad as that in the epl for a while now. More than half the teams in the epl at the moment were not there when it was founded, and there are only a handful of perpetuals left since villa dropped. The tier below the epl has many teams the equal of teams in the epl now, and many of them draw crowds comparable to the lower half of the epl.

The main reason promotion and relegation works for European football is there are just many many more teams around, and there's no college system. You don't go to university to play soccer in Europe, if you're a young talent you'll sign for a small club and work up from there, or you'll find yourself in the academy of a big club and then be loaned out to a smaller one.

The entire way player development works is so utterly different between the NFL and European soccer that I don't think you can really take structures that work in one and apply to the other.
 
2017-09-22 09:17:36 AM  
Someone just finished watching the ol 'AFL/NFL' marathon from NFL Films and got inspired to write that pile of manure.
 
2017-09-22 11:20:40 AM  
The change to two divisions is too drastic.  If they kept the divisions the same size though, this could make for some fun seasons.  Top in a division advances one up, and the bottom goes one down.  Keep the playoffs the same.
 We could end up with an AFC division that is the Patriots, Broncos, Steelers, and Chiefs.  Or an NFC division that is the Falcons, Packers, Seahawks, and Cowboys.
Rivalries don't really exist anymore.  I'm sure the Lions wish they had one with the Packers, but it's really more like a couple of exhibition games.
 
2017-09-22 11:22:26 AM  

Dave and the Mission: They mention a college team playing a NFL team for some reason, as well as some matchups with the Canadian league.    This would be fine if your desired goal is severe injuries  and scoring shut-outs.


This is where they lost me: When I scrolled down and saw a graphic with the Browns, Alabama, a CFL team and the Philadelphia Soul.

Seriously? Even if I had RTFA (didn't), I'm trying to think of any scenario where a team built for AFL could play an outdoor team. No. No, no, no. Stopped even thinking about reading there, and not clicking back to figure out who the CFL team was.

That said, if you're going to borrow a concept from soccer for the NFL, my suggestion is you borrow the FA Cup:

- Weeks 3, 6, 9, 12 and 15 are "Cup Weeks" where you don't have a set schedule but instead are playing in a bracket where seeds are determined similarly to draft order.
- The bracket is firm -- the winners of 1 vs. 32 and 16 vs. 17 play, while the losers also play in the first level of cascading loser's brackets, so you always can limit the number of teams you have to think about playing in the next round to two.
- Games also count for regular season standings.
- The goal is to work toward a Week 15, neutral-site "Cup Championship Game" that can be like a second Super Bowl (and all the revenue that goes with it). All the consolation games that week get played on Saturday, with a third-place game on Saturday night, and the CCG is played on Sunday at a neutral site.
- Sets up a scenario where truly legendary teams can "win the double" (both the Cup and the Super Bowl).
- Also creates a scenario where you could even have a THIRD title game between the Cup champion and Super Bowl champion. Or a "Community Shield" type game to start the next season. Or even just let there be two champions and embrace the "but who's better" debate.

They'd have to work out logistics like who hosts (I'm thinking teams that get upsets also get a chance to host), but at least you'd be giving places and fans three-weeks lead time to figure out where they're going.

Adds intrigue, creates discussion, gets attention and gives every team something to play for -- you can be a team out of the playoff chase, but still trying to do damage in the Cup. And it still fits in the framework of the NFL schedule as it is, basically.

But yeah, I'm sure Americans will be like, "We ain't takin' no idea from no hare-brained, European soccer fans! 'Merica!" [revs truck engine, fires gun in the air, says "Yee haw!" and drinks a watered-down beer]
 
2017-09-22 11:40:23 AM  
1) Calgary isn't the returning Grey Cup champions, author guy. Nor did Alabama win the college championship. Diminishes your credibility a bit.
2) Your solution proposes having collegiate athletes play, for no pay, for, at minimum, an extra year as their "reward" for winning their championship. You sound like the worst gift giver in history.
3) Arena teams have a 21-man roster. The NFL teams are going to cut more than half their team to play that game? The NFL teams get to keep all their rules? An NFL QB makes more money than everyone in the AFL combined. If they got demoted, also, where TF would they play? They have to build their own arena?
 
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