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(The Daily Beast)   Robert Mueller may have to give Trump immunity--but he could still prosecute him. It's the Kobayashi Maru of Russian entanglement   ( thedailybeast.com) divider line
    More: Ironic, grand jury, Bill Clinton, Trump, President of the United States, Supreme Court of the United States, President Trump, Trump Organization, Trump's business  
•       •       •

2819 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 Sep 2017 at 12:25 PM (12 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-09-11 10:57:49 AM  
Kirk was fictitious. Mueller is real and working in the real world. I won't be shocked when Trump wriggles out of this in some way. I bet he's guilty as hell -- but I will also be shocked if he gets any sort of real punishment. The rich guys always get away with it.
 
2017-09-11 11:10:56 AM  
Does this mean that Hillary Clinton is automatically president?
 
2017-09-11 11:12:46 AM  

rightylefty: Kirk was fictitious. Mueller is real and working in the real world. I won't be shocked when Trump wriggles out of this in some way. I bet he's guilty as hell -- but I will also be shocked if he gets any sort of real punishment. The rich guys always get away with it.


He did have to pay $25 million for the Trump U scam
 
2017-09-11 11:18:37 AM  

cameroncrazy1984: rightylefty: Kirk was fictitious. Mueller is real and working in the real world. I won't be shocked when Trump wriggles out of this in some way. I bet he's guilty as hell -- but I will also be shocked if he gets any sort of real punishment. The rich guys always get away with it.

He did have to pay $25 million for the Trump U scam


which he probably loaned out from Russian mob-connected oligarchs who will call in his debt soon and release his tax returns to the nation.
 
2017-09-11 11:43:51 AM  
I'm curious.  If he's found guilty and charged of at least one crime, what happens?  As far as I know a president can't have a criminal record, is that correct?  Would he have to step down?  Can he go to jail?  (I know he won't, but can he?)  Is a new election held or does Pence just take the reins?
 
2017-09-11 11:53:42 AM  

Psychopusher: If he's found guilty and charged of at least one crime, what happens?


he remains in office until 2020
 
2017-09-11 11:54:26 AM  

Psychopusher: I'm curious.  If he's found guilty and charged of at least one crime, what happens?  As far as I know a president can't have a criminal record, is that correct?  Would he have to step down?  Can he go to jail?  (I know he won't, but can he?)  Is a new election held or does Pence just take the reins?


That's not how this works.jpg

Criminal charges and/or punishment would wait until after he leaves office. Best that can happen while he is president is that the House votes to impeach and the Senate tries and convicts him. At that point he would be removed from the presidency and possibly face charges after that (though I'm not clear if or how double jeopardy would play into that).  The constitution doesn't say anything about a criminal record, so no.

And yes, Pence would become president unless he is implicated too.  Google "presidential succession" to start.
 
2017-09-11 12:06:37 PM  

hobnail: Psychopusher: I'm curious.  If he's found guilty and charged of at least one crime, what happens?  As far as I know a president can't have a criminal record, is that correct?  Would he have to step down?  Can he go to jail?  (I know he won't, but can he?)  Is a new election held or does Pence just take the reins?

That's not how this works.jpg

Criminal charges and/or punishment would wait until after he leaves office. Best that can happen while he is president is that the House votes to impeach and the Senate tries and convicts him. At that point he would be removed from the presidency and possibly face charges after that (though I'm not clear if or how double jeopardy would play into that).  The constitution doesn't say anything about a criminal record, so no.

And yes, Pence would become president unless he is implicated too.  Google "presidential succession" to start.


Thanks.  I wasn't quite sure, these situations don't come up often and there's not a lot of precedent to go by.
 
2017-09-11 12:36:41 PM  

silo123j: Does this mean that Hillary Clinton is automatically president?


Instead of that, is there any way we can get Obama back? Please, no more Clintons.
 
2017-09-11 12:37:40 PM  

Psychopusher: hobnail: Psychopusher: I'm curious.  If he's found guilty and charged of at least one crime, what happens?  As far as I know a president can't have a criminal record, is that correct?  Would he have to step down?  Can he go to jail?  (I know he won't, but can he?)  Is a new election held or does Pence just take the reins?

That's not how this works.jpg

Criminal charges and/or punishment would wait until after he leaves office. Best that can happen while he is president is that the House votes to impeach and the Senate tries and convicts him. At that point he would be removed from the presidency and possibly face charges after that (though I'm not clear if or how double jeopardy would play into that).  The constitution doesn't say anything about a criminal record, so no.

And yes, Pence would become president unless he is implicated too.  Google "presidential succession" to start.

Thanks.  I wasn't quite sure, these situations don't come up often and there's not a lot of precedent to go by.


Constitutional scholars like to debate whether the President can be charged with a crime when they're bored/drunk.  But the official opinion of the Justice Department is that he would have to be impeached first.
 
2017-09-11 12:38:00 PM  
Trump will take a deal to protect his kids and himself. Maybe to protect just his kids. Certainly just to protect himself.

Of course the terms of the deal will be sealed. With no admission of criminal guilt or civil liability. And of course a guaranteed book deal.
 
2017-09-11 12:38:33 PM  
If there's nigh incontrovertible evidence of a serious crime, there would be too much outcry not to impeach. Really, the defense going is to do ANYTHING to prevent it from being cut and dried. Mueller is overreaching. Comey was in the democrats' pocket. Also insane. Media is conducting a witch hunt. The crime is political, not criminal. Democrats do the same thing. Etc.

/well, incontrovertible proof AND enough sway against his base
 
2017-09-11 12:39:02 PM  

Psychopusher: I'm curious.  If he's found guilty and charged of at least one crime, what happens?  As far as I know a president can't have a criminal record, is that correct?  Would he have to step down?  Can he go to jail?  (I know he won't, but can he?)  Is a new election held or does Pence just take the reins?


Nothing happens. Ryan and McConnell will announce their "concern" and respect that "Trump is learning on the job" and life continues as normal.
 
2017-09-11 12:40:17 PM  

rightylefty: Kirk was fictitious. Mueller is real and working in the real world. I won't be shocked when Trump wriggles out of this in some way. I bet he's guilty as hell -- but I will also be shocked if he gets any sort of real punishment. The rich guys always get away with it.


Ken Lay, Martha Stewart, and soon Pharma Bro beg to differ.

/Well not Lay, he's dead
 
2017-09-11 12:41:10 PM  

Psychopusher: As far as I know a president can't have a criminal record, is that correct?


That rule only applies to democratic presidents.  Republican presidents get a pass on that.
 
2017-09-11 12:41:41 PM  
Would Trump just tweet his testimony?
 
2017-09-11 12:42:32 PM  

Teaser: Would Trump just tweet his testimony?


Oh, I have a feeling at least one tweet will be included as evidence during the grand jury.
 
2017-09-11 12:42:41 PM  

hobnail: Best that can happen while he is president is that the House votes to impeach and the Senate tries and convicts him.


Yeah, but if you look at the P90X schedule, there is no Spine day. Many workouts that work your back, but no spine.

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-09-11 12:42:59 PM  

Fireproof: rightylefty: Kirk was fictitious. Mueller is real and working in the real world. I won't be shocked when Trump wriggles out of this in some way. I bet he's guilty as hell -- but I will also be shocked if he gets any sort of real punishment. The rich guys always get away with it.

Ken Lay, Martha Stewart, and soon Pharma Bro beg to differ.

/Well not Lay, he's dead


I heard his heart attack made his head explode.
 
2017-09-11 12:45:20 PM  

hobnail: Google "presidential succession" to start.


It suddenly occurs to me that we could get Trump to admit to everything, on the record, if we just talked in the right way about "Unpresidented Successes"
 
2017-09-11 12:46:34 PM  

Psychopusher: Thanks.  I wasn't quite sure, these situations don't come up often and there's not a lot of precedent to go by.


It's unpresidented!
 
2017-09-11 12:46:39 PM  

priapic_abandon2: silo123j: Does this mean that Hillary Clinton is automatically president?

Instead of that, is there any way we can get Obama back? Please, no more Clintons.


Hillary is a Rodham not a Clinton.
 
2017-09-11 12:47:03 PM  

hobnail: though I'm not clear if or how double jeopardy would play into that


Judgement in Cases of Impreachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgement and Punishment, according to Law. Article 1, Section 3, Clauses  7

Impeachment is a means of removing someone who has misused their office which is what the English term High Crimes and Misdemeanors means. Trail afterwards is about justice
 
2017-09-11 12:48:06 PM  

JolobinSmokin: priapic_abandon2: silo123j: Does this mean that Hillary Clinton is automatically president?

Instead of that, is there any way we can get Obama back? Please, no more Clintons.

Hillary is a Rodham not a Clinton.


She's essentially a Sackville Baggins.
 
2017-09-11 12:51:28 PM  

hobnail: Psychopusher: I'm curious.  If he's found guilty and charged of at least one crime, what happens?  As far as I know a president can't have a criminal record, is that correct?  Would he have to step down?  Can he go to jail?  (I know he won't, but can he?)  Is a new election held or does Pence just take the reins?

That's not how this works.jpg

Criminal charges and/or punishment would wait until after he leaves office. Best that can happen while he is president is that the House votes to impeach and the Senate tries and convicts him. At that point he would be removed from the presidency and possibly face charges after that (though I'm not clear if or how double jeopardy would play into that).  The constitution doesn't say anything about a criminal record, so no.

And yes, Pence would become president unless he is implicated too.  Google "presidential succession" to start.


That's not how it works either. The question of whether a President can be criminally charged is far from settled, there is nothing in the Constitution prohibiting it, and the much stronger constitutional case is that the President is indeed not above the law and can be charged with a crime the same as any other politician. Yes, the Special Counsel during Watergate wasn't sure he could and refused to indict Nixon even though the grand jury wanted him to, but the various reasons he gave were contradicted by the civil suit against Clinton, and Ken Starr had an official legal memo written about why he could charge the President if it came to that. Not to mention that Spiro Agnew was forced to resign due to a pending indictment- he took a plea deal on the same day he resigned as VP, so clearly the DoJ was fine going after a Vice President, and the VP is a constitutional officer of the executive branch same as the President, so it's difficult to argue that you can indict one and not the other. Current DoJ policy says that Presidents can't be charged in office, but Mueller is not bound by that. If he wants to file charges against Donald Trump, he has that power. There is nothing stopping him from filing charges- Trump might file an appeal on the "you can't charge me!" grounds, but I don't see it as very likely to get a sympathetic hearing given the charges he'll be facing, and the fact that if Mueller brings those charges, he will have had it down cold.

So what happens in the event that Mueller files charges? Well, they'll be a massive legal battle, because Trump won't resign. Even if convicted, a President can continue serving from a jail cell- in theory. There's nothing in the Constitution about the President having a criminal record, or what happens if they get one in office (speaking of which, Grant and his speeding ticket might actually be precedent here- that would be funny). The confidence of the voters is all you need to be President, and you stay President until impeachment, resignation, or removal by the cabinet.

Speaking of which, that's what likely happens. Most any President under criminal indictment would resign in disgrace. But Trump wouldn't, we all know that. So that leaves impeachment or removal by the cabinet. If the VP, with half the Cabinet, says so, the President is declared disabled and the VP becomes Acting President. If the President contests it, the question goes to Congress. So regardless, we end up with Congress deciding the question, and ultimately, I think they would be forced to impeach. Republicans know that they can't actively support treason, and so would impeach and remove, making Pence President. Unless Pence is implicated too, in which case they would impeach both, making the Speaker of the House President.
 
2017-09-11 12:51:34 PM  
Why would they cut a deal with Trump? If he takes the 5th that looks amazing for democrats. If he's honest and had some connection with Russia or knew about a connection with Russia, that is also amazing for democrats. If he's honest and had nothing to do with Russia (lol) no one will believe him and it's great for democrats. There is no good outcome for Republicans with Trump in this

Also Trump can't be pardoned if he's impeached. Look for him to cut a deal with Pence and step down when the heat gets turned way up and a last second string of pardons for everyone including Pence.
 
2017-09-11 12:51:37 PM  

snowshovel: Psychopusher: I'm curious.  If he's found guilty and charged of at least one crime, what happens?  As far as I know a president can't have a criminal record, is that correct?  Would he have to step down?  Can he go to jail?  (I know he won't, but can he?)  Is a new election held or does Pence just take the reins?

Nothing happens. Ryan and McConnell will announce their "concern" and respect that "Trump is learning on the job" and life continues as normal.


 Largely depends on the report, how much, how bad, how true and whether they can then suppress enough of it if it is. Otherwise, expect the howls from the forming crowds to motivate a sacrifice from the Hill.
 I suspect however, we will only see a heavily redacted version, so I guess bend over and lube up?
 
2017-09-11 12:52:31 PM  

Psychopusher: As far as I know a president can't have a criminal record, is that correct?


This is not correct. The only legal qualifications for president are those set out at Art. II, section 1, cl. 5: "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."
 
2017-09-11 12:53:42 PM  

rightylefty: Kirk was fictitious. Mueller is real and working in the real world. I won't be shocked when Trump wriggles out of this in some way. I bet he's guilty as hell -- but I will also be shocked if he gets any sort of real punishment. The rich guys always get away with it.


I suspect that after his decades of shady business dealings, Trump is pretty good at insulating himself. That is, I think it's way more likely that there are smoking guns with the kids and staff than with him.
 
2017-09-11 12:54:53 PM  

J.R. 'Bob' Chinaski: Why would they cut a deal with Trump? If he takes the 5th that looks amazing for democrats. If he's honest and had some connection with Russia or knew about a connection with Russia, that is also amazing for democrats. If he's honest and had nothing to do with Russia (lol) no one will believe him and it's great for democrats. There is no good outcome for Republicans with Trump in this

Also Trump can't be pardoned if he's impeached. Look for him to cut a deal with Pence and step down when the heat gets turned way up and a last second string of pardons for everyone including Pence.


One correction.  It's not great for Democrats only.  It's great for literally everyone in the world without the last name "Trump".  Whether they realize it or not.

I thought Bush was a dangerously inept president.  He looks positively statesmanlike next to this asswipe.
 
2017-09-11 12:57:42 PM  

ArkPanda: Psychopusher: hobnail: Psychopusher: I'm curious.  If he's found guilty and charged of at least one crime, what happens?  As far as I know a president can't have a criminal record, is that correct?  Would he have to step down?  Can he go to jail?  (I know he won't, but can he?)  Is a new election held or does Pence just take the reins?

That's not how this works.jpg

Criminal charges and/or punishment would wait until after he leaves office. Best that can happen while he is president is that the House votes to impeach and the Senate tries and convicts him. At that point he would be removed from the presidency and possibly face charges after that (though I'm not clear if or how double jeopardy would play into that).  The constitution doesn't say anything about a criminal record, so no.

And yes, Pence would become president unless he is implicated too.  Google "presidential succession" to start.

Thanks.  I wasn't quite sure, these situations don't come up often and there's not a lot of precedent to go by.

Constitutional scholars like to debate whether the President can be charged with a crime when they're bored/drunk.  But the official opinion of the Justice Department is that he would have to be impeached first.


This.  And there are reasons. 
You want to have an established method to remove a criminal or out of control president. 
but
You don't want every Joe schmo police officer and state or city DA trying to charge a president with crimes just because they don't like the guy. 

Just imagine if every DA in Texas and Oklahoma was running around indicting Obama to make him sound worse.    "just look at all these crimes he's accused of."  

So while there is talk of the Mueller teaming up with the Attorney General for the  State of New York, they could only indict Trump after he leaves office.  

as a reference: 
Nixon was listed as an unindicted co-conspirator by the Watergate Grand Jury under the direct of Special Prosecutor Leon Jaworski. 

Cite: http://www.nytimes.com/1974/06/07/archives/jury-named-nixon-a-c​oconspi​rator-but-didnt-indict-st-clair-confirms.html?mcubz=3
 
2017-09-11 01:04:25 PM  
Kobayashi Maru? The Chinese are involved now?

You libs have really gone off in the deep end!
 
2017-09-11 01:07:15 PM  

Mercutio74: J.R. 'Bob' Chinaski: Why would they cut a deal with Trump? If he takes the 5th that looks amazing for democrats. If he's honest and had some connection with Russia or knew about a connection with Russia, that is also amazing for democrats. If he's honest and had nothing to do with Russia (lol) no one will believe him and it's great for democrats. There is no good outcome for Republicans with Trump in this

Also Trump can't be pardoned if he's impeached. Look for him to cut a deal with Pence and step down when the heat gets turned way up and a last second string of pardons for everyone including Pence.

One correction.  It's not great for Democrats only.  It's great for literally everyone in the world without the last name "Trump".  Whether they realize it or not.

I thought Bush was a dangerously inept president.  He looks positively statesmanlike next to this asswipe.


It would be great for everyone (but the republicans in congress). However can you picture Trump with limited immunity getting asked a question he still has to take the 5th on? The optics would be terrible, it'd run 24/7 on cable news. There is no way the republicans will allow it, it'll have to be dragged out.
 
2017-09-11 01:09:11 PM  
Dear Daily Beast,

You don't give the Mafia Don immunity to flip on his subordinates. That's the exact opposite of how it works.

Sincerely,
People with brains
 
2017-09-11 01:11:36 PM  

J.R. 'Bob' Chinaski: Why would they cut a deal with Trump? If he takes the 5th that looks amazing for democrats. If he's honest and had some connection with Russia or knew about a connection with Russia, that is also amazing for democrats. If he's honest and had nothing to do with Russia (lol) no one will believe him and it's great for democrats. There is no good outcome for Republicans with Trump in this

Also Trump can't be pardoned if he's impeached. Look for him to cut a deal with Pence and step down when the heat gets turned way up and a last second string of pardons for everyone including Pence.


I've lost any faith in this being the outcome, but I do admire your optimism and feel a bit better having read it
 
2017-09-11 01:18:05 PM  

Boo_Guy: Kobayashi Maru? The Chinese are involved now?

You libs have really gone off in the deep end!


img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-09-11 01:19:54 PM  

PoweredByIrony: hobnail: Google "presidential succession" to start.

It suddenly occurs to me that we could get Trump to admit to everything, on the record, if we just talked in the right way about "Unpresidented Successes"


Perhaps, just tell him that Obama never admitted committing any of the big crimes Trump's been accused of.
 
2017-09-11 01:20:06 PM  
No.

This is stupid.  Immunity for Donnie is unlikely to be useful for any situation with Mueller's investigation.  Mueller does not need, and has no incentive to offer, immunity for Donnie.  If he fails to testify, we'll have a repeat of US v. Nixon.  He'll be found in civil contempt.

If Mueller immunizes Donnie, we have no reason to believe he'll suddenly decide to testify then, or that if he does, his testimony will be anything other than garbage.

In other Mueller-related news, apparently the "conflict of interest" talking points are on hiatus.  Lumpy hasn't tweeted about that, or even used Mueller's name for nearly a month.

img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-09-11 01:22:25 PM  
Mueller can't give immunity to someone that can only be impeached and removed by congress.
 
2017-09-11 01:36:29 PM  

Psychopusher: hobnail: Psychopusher: I'm curious.  If he's found guilty and charged of at least one crime, what happens?  As far as I know a president can't have a criminal record, is that correct?  Would he have to step down?  Can he go to jail?  (I know he won't, but can he?)  Is a new election held or does Pence just take the reins?

That's not how this works.jpg

Criminal charges and/or punishment would wait until after he leaves office. Best that can happen while he is president is that the House votes to impeach and the Senate tries and convicts him. At that point he would be removed from the presidency and possibly face charges after that (though I'm not clear if or how double jeopardy would play into that).  The constitution doesn't say anything about a criminal record, so no.

And yes, Pence would become president unless he is implicated too.  Google "presidential succession" to start.

Thanks.  I wasn't quite sure, these situations don't come up often and there's not a lot of precedent to go by.


1. There's no test for having a criminal record.
2. As stated, it is questionable whether he can be prosecuted at all during his presidency.  Grand Jury probably just compile evidence for impeachment hearing if any.
3. Frankly I think even if he were impeached, then convicted (Bill Clinton was impeached but not convicted), he could still run for President in 2020 and win and become president again.

But he won't be impeached so this is rather a moot point.
 
2017-09-11 01:38:03 PM  

hobnail: Psychopusher: I'm curious.  If he's found guilty and charged of at least one crime, what happens?  As far as I know a president can't have a criminal record, is that correct?  Would he have to step down?  Can he go to jail?  (I know he won't, but can he?)  Is a new election held or does Pence just take the reins?

That's not how this works.jpg

Criminal charges and/or punishment would wait until after he leaves office. Best that can happen while he is president is that the House votes to impeach and the Senate tries and convicts him. At that point he would be removed from the presidency and possibly face charges after that (though I'm not clear if or how double jeopardy would play into that).  The constitution doesn't say anything about a criminal record, so no.

And yes, Pence would become president unless he is implicated too.  Google "presidential succession" to start.


You mean like how Spiro Agnew became president?
/actually Agnew didn't get charged with anything related to Watergate (that I know of)
//he was already in jail for tax evasion
///all those bribes he didn't pay taxes on
 
2017-09-11 01:39:59 PM  
Trump Org (and any other companies) can be charged with crimes & cannot be pardoned.  If the Legal Entities are convicted, all assets can be seized (cash, real estate, patents, trademarks, etc.)
// I want to buy the rights to Trump Escorts at govt auction.
 
2017-09-11 01:40:02 PM  

andrewagill: his testimony will be anything other than garbage


I was thinking the same thing.  Donnie is unhinged.  Immunity to him would be "I won" and he will likely just say how smart he is and how big his hearings are compared to Obama.
 
2017-09-11 01:40:05 PM  

andrewagill: If Mueller immunizes Donnie, we have no reason to believe he'll suddenly decide to testify then, or that if he does, his testimony will be anything other than garbage.


I don't think Trump, currently, would take immunity for testimony either. If he's honest and it looks bad the immunity doesn't save him from impeachment. If he's dishonest for optics it'll come out and then there will be yet another real crime, which will open him up even more for impeachment
 
2017-09-11 01:41:12 PM  
img.fark.netView Full Size


Hey guys, what's going on in this thread?
 
2017-09-11 01:42:01 PM  
Did someone say, "Maru"?

Maru Greatest Hits V1
Youtube 8uDuls5TyNE
 
2017-09-11 01:43:30 PM  
Dear god, I've been TRICKED!

Sincerely apologies to the real Maru.
 
2017-09-11 01:44:30 PM  

Mercutio74: Teaser: Would Trump just tweet his testimony?

Oh, I have a feeling at least one tweet will be included as evidence during the grand jury.


Seeing Trump on the stand would be the highlight of my life.
 
2017-09-11 01:47:05 PM  

JolobinSmokin: priapic_abandon2: silo123j: Does this mean that Hillary Clinton is automatically president?

Instead of that, is there any way we can get Obama back? Please, no more Clintons.

Hillary is a Rodham not a Clinton.


And a stunningly bad retail candidate.
 
2017-09-11 01:47:21 PM  

Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: Trump will take a deal to protect his kids and himself. Maybe to protect just his kids. Certainly just to protect himself.  Of course the terms of the deal will be sealed. With no admission of criminal guilt or civil liability. And of course a guaranteed book deal.


I think a good title of the book would be, "If I Did It".
 
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