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(The New York Times)   Not news: Paul Manafort has a history of working for the interests of foreign governments. News: This includes supporting the Kurdish Independence referendum in Iraq. Fark: His support began just as Mueller raided his house this summer   ( mobile.nytimes.com) divider line
    More: Dumbass, Mr. Manafort, Iraqi Kurdistan, President of the United States, Kurdish people, Massoud Barzani, Kurdistan, Kurdish independence, Kurdistan Regional Government  
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833 clicks; posted to Politics » on 21 Sep 2017 at 7:56 AM (4 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-09-21 03:24:29 AM  
So why does Russia want an independent Kurdistan?
 
2017-09-21 06:20:48 AM  

fusillade762: So why does Russia want an independent Kurdistan?


Russia hates the Turks.  Independent Kurdistan would cause them chaos.
 
2017-09-21 07:03:20 AM  
That guy has the most eye jobby eye job that's ever been eye jobbed.
 
2017-09-21 07:17:32 AM  

fusillade762: So why does Russia want an independent Kurdistan?


i guess you could suggest a speculative theory that they knew manafort was under investigation and so he and they are laying a trail (although what the true purpose behind the layers would be would still be anyone's guess and not narrowed down), but that's just a hypothetical possibility

perhaps the first and foremost point to take in, though, is that a lot of people with considerable experience seem to be happy to categorize the current kurdish discussion as being of potentially huge significance to the future of the middle east, and i don't think any of that would be easy to dispute. on that basis alone, you would expect russia to take a serious interest. you would also expect the us to take a serious interest, and so on that basis, too, if you could separate it, you would also expect russia to take a further interest, just as i don't think america can afford to ignore the situation, so for russia. you can look over the last 70 years particularly, both washington and moscow have taken an interest in line with their regional objectives, with varying degrees of  'support,' or lack of. both washingotn and moscow have to react to the reality, and here there is potentially a significant development. given the fact that america is currently being led by trump, with what i would call his profound flaws, they probably see an even greater opportunity to seize a potentially momentous developing reality
 
2017-09-21 07:20:40 AM  
/they [russia] probably see an even greater opportunity
 
2017-09-21 07:27:31 AM  

fusillade762: So why does Russia want an independent Kurdistan?


they like playing off the Turks, and they're allies with Iran. If Iran wanted to dominate the region, you'd need to neuter Turkey, this is a pretty good way to do it. I think there's only a small portion of Iran that's Kurdish. As opposed to a significant chunk of south eastern Turkey. The risk of losing that small chunk for regional power consolidation is worth it
 
2017-09-21 07:59:20 AM  
Regardless of international political implications and the associated struggles over the balance of power, can we agree that the Kurds deserve a homeland?
 
2017-09-21 08:01:53 AM  

kudayta: Regardless of international political implications and the associated struggles over the balance of power, can we agree that the Kurds deserve a homeland?


That sounds like something a Russian Kurdbot would say.
 
2017-09-21 08:03:44 AM  

fusillade762: So why does Russia want an independent Kurdistan?


Because fark you, that's why!

/is there another reason Russians do anything?
 
2017-09-21 08:06:14 AM  
FTFA: The United States opposes the referendum, but Mr. Manafort has carved out a long and lucrative career advising foreign clients whose interests have occasionally diverged from American foreign policy.

Making America Great Again: putting business interests ahead of your.country.
 
2017-09-21 08:09:25 AM  
I'm sure the pardon letter is written and signed. And will be leaked in the next week or so.
 
2017-09-21 08:09:36 AM  
Also, while he was Trump's campaign manager Manafort offered to provide private briefings on the state of the race to one of those two Russian oligarchs he was in debt to the tune of seven figures.

You know, the one who was suing him for the money he owed and for breach of contract for not following through on a promise to create a pro-Russia media channel in Europe but dropped the suit when he went to work for Trump pro bono.
 
2017-09-21 08:10:10 AM  

Ezimar: FTFA: The United States opposes the referendum, but Mr. Manafort has carved out a long and lucrative career advising foreign clients whose interests have occasionally diverged from American foreign policy.

Making America Great Again: putting business interests ahead of your.country.


Manafort is just a mercenary with no national loyalty.  Sometimes he works for "good guys," sometimes he works for "bad guys."  In reality, he works for whatever guys are signing his checks this week.  And that would be fine if he'd stayed in his lane.  But when he stepped into domestic politics, he dragged a LOT of this shiat in with him.  It also shows (again) how foolish Trump and his people are.  If Trump had a brain, he wouldn't have let someone like Manafort within 1000 yards of his campaign.  Instead, he put the guy in charge.
 
2017-09-21 08:10:31 AM  

kudayta: Regardless of international political implications and the associated struggles over the balance of power, can we agree that the Kurds deserve a homeland?


They are the largest homogeneous ethnic group with out a nation, so morally, yes.  But there are still a few kinks in that plan that need to be worked out.
 
2017-09-21 08:11:21 AM  

HMS_Blinkin: Ezimar: FTFA: The United States opposes the referendum, but Mr. Manafort has carved out a long and lucrative career advising foreign clients whose interests have occasionally diverged from American foreign policy.

Making America Great Again: putting business interests ahead of your.country.

Manafort is just a mercenary with no national loyalty.  Sometimes he works for "good guys," sometimes he works for "bad guys."  In reality, he works for whatever guys are signing his checks this week.  And that would be fine if he'd stayed in his lane.  But when he stepped into domestic politics, he dragged a LOT of this shiat in with him.  It also shows (again) how foolish Trump and his people are.  If Trump had a brain, he wouldn't have let someone like Manafort within 1000 yards of his campaign.  Instead, he put the guy in charge.


img.fark.net
 
2017-09-21 08:11:54 AM  

HMS_Blinkin: Ezimar: FTFA: The United States opposes the referendum, but Mr. Manafort has carved out a long and lucrative career advising foreign clients whose interests have occasionally diverged from American foreign policy.

Making America Great Again: putting business interests ahead of your.country.

Manafort is just a mercenary with no national loyalty.  Sometimes he works for "good guys," sometimes he works for "bad guys."  In reality, he works for whatever guys are signing his checks this week.  And that would be fine if he'd stayed in his lane.  But when he stepped into domestic politics, he dragged a LOT of this shiat in with him.  It also shows (again) how foolish Trump and his people are.  If Trump had a brain, he wouldn't have let someone like Manafort within 1000 yards of his campaign.  Instead, he put the guy in charge.


Only the BEST people.  Remember?
 
2017-09-21 08:15:22 AM  

DubyaHater: I'm sure the pardon letter is written and signed. And will be leaked in the next week or so.


Fine by me.  If he's pardoned he can't plead the 5th and can be compelled to spill his guts about everything.
 
2017-09-21 08:17:30 AM  
Even though I like the Kurds and think they should have a homeland.  I can see why Russia would be on board to stir up even more chaos in the region.
It's the same reasons for backing Assad.
 
2017-09-21 08:18:02 AM  
Manafort may prove to be the single slimiest, dirtiest, most treasonous person in American political history.

And Il Douche hired him to run his campaign.
 
2017-09-21 08:19:03 AM  

Lochsteppe: kudayta: Regardless of international political implications and the associated struggles over the balance of power, can we agree that the Kurds deserve a homeland?

That sounds like something a Russian Kurdbot would say.


Yes, yes it is.  I can certainly sympathize with suspicions, but I'm not a jackass.  At least not that kind of jackass.

I just think if we're gonna go with this Westphalian model of sovereignty, then the Kurds deserve a seat at the table just like any other nation of people.  It's complicated though, I get that.  It would piss off the Turks, and the Turks are for better or for worse a member of NATO.  Consequently, it would strengthen the Russians and they're run by a god damned prick that invades his neighbors and hates gay folk.  And finally the Iranians would move against Iraq and try to seize power in the entire Gulf region, and while I love the Iranian people (hot women, good food, what more do you want?); their government is theocracy at its worst.
 
2017-09-21 08:20:19 AM  

HMS_Blinkin: DubyaHater: I'm sure the pardon letter is written and signed. And will be leaked in the next week or so.

Fine by me.  If he's pardoned he can't plead the 5th and can be compelled to spill his guts about everything.


Unless torture is legalized, I imagine "I do not recall" will be the only phrase he speaks for the rest of his life.
 
2017-09-21 08:20:39 AM  

HMS_Blinkin: DubyaHater: I'm sure the pardon letter is written and signed. And will be leaked in the next week or so.

Fine by me.  If he's pardoned he can't plead the 5th and can be compelled to spill his guts about everything.


I'm doubtful he'll talk. Pretty sure his choice now is prison or an unfortunate accident. This is no ordinary crime.
 
2017-09-21 08:21:56 AM  
i.ytimg.com
 
2017-09-21 08:22:38 AM  

American Mail Order Husband: kudayta: Regardless of international political implications and the associated struggles over the balance of power, can we agree that the Kurds deserve a homeland?

They are the largest homogeneous ethnic group with out a nation, so morally, yes.  But there are still a few kinks in that plan that need to be worked out.


Agreed.  Since the smart people aren't currently in power in my country, do you have any ideas how we can iron out those kinks during our downtime?
 
2017-09-21 08:23:44 AM  

fusillade762: So why does Russia want an independent Kurdistan?


It sucks, doesn't it, when your enemies support the same things you do?
 
2017-09-21 08:23:46 AM  

DubyaHater: HMS_Blinkin: DubyaHater: I'm sure the pardon letter is written and signed. And will be leaked in the next week or so.

Fine by me.  If he's pardoned he can't plead the 5th and can be compelled to spill his guts about everything.

Unless torture is legalized, I imagine "I do not recall" will be the only phrase he speaks for the rest of his life.


Both of you presume Congress will ever hold sessions at which his testimony would be useful.

/ deep down, not hopeful
 
2017-09-21 08:23:55 AM  

fusillade762: So why does Russia want an independent Kurdistan?


Well comparing these two maps I'd say it's oil.
img.fark.netimg.fark.net
 
2017-09-21 08:24:16 AM  

Catlenfell: Even though I like the Kurds and think they should have a homeland.  I can see why Russia would be on board to stir up even more chaos in the region.
It's the same reasons for backing Assad.


backing Assad wasn't to cause chaos, it was to ensure there was a pro-Russian leader in charge to keep letting them have their Mediterranean port access.
 
2017-09-21 08:27:16 AM  

somedude210: fusillade762: So why does Russia want an independent Kurdistan?

they like playing off the Turks, and they're allies with Iran. If Iran wanted to dominate the region, you'd need to neuter Turkey, this is a pretty good way to do it. I think there's only a small portion of Iran that's Kurdish. As opposed to a significant chunk of south eastern Turkey. The risk of losing that small chunk for regional power consolidation is worth it


img.fark.net
It's not a tiny chunk of Iran, but it's less than the chunk of Turkey.

Mind you, the goal is probably to get the Kurds out of Iranian Kurdistan and Syrian Kurdistan. But it might also start moving Kurds out of Turkish Kurdistan. Remains to be seen.
 
2017-09-21 08:28:24 AM  

DubyaHater: HMS_Blinkin: DubyaHater: I'm sure the pardon letter is written and signed. And will be leaked in the next week or so.

Fine by me.  If he's pardoned he can't plead the 5th and can be compelled to spill his guts about everything.

Unless torture is legalized, I imagine "I do not recall" will be the only phrase he speaks for the rest of his life.


Too many 'I do not recall' answers should be followed up with 'Do not or will not?'

If they affirm 'Do not', they should be examined for physical brain injuries that would prevent them from having properly functioning long-term memory. If they affirm 'will not', they should be remanded to the care of an unlicensed corrective phrenologist.
 
2017-09-21 08:28:44 AM  

HMS_Blinkin: Ezimar: FTFA: The United States opposes the referendum, but Mr. Manafort has carved out a long and lucrative career advising foreign clients whose interests have occasionally diverged from American foreign policy.

Making America Great Again: putting business interests ahead of your.country.

Manafort is just a mercenary with no national loyalty.  Sometimes he works for "good guys," sometimes he works for "bad guys."  In reality, he works for whatever guys are signing his checks this week.  And that would be fine if he'd stayed in his lane.  But when he stepped into domestic politics, he dragged a LOT of this shiat in with him.  It also shows (again) how foolish Trump and his people are.  If Trump had a brain, he wouldn't have let someone like Manafort within 1000 yards of his campaign.  Instead, he put the guy in charge.


I mean, I think the claim that Trump "has the average American's understanding of how politics works" is an accurate statement. In that understanding is the assumption that everyone involved with the process is a crook who would sell their mother for a nickel. He hired people of questionable ethical backgrounds because that is how he assumed the game was played and the reason we didn't have this many scandals is:

1) Others were better at hiding it.
2) The media is biased and only reporting on how corrupt his team is. What, are you going to claim David Axelrod DIDN'T secretly work with foreign governments to enrich himself during the Obama campaign?
 
2017-09-21 08:29:01 AM  

Lochsteppe: That sounds like something a Russian Kurdbot would say.


img.fark.net
What a Russian curd-bot might look like.
 
2017-09-21 08:30:48 AM  

UncleDirtNap: fusillade762: So why does Russia want an independent Kurdistan?

Well comparing these two maps I'd say it's oil.
[img.fark.net image 822x480][img.fark.net image 680x450]


Have to look a little further north, for Russia's Atlantic access.
 
2017-09-21 08:32:04 AM  

kudayta: Regardless of international political implications and the associated struggles over the balance of power, can we agree that the Kurds deserve a homeland?


Let's take it a step further and say everyone deserves a home.
 
2017-09-21 08:33:22 AM  

kudayta: Consequently, it would strengthen the Russians


Would it?

It annoys Turkey, but it remains to be seen whether or not it actually weakens them. And why Russia is trying to curry some favor in Iraq, they're also the strongest allies of Kurdish opponents in Iran and Syria. At best, Russia goes from "mortal enemy" to "it's complicated" in the eyes of the Kurds.

I get that the Kurds sit on oil, but how do you get that oil to Russia? You can go through Turkey (ancient Russian enemy), or you can go through Armenia/Azerbaijan/Georgia (modern Russian enemies). That pipeline is going to randomly blow up a lot.
 
2017-09-21 08:35:07 AM  

BeesNuts: kudayta: Regardless of international political implications and the associated struggles over the balance of power, can we agree that the Kurds deserve a homeland?

Let's take it a step further and say everyone deserves a home.


You're not wrong, everyone deserves a home.  Especially if we're still on board with the Westphalian sovereignty I mentioned up-thread.  The Kurds don't have a homeland right now though, and I'd like to change that, and that's what this thread is about.
 
2017-09-21 08:35:16 AM  

BalugaJoe: fusillade762: So why does Russia want an independent Kurdistan?

Russia hates the Turks.  Independent Kurdistan would cause them chaos.


Independent Kurdistan would fark over Iraq too.

Russia wants chaos in countries where US has influence as it weakens the US.
 
2017-09-21 08:36:17 AM  
Yea, but like, where's the evidence?

/even joking, that makes me feel dirty
 
2017-09-21 08:36:37 AM  
As I wrote in last night's MSNBC thread when I heard about this, I couldn't fathom that Manafort was still actively working against US interests after the election since a lot more eyes were on him.

I don't want Manafort flipped. I want him in front of a firing squad.
 
2017-09-21 08:37:02 AM  
Manafort is the embodiment of what happens when you trade your soul for political gain
 
2017-09-21 08:37:42 AM  

This text is now purple: Would it?


Yeah, I think so.  The Turks go apeshiat anytime someone mentions a Kurdish nation-state, and they'd probably devote some of their military resources to monitoring that border (by that I mean, they'll go paranoid in the southeast).  That splits their military, trying to defend too much on too many sides.  Which weakens them.
 
2017-09-21 08:38:05 AM  

kudayta: BeesNuts: kudayta: Regardless of international political implications and the associated struggles over the balance of power, can we agree that the Kurds deserve a homeland?

Let's take it a step further and say everyone deserves a home.

You're not wrong, everyone deserves a home.  Especially if we're still on board with the Westphalian sovereignty I mentioned up-thread.  The Kurds don't have a homeland right now though, and I'd like to change that, and that's what this thread is about.


Right.  But they don't deserve a homeland because they are kurds but because they are people.

Losing sight of that is treacherous.
 
2017-09-21 08:39:23 AM  

LarryDan43: Have to look a little further north, for Russia's Atlantic access.


Oh good catch.  That would keep them from being bottled up in the Black Sea by cutting off the Turkish Straits.
 
2017-09-21 08:39:43 AM  

BeesNuts: kudayta: BeesNuts: kudayta: Regardless of international political implications and the associated struggles over the balance of power, can we agree that the Kurds deserve a homeland?

Let's take it a step further and say everyone deserves a home.

You're not wrong, everyone deserves a home.  Especially if we're still on board with the Westphalian sovereignty I mentioned up-thread.  The Kurds don't have a homeland right now though, and I'd like to change that, and that's what this thread is about.

Right.  But they don't deserve a homeland because they are kurds but because they are people.

Losing sight of that is treacherous.


Fair point, and the reminder is helpful.  I don't think I've forgotten that.
 
2017-09-21 08:40:52 AM  

BeesNuts: kudayta: Regardless of international political implications and the associated struggles over the balance of power, can we agree that the Kurds deserve a homeland?

Let's take it a step further and say everyone deserves a home.


Oh, sure, today everyone deserves a place to stay--but then tomorrow it'll be enough to eat, and, the day after that, somewhere old heroes shuffle safely down the street.
 
2017-09-21 08:41:44 AM  

kudayta: Lochsteppe: kudayta: Regardless of international political implications and the associated struggles over the balance of power, can we agree that the Kurds deserve a homeland?

That sounds like something a Russian Kurdbot would say.

Yes, yes it is.  I can certainly sympathize with suspicions, but I'm not a jackass.  At least not that kind of jackass.

I just think if we're gonna go with this Westphalian model of sovereignty, then the Kurds deserve a seat at the table just like any other nation of people.  It's complicated though, I get that.  It would piss off the Turks, and the Turks are for better or for worse a member of NATO.  Consequently, it would strengthen the Russians and they're run by a god damned prick that invades his neighbors and hates gay folk.  And finally the Iranians would move against Iraq and try to seize power in the entire Gulf region, and while I love the Iranian people (hot women, good food, what more do you want?); their government is theocracy at its worst.



i think it's quite reasonable (perhaps most reasonable) to believe the kurdish people do deserve a homeland, but your question could be expanded to 'do the kurdish people deserve a homeland at this moment in this way,' which, in discussing what is 'deserved' would also help to include not just the inputs but the outputs - deciding whether such a course is the best, most appropriate thing to do (at this time) - so then perhaps a 'yes' could be qualified or extended to include some further ideas regarding security. my feeling is that there will be a 'yes' vote, but there certainly seems to be some discussion, caution and even trepidation, internally and externally, regarding moving forward in that direction (and obviously there are also arguments for 'no' - for example alex danilovich (professor, politics and international relations, university of kurdistan, hawler) argues 'we contend that like in canada, the territorial devolution of power and polycentric governance in iraq can bring peace to the divided society, nascent federalism can be adjusted and fine-tuned through limited constitutional amendments, judicial interpretation, fiscal arrangements and intergovernmental collaboration' in 'iraqi federalism and the kurds, learning to live together,' 2014).
 
2017-09-21 08:44:46 AM  

Muta: BalugaJoe: fusillade762: So why does Russia want an independent Kurdistan?

Russia hates the Turks.  Independent Kurdistan would cause them chaos.

Independent Kurdistan would fark over Iraq too.

Russia wants chaos in countries where US has influence as it weakens the US.


it'd fark over Iraq, weaken Turkey (and to a lesser extent Iran), boost Iranian regional power, and provide an alternative Mediterranean sea port access should Syria and Assad go tits up.
 
2017-09-21 08:47:02 AM  
/maybe some confusion there, sorry, kudayta, that quote i gave as argument for a 'no' was for supporting an argument for a 'no vote' - not for 'no, the kurdish people don't deserve a homeland'
 
2017-09-21 08:49:39 AM  
"Russia? What's there to investigate?!"

--Trumpers everywhere, no matter what
 
2017-09-21 08:50:34 AM  

21-7-b: kudayta: Lochsteppe: kudayta: Regardless of international political implications and the associated struggles over the balance of power, can we agree that the Kurds deserve a homeland?

That sounds like something a Russian Kurdbot would say.

Yes, yes it is.  I can certainly sympathize with suspicions, but I'm not a jackass.  At least not that kind of jackass.

I just think if we're gonna go with this Westphalian model of sovereignty, then the Kurds deserve a seat at the table just like any other nation of people.  It's complicated though, I get that.  It would piss off the Turks, and the Turks are for better or for worse a member of NATO.  Consequently, it would strengthen the Russians and they're run by a god damned prick that invades his neighbors and hates gay folk.  And finally the Iranians would move against Iraq and try to seize power in the entire Gulf region, and while I love the Iranian people (hot women, good food, what more do you want?); their government is theocracy at its worst.


i think it's quite reasonable (perhaps most reasonable) to believe the kurdish people do deserve a homeland, but your question could be expanded to 'do the kurdish people deserve a homeland at this moment in this way,' which, in discussing what is 'deserved' would also help to include not just the inputs but the outputs - deciding whether such a course is the best, most appropriate thing to do (at this time) - so then perhaps a 'yes' could be qualified or extended to include some further ideas regarding security. my feeling is that there will be a 'yes' vote, but there certainly seems to be some discussion, caution and even trepidation, internally and externally, regarding moving forward in that direction (and obviously there are also arguments for 'no' - for example alex danilovich (professor, politics and international relations, university of kurdistan, hawler) argues 'we contend that like in canada, the territorial devolution of power and polycentric governance in iraq c ...


It's entirely possible that my corpus callosum is hyperactive this morning due to medication, but when I read arguments like this I'm reminded of the many times in American history when (some) people said "Now is not the time" during events like the Civil Rights Movement, gay marriage, abolition of slavery and even the American Revolution itself.  I understand that jimmies will be rustled in the event of an independent Kurdistan, on multiple fronts, and the outcome cannot be precisely predicted.  But if we (I should say the Kurds here, I'm not Kurdish to my knowledge) wait, the perfect time to act may never come.

So I think the fair question to ask is "Right here, right now, do the Kurds deserve a homeland?".
 
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