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(KFVS 12)   "Go further without consent"   ( kfvs12.com) divider line
    More: Fail, trendy ad campaign, Birth control, safe sex initiative, Planned Parenthood League, New York Post, Consent Condoms, problematic prophylactic, condom company  
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9222 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Sep 2017 at 8:20 AM (12 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2017-09-14 08:41:54 AM  
17 votes:

Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.


As a male, i find ''No means no'' to be pretty self-explanatory.
2017-09-14 08:43:29 AM  
16 votes:

Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.


If by "guys," you mean "very few guys," you may be right. Dumb stereotyping is dumb.
2017-09-14 08:07:53 AM  
13 votes:
And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.
2017-09-14 10:10:06 AM  
9 votes:

orbister: Benevolent Misanthrope: As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups.

Who are you to speak about the experiences of other ethnic groups? Check your privilege.


I'm growing to hate that phrase.
2017-09-14 08:49:51 AM  
7 votes:

SanityIsAFullTimeJob: Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

If by "guys," you mean "very few guys," you may be right. Dumb stereotyping is dumb.


Maybe, but let's not pretend that we aren't a nation that let Donald Trump take high office.
2017-09-14 08:48:05 AM  
7 votes:

SanityIsAFullTimeJob: Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

If by "guys," you mean "very few guys," you may be right. Dumb stereotyping is dumb.


All of this. The vast majority of guys have no problem at all with the concept of consent. So it can't be that difficult to establish in someone.
2017-09-14 09:08:14 AM  
6 votes:

Smoking GNU: As a male, i find ''No means no'' to be pretty self-explanatory.


It's not just "no means no", it's also "not saying anything means no".
2017-09-14 01:08:32 PM  
5 votes:

Fano: Huh, people advising other people that they way they have sex is the way everyone should have sex. Well that's new.


If "Hey maybe it's a good idea to confirm consent throughout the process of sex until you're comfortable with one another in order to avoid potentially borderline rape-y situations" is a controversial opinion to you, might I suggest shutting the f*ck up?
2017-09-14 09:13:01 AM  
5 votes:

IDisposable: Smoking GNU: As a male, i find ''No means no'' to be pretty self-explanatory.

It's not just "no means no", it's also "not saying anything means no".


You make a good point. This consent stuff is all over the media here, and there's been loads of soap storylines, and public service type adverts aimed at young people.

I think a good rule of thumb for a young person would be, if the other person isn't doing any of the running , isn't making any of the moves ... you need to check they're up for it.
2017-09-14 09:04:53 AM  
5 votes:

Ker_Thwap: There's a condom ad for women now.  It's kind of stupid, and slays a giant straw man. "Don't let anyone tell you that women can't buy condoms!"  I thought it was kind of insulting.  Gendered condoms?  Really?



"Women can't buy condoms" said no sane person ever.
2017-09-14 08:46:42 AM  
5 votes:
America has lost it's sense of humor.  Actually, it has lost it's sense.
2017-09-14 07:56:53 AM  
5 votes:
img.fark.netView Full Size
2017-09-14 12:01:38 PM  
4 votes:

Lady J: orbister: Benevolent Misanthrope: As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups.

Who are you to speak about the experiences of other ethnic groups? Check your privilege.

I'm growing to hate that phrase.


It's used as a means of just shutting down a conversation. Rather than address any points of a statement, it calls to question the validity of the origin of the challenger as if the origins of the speaker mean something. It discriminates a person's voice or expression based on race, gender, religion, and income, and worse, it assumes that if a person falls into a specific combination of those categories, that anything that person says is invalid.

"You were born x so your opinion doesn't matter."
2017-09-14 10:04:13 AM  
4 votes:

Lady J: I think a good rule of thumb for a young person would be, if the other person isn't doing any of the running , isn't making any of the moves ... you need to check they're up for it.


I think we should stop stressing consent, much of the discussion of which is based on an intensely sexist notion that women can never be actively sexual and can only ever be coaxed into sex by a man. Instead we should stress pleasure to young people - if you are not giving the other person pleasure you should stop doing what you're doing and if you don't know whether you're giving the other person pleasure you should ask. If they're enjoying it, consent is there and if they are not enjoying it consent, however coaxed, coerced or wheedled, is worthless.

But hey, can you imagine how the Daily Mail would react if we told young people that sex is supposed to be fun for everybody involved?
2017-09-14 09:15:11 AM  
4 votes:

IDisposable: Smoking GNU: As a male, i find ''No means no'' to be pretty self-explanatory.

It's not just "no means no", it's also "not saying anything means no".


That's the trickier one for a lot of guys. "She was into it, by which I mean she didn't slap my face and say no, and I didn't want to jinx it by explicitly asking."
2017-09-14 08:47:48 AM  
4 votes:
This is why you never launch a campaign without market research and audience feedback. What kind of half-assed operation was this?
2017-09-14 03:07:03 PM  
3 votes:

IDisposable: Smoking GNU: As a male, i find ''No means no'' to be pretty self-explanatory.

It's not just "no means no", it's also "not saying anything means no".


As stated literally, this is way overboard.  While explicitly asking for verbal consent is something that should always be on the table when there's a large degree of uncertainty about what one of you wants, reading body language or expecting some active participation from your partner (i.e. cues that something isn't wanted) is not automatically "sex without consent", and the idea that every advance must be preceded by a verbal request lest the advance be considered assault is absolutely ludicrous.

It's silly to try to codify a human interaction as messy as sex that strictly, and the kind of people blind enough to non-verbal cues to need such strict rules are the same kind of people who will find a way to commit assaults around them regardless.
2017-09-14 12:36:21 PM  
3 votes:

Lady J: DontMakeMeComeBackThere: peterquince: Smoking GNU: Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

As a male, i find ''No means no'' to be pretty self-explanatory.

The challenge is convincing some guys (not directed at you, because you're clearly a supporter) that "no means no" isn't enough - but that "yes means yes".

Been married a long time now...so I've been out of the dating scene for a long time, which means this really isn't my subject or concern...but are times such that you REALLY have to stop what you  are doing, and ask your female partner (who is going along gleefully with everything so far, who has said not a word of protest) "Are you REALLY sure you want to have sex now?" "Really, really sure?" "I'm not pressuring you into anything?"   That seems really bizarre to me.  Again, not my scene anymore, but has it really gotten that bad with predatory men, and women who can't (I know that is a loaded word) stand up for themselves and just say "No."?

No of course not. The vast majority of people have sufficiently developed social skills that it's obvious whether someone wants to or not.

If someone is all over you, kissing you back, taking your clothes off as you take theirs off, etc, then you don't need to check they want to cos it's obvious.

But if someone is not responding at all, just stting there, or lying there, it probably is worth saying 'are you sure you want to do this?' It might be they're very nervous and they want you to take the lead, but they do wanna do it. But it might be that they don't, and they're scared to say no because they think you might be angry or tell everyone they ...


I think the biggest issue, and why there is such a big question mark on the "sensibility" of the entire conversation is that there are 2 sides to this subject.

On one side, you have how people actually interact with each other in intimate settings. Things get hot and heavy, and there is body language and a lot of physical touching and plenty of greenlight signs that everything is ok and things happen, sometimes people talk it out, other times people just read body language or follow their instinct. In most cases, I would throw a dart at this and say 80% (pulling that number out of my ass) of the time, there's no problems with this. However there is the 20% where things go wrong. A person is intoxicated; a person gets coerced; a person gets drugged - whatever the reason is, there is an issue where one party doesn't say anything to stop the other person or worse one person ignores what the other person is saying. That's the 20% where shiat goes wrong and when it goes wrong it can go wrong in a very traumatic and life altering way.

This is where side 2 of the topic comes in. The social conversation of the topic. By that I mean what is discussed in large groups, what the accepted narrative is, what the socially contracted procedures are when engaging in the activity. On this side, there are people who are forming the ideal "standard operating procedure" on how to engage in intimacy. It takes into account how to best engage in these situations that seeks to eliminate that 20% while at the same time keeping the other 80% happy. The issue you end up having here is that what is deemed acceptable varies differently from person to person. The conversation seeks to apply an SOP but because people view acceptability at different levels, an SOP still ends up screwing up about 20% of the people, it's just a different 20%. If the rules of engagement are , "Only Yes means Yes, and everything else means No" then you end up with people who make arguments that this rule ignores common sense. Or you have people who say this rule doesn't go far enough.

The problem with conversations like this is that everyone's line is different. No blanket SOP/ROE will account for 100% of the people 100% of the time and in social conversations, especially online, there will always be people who are passionate about subjects like this who want to "fix the problem" who wind up butting heads with people who simply want to go about their business and use what has worked for them that they have never had a problem with before. So you end up with hyperbolic statements like "Unless she is physically putting your dick in one of her holes, then it means no". Those kinds of statements come from people who are tired of hearing people argue what the line should be when everyone's line is different. You could literally have one woman saying "If I'm acting excited and ripping his clothes off, he doesn't need to stop and ask permission, it's implied" and another woman arguing "No, you are wrong, if nothing is said it's not consensual." while at the same time both women agreeing that "Non-consensual sex is rape".
2017-09-14 10:19:05 AM  
3 votes:
Nothing gets a woman more wet than having her sign a contract consenting to the act.

I think the cues for consent and desire are subtle but easily read if you know what to look for. I guess that doesn't apply to certain people who are socially awkward. This whole thing is overboard because no man rapes someone "accidentally".
2017-09-14 09:27:53 AM  
3 votes:
I'm automatically attracted to beautiful - I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. I just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.
2017-09-14 09:00:50 AM  
3 votes:

Lady J: SanityIsAFullTimeJob: Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

If by "guys," you mean "very few guys," you may be right. Dumb stereotyping is dumb.

All of this. The vast majority of guys have no problem at all with the concept of consent. So it can't be that difficult to establish in someone.


Yeah. The two dicks I've met who were into actual manipulation, even blackmail and attempted rape (he couldn't keep the erection) knew exactly what they were doing. Worse, they were amused by it.

/I have no qualms with the death penalty for 100% proven cases of rape
2017-09-14 08:37:29 AM  
3 votes:
Wife tells me no all the time. Apparently, cuddling up to her and pressing my erection into her back isn't sexy. Guess I'll just fark a donut.
2017-09-14 08:36:33 AM  
3 votes:
Benevolent Misanthrope:
We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

I understand you.  Speaking as a male, sometimes I am ashamed to be one of them.  But take heart, we're not all like that.
Speaking as a white male, sometimes I feel compelled to say the same thing to my black friends.
2017-09-14 08:22:54 AM  
3 votes:

Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.


img.fark.netView Full Size
This is why I have signed contracts...
2017-09-14 04:48:25 PM  
2 votes:

orbister: Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: If you decline, that's fine. Just know there's probably nothing further we can discuss moving forward and we will simply have to dismiss each other's views.

That's OK. I'm in the UK, it's mid evening and I have a lot to do before tomorrow, so if I don't reply much it's nothing personal.

Generally I prefer a Marxist approach to issues of race and ethnicity. The real conflict is and always has been rich versus poor, and where it is white versus non-white, as it undoubtedly is in many places, that's because "white" stands proxy for rich and "non-white" stands proxy for poor. Except, of course, that it's nt that simple, because there are poor white people and there are rich non-white people. As soon as people let themselves believe that the experience of others must be different because of ethnicity, they are basically allowing capital to divide labour and thereby rule over it. Solidarity, that's what we need, not division.


What I disagree with you on isn't the inference of what "must be" by these statements. My disagreement with you is specifically on the possibility for someone to reasonably claim to know that, on average, being a part of one type of group of people, experiences life or thing in life differently than another group of people. Race, gender, income, sexual identity, sexual preference, it makes no difference how you fill out that variable in On Average Group A experiences things in life differently than Group B.

The claim of saying As a member of Group A, my experiences are vastly different than Group B. Let's break a couple of things down.

First, when using the term know, in most cases save for some very specific instances, when someone says they know something, it means they have reasonably sufficient knowledge to be able to answer questions that demonstrate that knowledge. If I said I know the Spanish language, and yet the only words I could demonstrate were some very basic greetings and a few nouns or a slang term. Most would agree that I did not in fact demonstrate a reasonable knowledge of the Spanish language. If on the other hand I was able to hold an hour long conversation in Spanish with someone and there were minimal to no mistranslations, then most would agree that I had enough knowledge about the language to say that I know Spanish.

Second, is it possible for someone to gain reasonably sufficient knowledge about a topic to make the claim to know about it without having been present, immersed, or born into? Seeing as how we have entire fields of experts who make a living on subjects that they were never a part of, it's safe to say that yes it is possible to have reasonable knowledge of things such as cultures or race without having to specifically be a part of or born into them.

Next, how can we come to know the experiences of people in other groups if we were not born into or immersed in those groups? The answer here is pretty easy. We communicate with those people. They share with us their experiences. We share with them ours. By examining their collective experiences and comparing those to experiences shared by the people who share our own group, we can see a more clear picture. And by having empathy, we can reasonably extrapolate any negative differences between our experiences and theirs.

Finally, how can we determine the vastness of these differences. Again by examining the negative differences between what one group experiences over another, especially in the cases of interactions with people from a third type of group (white men vs black men when interacting with police for example) and mentally calculating the number of differences of these types of situations, we can say within reason that two groups of people do in fact experience things vastly different from each other.

All of this takes into consideration the type of data collected and how much and doing a quick mental calculation to figure out what the average seems to be, and basing those statements using those averages.

It is reasonable to say "As a thrill-seeker, my experiences on roller coasters are vastly different from acrophobics" (those with a fear of things like roller coasters or bungee jumping).

Just because race or gender is involved in the topic, that doesn't mean we should tip-toe around facts. If the fact is that on the average women experience dating vastly different then men, and this is something that is largely common knowledge, there is nothing offensive about it, and to state this fact, being a member of either of those groups, doesn't inherently mean you are speaking on behalf of all of that group, only that your experiences seem, by all accounts, to largely match the majority of others in that group.

Nothing more, nothing less.
2017-09-14 02:20:36 PM  
2 votes:

Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: So with that, are you in agreement that the dividing factor in the conversation are where people draw the lines of acceptable consent are different for each person?

That's how I read your statement, that we are in agreement.


I... OK, that sentence is kind of confusing.  I think I've parsed it right, but can't be sure.  

I think as far as my opinion goes -- as in, how I act in the world -- we're more in agreement than we are not, but I don't think our opinions matter all that much. 

I think what matters is the legal definition of things, and as far as that is concerned, it -- pretty much by definition -- _can't_ be something that differs on a per-person basis.  *A* singular line has to be drawn, and applied to all, and "no means no" is the best, clearest, most-fair-to-everyone standard that shouldn't be expanded or mucked with.  

Does that answer make sense?  Did I answer the right question?
2017-09-14 01:43:50 PM  
2 votes:

Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: Ok, so, you are also putting emphasis on vastly as the deciding factor in the knowledge claim and that you are inferring that she is judging the experiences of others as well.

Interesting.

Ok, mind if I ask you a few questions to pick your brain?


Three things concern me about "As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups. "

First of all, "as a white woman". That can, I grant you, be read in two ways. Either she is claiming that as a white woman she has special insight into these matters or she means "my experience as a white woman". But in the latter case she is effectively claiming to speak for all white women. Can she do that? How has she acquired the relevant knowledge? How does she know what parts of her experience are down to being white, what pats are down to being a woman and what are down to completely different factors - her education, job, sexuality, social background and so on.

Second, "is vastly different". Again, how does she know? By quantifying the extent to which her singular experience is different from those of everybody in other ethnic groupings, she is claiming knowledge of experiences across these groupings and

Third, "from other ethnic groups" indicates that those experiences can be grouped together by ethnicity, regardless of other social factors.

Maybe it as just a badly thought out version of "I recognise that my experience will have been shaped by being a white women in a society which is both racist and sexist, and that other people from other groups, and indeed my own, will have a wide range of experiences" but she chose the words she did and it's not wholly unreasonable to examine them a little further. Not least because of that mention of "my black and Latino friends" which sounds suspiciously like "some of my best friends are Jewish".
2017-09-14 01:28:27 PM  
2 votes:

karlandtanya: Have you ever just asked a woman directly what kind of tea she likes and then offered her a cup of that kind of tea? Just come right out and ask her directly: "I enjoy serving this kind of tea--do you like this kind? Would you like some tea later this evening? Or perhaps right now?"


That bloody tea video is terrible. "Yesterday I visited my friend. Last time I saw her she made me a cup of tea, which I drank. The time before that, she made me a cup of tea, which I drank. In fact, we've been meeting up twice a week for five years and every time she has made me a cup of tea and I've drunk it. But yesterday ... she made the tea without asking. The biatch raped me."

And, of course, it makes the usual prudish assumption that no women could ever want sex without being coaxed into it.
2017-09-14 01:11:28 PM  
2 votes:

Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: I think the biggest issue, and why there is such a big question mark on the "sensibility" of the entire conversation is that there are 2 sides to this subject.


And, really, two different subjects: consent, the concept, and consent as it applies to legal lines in the sand.

I find myself _morally_ agreeing with the idea that one should carry a higher standard of consent besides "well, there wasn't a 'no'."  That much strikes me as simply human, and polite... something I think one should be with another person even on a one night stand.

However, due to the very high potential for abuse (in the legal sense) that such a vague, unspecific non-standard carries, I would be extremely uncomfortable with anything other than "no equals no" being the legal divider between rape and all other forms of awkward, uncertain, probably-inexperienced sex.  There are cases where "not saying anything" has meant "yes," there are cases where it has meant "no," and most of the time, "not saying anything" is just too vague.  I don't think the law should see such a situation as "rape... you know, just in case."

And yes, I see a frightening number of people pushing for exactly that.  I think that's where a lot of the pushback against "extended consent" comes from.
2017-09-14 10:39:59 AM  
2 votes:

peterquince: Smoking GNU: Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

As a male, i find ''No means no'' to be pretty self-explanatory.

The challenge is convincing some guys (not directed at you, because you're clearly a supporter) that "no means no" isn't enough - but that "yes means yes".


Been married a long time now...so I've been out of the dating scene for a long time, which means this really isn't my subject or concern...but are times such that you REALLY have to stop what you  are doing, and ask your female partner (who is going along gleefully with everything so far, who has said not a word of protest) "Are you REALLY sure you want to have sex now?"  "Really, really sure?" "I'm not pressuring you into anything?"   That seems really bizarre to me.  Again, not my scene anymore, but has it really gotten that bad with predatory men, and women who can't (I know that is a loaded word) stand up for themselves and just say "No."?
2017-09-14 09:12:23 AM  
2 votes:

Smoking GNU: Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

As a male, i find ''No means no'' to be pretty self-explanatory.


The issue isn't just "No means no". It's also "Silence doesn't mean yes" and that there's nothing wrong with asking the person you're having sex with if they're enjoying something.
2017-09-14 09:11:01 AM  
2 votes:

OlderGuy: America has lost it's sense of humor.  Actually, it has lost it's sense.


I think the Internet has become more thorough oppression than small town ladies church groups.
2017-09-14 09:08:53 AM  
2 votes:
Who the hell has difficulty 'wrapping their head around the concept of consent'?  Those sociopaths understand it just fine, they chose to ignore it.  And they are the minority or else there would be open rape in the streets 24/7.
2017-09-14 09:07:44 AM  
2 votes:

pikov.yndropov: I didn't even bother reading TFA.  But WTF were they thinking to release something like that.  Unless it was done intentionally in order to feed the well oiled outrage machine.

/stay angry mis amigos


I almost wonder if, though, if we're just not the target audience for this. Are 17 year-olds reading it the same way? If it's just that I'm old, and other people are regularly communicating with rebus puzzles like this....it's not impossible that we're missing the point, not them.
2017-09-14 08:32:14 AM  
2 votes:
So I have to ask the donut for consent before I stick my dick in it?
2017-09-14 09:01:03 PM  
1 vote:

if_i_really_have_to: SanityIsAFullTimeJob: Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

If by "guys," you mean "very few guys," you may be right. Dumb stereotyping is dumb.

54% of college athletes and 38% of non-athletes admit to raping their partner
 

Of the sexually coercive behaviors listed on the survey, including "I used threats to make my partner have oral or anal sex," almost all met the legal definition of rape.

When campus rapists don't think they're rapists
  Nearly one-third of college men admit they might rape a woman if they could get away with it, a new study on campus sexual assault claims. Of those men, however, far fewer will admit this if the word rape is actually used during the course of questioning.

I can only figure that men get so angry about this subject because they're looking back at some of the things they did when they were "young and dumb" and realising they might have, just a little bit, raped someone, or did nothing while one of their friends raped someone.  That's not the way you want to think about yourself, or your buddies, is it?

/#VeryFewMen


Those studies use a lot of ambiguous language and questionable defininitions to get from here to there.

"Verbal coercion" and "threats" can be construed very loosely. You can verbally threaten someone with physical violence to get them to have sex with you, and you can also "threaten" to break up with them if they don't do anal. One of those is rape. The other is not. I'm extremely dubious about the percentages listed accurately reflecting the intentions of men. I will absolutely concede that college athletes are more likely to commit rapes though.
2017-09-14 07:33:52 PM  
1 vote:

SanityIsAFullTimeJob: Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

If by "guys," you mean "very few guys," you may be right. Dumb stereotyping is dumb.


54% of college athletes and 38% of non-athletes admit to raping their partner
 

Of the sexually coercive behaviors listed on the survey, including "I used threats to make my partner have oral or anal sex," almost all met the legal definition of rape.

When campus rapists don't think they're rapists
  Nearly one-third of college men admit they might rape a woman if they could get away with it, a new study on campus sexual assault claims. Of those men, however, far fewer will admit this if the word rape is actually used during the course of questioning.

I can only figure that men get so angry about this subject because they're looking back at some of the things they did when they were "young and dumb" and realising they might have, just a little bit, raped someone, or did nothing while one of their friends raped someone.  That's not the way you want to think about yourself, or your buddies, is it?

/#VeryFewMen
2017-09-14 05:48:12 PM  
1 vote:

Z-clipped: but rather the notion that's being pushed onto the younger generation that all consent must be verbal and explicit and that things like "implied consent", "using good judgement", or "having basic interpersonal skills" have no place in the discussion about sexual encounters.


Interestingly, I find that notion being pushed into the conversation _from_ the younger generation.  IME, it's older people who find the "extended" versions of consent (the ones that dismiss implied consent, good judgement, and having basic interpersonal skills) to be silly and counter to most real-life sexual situations.
2017-09-14 05:29:38 PM  
1 vote:

TWX: Z-clipped: IDisposable: Smoking GNU: As a male, i find ''No means no'' to be pretty self-explanatory.

It's not just "no means no", it's also "not saying anything means no".

As stated literally, this is way overboard.  While explicitly asking for verbal consent is something that should always be on the table when there's a large degree of uncertainty about what one of you wants, reading body language or expecting some active participation from your partner (i.e. cues that something isn't wanted) is not automatically "sex without consent", and the idea that every advance must be preceded by a verbal request lest the advance be considered assault is absolutely ludicrous.

It's silly to try to codify a human interaction as messy as sex that strictly, and the kind of people blind enough to non-verbal cues to need such strict rules are the same kind of people who will find a way to commit assaults around them regardless.

As I came to understand it, "no means no," was to prevent someone from asking a question with the phrasing that the response, "no" meant to proceed. The answer of no meant that sex was not consented to, regardless of how the question was asked.

The type of question where this applied was along the lines of, "Would you mind having sex?" where "No" could be interpreted as either no-the-respondent-wouldn't-mind-having-sex or no-the-respondent-doesn't-want-sex. Since sometimes the person responding can be bashful on the topic of sex, a somewhat demure response that really is intended as a negative might not be interpreted as a negative by the person asking if she turns away with just a touch of embarrassment as she says no.


Then you misunderstood. "No means no" is meant to dispel the notion present in some other cultures that women should play coy and reject all advances (even welcome ones) out of a sense of propriety, and that men shouldn't take no for an answer unless it's emphatic.

I wasn't actually originally commenting on "No means no", but rather the notion that's being pushed onto the younger generation that all consent must be verbal and explicit and that things like "implied consent", "using good judgement", or "having basic interpersonal skills" have no place in the discussion about sexual encounters.
2017-09-14 04:52:37 PM  
1 vote:

inglixthemad: Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

The mirror is true. Women tend to be passive and view consent as something that should be asked of them instead of proactively saying their wishes. If you don't want to use your voice you're abrogating your responsibility just as much as the guys. Deal with it.


You know what's funny? I've had sex with a LOT of women in my life, in a variety of contexts ranging from two marriages to the occasional anonymous one-nighter, and not once that I can remember has a single one of them ever explicitly asked my verbal permission before making an advance upon my person.  And I find this to be a good thing.
2017-09-14 04:31:24 PM  
1 vote:
I'm married...

Consent is completely different after 20 years. Is the child asleep enough to stay in her own farking room, does anyone have to work in the morning, everyone seen the back-cracker and in good physical working order?  We haven't even gotten to is anyone in the mood yet...

I remember when I used to bite her neck until she melted in my arms, pull her panties down and lift her skirt and hammer her up against he wall of her apartment before she had to go sit through class as a well farked 20 year old hot mess.

/Get off my lawn.
2017-09-14 03:29:51 PM  
1 vote:

Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: If you decline, that's fine. Just know there's probably nothing further we can discuss moving forward and we will simply have to dismiss each other's views.


That's OK. I'm in the UK, it's mid evening and I have a lot to do before tomorrow, so if I don't reply much it's nothing personal.

Generally I prefer a Marxist approach to issues of race and ethnicity. The real conflict is and always has been rich versus poor, and where it is white versus non-white, as it undoubtedly is in many places, that's because "white" stands proxy for rich and "non-white" stands proxy for poor. Except, of course, that it's nt that simple, because there are poor white people and there are rich non-white people. As soon as people let themselves believe that the experience of others must be different because of ethnicity, they are basically allowing capital to divide labour and thereby rule over it. Solidarity, that's what we need, not division.
2017-09-14 01:53:23 PM  
1 vote:

orbister: Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: Ok, so, you are also putting emphasis on vastly as the deciding factor in the knowledge claim and that you are inferring that she is judging the experiences of others as well.

Interesting.

Ok, mind if I ask you a few questions to pick your brain?

Three things concern me about "As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups. "

First of all, "as a white woman". That can, I grant you, be read in two ways. Either she is claiming that as a white woman she has special insight into these matters or she means "my experience as a white woman". But in the latter case she is effectively claiming to speak for all white women. Can she do that? How has she acquired the relevant knowledge? How does she know what parts of her experience are down to being white, what pats are down to being a woman and what are down to completely different factors - her education, job, sexuality, social background and so on.

Second, "is vastly different". Again, how does she know? By quantifying the extent to which her singular experience is different from those of everybody in other ethnic groupings, she is claiming knowledge of experiences across these groupings and

Third, "from other ethnic groups" indicates that those experiences can be grouped together by ethnicity, regardless of other social factors.

Maybe it as just a badly thought out version of "I recognise that my experience will have been shaped by being a white women in a society which is both racist and sexist, and that other people from other groups, and indeed my own, will have a wide range of experiences" but she chose the words she did and it's not wholly unreasonable to examine them a little further. Not least because of that mention of "my black and Latino friends" which sounds suspiciously like "some of my best friends are Jewish".


Oh I'm not planning on asking you to clarify further. We've established that I understand your statements and line of thinking. So that's not what these questions are going to be.

As a point of disclaimer, I am challenging your thoughts on this as I don't agree with you. So the line of questioning will be provacative, but I hope you trust that I will not presume to know your answers, or to insult you. If we get through these and you have a rational explanation for any discrepancies or contradictions in thought, then we can discuss those further.

This is me, actively listening to your thoughts as I will be asking further questions that are tailored around your answers.
2017-09-14 01:24:25 PM  
1 vote:

karlandtanya: Ker_Thwap: [iFrame https://www.youtube.com/embed/oQbei5JGiT8 - 480x270]

Have you ever just asked a woman directly what kind of tea she likes and then offered her a cup of that kind of tea?  Just come right out and ask her directly:    "I enjoy serving this kind of tea--do you like this kind?  Would you like some tea later this evening?  Or perhaps right now?"

It works just great. 17 years (this Christmas) later it's *still* awesome.


I got one of these for Christmas two years ago, and it's awesome. I have have any kind of tea I want at any time!

img.fark.netView Full Size

You really can't go wrong with Zojirushi.
2017-09-14 01:22:00 PM  
1 vote:

Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: Ok, let me see if I understand you correctly. You are saying when she uses the words "My experiences differ from that of other ethnic groups" that she is making a knowledge claim on what other ethnic groups experiences are?


Well of course she is, because otherwise she can't know that her experience is "vastly different", not just different, from theirs. And she write that "As a white woman". What is it about being a white woman that lets her judge the experiences of others?
2017-09-14 01:14:37 PM  
1 vote:

Ker_Thwap: [iFrame https://www.youtube.com/embed/oQbei5JGiT8 - 480x270]


Have you ever just asked a woman directly what kind of tea she likes and then offered her a cup of that kind of tea?  Just come right out and ask her directly:    "I enjoy serving this kind of tea--do you like this kind?  Would you like some tea later this evening?  Or perhaps right now?"

It works just great. 17 years (this Christmas) later it's *still* awesome.

Treating the people you want to fark like rational human beings--what a concept!
2017-09-14 12:53:38 PM  
1 vote:

Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: orbister: Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: Lady J: orbister: Benevolent Misanthrope: As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups.

Who are you to speak about the experiences of other ethnic groups? Check your privilege.

I'm growing to hate that phrase.

It's used as a means of just shutting down a conversation. Rather than address any points of a statement, it calls to question the validity of the origin of the challenger as if the origins of the speaker mean something. It discriminates a person's voice or expression based on race, gender, religion, and income, and worse, it assumes that if a person falls into a specific combination of those categories, that anything that person says is invalid.

"You were born x so your opinion doesn't matter."

You are absolutely right, but in this case the poster had claimed that her status as a white woman allowed her to speak about the experiences of other groups. She was explicitly claiming privilege for herself, so in this case I think it was OK to point that out.

Ok, let me see if I understand you correctly. You are saying when she uses the words "My experiences differ from that of other ethnic groups" that she is making a knowledge claim on what other ethnic groups experiences are?

I should also add in: And there's no way she can *know* what their experiences are like because she can never live through them.

Does that sound about right?


Oh no she's also "othering " them, depending on the way you feel about her eating crackers.
2017-09-14 12:45:04 PM  
1 vote:

orbister: Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: Lady J: orbister: Benevolent Misanthrope: As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups.

Who are you to speak about the experiences of other ethnic groups? Check your privilege.

I'm growing to hate that phrase.

It's used as a means of just shutting down a conversation. Rather than address any points of a statement, it calls to question the validity of the origin of the challenger as if the origins of the speaker mean something. It discriminates a person's voice or expression based on race, gender, religion, and income, and worse, it assumes that if a person falls into a specific combination of those categories, that anything that person says is invalid.

"You were born x so your opinion doesn't matter."

You are absolutely right, but in this case the poster had claimed that her status as a white woman allowed her to speak about the experiences of other groups. She was explicitly claiming privilege for herself, so in this case I think it was OK to point that out.


That's a little over the top, she's pretty much stating the opposite.

I think it's obvious at worst. It's not like all people of the same ethnic group have similar experiences to begin with.
2017-09-14 12:44:57 PM  
1 vote:

orbister: Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: Lady J: orbister: Benevolent Misanthrope: As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups.

Who are you to speak about the experiences of other ethnic groups? Check your privilege.

I'm growing to hate that phrase.

It's used as a means of just shutting down a conversation. Rather than address any points of a statement, it calls to question the validity of the origin of the challenger as if the origins of the speaker mean something. It discriminates a person's voice or expression based on race, gender, religion, and income, and worse, it assumes that if a person falls into a specific combination of those categories, that anything that person says is invalid.

"You were born x so your opinion doesn't matter."

You are absolutely right, but in this case the poster had claimed that her status as a white woman allowed her to speak about the experiences of other groups. She was explicitly claiming privilege for herself, so in this case I think it was OK to point that out.


Ok, let me see if I understand you correctly. You are saying when she uses the words "My experiences differ from that of other ethnic groups" that she is making a knowledge claim on what other ethnic groups experiences are?
2017-09-14 12:34:15 PM  
1 vote:
Sometimes the message doesn't get across...

img.fark.netView Full Size

img.fark.netView Full Size
2017-09-14 11:59:21 AM  
1 vote:
Tea Consent
Youtube oQbei5JGiT8
2017-09-14 11:52:01 AM  
1 vote:

Smoking GNU: Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

As a male, i find ''No means no'' to be pretty self-explanatory.


I do too.

NOMEANSNO - The River
Youtube xIU85B3MDTM
2017-09-14 11:22:27 AM  
1 vote:

adamatari: HAMMERTOE: adamatari: Honestly? There are some rapists who don't know, but most of them know. They know well and they do it over and over. I think Bill Cosby knew he was a rapist. I think so did Polanski. I think they just don't care and think they'll get away with it just like they did however many times before.

I do believe you're at least partially right, at least in cases where the perpetrator is an "elite". But there are also cases where the rapist is of the more common "garden variety". I think they might be confused by conflicting messages. "Grab her by the pu$$y" is a generally agreed-upon vile and disgusting expression of that mentality, but what if she's clearly a "one-percenter" and we strongly suspect that's where her money is? Does she still retain her right to privacy of her person and belongings if enough of us sell our votes to a politician who promises us to strip her of them?

Perhaps my examples were bad. There was an article, when they finally got around to testing rape kits in Detroit or somewhere, they found the DNA pointed to many rapes being committed by a few men. Serial rapists. They usually get away with it, and these are unknown people in inner cities acting in the same way as those celebrities. I'd bet class actually makes little difference - if your MO is to target people who are unlikely to tell, you'll go a long way before you get caught, if ever.


It's not that a woman is "unlikely to tell". If the rape kit is sitting on the shelf for years until tested, she obviously did  more than just "tell", she did what she was supposed to do and the police and society is what failed her. And it is knowing that most will be accused of giving a false accusation and society and culture blames her that prevents many from even reporting it in the first place. It's also not even that these rapists are all "unkown" either..it's that their victims are oftentimes just not believed.

We have a president who advocates assault on women and police brutality and wants to make this into a fascist totalitarian state. He is the supposed "example" of what this country represents, and it is the face of a rapist. This whole country is farked. And many of us without consent at all.
2017-09-14 11:21:37 AM  
1 vote:

IDisposable: If she explicitly says yes and then never revokes that consent, then presumably she is still consenting.


Good grief.
2017-09-14 11:19:24 AM  
1 vote:

DontMakeMeComeBackThere: peterquince: Smoking GNU: Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

As a male, i find ''No means no'' to be pretty self-explanatory.

The challenge is convincing some guys (not directed at you, because you're clearly a supporter) that "no means no" isn't enough - but that "yes means yes".

Been married a long time now...so I've been out of the dating scene for a long time, which means this really isn't my subject or concern...but are times such that you REALLY have to stop what you  are doing, and ask your female partner (who is going along gleefully with everything so far, who has said not a word of protest) "Are you REALLY sure you want to have sex now?" "Really, really sure?" "I'm not pressuring you into anything?"   That seems really bizarre to me.  Again, not my scene anymore, but has it really gotten that bad with predatory men, and women who can't (I know that is a loaded word) stand up for themselves and just say "No."?


No of course not. The vast majority of people have sufficiently developed social skills that it's obvious whether someone wants to or not.

If someone is all over you, kissing you back, taking your clothes off as you take theirs off, etc, then you don't need to check they want to cos it's obvious.

But if someone is not responding at all, just stting there, or lying there, it probably is worth saying 'are you sure you want to do this?' It might be they're very nervous and they want you to take the lead, but they do wanna do it. But it might be that they don't, and they're scared to say no because they think you might be angry or tell everyone they're frigid.

I honestly think this mostly is only an issue with young, inexperienced people, just starting out, or people with low self esteem, who are a bit damaged.
2017-09-14 10:48:25 AM  
1 vote:

HAMMERTOE: adamatari: Honestly? There are some rapists who don't know, but most of them know. They know well and they do it over and over. I think Bill Cosby knew he was a rapist. I think so did Polanski. I think they just don't care and think they'll get away with it just like they did however many times before.

I do believe you're at least partially right, at least in cases where the perpetrator is an "elite". But there are also cases where the rapist is of the more common "garden variety". I think they might be confused by conflicting messages. "Grab her by the pu$$y" is a generally agreed-upon vile and disgusting expression of that mentality, but what if she's clearly a "one-percenter" and we strongly suspect that's where her money is? Does she still retain her right to privacy of her person and belongings if enough of us sell our votes to a politician who promises us to strip her of them?


I have read the last three lines five times and have no idea what you are saying.

The women Donald Trump allegedly abused were not one-percenters, it's not okay to rape rich women, and every person - man or woman - has a right to their person and belongings.
2017-09-14 10:29:26 AM  
1 vote:

Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.


Honestly? There are some rapists who don't know, but most of them know. They know well and they do it over and over. I think Bill Cosby knew he was a rapist. I think so did Polanski. I think they just don't care and think they'll get away with it just like they did however many times before.
2017-09-14 10:17:09 AM  
1 vote:

Benevolent Misanthrope: theflatline: Benevolent Misanthrope: yoyopro: Benevolent Misanthrope:
We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

I understand you.  Speaking as a male, sometimes I am ashamed to be one of them.  But take heart, we're not all like that.
Speaking as a white male, sometimes I feel compelled to say the same thing to my black friends.

Yeah - I know what you mean. As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups. And even though I'm gay, that's not obvious. It's not the same as being part of a visible minority. I often want to say to my black and Latino friends, "Yes,  I get it that I enjoy privilege. Please don't think I'm like those turds in Charlottesville."

Are you Canadian?

"Visible minority".

No, but used to live there and I like that shorthand.  I also use "newcomer" instead of "immigrant".  It's just nicer.


People is what I see.  I never knew I was a visible minority until I went to Canada.  I found it quite insulting.  I have spent my life between the south and South America, only place my browness was of any contention was the NE of the US and Canada.
2017-09-14 10:09:26 AM  
1 vote:

Benevolent Misanthrope: theflatline: Benevolent Misanthrope: yoyopro: Benevolent Misanthrope:
We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

I understand you.  Speaking as a male, sometimes I am ashamed to be one of them.  But take heart, we're not all like that.
Speaking as a white male, sometimes I feel compelled to say the same thing to my black friends.

Yeah - I know what you mean. As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups. And even though I'm gay, that's not obvious. It's not the same as being part of a visible minority. I often want to say to my black and Latino friends, "Yes,  I get it that I enjoy privilege. Please don't think I'm like those turds in Charlottesville."

Are you Canadian?

"Visible minority".

No, but used to live there and I like that shorthand.  I also use "newcomer" instead of "immigrant".  It's just nicer.


It's only nicer if you'er a xenophobe.
2017-09-14 10:08:28 AM  
1 vote:

Benevolent Misanthrope: I also use "newcomer" instead of "immigrant". It's just nicer.


It's not nice. It's patronising and arrogant to suggest that immigrants are "new", with the connotations of uneducated, ill-informed and inexperienced. I have a relative who came to this country in 1961 - would you call him a "newcomer"?
2017-09-14 10:01:06 AM  
1 vote:

Benevolent Misanthrope: No, but used to live there and I like that shorthand.  I also use "newcomer" instead of "immigrant".  It's just nicer.


It's not nicer, it's dishonest. Don't let them make "immigrant" a dirty word because it's not. Many immigrants I know have been here way longer than I've been alive -- I'm the relative newcomer in that situatuon.
2017-09-14 09:59:49 AM  
1 vote:

IDisposable: it's also "not saying anything means no".


That's a very dubious notion. Are you really claiming that consent is withdrawn if either party stops talking during sex?
2017-09-14 09:50:58 AM  
1 vote:

theflatline: Benevolent Misanthrope: yoyopro: Benevolent Misanthrope:
We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

I understand you.  Speaking as a male, sometimes I am ashamed to be one of them.  But take heart, we're not all like that.
Speaking as a white male, sometimes I feel compelled to say the same thing to my black friends.

Yeah - I know what you mean. As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups. And even though I'm gay, that's not obvious. It's not the same as being part of a visible minority. I often want to say to my black and Latino friends, "Yes,  I get it that I enjoy privilege. Please don't think I'm like those turds in Charlottesville."

Are you Canadian?

"Visible minority".


No, but used to live there and I like that shorthand.  I also use "newcomer" instead of "immigrant".  It's just nicer.
2017-09-14 09:18:20 AM  
1 vote:
Before I have sex, I sit down with a woman and teach her how to say 'Yes' and 'No' in half a dozen different languages. Then I ask her if she's okay with us proceeding, and ask for her consent in a specific language.

If she can't correctly say 'Yes' in that particular language during this quiz, we don't move forward.

Or at least that's how I imagine it would go. Also, I'm not certain what happens after. Ladies, call me.
2017-09-14 09:06:22 AM  
1 vote:

Smoking GNU: Benevolent Misanthrope: And they sold the fark out of them, too.

We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

As a male, i find ''No means no'' to be pretty self-explanatory.


The challenge is convincing some guys (not directed at you, because you're clearly a supporter) that "no means no" isn't enough - but that "yes means yes".
2017-09-14 08:53:47 AM  
1 vote:
There's a condom ad for women now.  It's kind of stupid, and slays a giant straw man. "Don't let anyone tell you that women can't buy condoms!"  I thought it was kind of insulting.  Gendered condoms?  Really?
2017-09-14 08:47:24 AM  
1 vote:

yoyopro: Benevolent Misanthrope:
We had a thread about this recently - how rapists don't know they're rapists and the whole idea of consent being difficult for many men to get their brains around.  This makes me think guys feel like consent for sex is a joke - something you do because she might falsely accuse you of rape later, but everybody knows it's just another PC-stupid thing.

I understand you.  Speaking as a male, sometimes I am ashamed to be one of them.  But take heart, we're not all like that.
Speaking as a white male, sometimes I feel compelled to say the same thing to my black friends.


Yeah - I know what you mean. As a white woman, my experience is vastly different from other ethnic groups. And even though I'm gay, that's not obvious. It's not the same as being part of a visible minority. I often want to say to my black and Latino friends, "Yes,  I get it that I enjoy privilege. Please don't think I'm like those turds in Charlottesville."
2017-09-14 08:37:04 AM  
1 vote:
mmmmmmmmm.....lack of consent

i.imgur.comView Full Size


//and gummi bears
 
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