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(KSL Salt Lake City)   Salt Lake mayor: "At least 6 separate policies were broken in arrest of nurse who wasn't breaking any"   ( ksl.com) divider line
    More: Followup, salt lake city, Police, lake city police, Constable, Law enforcement agency  
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10427 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Sep 2017 at 12:49 AM (12 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-09-14 02:42:56 AM  

scotzrewl: Well, according to this site, at the Federal Level, more Democrats receive more money from the FOP.

Link


And that has what to do with the Salt Lake Police Association precisely?  Oh, right.  Absolutely nothing.
 
2017-09-14 02:59:43 AM  

Carousel Beast: I actually came in here to comment on why the hell policies are being discussed rather than criminal charges, starting with false arrest and moving on to whatever flavor of abuse of power laws they have there.


I came across a statement by their IA addressing this, since it was the first thing I thought as well. Their spokesman said that criminal investigations were being independently pursued by several different agencies and that it was therefore inappropriate for them to comment other than the policy violations. That's probably how it should be but it sure seems like IAs love to get in front of the press and proclaim nothing was found so the DA can nol prosse it without getting shiatstains on himself.
 
2017-09-14 02:59:43 AM  

Wanebo: FTFA

"Those policies include conduct unbecoming by a police employee, courtesy in public contacts, policy regarding arrests, misdemeanor citations, situations requiring a report, law enforcement code of ethics and city policy regarding standards of conduct for employees "

Really. You illegally detain someone and THAT'S what you complain about?


I wholly agree with you and assume the fbi probe will come at that  detective with evidence of the nurses constitutional, as well as human, rights violations.
 
2017-09-14 03:04:22 AM  
Theaetetus:
 They actually use the term "contempt of cop", which appears to indicate that they thought this was violent retaliation from a psychopath.

But, he's a GOOD cop. We've NEVER seen him act like this.
 
2017-09-14 03:11:24 AM  

erewhon: Theaetetus:
 They actually use the term "contempt of cop", which appears to indicate that they thought this was violent retaliation from a psychopath.

But, he's a GOOD cop. We've NEVER seen him act like this.


another aspect here is that this cop probably abused the rights of others long before he got caught.  so how many convictions are now in danger of review and possible retrials because this cop got caught being a power mad petty tyrant with a badge?
 
2017-09-14 03:12:26 AM  

Birnone: Just from a non legal, regular person standpoint, the part of this whole thing that really puzzles me is 'arresting a nurse' part. Doctors, nurses, everyone who works in a hospital really, these are people who if I was a cop they would have to do something exceptional for me to want to arrest them. One day I may be coming into this hospital in bad condition, I want them to either treat me like anyone else or maybe even like me. The last thing I'd want is there to be bad blood between us.


The cops are betting their buddies' lives that medical personnel are each and everyone,more professional than they are, all the time. Because it's not like the staff is going to be looking out for a particular douchebag cop, they're just going to see a cop. The douchebaggery a cop dishes out today might be returned tomorrow, but it's going to be the next cop who is sick or injured who pays the price.
 
2017-09-14 03:15:01 AM  
Weaver95:
another aspect here is that this cop probably abused the rights of others long before he got caught.  so how many convictions are now in danger of review and possible retrials because this cop got caught being a power mad petty tyrant with a badge?

It certainly didn't seem to be the first rodeo for either cop, did it?
 
2017-09-14 03:18:46 AM  

erewhon: Birnone: Just from a non legal, regular person standpoint, the part of this whole thing that really puzzles me is 'arresting a nurse' part. Doctors, nurses, everyone who works in a hospital really, these are people who if I was a cop they would have to do something exceptional for me to want to arrest them. One day I may be coming into this hospital in bad condition, I want them to either treat me like anyone else or maybe even like me. The last thing I'd want is there to be bad blood between us.

The cops are betting their buddies' lives that medical personnel are each and everyone,more professional than they are, all the time. Because it's not like the staff is going to be looking out for a particular douchebag cop, they're just going to see a cop. The douchebaggery a cop dishes out today might be returned tomorrow, but it's going to be the next cop who is sick or injured who pays the price.


There's a difference in motivation and vocation between the two. I can believe and have seen police behaving in a vindictive manner. However, I have never seen any of my fellow health care folks act out in that manner no matter how much they may have wanted to internally.

YMMV
 
2017-09-14 03:19:47 AM  

erewhon: It certainly didn't seem to be the first rodeo for either cop, did it?


*anyone* arrested by this cop OR his boss could potentially be looking at a retrial now, all because this dick hole couldn't follow procedure and admit the nurse was right.  nope - he just HAD to smack everyone in the room with his dick.

idiot.  as if the country didn't already believe cops were all a bunch of angry, impotent, out of control rage zombies.  yeesh.
 
2017-09-14 03:26:34 AM  
The only policy that cop cares about is the "turn off the cameras" policy.
 
2017-09-14 03:33:22 AM  
BafflerMeal
There's a difference in motivation and vocation between the two. I can believe and have seen police behaving in a vindictive manner. However, I have never seen any of my fellow health care folks act out in that manner no matter how much they may have wanted to internally.

YMMV


But if you worked in an ER where this sort of thing went on with your charge or docs, tell me you're going to be as enthusiastic as you would be with, say, a firefighter.

I've got family that works trauma ER and in some ERs it's gotten to the point they have had to post "What LEOs cannot do in the ER" including gems like "order the ER doc to medically clear your prisoner" or "You cannot lawfully order medical treatment for your family or fellow officers"
 
2017-09-14 03:36:09 AM  
Policies?  Citizen Review Boards?  Disciplinary measures?

How about LAWS.  Criminal investigations.  Criminal charges.  Trial.

These had better be parallel processes and not the former in lieu of the latter.
 
2017-09-14 03:38:11 AM  

randomjsa: The only policy that cop cares about is the "turn off the cameras" policy.


Yeah, I can imagine the SLCPD having a camera bonfire soon.
 
2017-09-14 04:01:46 AM  

GDubDub: Policies?  Citizen Review Boards?  Disciplinary measures?

How about LAWS.  Criminal investigations.  Criminal charges.  Trial.

These had better be parallel processes and not the former in lieu of the latter.


sometimes its worth having a range of options.  real life isn't black and white, its various shades of grey.  if the only option is to fire a cop, then no cop is going to want to see that done to a fellow officer over minor violations of policy which might otherwise be corrected without issue, and the whole process falls apart.

but if you discipline a cop, and make it clear that if he or she does better than the incident gets wiped off their records over time then you have a tool to instruct officers on what's best for the community without having to fire them over what could have been an honest mistake.

distinctions like this are often lost on authoritarians tho.  to them, everything is a nail and they are the hammer.
 
2017-09-14 04:02:15 AM  
There'd be no need to call for the cops' firing if he was capable of doing the honorable thing and stepping down.  Deep down, he probably thinks that he's right and everyone else is just a bunch of pansies.
 
2017-09-14 04:15:38 AM  

Fiona Nine Tails: scotzrewl: Well, according to this site, at the Federal Level, more Democrats receive more money from the FOP.

Link

And that has what to do with the Salt Lake Police Association precisely?  Oh, right.  Absolutely nothing.


So you lop off your claim, and then move the goalposts?

Nice.

You can be safely ignored.
 
2017-09-14 05:19:09 AM  

Weaver95: ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.

so again:

Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy.  time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will.  violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws.  time to get fired: 30 days and counting.


img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-09-14 05:50:49 AM  

Boo_Guy: "Salt Lake City police officers are some of the best law enforcement officers in the country."

So they're average is what you're saying.


By any other standard below average human
 
2017-09-14 05:56:24 AM  
Cops are fascist pigs, and they suck.  That is all.
 
2017-09-14 06:17:07 AM  

mcmnky: Weaver95: ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.

so again:

Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy.  time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will.  violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws.  time to get fired: 30 days and counting.

You: no union.
Police: union.


I'm in a large national union annnnnd if I walked into work today, ignored several major policies and possibly broke some laws in the process, it wouldn't even take 3 days to have me on my ass. I'd be out the door and listed as unhireable faster than you can say "grievance report".
 
2017-09-14 06:26:31 AM  

wyltoknow: mcmnky: Weaver95: ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.

so again:

Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy.  time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will.  violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws.  time to get fired: 30 days and counting.

You: no union.
Police: union.

I'm in a large national union annnnnd if I walked into work today, ignored several major policies and possibly broke some laws in the process, it wouldn't even take 3 days to have me on my ass. I'd be out the door and listed as unhireable faster than you can say "grievance report".


But police are delicate, easily startled, Low IQ, White Supremacist snowflakes who need to be protected from all consequences or else we'll all turn into godless, immigrant tolerating commie commies!
 
2017-09-14 06:26:38 AM  

scotzrewl: Fiona Nine Tails: scotzrewl: Well, according to this site, at the Federal Level, more Democrats receive more money from the FOP.

Link

And that has what to do with the Salt Lake Police Association precisely?  Oh, right.  Absolutely nothing.

So you lop off your claim, and then move the goalposts?

Nice.

You can be safely ignored.


You picked a single chapter of the Fraternal Order of Police that donated to Democrats in a completely different state than the one we're talking about and I'm moving the goalposts?  If I pull up the NYPD's Policemen's Benevolent Association I'd probably see a lean toward Democrats too.  That doesn't change the fact that police unions as a whole lean predominately Republican.

Jackass.
 
2017-09-14 06:42:14 AM  
Yeah, we will bend on the constitution, butbutbut pol8cy, never.

Do we really need exclusive policy citations to arrest a pig who violated the bill of rights?
 
2017-09-14 06:49:51 AM  

twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?


Because in most departments/agencies, it takes a lot of paperwork and hearings to fire an Officer once they are off their probationary period.

It prevents spurious firings due to unfounded complaints, and keeps the Police Departments from being stacked entirely with people who are favored by the current leadership (i.e. new Chief takes over and starts firing people he doesn't like so he can hire all his buddies).

I've been in Law Enforcement for 6 years, and I've seen bad cops fired. . .but it does take time for the hearings and investigations, to make sure it's done by-the-book.  Even in blatant cases, they go through the motions to prevent a wrongful termination lawsuit.
 
2017-09-14 07:03:04 AM  
So, no criminal charges for assault or kidnapping. This is my shocked face.
 
2017-09-14 07:25:47 AM  
You know what would go a long way toward healing the rift in this community?  Charging these two for their crimes.
 
2017-09-14 07:40:01 AM  

namegoeshere: You know what would go a long way toward healing the rift making police fark over the justice system every chance they getin this community?  Charging these two for their crimes.

 
2017-09-14 07:46:32 AM  
I can't help but think that this is become bigger news and that there is more focus on this particular police incident due to the color differences between victims.

I know I shouldn't LOOK for racism, especially in reverse. But it's sad that people don't take the cop problems more seriously until it's a white person.

I still don't think any major reform will come until a cop shoots and kills a black federal agent. I hope I'm wrong...or at least right.
 
2017-09-14 07:59:30 AM  
In other news, the Department of Justice isn't going to pursue any further charges against the police officers who treated Freddies Gray so roughly while in custody that his spine was 80% severed at his neck, leading to his death.

Which is reasonable because hell, it's not like they lightly roughed up and briefly detained a white blonde woman, right?
 
2017-09-14 08:00:50 AM  
Biskupski said Wubbels' arrest has divided the community.

Why divided?  Are there some that side with the detective?
 
2017-09-14 08:04:14 AM  

Romulon Malapingi: namegoeshere: You know what would go a long way toward healing the rift making police fark over the justice system every chance they getin this community?  Charging these two for their crimes.


I'm sorry, i must be reading this wrong or you might have left out a word or something. Are you saying that charging police with a crime they committed on video would fark over the justice system??
 
2017-09-14 08:06:47 AM  

Fiona Nine Tails: scotzrewl: Fiona Nine Tails: scotzrewl: Well, according to this site, at the Federal Level, more Democrats receive more money from the FOP.

Link

And that has what to do with the Salt Lake Police Association precisely?  Oh, right.  Absolutely nothing.

So you lop off your claim, and then move the goalposts?

Nice.

You can be safely ignored.

You picked a single chapter of the Fraternal Order of Police that donated to Democrats in a completely different state than the one we're talking about and I'm moving the goalposts?  If I pull up the NYPD's Policemen's Benevolent Association I'd probably see a lean toward Democrats too.  That doesn't change the fact that police unions as a whole lean predominately Republican.

Jackass.


scotzrewl: Fiona Nine Tails: Weaver95: mcmnky: You: no union.
Police: union


Since you forgot what you originally posted...

me: state worker.  Yes, I have a union.  No, they will not protect me if I clearly violate procedure.  I've seen state workers get fired inside of 72 hours for violating security procedures and guide lines.  do NOT dick with those rules, they WILL fire us if we do.  sexual harassment and/or religious discrimination are also two other things that result in more or less instant firings.

Well, yes but you have to remember that your union is a Democrat ploy in order to garner more power and support "Big Government".  The GOP has done everything in their power to neuter it.  Police unions that actively support the GOP are precious snowflakes that must be protected because they can do no wrong.

Well, according to this site, at the Federal Level, more Democrats receive more money from the FOP.

Link


 I misread your original post. And I apologize, for my misreading.
 
2017-09-14 08:08:56 AM  
He's a grandstanding putz.  That officer called his superiors to verify what he should do.  What we saw there wasn't a violation of policy, it WAS policy.
 
2017-09-14 08:22:57 AM  

fireclown: He's a grandstanding putz.  That officer called his superiors to verify what he should do.  What we saw there wasn't a violation of policy, it WAS policy.


The officer and the supervisor were both wrong. Unfortunately that's not really surprising and the Supreme Court has ruled that police can not be held accountable for being ignorant of the law.
 
2017-09-14 08:24:43 AM  
Since everyone is appropriating terms these days, why hasn't "Blue Privilage" become a thing yet?
 
2017-09-14 08:38:24 AM  

mcmnky: Weaver95: ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.

so again:

Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy.  time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will.  violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws.  time to get fired: 30 days and counting.

You: no union.
Police: union.


This.  Unions protect shiat employees.  That's at least 80% of what they're there for.
 
2017-09-14 08:39:36 AM  

max_pooper: fireclown: He's a grandstanding putz.  That officer called his superiors to verify what he should do.  What we saw there wasn't a violation of policy, it WAS policy.

The officer and the supervisor were both wrong. Unfortunately that's not really surprising and the Supreme Court has ruled that police can not be held accountable for being ignorant of the law.


Ah yes, the "Reasonably Stupid Cop" rule
 
2017-09-14 08:42:28 AM  

Wanebo: FTFA

"Those policies include conduct unbecoming by a police employee, courtesy in public contacts, policy regarding arrests, misdemeanor citations, situations requiring a report, law enforcement code of ethics and city policy regarding standards of conduct for employees "

Really. You illegally detain someone and THAT'S what you complain about?


Her lawyer will get to the others
 
2017-09-14 08:42:46 AM  
Anyone with two brain cells wants this guy fired.

I don't want him fired quickly, I want him fired right.  If the city doesn't follow the civil service rules and the contract, he could end up getting his job back.  I don't want that.

If they fire him on the spot, the story goes away, people forget about it, and his appeal of the firing winds it's way through various review boards and commissions.  Then, when the public (with it's long attention span) is no longer paying attention, he gets his job back.

This happens in Philadelphia on a regular basis.  The commissioner announces they suspended for 30 days with the "intent to dismiss".  IA does a quick and sloppy investigation, and when no one is paying attention they put the guy back on the street.  That cop usually screws up again, but often with fatal consequences.

I'm not saying it's right, or I agree with it, but this is what it is.  Follow the process and fire him in a way that makes it impossible to be a cop again.  I don't care if they pay him in the process.  At least he's not kidnapping nurses and roughing them up.

This guy is the grand commander of jackasses, and has no business guarding a mall, let alone being a cop.
 
2017-09-14 09:00:48 AM  

Dodger: I have gone my entire 55 years, 9 of which were in Germany, believing that the word "burgermeister" translated directly to English as "mayor".


It does, but "odor" and "aroma" mean the same thing, too. It's the details that differ.

Burgermeisters had a level of sovereignty that mayors usually didn't. This wasn't universal, though. Basically, they translate into each other, but a burgermeister would be somewhat more powerful than a mayor under the German vs Latin traditions.
 
2017-09-14 09:03:20 AM  

Fiona Nine Tails: Have you ever heard the GOP talk about police unions having too much power?


Have you ever heard the DNC complain about this?

Neither party complains about it, which is the problem.
 
2017-09-14 09:04:47 AM  

Carousel Beast: I actually came in here to comment on why the hell policies are being discussed rather than criminal charges, starting with false arrest and moving on to whatever flavor of abuse of power laws they have there.


It's sneaky smart.

Policy violations get you fired for cause.
Criminal charges get you incarcerated. Usually they don't stick, and sometimes won't get a cop fired anyway.
 
2017-09-14 09:05:49 AM  

Dodger: anustart: twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?

Because Mayor's aren't Burgermeisters. They can't just fire cops like it's an episode of Starsky and Hutch.

The cops should be fired (and charged, frankly) but they are still entitled to the same due process that they tried to deny for that Nurse.

I have gone my entire 55 years, 9 of which were in Germany, believing that the word "burgermeister" translated directly to English as "mayor". So if mayors aren't burgermeisters (and inversely, burgermeisters aren't mayors) then what are burgermeisters?

/Wow - That reads snider than I intended. Serious question.


Burgermeister.  The hamburger joint next to the original Microsoft building where the now millionaire programmers would eat.  There are references in the code and Easter eggs in early versions.
 
2017-09-14 09:08:02 AM  

Weaver95: ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.

so again:

Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy.  time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will.  violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws.  time to get fired: 30 days and counting.


You're not a member of a police or teachers union are you?
 
2017-09-14 09:08:51 AM  

Cdr.Murdock: Anyone with two brain cells wants this guy fired.

I don't want him fired quickly, I want him fired right.  If the city doesn't follow the civil service rules and the contract, he could end up getting his job back.  I don't want that.

If they fire him on the spot, the story goes away, people forget about it, and his appeal of the firing winds it's way through various review boards and commissions.  Then, when the public (with it's long attention span) is no longer paying attention, he gets his job back.

This happens in Philadelphia on a regular basis.  The commissioner announces they suspended for 30 days with the "intent to dismiss".  IA does a quick and sloppy investigation, and when no one is paying attention they put the guy back on the street.  That cop usually screws up again, but often with fatal consequences.

I'm not saying it's right, or I agree with it, but this is what it is.  Follow the process and fire him in a way that makes it impossible to be a cop again.  I don't care if they pay him in the process.  At least he's not kidnapping nurses and roughing them up.

This guy is the grand commander of jackasses, and has no business guarding a mall, let alone being a cop.


He'll probably end up being a school resource officer somewhere.
 
2017-09-14 09:09:30 AM  
Biskupski said Wubbels' arrest has divided the community.

It has? So you're saying there are people in the community that think what the cop did was okay?
 
2017-09-14 09:11:41 AM  
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-09-14 09:13:35 AM  

abhorrent1: It has? So you're saying there are people in the community that think what the cop did was okay?


Boot licking fascists are everywhere in this country right now. Just read any "Uncle Sam's Misguided Children" post on Facebook about this and you'll see a significant number of people believe that cops literally can't do anything wrong ... except seize guns. Apparently when the police encroach on your 2nd Amendment rights, they are statist, government thugs. Everything else? Meh, less dumb people to worry about, in their opinion.
 
2017-09-14 09:24:39 AM  

JohnnyApocalypse: Birnone: Just from a non legal, regular person standpoint, the part of this whole thing that really puzzles me is 'arresting a nurse' part. Doctors, nurses, everyone who works in a hospital really, these are people who if I was a cop they would have to do something exceptional for me to want to arrest them. One day I may be coming into this hospital in bad condition, I want them to either treat me like anyone else or maybe even like me. The last thing I'd want is there to be bad blood between us.

Actually, the part that REALLY gets me is why were they so intent on getting this guy's blood drawn, and enough to arrest a nurse for not doing so, which they had to know was illegal to do? Is it just a case of "drunk on my badge"? Was there something else going on? This is mystifying. I just can't think of any good reason this happened.


You are the victim of fake news.  90% or more of articles from lame news sites regurgitated a watered down narrative that was reported early on, because 90% of journalists suck.   Go find better sources and you will find it was actually worse than that.  The cop was a trained phlebotomist and is qualified to draw blood.  The nurse refused to help this cop violate a person's constitutional rights.  She would not lead this cop to the location of the unconscious victim.   That is what set him off.

Search "jeff payne phlebotomist" to read articles written by journalists.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/09/01/547840028/-somebody​-​help-me-utah-nurse-cried-as-police-detective-roughly-arrested-her
 
2017-09-14 09:30:52 AM  
Federal civil rights laws are 'policies' now?  Huh
 
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