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(KSL Salt Lake City)   Salt Lake mayor: "At least 6 separate policies were broken in arrest of nurse who wasn't breaking any"   ( ksl.com) divider line
    More: Followup, salt lake city, Police, lake city police, Constable, Law enforcement agency  
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10427 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Sep 2017 at 12:49 AM (12 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-09-14 09:36:06 AM  

Carousel Beast: You got it. It's obviously the fault of Republicans that police unions rule everything, even in the majority of cities that Democrats have had iron control over for the past half century. It must be those evil Republicans.


You missed his point almost entirely...well done :)
 
2017-09-14 09:42:46 AM  

BafflerMeal: Chair of city council more or less. Actual unitary executive mayors in the US would typically have more power.


This text is now purple: Burgermeisters had a level of sovereignty that mayors usually didn't.


Fight!
 
2017-09-14 09:43:32 AM  

veranbryce: Since everyone is appropriating terms these days, why hasn't "Blue Privilage" become a thing yet?


Because it's an ACTUAL privilege, rather than the "privilege" of not getting your ass beat.
It would make the other types of privileges look stupid in comparison.
 
2017-09-14 09:45:59 AM  
That's a very nice bit of fluff by their IA that even goes to compliment the nurse for following procedure and contacting her superiors in refusing.

Still has zero consequence or actual penalties shown. This is frantic CYA paperwork to avoid the forthcoming lawsuit. Nurse needs to sue the everloving fark out of the department.
 
2017-09-14 09:46:10 AM  

Smoking GNU: Romulon Malapingi: namegoeshere: You know what would go a long way toward healing the rift making police fark over the justice system every chance they getin this community?  Charging these two for their crimes.

I'm sorry, i must be reading this wrong or you might have left out a word or something. Are you saying that charging police with a crime they committed on video would fark over the justice system??


I read that as him saying that holding criminal cops accountable for their actions would inspire the rest of the "good cops" to fark over the justice system out of spite. Or put another way, he's saying there are no good cops, just bad cops and cops who cover for bad cops.
 
2017-09-14 09:52:35 AM  

Big_Fat_Liar: JohnnyApocalypse: Birnone: Just from a non legal, regular person standpoint, the part of this whole thing that really puzzles me is 'arresting a nurse' part. Doctors, nurses, everyone who works in a hospital really, these are people who if I was a cop they would have to do something exceptional for me to want to arrest them. One day I may be coming into this hospital in bad condition, I want them to either treat me like anyone else or maybe even like me. The last thing I'd want is there to be bad blood between us.

Actually, the part that REALLY gets me is why were they so intent on getting this guy's blood drawn, and enough to arrest a nurse for not doing so, which they had to know was illegal to do? Is it just a case of "drunk on my badge"? Was there something else going on? This is mystifying. I just can't think of any good reason this happened.

You are the victim of fake news.  90% or more of articles from lame news sites regurgitated a watered down narrative that was reported early on, because 90% of journalists suck.   Go find better sources and you will find it was actually worse than that.  The cop was a trained phlebotomist and is qualified to draw blood.  The nurse refused to help this cop violate a person's constitutional rights.  She would not lead this cop to the location of the unconscious victim.   That is what set him off.

Search "jeff payne phlebotomist" to read articles written by journalists.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/09/01/547840028/-somebody-​help-me-utah-nurse-cried-as-police-detective-roughly-arrested-her


I didn't know he was a phlebotomist. However, I don't think "fake news" is an accurate term here. It's misreporting and sloppy journalism. There's a big difference. Fake news is a purposeful misreporting or blatantly false reporting for political or monetary reasons. Newspapers mess up all the time and send out corrections to their earlier reports, if those mistakes are caught.

I think holding the line on fake news vs. sloppy journalism is a good thing. Intent means something.

ALSO, that he "was sent" to draw the blood puts a twist on all of this that isn't being fully explored. Who sent him? Was it the watch commander who sent him? Or someone higher up? That would answer my original question that I couldn't figure out. Did the police know at the time that the trucker victim was an off duty cop? Would that have made any difference in what they planned?
 
2017-09-14 09:55:33 AM  

Dodger: anustart: twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?

Because Mayor's aren't Burgermeisters. They can't just fire cops like it's an episode of Starsky and Hutch.

The cops should be fired (and charged, frankly) but they are still entitled to the same due process that they tried to deny for that Nurse.

I have gone my entire 55 years, 9 of which were in Germany, believing that the word "burgermeister" translated directly to English as "mayor". So if mayors aren't burgermeisters (and inversely, burgermeisters aren't mayors) then what are burgermeisters?

/Wow - That reads snider than I intended. Serious question.


I'ts my bad, really.  I *should* have been more clear.  In my mind I was referencing the old-school Burgermeisters in places like Bavaria and Bohemia who wielded tremendous local power back in the day.
 
2017-09-14 10:05:03 AM  
I hope that nurse sues the ever-loving fark out of the SLCPD, and everything they ever thought they could own.
 
2017-09-14 10:07:31 AM  

Birnone: Just from a non legal, regular person standpoint, the part of this whole thing that really puzzles me is 'arresting a nurse' part. Doctors, nurses, everyone who works in a hospital really, these are people who if I was a cop they would have to do something exceptional for me to want to arrest them. One day I may be coming into this hospital in bad condition, I want them to either treat me like anyone else or maybe even like me. The last thing I'd want is there to be bad blood between us.


Fortunately they tend to be a lot more professional than this guy, and would treat him anyway.
 
2017-09-14 10:12:03 AM  

Birnone: Bonzo_1116: I think you need to put yourself in this guy's shoes.

Specifically his shiny power tripping boots.

You're right. It's just that I would know that no hospital has extra staff just hanging around in case their needed. If I, as a cop, drag a nurse out of there for any reason, now they are understaffed. Now I have farked up a whole shiatload of things for everyone. The doctors, nurses, patients...everyone is going to be impacted. There's no way I'm pulling one of those people out of there unless they are doing something so bad the patients are better off short a nurse.


If any of her patients died, I wonder if their family could win a wrongful death suit against the guy.

Even if they wouldn't, they'd probably be able to take it to trial, so there'd at least be the chance.
 
2017-09-14 10:13:13 AM  
I'm sure the mayor will pressure the police chief to impose punishment up to and including termination.  But remember the police officers' union and the mayor/chief are opposing forces, so even if the chief wants to fire that jackass, he's limited in his ability to do so by the terms of the collective bargaining agreement and whatever progressive discipline process is laid out in that agreement.  So for those who are saying "why hasn't he been fired yet?" - it's a process that is only just starting.  It may result in termination, but only after all the hoops have been jumped through and all appeals exhausted.
 
2017-09-14 10:32:06 AM  

twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?


It's not they killed anyone, then again that wouldn't have gotten them fired either.
 
2017-09-14 10:34:29 AM  

Wanebo: FTFA

"Those policies include conduct unbecoming by a police employee, courtesy in public contacts, policy regarding arrests, misdemeanor citations, situations requiring a report, law enforcement code of ethics and city policy regarding standards of conduct for employees "

Really. You illegally detain someone and THAT'S what you complain about?


It's trying to protect the city against being liable while still showing police some support.
 
2017-09-14 10:35:21 AM  

cefm: I'm sure the mayor will pressure the police chief to impose punishment up to and including termination.  But remember the police officers' union and the mayor/chief are opposing forces, so even if the chief wants to fire that jackass, he's limited in his ability to do so by the terms of the collective bargaining agreement and whatever progressive discipline process is laid out in that agreement.  So for those who are saying "why hasn't he been fired yet?" - it's a process that is only just starting.  It may result in termination, but only after all the hoops have been jumped through and all appeals exhausted.


Fire the Chief. Responsibility starts at the top. Once a few chiefs get fired, the message will get out, and all of this " the union is tying my hands" will evaporate. Discipline and lawful behavior in an enterprise begin at the top. Fire the Chief.
 
2017-09-14 10:40:00 AM  

This text is now purple: Fiona Nine Tails: Have you ever heard the GOP talk about police unions having too much power?

Have you ever heard the DNC complain about this?

Neither party complains about it, which is the problem.


Actually...that's a good point.  I've heard local politicians but I don't think I've ever heard anyone at the state/federal level complain about it.
 
2017-09-14 10:49:41 AM  

hobbes0022: Your being arrest for "obstructing justice"


...is most unfortunate?
 
2017-09-14 10:51:21 AM  

trappedspirit: hobbes0022: Your being arrest for "obstructing justice"

...is most unfortunate?


Yes... I am a moron
 
2017-09-14 10:58:31 AM  

Wanebo: FTFA

"Those policies include conduct unbecoming by a police employee, courtesy in public contacts, policy regarding arrests, misdemeanor citations, situations requiring a report, law enforcement code of ethics and city policy regarding standards of conduct for employees "

Really. You illegally detain someone and THAT'S what you complain about?


Reminds me of this:

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-09-14 10:58:36 AM  
Can't we all agree that there is blame on both sides?
 
2017-09-14 11:32:15 AM  

Weaver95: ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.

so again:

Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy.  time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will to kill any black person they want.  violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws.  time to get fired: 30 days and counting.


Small adjustment.
 
2017-09-14 12:16:46 PM  

JohnnyApocalypse: Big_Fat_Liar: JohnnyApocalypse: Birnone: Just from a non legal, regular person standpoint, the part of this whole thing that really puzzles me is 'arresting a nurse' part. Doctors, nurses, everyone who works in a hospital really, these are people who if I was a cop they would have to do something exceptional for me to want to arrest them. One day I may be coming into this hospital in bad condition, I want them to either treat me like anyone else or maybe even like me. The last thing I'd want is there to be bad blood between us.

Actually, the part that REALLY gets me is why were they so intent on getting this guy's blood drawn, and enough to arrest a nurse for not doing so, which they had to know was illegal to do? Is it just a case of "drunk on my badge"? Was there something else going on? This is mystifying. I just can't think of any good reason this happened.

You are the victim of fake news.  90% or more of articles from lame news sites regurgitated a watered down narrative that was reported early on, because 90% of journalists suck.   Go find better sources and you will find it was actually worse than that.  The cop was a trained phlebotomist and is qualified to draw blood.  The nurse refused to help this cop violate a person's constitutional rights.  She would not lead this cop to the location of the unconscious victim.   That is what set him off.

Search "jeff payne phlebotomist" to read articles written by journalists.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/09/01/547840028/-somebody-​help-me-utah-nurse-cried-as-police-detective-roughly-arrested-her

I didn't know he was a phlebotomist. However, I don't think "fake news" is an accurate term here. It's misreporting and sloppy journalism. There's a big difference. Fake news is a purposeful misreporting or blatantly false reporting for political or monetary reasons. Newspapers mess up all the time and send out corrections to their earlier reports, if those mistakes are caught.

I think holding the line on ...


It's news that simply doesn't care about about accuracy.  How is it possible to write as an alleged professional on this stuff and be less informed than I am?  Sure, they didn't manufacture the story out of thin air, but it is fake news in that they put no real effort into making it newsworthy.  All they really care about is the ad revenue that drives their salaries.  Not reporting this seemingly minor detail also means not asking important questions concerning people who are notorious for not really believing in the constitutional rights of others having the ability to walk into a hospital and have access to patients under color of authority.  Do we really want to let meatheads who go to the wrong address and shoot people and their dogs draw blood from people?  Questions that won't get asked.
 
2017-09-14 12:22:32 PM  
Could have been worse, at least she was white.
 
2017-09-14 12:24:37 PM  

Weaver95: Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy. time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will. violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws. time to get fired: 30 days and counting.


mcmnky: You: no union.
Police: union.


Yup.
 
2017-09-14 01:22:01 PM  

SocratesNutz: Can't we all agree that there is blame on both sides?


You mean both the state & Salt Lake City police forces?  One conducted a high-speed chase that led to the crash killing the driver of the car & injuring the truck driver.  The other attempted to illegally obtain a blood sample then illegally arrested a nurse for refusing to let him do that.

The nurse did nothing wrong.   Neither did the truck driver.

What other sides are there?
 
2017-09-14 01:25:13 PM  

GN Nymph: SocratesNutz: Can't we all agree that there is blame on both sides?

You mean both the state & Salt Lake City police forces?  One conducted a high-speed chase that led to the crash killing the driver of the car & injuring the truck driver.  The other attempted to illegally obtain a blood sample then illegally arrested a nurse for refusing to let him do that.

The nurse did nothing wrong.   Neither did the truck driver.

What other sides are there?


I think you may have overestimated his sincerity and underestimated his sarcasm.
 
2017-09-14 01:31:12 PM  

erewhon: Birnone: Just from a non legal, regular person standpoint, the part of this whole thing that really puzzles me is 'arresting a nurse' part. Doctors, nurses, everyone who works in a hospital really, these are people who if I was a cop they would have to do something exceptional for me to want to arrest them. One day I may be coming into this hospital in bad condition, I want them to either treat me like anyone else or maybe even like me. The last thing I'd want is there to be bad blood between us.

The cops are betting their buddies' lives that medical personnel are each and everyone,more professional than they are, all the time. Because it's not like the staff is going to be looking out for a particular douchebag cop, they're just going to see a cop. The douchebaggery a cop dishes out today might be returned tomorrow, but it's going to be the next cop who is sick or injured who pays the price.


Take into account the differing mindsets that folks going into these respective professions must have. My wife is a nurse. She has been spat on, hit, threatened, verbally abused, you name it, by patients. In every....single.....instance....she has STILL performed her duty of caring for the patient in every way possible. Because she is a nurse. That's the nurse mindset. They are caregivers....not enforcers.

Take this in contrast with the typical mindset if someone who seeks a career in enforcement. Its a whole different ballpark. Hell it ain't even the same sport. My money is on the nurses and doctors caring for the patient professionally and responsibly.
 
2017-09-14 01:47:34 PM  
And all 6 relate to "trying to pin the blame on another cop".
/you can tell how much they care about those policies
//since the cop[s] are on the payroll
///do you think you would know about it if the patient wasn't a cop?
 
2017-09-14 01:58:18 PM  

farkmedown: Wanebo: FTFA

"Those policies include conduct unbecoming by a police employee, courtesy in public contacts, policy regarding arrests, misdemeanor citations, situations requiring a report, law enforcement code of ethics and city policy regarding standards of conduct for employees "

Really. You illegally detain someone and THAT'S what you complain about?

Reminds me of this:

[img.fark.net image 850x425]


Klingon justice is a unique point of view, Mister President.
 
2017-09-14 02:28:16 PM  

twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?


They have received the heaviest punishment possible-- promotion and salary increase. Also a medal for participation.
 
2017-09-14 03:00:25 PM  

twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?


Unions.

Also, I love how their findings are 'policy' violations.
 
2017-09-14 04:30:18 PM  
So does anyone here think that something is going to be done to combat the "thin blue line, us vs everyone else" mentality that almost every police officer espouses? No? Didn't think so.
 
2017-09-14 04:37:57 PM  

IRQ12: Also, I love how their findings are 'policy' violations.


What's wrong with that?  He's not saying they weren't crimes, because that's not for him to determine. All he's saying is that regardless of any other rules or laws, they ALSO violated department policy.
 
2017-09-14 05:14:54 PM  

Weaver95: ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.



Termination procedures are written into the union contracts.  If you'd like cushy procedures like that then form a union.
 
2017-09-14 06:12:48 PM  

Weaver95: ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.

so again:

Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy.  time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will.  violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws.  time to get fired: 30 days and counting.


You: no union, I'm gonna guess, is the biggest difference.
 
2017-09-14 06:13:22 PM  

mcmnky: Weaver95: ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.

so again:

Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy.  time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will.  violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws.  time to get fired: 30 days and counting.

You: no union.
Police: union.


Dammit, should have scrolled down ONE MORE POST...
 
2017-09-14 06:15:21 PM  

Weaver95: mcmnky: You: no union.
Police: union

me: state worker.  Yes, I have a union.  No, they will not protect me if I clearly violate procedure.  I've seen state workers get fired inside of 72 hours for violating security procedures and guide lines.  do NOT dick with those rules, they WILL fire us if we do.  sexual harassment and/or religious discrimination are also two other things that result in more or less instant firings.


Them your union sucks donkey balls.

Anyone else covered by a union, from the teachers to the Teamsters, would get that due process if faced with termination like this.
 
2017-09-15 04:19:30 AM  

goat012006: My money is on the nurses and doctors caring for the patient professionally and responsibly.


I'd like this to be Payne's next ER trip when he's gravely injured, just with the people in scrubs instead of feathers...

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-09-15 02:34:17 PM  

Weaver95: GDubDub: Policies?  Citizen Review Boards?  Disciplinary measures?

How about LAWS.  Criminal investigations.  Criminal charges.  Trial.

These had better be parallel processes and not the former in lieu of the latter.

sometimes its worth having a range of options.  real life isn't black and white, its various shades of grey.  if the only option is to fire a cop, then no cop is going to want to see that done to a fellow officer over minor violations of policy which might otherwise be corrected without issue, and the whole process falls apart.

but if you discipline a cop, and make it clear that if he or she does better than the incident gets wiped off their records over time then you have a tool to instruct officers on what's best for the community without having to fire them over what could have been an honest mistake.

distinctions like this are often lost on authoritarians tho.  to them, everything is a nail and they are the hammer.


That's why I hope for parallel processes.  In most cases, misconduct can be handled internally, even if only a letter of reprimand, that might harm them during the next promotion board.  But in this case, I believe several crimes were committed, by Payne and Tracey, which is why I think that criminal charges are warranted.

The cops that watched it happen and did not intervene should be disciplined at a level less than termination.
 
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