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(KSL Salt Lake City)   Salt Lake mayor: "At least 6 separate policies were broken in arrest of nurse who wasn't breaking any"   ( ksl.com) divider line
    More: Followup, salt lake city, Police, lake city police, Constable, Law enforcement agency  
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10428 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Sep 2017 at 12:49 AM (13 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



138 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2017-09-13 10:06:19 PM  
FTFA

"Those policies include conduct unbecoming by a police employee, courtesy in public contacts, policy regarding arrests, misdemeanor citations, situations requiring a report, law enforcement code of ethics and city policy regarding standards of conduct for employees "

Really. You illegally detain someone and THAT'S what you complain about?
 
2017-09-13 10:20:53 PM  
And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?
 
2017-09-13 11:01:01 PM  
Your being arrest for "obstructing justice"

... but what you are requesting is not justice, its actually illegal.  A police officer demanding I do something illegal does not make the act un-illegal.
 
2017-09-13 11:16:47 PM  

twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?


TFA: "Biskupski said that Wednesday's announcement won't be the final step in the process. Both officers have 20 days to respond to the allegations, she said."
 
2017-09-14 12:27:40 AM  
ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.

so again:

Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy.  time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will.  violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws.  time to get fired: 30 days and counting.
 
2017-09-14 12:51:32 AM  
Those who enforce the rules determine what is a rule or not.

Although I prefer Stalin's take on this:
The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.
 
2017-09-14 12:52:56 AM  
After the 20-day period, the findings of the investigations will be turned over to Salt Lake City Police Chief Mike Brown, who will round file them.
 
2017-09-14 12:54:10 AM  

Weaver95: ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.

so again:

Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy.  time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will.  violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws.  time to get fired: 30 days and counting.


You: no union.
Police: union.
 
2017-09-14 12:55:22 AM  
"Salt Lake City police officers are some of the best law enforcement officers in the country."

So they're average is what you're saying.
 
2017-09-14 12:56:06 AM  

twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?


Because Mayor's aren't Burgermeisters. They can't just fire cops like it's an episode of Starsky and Hutch.

The cops should be fired (and charged, frankly) but they are still entitled to the same due process that they tried to deny for that Nurse.
 
2017-09-14 12:56:17 AM  
Let's remember the threat to harass that hospital by directing all the transients to them. That one goes well beyond these silly points about being courteous. It's like they are tossing up some strawmen to diffuse the rage.
 
2017-09-14 12:58:12 AM  
Welp, the police state tested that line, and the line to not cross is roughing up other public service workers.
 
2017-09-14 12:59:59 AM  
So that's one full week of paid vacation per violation before going back to work as if nothing happened?

media.istockphoto.comView Full Size


Being a cop must be a great job.  The more you screw up the more you're rewarded.
 
2017-09-14 01:00:02 AM  

wademh: Let's remember the threat to harass that hospital by directing all the transients to them. That one goes well beyond these silly points about being courteous. It's like they are tossing up some strawmen to diffuse the rage.


That got him fired from the EMS job where he could make good on that threat. It didn't have much to do with his job at the PD, which he should also be fired from for illegally detaining the nurse and being a douchebag in general.
 
2017-09-14 01:00:10 AM  

mcmnky: You: no union.
Police: union


me: state worker.  Yes, I have a union.  No, they will not protect me if I clearly violate procedure.  I've seen state workers get fired inside of 72 hours for violating security procedures and guide lines.  do NOT dick with those rules, they WILL fire us if we do.  sexual harassment and/or religious discrimination are also two other things that result in more or less instant firings.
 
2017-09-14 01:07:43 AM  

Boo_Guy: After the 20-day period, the findings of the investigations will be turned over to Salt Lake City Police Chief Mike Brown, who will round file them.


Hopefully.
 
2017-09-14 01:08:23 AM  

twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?


s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.comView Full Size
 
2017-09-14 01:09:34 AM  
 
2017-09-14 01:13:33 AM  
Should be charged for misspelling his superior's name in the report he filed too.
 
2017-09-14 01:13:51 AM  

anustart: twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?

Because Mayor's aren't Burgermeisters. They can't just fire cops like it's an episode of Starsky and Hutch.

The cops should be fired (and charged, frankly) but they are still entitled to the same due process that they tried to deny for that Nurse.


I have gone my entire 55 years, 9 of which were in Germany, believing that the word "burgermeister" translated directly to English as "mayor". So if mayors aren't burgermeisters (and inversely, burgermeisters aren't mayors) then what are burgermeisters?

/Wow - That reads snider than I intended. Serious question.
 
2017-09-14 01:16:55 AM  

Dodger: anustart: twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?

Because Mayor's aren't Burgermeisters. They can't just fire cops like it's an episode of Starsky and Hutch.

The cops should be fired (and charged, frankly) but they are still entitled to the same due process that they tried to deny for that Nurse.

I have gone my entire 55 years, 9 of which were in Germany, believing that the word "burgermeister" translated directly to English as "mayor". So if mayors aren't burgermeisters (and inversely, burgermeisters aren't mayors) then what are burgermeisters?

/Wow - That reads snider than I intended. Serious question.


Chair of city council more or less. Actual unitary executive mayors in the US would typically have more power.
 
2017-09-14 01:17:04 AM  

Dodger: anustart: twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?

Because Mayor's aren't Burgermeisters. They can't just fire cops like it's an episode of Starsky and Hutch.

The cops should be fired (and charged, frankly) but they are still entitled to the same due process that they tried to deny for that Nurse.

I have gone my entire 55 years, 9 of which were in Germany, believing that the word "burgermeister" translated directly to English as "mayor". So if mayors aren't burgermeisters (and inversely, burgermeisters aren't mayors) then what are burgermeisters?

/Wow - That reads snider than I intended. Serious question.


They're like half mayor, half old west lawman.

Thank you Sierra and QFG 4.
 
2017-09-14 01:17:35 AM  
FTFA, "We have said all along that we believe that to regain public trust, that the police department needs to police itself."

It's too farking late for that.  Police departments across the country have made it crystal clear that they can not be trusted to police themselves.
 
2017-09-14 01:20:33 AM  

Dodger: anustart: twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?

Because Mayor's aren't Burgermeisters. They can't just fire cops like it's an episode of Starsky and Hutch.

The cops should be fired (and charged, frankly) but they are still entitled to the same due process that they tried to deny for that Nurse.

I have gone my entire 55 years, 9 of which were in Germany, believing that the word "burgermeister" translated directly to English as "mayor". So if mayors aren't burgermeisters (and inversely, burgermeisters aren't mayors) then what are burgermeisters?

/Wow - That reads snider than I intended. Serious question.


Literally, "master of the citizens".
 
2017-09-14 01:24:26 AM  

anustart: twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?

Because Mayor's aren't Burgermeisters. They can't just fire cops like it's an episode of Starsky and Hutch.

The cops should be fired (and charged, frankly) but they are still entitled to the same due process that they tried to deny for that Nurse.


Just because theyre unionized.

Cool story bro time.

I was a cop for 10 years. We had a dumb as hell Chief of Police who ran the dept like the good ole boys club. Finally city council got sick of it and fired him on the spot since we werent unionized. He walked out of the city hall meeting room and filed paperwork to run for mayor, which he then won. He then ran the police dept from city hall.

Small town politics are the worst.
 
2017-09-14 01:28:02 AM  

Weaver95: mcmnky: You: no union.
Police: union

me: state worker.  Yes, I have a union.  No, they will not protect me if I clearly violate procedure.  I've seen state workers get fired inside of 72 hours for violating security procedures and guide lines.  do NOT dick with those rules, they WILL fire us if we do.  sexual harassment and/or religious discrimination are also two other things that result in more or less instant firings.


Well, yes but you have to remember that your union is a Democrat ploy in order to garner more power and support "Big Government".  The GOP has done everything in their power to neuter it.  Police unions that actively support the GOP are precious snowflakes that must be protected because they can do no wrong.
 
2017-09-14 01:29:24 AM  

twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?


Due process, equal protection, union contract.

They'll be fired.  Probably prosecuted too.  Both of these clowns are finished.
 
2017-09-14 01:29:39 AM  

twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?


Ironically, they get due process, the very thing she was denied.
 
2017-09-14 01:33:07 AM  
Just from a non legal, regular person standpoint, the part of this whole thing that really puzzles me is 'arresting a nurse' part. Doctors, nurses, everyone who works in a hospital really, these are people who if I was a cop they would have to do something exceptional for me to want to arrest them. One day I may be coming into this hospital in bad condition, I want them to either treat me like anyone else or maybe even like me. The last thing I'd want is there to be bad blood between us.
 
2017-09-14 01:39:04 AM  

Birnone: Just from a non legal, regular person standpoint, the part of this whole thing that really puzzles me is 'arresting a nurse' part. Doctors, nurses, everyone who works in a hospital really, these are people who if I was a cop they would have to do something exceptional for me to want to arrest them. One day I may be coming into this hospital in bad condition, I want them to either treat me like anyone else or maybe even like me. The last thing I'd want is there to be bad blood between us.


I think you need to put yourself in this guy's shoes.

Specifically his shiny power tripping boots.
 
2017-09-14 01:42:30 AM  

NephilimNexus: So that's one full week of paid vacation per violation before going back to work as if nothing happened?

[media.istockphoto.com image 428x148]

Being a cop must be a great job.  The more you screw up the more you're rewarded.


Oh, no.  It's several weeks of full paid vacation, followed by frantic back-pedaling and financial compensation from the city to the policemen for daring to be mean to them, and then full reinstatement and promotions all around.
 
2017-09-14 01:42:56 AM  

mcmnky: Weaver95: ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.

so again:

Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy.  time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will.  violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws.  time to get fired: 30 days and counting.

You: no union.
Police: union.


Yeah, no. I work as a union staffer. And if I pulled anything close to this crap, my own union rep would rightly call me a dumbass. The union would file a grievance, sure, because they pretty much have to ("duty of fair representation"). So yeah I probably get a paid suspension while this goes through the system for a bit, then the union tells me they're not taking it to arbitration because I'm an idiot and they're under no obligation to blow a perfectly good litigation budget on behalf of my stupid ass.

Copes get special rules, and not just because they're union.
 
2017-09-14 01:43:19 AM  

Fiona Nine Tails: Weaver95: mcmnky: You: no union.
Police: union

me: state worker.  Yes, I have a union.  No, they will not protect me if I clearly violate procedure.  I've seen state workers get fired inside of 72 hours for violating security procedures and guide lines.  do NOT dick with those rules, they WILL fire us if we do.  sexual harassment and/or religious discrimination are also two other things that result in more or less instant firings.

Well, yes but you have to remember that your union is a Democrat ploy in order to garner more power and support "Big Government".  The GOP has done everything in their power to neuter it.  Police unions that actively support the GOP are precious snowflakes that must be protected because they can do no wrong.


You got it. It's obviously the fault of Republicans that police unions rule everything, even in the majority of cities that Democrats have had iron control over for the past half century. It must be those evil Republicans.

/eyeroll
 
2017-09-14 01:45:26 AM  
I assume when they said 'policies' they meant to say 'laws and basic standards of human decency'?
 
2017-09-14 01:46:25 AM  
I actually came in here to comment on why the hell policies are being discussed rather than criminal charges, starting with false arrest and moving on to whatever flavor of abuse of power laws they have there.
 
2017-09-14 01:49:34 AM  

Birnone: Just from a non legal, regular person standpoint, the part of this whole thing that really puzzles me is 'arresting a nurse' part. Doctors, nurses, everyone who works in a hospital really, these are people who if I was a cop they would have to do something exceptional for me to want to arrest them. One day I may be coming into this hospital in bad condition, I want them to either treat me like anyone else or maybe even like me. The last thing I'd want is there to be bad blood between us.


Actually, the part that REALLY gets me is why were they so intent on getting this guy's blood drawn, and enough to arrest a nurse for not doing so, which they had to know was illegal to do? Is it just a case of "drunk on my badge"? Was there something else going on? This is mystifying. I just can't think of any good reason this happened.
 
2017-09-14 01:52:18 AM  

Bonzo_1116: I think you need to put yourself in this guy's shoes.

Specifically his shiny power tripping boots.


You're right. It's just that I would know that no hospital has extra staff just hanging around in case their needed. If I, as a cop, drag a nurse out of there for any reason, now they are understaffed. Now I have farked up a whole shiatload of things for everyone. The doctors, nurses, patients...everyone is going to be impacted. There's no way I'm pulling one of those people out of there unless they are doing something so bad the patients are better off short a nurse.
 
2017-09-14 02:00:52 AM  

anustart: twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?

Because Mayor's aren't Burgermeisters. They can't just fire cops like it's an episode of Starsky and Hutch.

The cops should be fired (and charged, frankly) but they are still entitled to the same due process that they tried to deny for that Nurse.


They arrested her in minutes but they will have months of paid leave to wait to find out that nothing will happen to them.
 
2017-09-14 02:01:38 AM  

JohnnyApocalypse: Birnone: Just from a non legal, regular person standpoint, the part of this whole thing that really puzzles me is 'arresting a nurse' part. Doctors, nurses, everyone who works in a hospital really, these are people who if I was a cop they would have to do something exceptional for me to want to arrest them. One day I may be coming into this hospital in bad condition, I want them to either treat me like anyone else or maybe even like me. The last thing I'd want is there to be bad blood between us.

Actually, the part that REALLY gets me is why were they so intent on getting this guy's blood drawn, and enough to arrest a nurse for not doing so, which they had to know was illegal to do? Is it just a case of "drunk on my badge"? Was there something else going on? This is mystifying. I just can't think of any good reason this happened.


My understand is a police chase went bad, the guy they wanted blood from was slammed into by a cop.

They were fishing for a way to blame someone else.
 
2017-09-14 02:05:50 AM  
Well, as long as the violations are just 'staff policies', and not the law, then good on them.  Laws can sometime be Staff Policies, if the staff deem them as such. Neat.
 
2017-09-14 02:09:22 AM  

Birnone: Just from a non legal, regular person standpoint, the part of this whole thing that really puzzles me is 'arresting a nurse' part. Doctors, nurses, everyone who works in a hospital really, these are people who if I was a cop they would have to do something exceptional for me to want to arrest them. One day I may be coming into this hospital in bad condition, I want them to either treat me like anyone else or maybe even like me. The last thing I'd want is there to be bad blood between us.

and not
Buy if you did, they'd be adult about it, and not let that get in the way of your care.
 
2017-09-14 02:12:18 AM  
So give the nurse a night stick and let her break six separate bones of each officer. Then fire both of them.
 
2017-09-14 02:15:56 AM  

Carousel Beast: You got it. It's obviously the fault of Republicans that police unions rule everything, even in the majority of cities that Democrats have had iron control over for the past half century. It must be those evil Republicans.

/eyeroll


Have you ever heard the GOP talk about police unions having too much power?  Notice how no matter what a police officer does their union representative is first in front of the media protecting them?  How many times have we heard the GOP complain about how hard it is to fire teachers, yet the same thing happens with police unions and there's nary a peep.

So yeah, it's the GOP and their "Blue Lives Matter / Thin Blue Line" BS that protects these cops where anyone else would have been fired for cause.
 
2017-09-14 02:16:35 AM  

Bonzo_1116: Birnone: Just from a non legal, regular person standpoint, the part of this whole thing that really puzzles me is 'arresting a nurse' part. Doctors, nurses, everyone who works in a hospital really, these are people who if I was a cop they would have to do something exceptional for me to want to arrest them. One day I may be coming into this hospital in bad condition, I want them to either treat me like anyone else or maybe even like me. The last thing I'd want is there to be bad blood between us.

I think you need to put yourself in this guy's shoes.

Specifically his shiny power tripping boots.


Yeah. There's actually a bit in the report where the board noted that all of this occurred after the nurse asked for his business card, so she could presumably file a complaint. They actually use the term "contempt of cop", which appears to indicate that they thought this was violent retaliation from a psychopath.
 
2017-09-14 02:17:46 AM  

Spicy_McHaggus: anustart: twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?

Because Mayor's aren't Burgermeisters. They can't just fire cops like it's an episode of Starsky and Hutch.

The cops should be fired (and charged, frankly) but they are still entitled to the same due process that they tried to deny for that Nurse.

Just because theyre unionized.

Cool story bro time.

I was a cop for 10 years. We had a dumb as hell Chief of Police who ran the dept like the good ole boys club. Finally city council got sick of it and fired him on the spot since we werent unionized. He walked out of the city hall meeting room and filed paperwork to run for mayor, which he then won. He then ran the police dept from city hall.

Small town politics are the worst.


Don't know if I should slow clap or cry. That's disgusting.

img.fark.netView Full Size

Is this the chap?
 
2017-09-14 02:20:40 AM  

Boo_Guy: My understand is a police chase went bad, the guy they wanted blood from was slammed into by a cop.

They were fishing for a way to blame someone else.


Close... Police chase went bad, but they guy they wanted blood from was an off duty cop from another state, working his weekend trucking job. The chasee drove into him in oncoming traffic.

If the police chase was against policy, then the state may be on the hook for all of the injured guy's medical expenses, lost income, pain and suffering, etc. But, Utah's a comparative negligence state - if they could find drugs or alcohol in his system and say that he was at least partly at fault, they could potentially wipe all of that out.

So, yeah, they were looking for a way to blame the victim. And when the nurse tried to instruct the cop about the law, he saw someone being uppity and decided to live out his violent power fantasies. He probably had some great sex that night, thinking about it. I wonder if his wife consented.
 
2017-09-14 02:24:46 AM  

Fiona Nine Tails: Weaver95: mcmnky: You: no union.
Police: union

me: state worker.  Yes, I have a union.  No, they will not protect me if I clearly violate procedure.  I've seen state workers get fired inside of 72 hours for violating security procedures and guide lines.  do NOT dick with those rules, they WILL fire us if we do.  sexual harassment and/or religious discrimination are also two other things that result in more or less instant firings.

Well, yes but you have to remember that your union is a Democrat ploy in order to garner more power and support "Big Government".  The GOP has done everything in their power to neuter it.  Police unions that actively support the GOP are precious snowflakes that must be protected because they can do no wrong.


Well, according to this site, at the Federal Level, more Democrats receive more money from the FOP.

Link
 
2017-09-14 02:26:30 AM  
Burn it all down.
 
2017-09-14 02:38:10 AM  

Fiona Nine Tails: Weaver95: mcmnky: You: no union.
Police: union

me: state worker.  Yes, I have a union.  No, they will not protect me if I clearly violate procedure.  I've seen state workers get fired inside of 72 hours for violating security procedures and guide lines.  do NOT dick with those rules, they WILL fire us if we do.  sexual harassment and/or religious discrimination are also two other things that result in more or less instant firings.

Well, yes but you have to remember that your union is a Democrat ploy in order to garner more power and support "Big Government".  The GOP has done everything in their power to neuter it.  Police unions that actively support the GOP are precious snowflakes that must be protected because they can do no wrong.


They also regularly shoot black people.
 
2017-09-14 02:42:25 AM  

Birnone: Bonzo_1116: I think you need to put yourself in this guy's shoes.

Specifically his shiny power tripping boots.

You're right. It's just that I would know that no hospital has extra staff just hanging around in case their needed. If I, as a cop, drag a nurse out of there for any reason, now they are understaffed. Now I have farked up a whole shiatload of things for everyone. The doctors, nurses, patients...everyone is going to be impacted. There's no way I'm pulling one of those people out of there unless they are doing something so bad the patients are better off short a nurse.


Show me where all that thinking fits into "RESPECT MAH ATHORATAY!".
 
2017-09-14 02:42:56 AM  

scotzrewl: Well, according to this site, at the Federal Level, more Democrats receive more money from the FOP.

Link


And that has what to do with the Salt Lake Police Association precisely?  Oh, right.  Absolutely nothing.
 
2017-09-14 02:59:43 AM  

Carousel Beast: I actually came in here to comment on why the hell policies are being discussed rather than criminal charges, starting with false arrest and moving on to whatever flavor of abuse of power laws they have there.


I came across a statement by their IA addressing this, since it was the first thing I thought as well. Their spokesman said that criminal investigations were being independently pursued by several different agencies and that it was therefore inappropriate for them to comment other than the policy violations. That's probably how it should be but it sure seems like IAs love to get in front of the press and proclaim nothing was found so the DA can nol prosse it without getting shiatstains on himself.
 
2017-09-14 02:59:43 AM  

Wanebo: FTFA

"Those policies include conduct unbecoming by a police employee, courtesy in public contacts, policy regarding arrests, misdemeanor citations, situations requiring a report, law enforcement code of ethics and city policy regarding standards of conduct for employees "

Really. You illegally detain someone and THAT'S what you complain about?


I wholly agree with you and assume the fbi probe will come at that  detective with evidence of the nurses constitutional, as well as human, rights violations.
 
2017-09-14 03:04:22 AM  
Theaetetus:
 They actually use the term "contempt of cop", which appears to indicate that they thought this was violent retaliation from a psychopath.

But, he's a GOOD cop. We've NEVER seen him act like this.
 
2017-09-14 03:11:24 AM  

erewhon: Theaetetus:
 They actually use the term "contempt of cop", which appears to indicate that they thought this was violent retaliation from a psychopath.

But, he's a GOOD cop. We've NEVER seen him act like this.


another aspect here is that this cop probably abused the rights of others long before he got caught.  so how many convictions are now in danger of review and possible retrials because this cop got caught being a power mad petty tyrant with a badge?
 
2017-09-14 03:12:26 AM  

Birnone: Just from a non legal, regular person standpoint, the part of this whole thing that really puzzles me is 'arresting a nurse' part. Doctors, nurses, everyone who works in a hospital really, these are people who if I was a cop they would have to do something exceptional for me to want to arrest them. One day I may be coming into this hospital in bad condition, I want them to either treat me like anyone else or maybe even like me. The last thing I'd want is there to be bad blood between us.


The cops are betting their buddies' lives that medical personnel are each and everyone,more professional than they are, all the time. Because it's not like the staff is going to be looking out for a particular douchebag cop, they're just going to see a cop. The douchebaggery a cop dishes out today might be returned tomorrow, but it's going to be the next cop who is sick or injured who pays the price.
 
2017-09-14 03:15:01 AM  
Weaver95:
another aspect here is that this cop probably abused the rights of others long before he got caught.  so how many convictions are now in danger of review and possible retrials because this cop got caught being a power mad petty tyrant with a badge?

It certainly didn't seem to be the first rodeo for either cop, did it?
 
2017-09-14 03:18:46 AM  

erewhon: Birnone: Just from a non legal, regular person standpoint, the part of this whole thing that really puzzles me is 'arresting a nurse' part. Doctors, nurses, everyone who works in a hospital really, these are people who if I was a cop they would have to do something exceptional for me to want to arrest them. One day I may be coming into this hospital in bad condition, I want them to either treat me like anyone else or maybe even like me. The last thing I'd want is there to be bad blood between us.

The cops are betting their buddies' lives that medical personnel are each and everyone,more professional than they are, all the time. Because it's not like the staff is going to be looking out for a particular douchebag cop, they're just going to see a cop. The douchebaggery a cop dishes out today might be returned tomorrow, but it's going to be the next cop who is sick or injured who pays the price.


There's a difference in motivation and vocation between the two. I can believe and have seen police behaving in a vindictive manner. However, I have never seen any of my fellow health care folks act out in that manner no matter how much they may have wanted to internally.

YMMV
 
2017-09-14 03:19:47 AM  

erewhon: It certainly didn't seem to be the first rodeo for either cop, did it?


*anyone* arrested by this cop OR his boss could potentially be looking at a retrial now, all because this dick hole couldn't follow procedure and admit the nurse was right.  nope - he just HAD to smack everyone in the room with his dick.

idiot.  as if the country didn't already believe cops were all a bunch of angry, impotent, out of control rage zombies.  yeesh.
 
2017-09-14 03:26:34 AM  
The only policy that cop cares about is the "turn off the cameras" policy.
 
2017-09-14 03:33:22 AM  
BafflerMeal
There's a difference in motivation and vocation between the two. I can believe and have seen police behaving in a vindictive manner. However, I have never seen any of my fellow health care folks act out in that manner no matter how much they may have wanted to internally.

YMMV


But if you worked in an ER where this sort of thing went on with your charge or docs, tell me you're going to be as enthusiastic as you would be with, say, a firefighter.

I've got family that works trauma ER and in some ERs it's gotten to the point they have had to post "What LEOs cannot do in the ER" including gems like "order the ER doc to medically clear your prisoner" or "You cannot lawfully order medical treatment for your family or fellow officers"
 
2017-09-14 03:36:09 AM  
Policies?  Citizen Review Boards?  Disciplinary measures?

How about LAWS.  Criminal investigations.  Criminal charges.  Trial.

These had better be parallel processes and not the former in lieu of the latter.
 
2017-09-14 03:38:11 AM  

randomjsa: The only policy that cop cares about is the "turn off the cameras" policy.


Yeah, I can imagine the SLCPD having a camera bonfire soon.
 
2017-09-14 04:01:46 AM  

GDubDub: Policies?  Citizen Review Boards?  Disciplinary measures?

How about LAWS.  Criminal investigations.  Criminal charges.  Trial.

These had better be parallel processes and not the former in lieu of the latter.


sometimes its worth having a range of options.  real life isn't black and white, its various shades of grey.  if the only option is to fire a cop, then no cop is going to want to see that done to a fellow officer over minor violations of policy which might otherwise be corrected without issue, and the whole process falls apart.

but if you discipline a cop, and make it clear that if he or she does better than the incident gets wiped off their records over time then you have a tool to instruct officers on what's best for the community without having to fire them over what could have been an honest mistake.

distinctions like this are often lost on authoritarians tho.  to them, everything is a nail and they are the hammer.
 
2017-09-14 04:02:15 AM  
There'd be no need to call for the cops' firing if he was capable of doing the honorable thing and stepping down.  Deep down, he probably thinks that he's right and everyone else is just a bunch of pansies.
 
2017-09-14 04:15:38 AM  

Fiona Nine Tails: scotzrewl: Well, according to this site, at the Federal Level, more Democrats receive more money from the FOP.

Link

And that has what to do with the Salt Lake Police Association precisely?  Oh, right.  Absolutely nothing.


So you lop off your claim, and then move the goalposts?

Nice.

You can be safely ignored.
 
2017-09-14 05:19:09 AM  

Weaver95: ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.

so again:

Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy.  time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will.  violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws.  time to get fired: 30 days and counting.


img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-09-14 05:50:49 AM  

Boo_Guy: "Salt Lake City police officers are some of the best law enforcement officers in the country."

So they're average is what you're saying.


By any other standard below average human
 
2017-09-14 05:56:24 AM  
Cops are fascist pigs, and they suck.  That is all.
 
2017-09-14 06:17:07 AM  

mcmnky: Weaver95: ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.

so again:

Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy.  time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will.  violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws.  time to get fired: 30 days and counting.

You: no union.
Police: union.


I'm in a large national union annnnnd if I walked into work today, ignored several major policies and possibly broke some laws in the process, it wouldn't even take 3 days to have me on my ass. I'd be out the door and listed as unhireable faster than you can say "grievance report".
 
2017-09-14 06:26:31 AM  

wyltoknow: mcmnky: Weaver95: ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.

so again:

Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy.  time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will.  violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws.  time to get fired: 30 days and counting.

You: no union.
Police: union.

I'm in a large national union annnnnd if I walked into work today, ignored several major policies and possibly broke some laws in the process, it wouldn't even take 3 days to have me on my ass. I'd be out the door and listed as unhireable faster than you can say "grievance report".


But police are delicate, easily startled, Low IQ, White Supremacist snowflakes who need to be protected from all consequences or else we'll all turn into godless, immigrant tolerating commie commies!
 
2017-09-14 06:26:38 AM  

scotzrewl: Fiona Nine Tails: scotzrewl: Well, according to this site, at the Federal Level, more Democrats receive more money from the FOP.

Link

And that has what to do with the Salt Lake Police Association precisely?  Oh, right.  Absolutely nothing.

So you lop off your claim, and then move the goalposts?

Nice.

You can be safely ignored.


You picked a single chapter of the Fraternal Order of Police that donated to Democrats in a completely different state than the one we're talking about and I'm moving the goalposts?  If I pull up the NYPD's Policemen's Benevolent Association I'd probably see a lean toward Democrats too.  That doesn't change the fact that police unions as a whole lean predominately Republican.

Jackass.
 
2017-09-14 06:42:14 AM  
Yeah, we will bend on the constitution, butbutbut pol8cy, never.

Do we really need exclusive policy citations to arrest a pig who violated the bill of rights?
 
2017-09-14 06:49:51 AM  

twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?


Because in most departments/agencies, it takes a lot of paperwork and hearings to fire an Officer once they are off their probationary period.

It prevents spurious firings due to unfounded complaints, and keeps the Police Departments from being stacked entirely with people who are favored by the current leadership (i.e. new Chief takes over and starts firing people he doesn't like so he can hire all his buddies).

I've been in Law Enforcement for 6 years, and I've seen bad cops fired. . .but it does take time for the hearings and investigations, to make sure it's done by-the-book.  Even in blatant cases, they go through the motions to prevent a wrongful termination lawsuit.
 
2017-09-14 07:03:04 AM  
So, no criminal charges for assault or kidnapping. This is my shocked face.
 
2017-09-14 07:25:47 AM  
You know what would go a long way toward healing the rift in this community?  Charging these two for their crimes.
 
2017-09-14 07:40:01 AM  

namegoeshere: You know what would go a long way toward healing the rift making police fark over the justice system every chance they getin this community?  Charging these two for their crimes.

 
2017-09-14 07:46:32 AM  
I can't help but think that this is become bigger news and that there is more focus on this particular police incident due to the color differences between victims.

I know I shouldn't LOOK for racism, especially in reverse. But it's sad that people don't take the cop problems more seriously until it's a white person.

I still don't think any major reform will come until a cop shoots and kills a black federal agent. I hope I'm wrong...or at least right.
 
2017-09-14 07:59:30 AM  
In other news, the Department of Justice isn't going to pursue any further charges against the police officers who treated Freddies Gray so roughly while in custody that his spine was 80% severed at his neck, leading to his death.

Which is reasonable because hell, it's not like they lightly roughed up and briefly detained a white blonde woman, right?
 
2017-09-14 08:00:50 AM  
Biskupski said Wubbels' arrest has divided the community.

Why divided?  Are there some that side with the detective?
 
2017-09-14 08:04:14 AM  

Romulon Malapingi: namegoeshere: You know what would go a long way toward healing the rift making police fark over the justice system every chance they getin this community?  Charging these two for their crimes.


I'm sorry, i must be reading this wrong or you might have left out a word or something. Are you saying that charging police with a crime they committed on video would fark over the justice system??
 
2017-09-14 08:06:47 AM  

Fiona Nine Tails: scotzrewl: Fiona Nine Tails: scotzrewl: Well, according to this site, at the Federal Level, more Democrats receive more money from the FOP.

Link

And that has what to do with the Salt Lake Police Association precisely?  Oh, right.  Absolutely nothing.

So you lop off your claim, and then move the goalposts?

Nice.

You can be safely ignored.

You picked a single chapter of the Fraternal Order of Police that donated to Democrats in a completely different state than the one we're talking about and I'm moving the goalposts?  If I pull up the NYPD's Policemen's Benevolent Association I'd probably see a lean toward Democrats too.  That doesn't change the fact that police unions as a whole lean predominately Republican.

Jackass.


scotzrewl: Fiona Nine Tails: Weaver95: mcmnky: You: no union.
Police: union


Since you forgot what you originally posted...

me: state worker.  Yes, I have a union.  No, they will not protect me if I clearly violate procedure.  I've seen state workers get fired inside of 72 hours for violating security procedures and guide lines.  do NOT dick with those rules, they WILL fire us if we do.  sexual harassment and/or religious discrimination are also two other things that result in more or less instant firings.

Well, yes but you have to remember that your union is a Democrat ploy in order to garner more power and support "Big Government".  The GOP has done everything in their power to neuter it.  Police unions that actively support the GOP are precious snowflakes that must be protected because they can do no wrong.

Well, according to this site, at the Federal Level, more Democrats receive more money from the FOP.

Link


 I misread your original post. And I apologize, for my misreading.
 
2017-09-14 08:08:56 AM  
He's a grandstanding putz.  That officer called his superiors to verify what he should do.  What we saw there wasn't a violation of policy, it WAS policy.
 
2017-09-14 08:22:57 AM  

fireclown: He's a grandstanding putz.  That officer called his superiors to verify what he should do.  What we saw there wasn't a violation of policy, it WAS policy.


The officer and the supervisor were both wrong. Unfortunately that's not really surprising and the Supreme Court has ruled that police can not be held accountable for being ignorant of the law.
 
2017-09-14 08:24:43 AM  
Since everyone is appropriating terms these days, why hasn't "Blue Privilage" become a thing yet?
 
2017-09-14 08:38:24 AM  

mcmnky: Weaver95: ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.

so again:

Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy.  time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will.  violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws.  time to get fired: 30 days and counting.

You: no union.
Police: union.


This.  Unions protect shiat employees.  That's at least 80% of what they're there for.
 
2017-09-14 08:39:36 AM  

max_pooper: fireclown: He's a grandstanding putz.  That officer called his superiors to verify what he should do.  What we saw there wasn't a violation of policy, it WAS policy.

The officer and the supervisor were both wrong. Unfortunately that's not really surprising and the Supreme Court has ruled that police can not be held accountable for being ignorant of the law.


Ah yes, the "Reasonably Stupid Cop" rule
 
2017-09-14 08:42:28 AM  

Wanebo: FTFA

"Those policies include conduct unbecoming by a police employee, courtesy in public contacts, policy regarding arrests, misdemeanor citations, situations requiring a report, law enforcement code of ethics and city policy regarding standards of conduct for employees "

Really. You illegally detain someone and THAT'S what you complain about?


Her lawyer will get to the others
 
2017-09-14 08:42:46 AM  
Anyone with two brain cells wants this guy fired.

I don't want him fired quickly, I want him fired right.  If the city doesn't follow the civil service rules and the contract, he could end up getting his job back.  I don't want that.

If they fire him on the spot, the story goes away, people forget about it, and his appeal of the firing winds it's way through various review boards and commissions.  Then, when the public (with it's long attention span) is no longer paying attention, he gets his job back.

This happens in Philadelphia on a regular basis.  The commissioner announces they suspended for 30 days with the "intent to dismiss".  IA does a quick and sloppy investigation, and when no one is paying attention they put the guy back on the street.  That cop usually screws up again, but often with fatal consequences.

I'm not saying it's right, or I agree with it, but this is what it is.  Follow the process and fire him in a way that makes it impossible to be a cop again.  I don't care if they pay him in the process.  At least he's not kidnapping nurses and roughing them up.

This guy is the grand commander of jackasses, and has no business guarding a mall, let alone being a cop.
 
2017-09-14 09:00:48 AM  

Dodger: I have gone my entire 55 years, 9 of which were in Germany, believing that the word "burgermeister" translated directly to English as "mayor".


It does, but "odor" and "aroma" mean the same thing, too. It's the details that differ.

Burgermeisters had a level of sovereignty that mayors usually didn't. This wasn't universal, though. Basically, they translate into each other, but a burgermeister would be somewhat more powerful than a mayor under the German vs Latin traditions.
 
2017-09-14 09:03:20 AM  

Fiona Nine Tails: Have you ever heard the GOP talk about police unions having too much power?


Have you ever heard the DNC complain about this?

Neither party complains about it, which is the problem.
 
2017-09-14 09:04:47 AM  

Carousel Beast: I actually came in here to comment on why the hell policies are being discussed rather than criminal charges, starting with false arrest and moving on to whatever flavor of abuse of power laws they have there.


It's sneaky smart.

Policy violations get you fired for cause.
Criminal charges get you incarcerated. Usually they don't stick, and sometimes won't get a cop fired anyway.
 
2017-09-14 09:05:49 AM  

Dodger: anustart: twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?

Because Mayor's aren't Burgermeisters. They can't just fire cops like it's an episode of Starsky and Hutch.

The cops should be fired (and charged, frankly) but they are still entitled to the same due process that they tried to deny for that Nurse.

I have gone my entire 55 years, 9 of which were in Germany, believing that the word "burgermeister" translated directly to English as "mayor". So if mayors aren't burgermeisters (and inversely, burgermeisters aren't mayors) then what are burgermeisters?

/Wow - That reads snider than I intended. Serious question.


Burgermeister.  The hamburger joint next to the original Microsoft building where the now millionaire programmers would eat.  There are references in the code and Easter eggs in early versions.
 
2017-09-14 09:08:02 AM  

Weaver95: ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.

so again:

Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy.  time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will.  violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws.  time to get fired: 30 days and counting.


You're not a member of a police or teachers union are you?
 
2017-09-14 09:08:51 AM  

Cdr.Murdock: Anyone with two brain cells wants this guy fired.

I don't want him fired quickly, I want him fired right.  If the city doesn't follow the civil service rules and the contract, he could end up getting his job back.  I don't want that.

If they fire him on the spot, the story goes away, people forget about it, and his appeal of the firing winds it's way through various review boards and commissions.  Then, when the public (with it's long attention span) is no longer paying attention, he gets his job back.

This happens in Philadelphia on a regular basis.  The commissioner announces they suspended for 30 days with the "intent to dismiss".  IA does a quick and sloppy investigation, and when no one is paying attention they put the guy back on the street.  That cop usually screws up again, but often with fatal consequences.

I'm not saying it's right, or I agree with it, but this is what it is.  Follow the process and fire him in a way that makes it impossible to be a cop again.  I don't care if they pay him in the process.  At least he's not kidnapping nurses and roughing them up.

This guy is the grand commander of jackasses, and has no business guarding a mall, let alone being a cop.


He'll probably end up being a school resource officer somewhere.
 
2017-09-14 09:09:30 AM  
Biskupski said Wubbels' arrest has divided the community.

It has? So you're saying there are people in the community that think what the cop did was okay?
 
2017-09-14 09:11:41 AM  
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-09-14 09:13:35 AM  

abhorrent1: It has? So you're saying there are people in the community that think what the cop did was okay?


Boot licking fascists are everywhere in this country right now. Just read any "Uncle Sam's Misguided Children" post on Facebook about this and you'll see a significant number of people believe that cops literally can't do anything wrong ... except seize guns. Apparently when the police encroach on your 2nd Amendment rights, they are statist, government thugs. Everything else? Meh, less dumb people to worry about, in their opinion.
 
2017-09-14 09:24:39 AM  

JohnnyApocalypse: Birnone: Just from a non legal, regular person standpoint, the part of this whole thing that really puzzles me is 'arresting a nurse' part. Doctors, nurses, everyone who works in a hospital really, these are people who if I was a cop they would have to do something exceptional for me to want to arrest them. One day I may be coming into this hospital in bad condition, I want them to either treat me like anyone else or maybe even like me. The last thing I'd want is there to be bad blood between us.

Actually, the part that REALLY gets me is why were they so intent on getting this guy's blood drawn, and enough to arrest a nurse for not doing so, which they had to know was illegal to do? Is it just a case of "drunk on my badge"? Was there something else going on? This is mystifying. I just can't think of any good reason this happened.


You are the victim of fake news.  90% or more of articles from lame news sites regurgitated a watered down narrative that was reported early on, because 90% of journalists suck.   Go find better sources and you will find it was actually worse than that.  The cop was a trained phlebotomist and is qualified to draw blood.  The nurse refused to help this cop violate a person's constitutional rights.  She would not lead this cop to the location of the unconscious victim.   That is what set him off.

Search "jeff payne phlebotomist" to read articles written by journalists.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/09/01/547840028/-somebody​-​help-me-utah-nurse-cried-as-police-detective-roughly-arrested-her
 
2017-09-14 09:30:52 AM  
Federal civil rights laws are 'policies' now?  Huh
 
2017-09-14 09:36:06 AM  

Carousel Beast: You got it. It's obviously the fault of Republicans that police unions rule everything, even in the majority of cities that Democrats have had iron control over for the past half century. It must be those evil Republicans.


You missed his point almost entirely...well done :)
 
2017-09-14 09:42:46 AM  

BafflerMeal: Chair of city council more or less. Actual unitary executive mayors in the US would typically have more power.


This text is now purple: Burgermeisters had a level of sovereignty that mayors usually didn't.


Fight!
 
2017-09-14 09:43:32 AM  

veranbryce: Since everyone is appropriating terms these days, why hasn't "Blue Privilage" become a thing yet?


Because it's an ACTUAL privilege, rather than the "privilege" of not getting your ass beat.
It would make the other types of privileges look stupid in comparison.
 
2017-09-14 09:45:59 AM  
That's a very nice bit of fluff by their IA that even goes to compliment the nurse for following procedure and contacting her superiors in refusing.

Still has zero consequence or actual penalties shown. This is frantic CYA paperwork to avoid the forthcoming lawsuit. Nurse needs to sue the everloving fark out of the department.
 
2017-09-14 09:46:10 AM  

Smoking GNU: Romulon Malapingi: namegoeshere: You know what would go a long way toward healing the rift making police fark over the justice system every chance they getin this community?  Charging these two for their crimes.

I'm sorry, i must be reading this wrong or you might have left out a word or something. Are you saying that charging police with a crime they committed on video would fark over the justice system??


I read that as him saying that holding criminal cops accountable for their actions would inspire the rest of the "good cops" to fark over the justice system out of spite. Or put another way, he's saying there are no good cops, just bad cops and cops who cover for bad cops.
 
2017-09-14 09:52:35 AM  

Big_Fat_Liar: JohnnyApocalypse: Birnone: Just from a non legal, regular person standpoint, the part of this whole thing that really puzzles me is 'arresting a nurse' part. Doctors, nurses, everyone who works in a hospital really, these are people who if I was a cop they would have to do something exceptional for me to want to arrest them. One day I may be coming into this hospital in bad condition, I want them to either treat me like anyone else or maybe even like me. The last thing I'd want is there to be bad blood between us.

Actually, the part that REALLY gets me is why were they so intent on getting this guy's blood drawn, and enough to arrest a nurse for not doing so, which they had to know was illegal to do? Is it just a case of "drunk on my badge"? Was there something else going on? This is mystifying. I just can't think of any good reason this happened.

You are the victim of fake news.  90% or more of articles from lame news sites regurgitated a watered down narrative that was reported early on, because 90% of journalists suck.   Go find better sources and you will find it was actually worse than that.  The cop was a trained phlebotomist and is qualified to draw blood.  The nurse refused to help this cop violate a person's constitutional rights.  She would not lead this cop to the location of the unconscious victim.   That is what set him off.

Search "jeff payne phlebotomist" to read articles written by journalists.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/09/01/547840028/-somebody-​help-me-utah-nurse-cried-as-police-detective-roughly-arrested-her


I didn't know he was a phlebotomist. However, I don't think "fake news" is an accurate term here. It's misreporting and sloppy journalism. There's a big difference. Fake news is a purposeful misreporting or blatantly false reporting for political or monetary reasons. Newspapers mess up all the time and send out corrections to their earlier reports, if those mistakes are caught.

I think holding the line on fake news vs. sloppy journalism is a good thing. Intent means something.

ALSO, that he "was sent" to draw the blood puts a twist on all of this that isn't being fully explored. Who sent him? Was it the watch commander who sent him? Or someone higher up? That would answer my original question that I couldn't figure out. Did the police know at the time that the trucker victim was an off duty cop? Would that have made any difference in what they planned?
 
2017-09-14 09:55:33 AM  

Dodger: anustart: twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?

Because Mayor's aren't Burgermeisters. They can't just fire cops like it's an episode of Starsky and Hutch.

The cops should be fired (and charged, frankly) but they are still entitled to the same due process that they tried to deny for that Nurse.

I have gone my entire 55 years, 9 of which were in Germany, believing that the word "burgermeister" translated directly to English as "mayor". So if mayors aren't burgermeisters (and inversely, burgermeisters aren't mayors) then what are burgermeisters?

/Wow - That reads snider than I intended. Serious question.


I'ts my bad, really.  I *should* have been more clear.  In my mind I was referencing the old-school Burgermeisters in places like Bavaria and Bohemia who wielded tremendous local power back in the day.
 
2017-09-14 10:05:03 AM  
I hope that nurse sues the ever-loving fark out of the SLCPD, and everything they ever thought they could own.
 
2017-09-14 10:07:31 AM  

Birnone: Just from a non legal, regular person standpoint, the part of this whole thing that really puzzles me is 'arresting a nurse' part. Doctors, nurses, everyone who works in a hospital really, these are people who if I was a cop they would have to do something exceptional for me to want to arrest them. One day I may be coming into this hospital in bad condition, I want them to either treat me like anyone else or maybe even like me. The last thing I'd want is there to be bad blood between us.


Fortunately they tend to be a lot more professional than this guy, and would treat him anyway.
 
2017-09-14 10:12:03 AM  

Birnone: Bonzo_1116: I think you need to put yourself in this guy's shoes.

Specifically his shiny power tripping boots.

You're right. It's just that I would know that no hospital has extra staff just hanging around in case their needed. If I, as a cop, drag a nurse out of there for any reason, now they are understaffed. Now I have farked up a whole shiatload of things for everyone. The doctors, nurses, patients...everyone is going to be impacted. There's no way I'm pulling one of those people out of there unless they are doing something so bad the patients are better off short a nurse.


If any of her patients died, I wonder if their family could win a wrongful death suit against the guy.

Even if they wouldn't, they'd probably be able to take it to trial, so there'd at least be the chance.
 
2017-09-14 10:13:13 AM  
I'm sure the mayor will pressure the police chief to impose punishment up to and including termination.  But remember the police officers' union and the mayor/chief are opposing forces, so even if the chief wants to fire that jackass, he's limited in his ability to do so by the terms of the collective bargaining agreement and whatever progressive discipline process is laid out in that agreement.  So for those who are saying "why hasn't he been fired yet?" - it's a process that is only just starting.  It may result in termination, but only after all the hoops have been jumped through and all appeals exhausted.
 
2017-09-14 10:32:06 AM  

twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?


It's not they killed anyone, then again that wouldn't have gotten them fired either.
 
2017-09-14 10:34:29 AM  

Wanebo: FTFA

"Those policies include conduct unbecoming by a police employee, courtesy in public contacts, policy regarding arrests, misdemeanor citations, situations requiring a report, law enforcement code of ethics and city policy regarding standards of conduct for employees "

Really. You illegally detain someone and THAT'S what you complain about?


It's trying to protect the city against being liable while still showing police some support.
 
2017-09-14 10:35:21 AM  

cefm: I'm sure the mayor will pressure the police chief to impose punishment up to and including termination.  But remember the police officers' union and the mayor/chief are opposing forces, so even if the chief wants to fire that jackass, he's limited in his ability to do so by the terms of the collective bargaining agreement and whatever progressive discipline process is laid out in that agreement.  So for those who are saying "why hasn't he been fired yet?" - it's a process that is only just starting.  It may result in termination, but only after all the hoops have been jumped through and all appeals exhausted.


Fire the Chief. Responsibility starts at the top. Once a few chiefs get fired, the message will get out, and all of this " the union is tying my hands" will evaporate. Discipline and lawful behavior in an enterprise begin at the top. Fire the Chief.
 
2017-09-14 10:40:00 AM  

This text is now purple: Fiona Nine Tails: Have you ever heard the GOP talk about police unions having too much power?

Have you ever heard the DNC complain about this?

Neither party complains about it, which is the problem.


Actually...that's a good point.  I've heard local politicians but I don't think I've ever heard anyone at the state/federal level complain about it.
 
2017-09-14 10:49:41 AM  

hobbes0022: Your being arrest for "obstructing justice"


...is most unfortunate?
 
2017-09-14 10:51:21 AM  

trappedspirit: hobbes0022: Your being arrest for "obstructing justice"

...is most unfortunate?


Yes... I am a moron
 
2017-09-14 10:58:31 AM  

Wanebo: FTFA

"Those policies include conduct unbecoming by a police employee, courtesy in public contacts, policy regarding arrests, misdemeanor citations, situations requiring a report, law enforcement code of ethics and city policy regarding standards of conduct for employees "

Really. You illegally detain someone and THAT'S what you complain about?


Reminds me of this:

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-09-14 10:58:36 AM  
Can't we all agree that there is blame on both sides?
 
2017-09-14 11:32:15 AM  

Weaver95: ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.

so again:

Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy.  time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will to kill any black person they want.  violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws.  time to get fired: 30 days and counting.


Small adjustment.
 
2017-09-14 12:16:46 PM  

JohnnyApocalypse: Big_Fat_Liar: JohnnyApocalypse: Birnone: Just from a non legal, regular person standpoint, the part of this whole thing that really puzzles me is 'arresting a nurse' part. Doctors, nurses, everyone who works in a hospital really, these are people who if I was a cop they would have to do something exceptional for me to want to arrest them. One day I may be coming into this hospital in bad condition, I want them to either treat me like anyone else or maybe even like me. The last thing I'd want is there to be bad blood between us.

Actually, the part that REALLY gets me is why were they so intent on getting this guy's blood drawn, and enough to arrest a nurse for not doing so, which they had to know was illegal to do? Is it just a case of "drunk on my badge"? Was there something else going on? This is mystifying. I just can't think of any good reason this happened.

You are the victim of fake news.  90% or more of articles from lame news sites regurgitated a watered down narrative that was reported early on, because 90% of journalists suck.   Go find better sources and you will find it was actually worse than that.  The cop was a trained phlebotomist and is qualified to draw blood.  The nurse refused to help this cop violate a person's constitutional rights.  She would not lead this cop to the location of the unconscious victim.   That is what set him off.

Search "jeff payne phlebotomist" to read articles written by journalists.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/09/01/547840028/-somebody-​help-me-utah-nurse-cried-as-police-detective-roughly-arrested-her

I didn't know he was a phlebotomist. However, I don't think "fake news" is an accurate term here. It's misreporting and sloppy journalism. There's a big difference. Fake news is a purposeful misreporting or blatantly false reporting for political or monetary reasons. Newspapers mess up all the time and send out corrections to their earlier reports, if those mistakes are caught.

I think holding the line on ...


It's news that simply doesn't care about about accuracy.  How is it possible to write as an alleged professional on this stuff and be less informed than I am?  Sure, they didn't manufacture the story out of thin air, but it is fake news in that they put no real effort into making it newsworthy.  All they really care about is the ad revenue that drives their salaries.  Not reporting this seemingly minor detail also means not asking important questions concerning people who are notorious for not really believing in the constitutional rights of others having the ability to walk into a hospital and have access to patients under color of authority.  Do we really want to let meatheads who go to the wrong address and shoot people and their dogs draw blood from people?  Questions that won't get asked.
 
2017-09-14 12:22:32 PM  
Could have been worse, at least she was white.
 
2017-09-14 12:24:37 PM  

Weaver95: Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy. time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will. violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws. time to get fired: 30 days and counting.


mcmnky: You: no union.
Police: union.


Yup.
 
2017-09-14 01:22:01 PM  

SocratesNutz: Can't we all agree that there is blame on both sides?


You mean both the state & Salt Lake City police forces?  One conducted a high-speed chase that led to the crash killing the driver of the car & injuring the truck driver.  The other attempted to illegally obtain a blood sample then illegally arrested a nurse for refusing to let him do that.

The nurse did nothing wrong.   Neither did the truck driver.

What other sides are there?
 
2017-09-14 01:25:13 PM  

GN Nymph: SocratesNutz: Can't we all agree that there is blame on both sides?

You mean both the state & Salt Lake City police forces?  One conducted a high-speed chase that led to the crash killing the driver of the car & injuring the truck driver.  The other attempted to illegally obtain a blood sample then illegally arrested a nurse for refusing to let him do that.

The nurse did nothing wrong.   Neither did the truck driver.

What other sides are there?


I think you may have overestimated his sincerity and underestimated his sarcasm.
 
2017-09-14 01:31:12 PM  

erewhon: Birnone: Just from a non legal, regular person standpoint, the part of this whole thing that really puzzles me is 'arresting a nurse' part. Doctors, nurses, everyone who works in a hospital really, these are people who if I was a cop they would have to do something exceptional for me to want to arrest them. One day I may be coming into this hospital in bad condition, I want them to either treat me like anyone else or maybe even like me. The last thing I'd want is there to be bad blood between us.

The cops are betting their buddies' lives that medical personnel are each and everyone,more professional than they are, all the time. Because it's not like the staff is going to be looking out for a particular douchebag cop, they're just going to see a cop. The douchebaggery a cop dishes out today might be returned tomorrow, but it's going to be the next cop who is sick or injured who pays the price.


Take into account the differing mindsets that folks going into these respective professions must have. My wife is a nurse. She has been spat on, hit, threatened, verbally abused, you name it, by patients. In every....single.....instance....she has STILL performed her duty of caring for the patient in every way possible. Because she is a nurse. That's the nurse mindset. They are caregivers....not enforcers.

Take this in contrast with the typical mindset if someone who seeks a career in enforcement. Its a whole different ballpark. Hell it ain't even the same sport. My money is on the nurses and doctors caring for the patient professionally and responsibly.
 
2017-09-14 01:47:34 PM  
And all 6 relate to "trying to pin the blame on another cop".
/you can tell how much they care about those policies
//since the cop[s] are on the payroll
///do you think you would know about it if the patient wasn't a cop?
 
2017-09-14 01:58:18 PM  

farkmedown: Wanebo: FTFA

"Those policies include conduct unbecoming by a police employee, courtesy in public contacts, policy regarding arrests, misdemeanor citations, situations requiring a report, law enforcement code of ethics and city policy regarding standards of conduct for employees "

Really. You illegally detain someone and THAT'S what you complain about?

Reminds me of this:

[img.fark.net image 850x425]


Klingon justice is a unique point of view, Mister President.
 
2017-09-14 02:28:16 PM  

twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?


They have received the heaviest punishment possible-- promotion and salary increase. Also a medal for participation.
 
2017-09-14 03:00:25 PM  

twistedknickers: And so why haven't the 2 officers been fired?


Unions.

Also, I love how their findings are 'policy' violations.
 
2017-09-14 04:30:18 PM  
So does anyone here think that something is going to be done to combat the "thin blue line, us vs everyone else" mentality that almost every police officer espouses? No? Didn't think so.
 
2017-09-14 04:37:57 PM  

IRQ12: Also, I love how their findings are 'policy' violations.


What's wrong with that?  He's not saying they weren't crimes, because that's not for him to determine. All he's saying is that regardless of any other rules or laws, they ALSO violated department policy.
 
2017-09-14 05:14:54 PM  

Weaver95: ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.



Termination procedures are written into the union contracts.  If you'd like cushy procedures like that then form a union.
 
2017-09-14 06:12:48 PM  

Weaver95: ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.

so again:

Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy.  time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will.  violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws.  time to get fired: 30 days and counting.


You: no union, I'm gonna guess, is the biggest difference.
 
2017-09-14 06:13:22 PM  

mcmnky: Weaver95: ya know, if I walked into work one day and just ignored 5 or 6 major policies and procedures in place, I'd be out on my ass inside of oh...3 days or so.  But I guess even with massive amounts of evidence AND video footage AND the cop himself admitting to his improper actions they STILL can't fire a cop right away.

so again:

Me: no gun, computer programmer, average looking middle class white guy.  time to get fired: 3 days.
cop: legally carries a gun AND is permitted to use it more or less at will.  violated multiple dept policies and may have broken a couple laws.  time to get fired: 30 days and counting.

You: no union.
Police: union.


Dammit, should have scrolled down ONE MORE POST...
 
2017-09-14 06:15:21 PM  

Weaver95: mcmnky: You: no union.
Police: union

me: state worker.  Yes, I have a union.  No, they will not protect me if I clearly violate procedure.  I've seen state workers get fired inside of 72 hours for violating security procedures and guide lines.  do NOT dick with those rules, they WILL fire us if we do.  sexual harassment and/or religious discrimination are also two other things that result in more or less instant firings.


Them your union sucks donkey balls.

Anyone else covered by a union, from the teachers to the Teamsters, would get that due process if faced with termination like this.
 
2017-09-15 04:19:30 AM  

goat012006: My money is on the nurses and doctors caring for the patient professionally and responsibly.


I'd like this to be Payne's next ER trip when he's gravely injured, just with the people in scrubs instead of feathers...

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2017-09-15 02:34:17 PM  

Weaver95: GDubDub: Policies?  Citizen Review Boards?  Disciplinary measures?

How about LAWS.  Criminal investigations.  Criminal charges.  Trial.

These had better be parallel processes and not the former in lieu of the latter.

sometimes its worth having a range of options.  real life isn't black and white, its various shades of grey.  if the only option is to fire a cop, then no cop is going to want to see that done to a fellow officer over minor violations of policy which might otherwise be corrected without issue, and the whole process falls apart.

but if you discipline a cop, and make it clear that if he or she does better than the incident gets wiped off their records over time then you have a tool to instruct officers on what's best for the community without having to fire them over what could have been an honest mistake.

distinctions like this are often lost on authoritarians tho.  to them, everything is a nail and they are the hammer.


That's why I hope for parallel processes.  In most cases, misconduct can be handled internally, even if only a letter of reprimand, that might harm them during the next promotion board.  But in this case, I believe several crimes were committed, by Payne and Tracey, which is why I think that criminal charges are warranted.

The cops that watched it happen and did not intervene should be disciplined at a level less than termination.
 
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