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(Reuters)   Headline: NTSB finds Tesla autopilot played role in deadly crash Article: clearly this family has been paid off in the millions   ( reuters.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, NTSB Chairman Robert, National Transportation Safety Board, Tesla Model S, Tesla Motors, Automobile, autopilot, English-language films, Tesla Roadster  
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1132 clicks; posted to Business » on 12 Sep 2017 at 6:20 PM (13 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



35 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2017-09-12 06:05:06 PM  
"Tesla allowed the driver to use the system outside of the environment for which it was designed and the system gave far too much leeway to the driver to divert his attention."

So... you're saying it's probably still the driver's fault for being an idiot, but Tesla should have anticipated their idiocy and stopped it.  I mean, I don't know the full details here, but if there's one thing I've learned about drivers, it's that there's absolutely no limit to the varieties and magnitude of idiocy.

Regardless, I'll wait for Google's car before even remotely trusting auto-driving anything.  Anything else is asking for first-to-market-clusterfark quality.
 
2017-09-12 06:14:24 PM  
While the article didn't make it clear exactly what happened, it sounds like the guy thought the term "auto-pilot" meant completely autonomous driving, which it can't do, and crashed because he wasn't paying attention to the road.

Maybe Tesla should just re-name it "driving-assist."
 
2017-09-12 06:26:53 PM  
The agency said the Autopilot system operated as designed but did not do enough to ensure drivers paid adequate attention. On some roads, drivers could use Autopilot at up to 90 miles (145 km) per hour, it said.
Tesla did not ensure that the system was used only on highways and limited-access roads, as recommended in the owner's manual, a fact that Sumwalt noted.
The NTSB recommended that automakers monitor driver attention in ways other than through detecting steering-wheel engagement.
The system could not reliably detect cross traffic and "did little to constrain the use of autopilot to roadways for which it was designed," the board said.


Seems pretty clear to me.  This is going to cost Tesla a farking bundle.

A spokeswoman for Tesla and a lawyer for the family, Jack Landskroner, have declined to say if the automaker has reached a legal settlement with the Brown family.

Dies anyone need me to translate this for them? Because what it says in english is the dude's family got a minimum 7 figure pay off from tesla.
 
2017-09-12 06:27:08 PM  

koder: "Tesla allowed the driver to use the system outside of the environment for which it was designed and the system gave far too much leeway to the driver to divert his attention."

So... you're saying it's probably still the driver's fault for being an idiot, but Tesla should have anticipated their idiocy and stopped it.  I mean, I don't know the full details here, but if there's one thing I've learned about drivers, it's that there's absolutely no limit to the varieties and magnitude of idiocy.

Regardless, I'll wait for Google's car before even remotely trusting auto-driving anything.  Anything else is asking for first-to-market-clusterfark quality.


Google's cars 🚗 will be in beta for the next 50 years.
 
2017-09-12 06:33:46 PM  

nmrsnr: While the article didn't make it clear exactly what happened, it sounds like the guy thought the term "auto-pilot" meant completely autonomous driving, which it can't do, and crashed because he wasn't paying attention to the road.

Maybe Tesla should just re-name it "driving-assist."


Tesla has been criticized for the longest time for having named, what is essentially enhanced cruise control, Autopilot, and refuses to back down.

You see, squares like you don't understand things that are "hip" and "edgy".  Said things need "Xtreme" names to convey the best in the User Experience.


/I'm old as well
//Marketers are a-holes
///Musk has a big ego, as well
 
2017-09-12 06:42:03 PM  

koder: "Tesla allowed the driver to use the system outside of the environment for which it was designed and the system gave far too much leeway to the driver to divert his attention."

So... you're saying it's probably still the driver's fault for being an idiot, but Tesla should have anticipated their idiocy and stopped it.  I mean, I don't know the full details here, but if there's one thing I've learned about drivers, it's that there's absolutely no limit to the varieties and magnitude of idiocy.


One of my coworkers is fond of saying:  Intelligence might have a ceiling but idiocy has no basement.
 
2017-09-12 06:42:15 PM  
This is the guy who was watching a Harry Potter movie when he crashed, right?
It's tragic that the autopilot was unable to mitigate that disaster, but it's not the autopilot's fault the driver was watching a film, and Tesla seems to be very clear about the need for driver attention at all times and I believe the screen informs you as such when the car is started.

If I roll my vehicle due to my own recklessness can I sue the manufacturer for not anticipating my idiocy beyond a warning sticker on the sun visor?
 
2017-09-12 06:47:45 PM  

Wonktnod: This is the guy who was watching a Harry Potter movie when he crashed, right?
It's tragic that the autopilot was unable to mitigate that disaster, but it's not the autopilot's fault the driver was watching a film, and Tesla seems to be very clear about the need for driver attention at all times and I believe the screen informs you as such when the car is started.

If I roll my vehicle due to my own recklessness can I sue the manufacturer for not anticipating my idiocy beyond a warning sticker on the sun visor?


There should not be any assisted driving on cars whatsoever. Warning sounds and lights when you are approaching a hazard? Sure. But the car should be 100% in control of the driver 100% of the time until such time as assisted driving reaches the point where it needs zero input from the driver. The whole idea of it is absurd and calling anything "autopilot" on a consumer car as the technology exists today is mindboggingly stupid on its face. Not that in Germany for example they are forbidden from using the term. People are stupid - that's a given - we don't need car companies to assist them in being even more stupid.
 
2017-09-12 06:52:18 PM  

Gary-L: Tesla has been criticized for the longest time for having named, what is essentially enhanced cruise control, Autopilot, and refuses to back down.


They did indeed back down for the german market if I'm not mistaken. Great cars. Wonderful technology. And the marketing department needs to butt the fark out. Unforgivingly named feature.
 
2017-09-12 06:53:12 PM  
"An autonomous (or close to it) vehicle was cited as the cause of the crash."
"SEE?! THIS IS WHY THEY SHOULD BE BANNED! ROBOTIC DEATH TRAPS, I'll TELL YA!"
"But for the same number of passenger miles, humans caused 11,412 deaths versus three caused by autonomous vehicles."
"<crickets>"

Only a few years into it and they're several orders of magnitude better than human drivers, but until they're perfect autonomous vehicles will be pilloried as the greatest threats to mankind since ABBA and candy cigarettes. But, please, let's keep mounting the death toll out of "an abundance of caution."


The Real Moral Dilemma of Self-Driving Cars
Youtube WBjY3QGNdAw
 
2017-09-12 06:55:04 PM  

Wonktnod: This is the guy who was watching a Harry Potter movie when he crashed, right?
It's tragic that the autopilot was unable to mitigate that disaster, but it's not the autopilot's fault the driver was watching a film, and Tesla seems to be very clear about the need for driver attention at all times and I believe the screen informs you as such when the car is started.

If I roll my vehicle due to my own recklessness can I sue the manufacturer for not anticipating my idiocy beyond a warning sticker on the sun visor?


In this case you (or your surviving family) would not have to sue in the event you allowed your Tesla "autopilot" to 'automatically pilot' your car into an 18 wheeler - it's pretty clear tesla already paid them off with a generous check.
 
2017-09-12 07:06:33 PM  

Wonktnod: This is the guy who was watching a Harry Potter movie when he crashed, right?
It's tragic that the autopilot was unable to mitigate that disaster, but it's not the autopilot's fault the driver was watching a film, and Tesla seems to be very clear about the need for driver attention at all times and I believe the screen informs you as such when the car is started.

If I roll my vehicle due to my own recklessness can I sue the manufacturer for not anticipating my idiocy beyond a warning sticker on the sun visor?


Ford Explorer owners did.
 
2017-09-12 07:08:33 PM  
I can't wait for the Tesla reviews to roll in.  "The damned car kept bothering me about paying attention while I was dealing with an important email/my screaming child/arguing with my girlfriend/trying to take a nap."

In fail to see how it is the manufacturer's responsibility to ensure that the driver pays attention.  It certainly isn't the case for regular cars.  Is this how it is supposed to do that?
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-09-12 07:49:55 PM  
Driverless cars are vaporware. The fundamental problems of general decisionmaking have not been solved yet. Stop listening to non-experts.

It's gonna be like this (pic of roomba smearing dogshiat around), except instead of dogshiat it will be someone's child.
 
2017-09-12 08:41:53 PM  
What a Tesla might look like...

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-09-12 08:42:35 PM  

JohnBigBootay: Wonktnod: This is the guy who was watching a Harry Potter movie when he crashed, right?
It's tragic that the autopilot was unable to mitigate that disaster, but it's not the autopilot's fault the driver was watching a film, and Tesla seems to be very clear about the need for driver attention at all times and I believe the screen informs you as such when the car is started.

If I roll my vehicle due to my own recklessness can I sue the manufacturer for not anticipating my idiocy beyond a warning sticker on the sun visor?

There should not be any assisted driving on cars whatsoever. Warning sounds and lights when you are approaching a hazard? Sure. But the car should be 100% in control of the driver 100% of the time until such time as assisted driving reaches the point where it needs zero input from the driver. The whole idea of it is absurd and calling anything "autopilot" on a consumer car as the technology exists today is mindboggingly stupid on its face. Not that in Germany for example they are forbidden from using the term. People are stupid - that's a given - we don't need car companies to assist them in being even more stupid.


Since eugenics is frowned upon I fully support natural selection through the Autopilot system.
 
2017-09-12 08:44:17 PM  

Kraftwerk Orange: Wonktnod: This is the guy who was watching a Harry Potter movie when he crashed, right?
It's tragic that the autopilot was unable to mitigate that disaster, but it's not the autopilot's fault the driver was watching a film, and Tesla seems to be very clear about the need for driver attention at all times and I believe the screen informs you as such when the car is started.

If I roll my vehicle due to my own recklessness can I sue the manufacturer for not anticipating my idiocy beyond a warning sticker on the sun visor?

Ford Explorer owners did.


That's because the tires were defective.
 
2017-09-12 08:54:52 PM  

jjwars1: Kraftwerk Orange: Wonktnod: This is the guy who was watching a Harry Potter movie when he crashed, right?
It's tragic that the autopilot was unable to mitigate that disaster, but it's not the autopilot's fault the driver was watching a film, and Tesla seems to be very clear about the need for driver attention at all times and I believe the screen informs you as such when the car is started.

If I roll my vehicle due to my own recklessness can I sue the manufacturer for not anticipating my idiocy beyond a warning sticker on the sun visor?

Ford Explorer owners did.

That's because the tires were defective.


The tires weren't defective, they were underinflated. Firestone had a recommended inflation pressure but Ford wanted a softer ride.
 
2017-09-12 09:05:49 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: The tires weren't defective, they were underinflated. Firestone had a recommended inflation pressure but Ford wanted a softer ride.


My father worked in the plant that made those tires. He made those tires. He made tires that killed people. And to this day he will tell you Ford wanted a *CHEAP* tire as an OEM part, and Firestone willingly supplied them. He knows he made junk tires, and he'll tell you as much.
 
2017-09-12 09:18:08 PM  

Kraftwerk Orange: Wonktnod: This is the guy who was watching a Harry Potter movie when he crashed, right?
It's tragic that the autopilot was unable to mitigate that disaster, but it's not the autopilot's fault the driver was watching a film, and Tesla seems to be very clear about the need for driver attention at all times and I believe the screen informs you as such when the car is started.

If I roll my vehicle due to my own recklessness can I sue the manufacturer for not anticipating my idiocy beyond a warning sticker on the sun visor?

Ford Explorer owners did.


Key part is "due to my own recklessness," I don't consider a tire maintained at factory specs exploding on the highway to be the fault of the driver. Ford and Firestone were definitely at fault there.
 
2017-09-12 09:20:38 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: jjwars1: Kraftwerk Orange: Wonktnod: This is the guy who was watching a Harry Potter movie when he crashed, right?
It's tragic that the autopilot was unable to mitigate that disaster, but it's not the autopilot's fault the driver was watching a film, and Tesla seems to be very clear about the need for driver attention at all times and I believe the screen informs you as such when the car is started.

If I roll my vehicle due to my own recklessness can I sue the manufacturer for not anticipating my idiocy beyond a warning sticker on the sun visor?

Ford Explorer owners did.

That's because the tires were defective.

The tires weren't defective, they were underinflated. Firestone had a recommended inflation pressure but Ford wanted a softer ride.


Sounds like it may have been a combination of both issues: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestone_and_Ford_tire_contr​oversy
 
2017-09-12 09:21:28 PM  
It's probably still safer than letting idiots drive. But you know, let's make a huge deal over a few accidents while ignoring the dickheads driving 100+ MPH during rush hour.
 
2017-09-12 09:41:54 PM  
TFA is some depressing shiat. The report talks of using multiple ways to ensure driver attention and restricting  which roads self driving can be used on. Seems to indicate that NTSB is going to make a hard run at regulating self driving cars out of existence before they even make it out of the gates.
 
2017-09-12 09:52:16 PM  

rdyb: TFA is some depressing shiat. The report talks of using multiple ways to ensure driver attention and restricting  which roads self driving can be used on. Seems to indicate that NTSB is going to make a hard run at regulating self driving cars out of existence before they even make it out of the gates.


Weird. I don't think it says anything of the sort. They didn't address driverless cars at all. Only driver assist technology. You could turn the Google driverless cars loose on the same road right now with no issues.
 
2017-09-12 10:28:51 PM  

arcas: koder: "Tesla allowed the driver to use the system outside of the environment for which it was designed and the system gave far too much leeway to the driver to divert his attention."

So... you're saying it's probably still the driver's fault for being an idiot, but Tesla should have anticipated their idiocy and stopped it.  I mean, I don't know the full details here, but if there's one thing I've learned about drivers, it's that there's absolutely no limit to the varieties and magnitude of idiocy.

One of my coworkers is fond of saying:  Intelligence might have a ceiling but idiocy has no basement.


I have not heard that before but that's a good one. I like Douglas Adams one

A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
 
2017-09-12 11:02:59 PM  

Kraftwerk Orange: Wonktnod: This is the guy who was watching a Harry Potter movie when he crashed, right?
It's tragic that the autopilot was unable to mitigate that disaster, but it's not the autopilot's fault the driver was watching a film, and Tesla seems to be very clear about the need for driver attention at all times and I believe the screen informs you as such when the car is started.

If I roll my vehicle due to my own recklessness can I sue the manufacturer for not anticipating my idiocy beyond a warning sticker on the sun visor?

Ford Explorer owners did.


Bullshiat
 
2017-09-12 11:04:13 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: jjwars1: Kraftwerk Orange: Wonktnod: This is the guy who was watching a Harry Potter movie when he crashed, right?
It's tragic that the autopilot was unable to mitigate that disaster, but it's not the autopilot's fault the driver was watching a film, and Tesla seems to be very clear about the need for driver attention at all times and I believe the screen informs you as such when the car is started.

If I roll my vehicle due to my own recklessness can I sue the manufacturer for not anticipating my idiocy beyond a warning sticker on the sun visor?

Ford Explorer owners did.

That's because the tires were defective.

The tires weren't defective, they were underinflated. Firestone had a recommended inflation pressure but Ford wanted a softer ride.


And that makes it the owners fault.  Idiot.
 
2017-09-13 01:26:11 AM  

bigdanc: Mr. Eugenides: jjwars1: Kraftwerk Orange: Wonktnod: This is the guy who was watching a Harry Potter movie when he crashed, right?
It's tragic that the autopilot was unable to mitigate that disaster, but it's not the autopilot's fault the driver was watching a film, and Tesla seems to be very clear about the need for driver attention at all times and I believe the screen informs you as such when the car is started.

If I roll my vehicle due to my own recklessness can I sue the manufacturer for not anticipating my idiocy beyond a warning sticker on the sun visor?

Ford Explorer owners did.

That's because the tires were defective.

The tires weren't defective, they were underinflated. Firestone had a recommended inflation pressure but Ford wanted a softer ride.

And that makes it the owners fault.  Idiot.


Courts and the NHTSA disagreed strenuously. But you are free to have incorrect opinions. The Ford Explorer tire thing had far more fatalities than the worldwide takata airbag deal. Ford spent half a billion on settlements and led Congress to passing the law that pretty much is why we have all the farking recalls we have today. Or you can go with 'owners fault' if that works for you .
 
2017-09-13 01:27:04 AM  

spamdog: Driverless cars are vaporware. The fundamental problems of general decisionmaking have not been solved yet. Stop listening to non-experts.

It's gonna be like this (pic of roomba smearing dogshiat around), except instead of dogshiat it will be someone's child.


Yeah, better to have the cars driven by drunks, fools, teenagers, and people texting with their friends or applying makeup.
 
2017-09-13 02:27:14 AM  

Gary-L: ///Musk has a big ego, as well


I'm curious.  I hear this all the time, but I've never heard him say anything even remotely trumpish.  What makes people think he does?  Am I missing something?
 
2017-09-13 08:28:12 AM  

koder: Regardless, I'll wait for Google's car before even remotely trusting auto-driving anything.  Anything else is asking for first-to-market-clusterfark quality.


I guess you make people pull the ABS fuse before you get into the car, then?

/Robot braking is just as dangerous as robot steering if it goes wrong
 
2017-09-13 08:57:37 AM  

Hollie Maea: spamdog: Driverless cars are vaporware. The fundamental problems of general decisionmaking have not been solved yet. Stop listening to non-experts.

It's gonna be like this (pic of roomba smearing dogshiat around), except instead of dogshiat it will be someone's child.

Yeah, better to have the cars driven by drunks, fools, teenagers, and people texting with their friends or applying makeup.


So these same people somehow become safe if they are in a car powered by windows?  You are actually proving the point. Distracted drivers are just that, distracted. And drunk drivers are well arse holes.
 
2017-09-13 11:25:51 AM  

Wonktnod: This is the guy who was watching a Harry Potter movie when he crashed, right?
It's tragic that the autopilot was unable to mitigate that disaster, but it's not the autopilot's fault the driver was watching a film, and Tesla seems to be very clear about the need for driver attention at all times and I believe the screen informs you as such when the car is started.

If I roll my vehicle due to my own recklessness can I sue the manufacturer for not anticipating my idiocy beyond a warning sticker on the sun visor?


Paul Walker's Estate did.
 
2017-09-13 12:57:26 PM  

Cpl.D: Gary-L: ///Musk has a big ego, as well

I'm curious.  I hear this all the time, but I've never heard him say anything even remotely trumpish.  What makes people think he does?  Am I missing something?


1) He refuses to rename AutoPilot to something that more accurately describes the feature for what it is, which is enhanced cruise control.

2) He refused to take a more simplistic approach for the Model X by insisting on shiny, new things that complicated production (the Falcon Wing doors, single post seat pedestals).  A search will explain other issues.

3) He has been making bold claims that Model 3 delivery is going to easily meet demand by 2018.  Tesla can barely increase production of Models S and X to keep up with their demands, while the Model 3 has around 300,000 units on backorder.  Tesla is on dire need of an expert in manufacturing and needs increased capacity.

Overall, I like Musk in that he has made some great things happen.  His hubris is his biggest downfall.
 
2017-09-13 06:43:00 PM  
Don't put anything in a car that encourages the driver to take their hands off the wheel until it really does drive itself.  And definitely do not call it "Auto-Pilot."

I get the impression other auto mfrs realize this.  I don't think Tesla's technology is that difficult to reproduce.  I the others are holding back out of responsibility, fiscal and otherwise.
 
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