Do you have adblock enabled?
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Vox)   The coal industry is going out, but not with the whimper you'd expect   ( vox.com) divider line
    More: Giggity, coal, Fossil fuel, Trump, coal plants, coal industry, natural gas, Appalachian coal, coal miners  
•       •       •

3669 clicks; posted to Politics » on 26 Aug 2017 at 1:54 AM (8 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



43 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2017-08-25 10:19:44 PM  
While dying, coal is taking: you, your kids, and all your friends with them. So, they're going out with all the noises that everyone you love or care about can make
 
2017-08-25 10:58:33 PM  
Pope tallies up the favors: allowing companies to dodge their pension and health care obligations to retirees

But remember this is all about the workers.
 
2017-08-25 11:27:17 PM  
Trump can either force electric cos to keep coal plants open (at the point of a gun, due to the "national emergency") or pay $4.5 billion per year to make coal competitive.

Choices, choices.

Trump will probably do both.
 
2017-08-26 12:47:20 AM  

wejash: Trump can either force electric cos to keep coal plants open (at the point of a gun, due to the "national emergency") or pay $4.5 billion per year to make coal competitive.

Choices, choices.

Trump will probably do both.


Only if his family stands to profit from it. Otherwise, he'll say some lies to get applause and then forget all about it.
 
2017-08-26 01:59:45 AM  
As we move towards a more fully mechanized world, the displacement of workers will need to be addressed in some way. These are just the first fits and starts in that process.

Today we're looking at ways to hold on to those jobs, by hook or by crook (get it? Trump's a crook. LOL).

Tomorrow, we'll be paying displaced entire communities as their jobs are made obsolete.
 
2017-08-26 02:02:58 AM  
If you want to have fun, tell people who support coal that coal plants are so radioactive they can trip nuclear plant alarms. Beaver Valley Nuclear is right next to Bruce Mansfield Coal, and if the wind's just right it'll play hell with Beaver Valley's monitoring.

/happens all over the place
//Bruce Mansfield catches their fly ash and conveyor belts it next door to be turned into drywall
///so that's cool
 
2017-08-26 02:03:57 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: As we move towards a more fully mechanized world, the displacement of workers will need to be addressed in some way. These are just the first fits and starts in that process.

Today we're looking at ways to hold on to those jobs, by hook or by crook (get it? Trump's a crook. LOL).

Tomorrow, we'll be paying displaced entire communities as their jobs are made obsolete.


Just how many displaced workers will there be from coal? 50,000? 100,000? If they're willing and able, we can easily find better options for them. The problem, as I understand it, is that they're not willing to move to another field. They want their black lungs and work digging for coal and, dammit, that's what they're going to do for the rest of their lives. If that's the case, fark'em.
 
2017-08-26 02:05:56 AM  
Classic rent seeking.
 
2017-08-26 02:07:36 AM  

dericwater: AverageAmericanGuy: As we move towards a more fully mechanized world, the displacement of workers will need to be addressed in some way. These are just the first fits and starts in that process.

Today we're looking at ways to hold on to those jobs, by hook or by crook (get it? Trump's a crook. LOL).

Tomorrow, we'll be paying displaced entire communities as their jobs are made obsolete.

Just how many displaced workers will there be from coal? 50,000? 100,000? If they're willing and able, we can easily find better options for them. The problem, as I understand it, is that they're not willing to move to another field. They want their black lungs and work digging for coal and, dammit, that's what they're going to do for the rest of their lives. If that's the case, fark'em.


That's the most Republican thing I've read all day. Farkie for you!
 
2017-08-26 02:08:51 AM  
fark coal. It's a dead industry. Allow it to die with dignity or kicking and screaming .. just go away.
 
2017-08-26 02:18:23 AM  
With a bang, then

users.skynet.be

/ Typical
 
2017-08-26 02:24:57 AM  
I still burn a lump of coal in my fireplace for heat, while I listen to all my music on wax cylinders.
 
2017-08-26 02:32:21 AM  
img.fark.net
 
2017-08-26 02:33:28 AM  
Oh, they're whimpering...
 
2017-08-26 02:38:20 AM  
But just as there are alleged to be no atheists in foxholes, there are no free marketeers in dying industries.

And no small-government zealot too pure to refuse government assistance.
 
2017-08-26 03:16:04 AM  

Ringshadow: If you want to have fun, tell people who support coal that coal plants are so radioactive they can trip nuclear plant alarms. Beaver Valley Nuclear is right next to Bruce Mansfield Coal, and if the wind's just right it'll play hell with Beaver Valley's monitoring.

/happens all over the place
//Bruce Mansfield catches their fly ash and conveyor belts it next door to be turned into drywall
///so that's cool


I am curious as to where you heard that, given my familiarity with said plants and ability to look into the documentation of said occurrences.
 
2017-08-26 03:23:51 AM  

dericwater: Just how many displaced workers will there be from coal? 50,000? 100,000? If they're willing and able, we can easily find better options for them. The problem, as I understand it, is that they're not willing to move to another field. They want their black lungs and work digging for coal and, dammit, that's what they're going to do for the rest of their lives. If that's the case, fark'em.


There are just under 100K coal mining jobs in the US.  The Appalachia Basin employs about 60% of them, producing about 25% of the country's coal.  Meanwhile, the Powder River Basin employs about 10% of the country's coal-mining workforce, but produces 45% of the country's coal.

The coal seams at PRB are thick and easy to access using conventional strip mining.  Meanwhile, the coal seams in Appalachia require either complex mountain removal or traditional underground mining.  Even with all of the new mining machines, it takes a lot of labor.  And while Appalachia coal burns hotter than PRB coal, it is also dirtier, so it requires expensive scrubbers to meet air pollution standards.

So while Appalachia coal companies like to complain about that last issue, the larger issue is that they're getting their asses handed to them by more efficient operations out west and by the low cost of natural gas due to fracking.

The people who see how bleak it all is are moving out.  I met a bunch of folks from Appalachia while I was in the military.  But they're stubborn, have multiple generations of family in one area, and are under the false belief that their industry can be saved for one more generation.  Which sucks, because between the brain drain and the toxic waste they're spewing over their own land, it'll be difficult to recover when coal is gone from the area.
 
2017-08-26 03:30:46 AM  

Nuc_E: Ringshadow: If you want to have fun, tell people who support coal that coal plants are so radioactive they can trip nuclear plant alarms. Beaver Valley Nuclear is right next to Bruce Mansfield Coal, and if the wind's just right it'll play hell with Beaver Valley's monitoring.

/happens all over the place
//Bruce Mansfield catches their fly ash and conveyor belts it next door to be turned into drywall
///so that's cool

I am curious as to where you heard that, given my familiarity with said plants and ability to look into the documentation of said occurrences.


There is a trace amount of radioactive material in the feedstock coal. Normally, that wouldn't be a problem, but when you vaporize 100 rail cars per hour of coal, things tend to add up. The heavier elements, namely the radioactive ones in this discussion, either don't burn or form non-volitile oxides. In either case, they are entrained in the exhaust plume and become airborne, only to later fall to the ground. Good times!

/SuperClean Coal™
 
2017-08-26 03:50:37 AM  

RunsLikeRiver: Nuc_E: Ringshadow: If you want to have fun, tell people who support coal that coal plants are so radioactive they can trip nuclear plant alarms. Beaver Valley Nuclear is right next to Bruce Mansfield Coal, and if the wind's just right it'll play hell with Beaver Valley's monitoring.

/happens all over the place
//Bruce Mansfield catches their fly ash and conveyor belts it next door to be turned into drywall
///so that's cool

I am curious as to where you heard that, given my familiarity with said plants and ability to look into the documentation of said occurrences.

There is a trace amount of radioactive material in the feedstock coal. Normally, that wouldn't be a problem, but when you vaporize 100 rail cars per hour of coal, things tend to add up. The heavier elements, namely the radioactive ones in this discussion, either don't burn or form non-volitile oxides. In either case, they are entrained in the exhaust plume and become airborne, only to later fall to the ground. Good times!

/SuperClean Coal™


I know this.  I was talking in regards to setting of rad alarms at the Beave.
 
2017-08-26 04:17:03 AM  

RunsLikeRiver: Nuc_E: Ringshadow: If you want to have fun, tell people who support coal that coal plants are so radioactive they can trip nuclear plant alarms. Beaver Valley Nuclear is right next to Bruce Mansfield Coal, and if the wind's just right it'll play hell with Beaver Valley's monitoring.

/happens all over the place
//Bruce Mansfield catches their fly ash and conveyor belts it next door to be turned into drywall
///so that's cool

I am curious as to where you heard that, given my familiarity with said plants and ability to look into the documentation of said occurrences.

There is a trace amount of radioactive material in the feedstock coal. Normally, that wouldn't be a problem, but when you vaporize 100 rail cars per hour of coal, things tend to add up. The heavier elements, namely the radioactive ones in this discussion, either don't burn or form non-volitile oxides. In either case, they are entrained in the exhaust plume and become airborne, only to later fall to the ground. Good times!

/SuperClean Coal™


As part of my mechanical engineering degree I took a few courses in nuclear engineering, of which one dealt with radioactive waste management and disposal.  One of the things that I remember from that course is that coal ash checks all of the boxes to be considered as low-level radioactive waste, but because we're making so damn much of it the federal regulations dealing with such things specifically exempt it from being considered as such, freeing its producers from having to dispose of it accordingly.

IIRC it's a pretty low-level alpha-particle emitter, about on the level of granite or shale, but the problem is that it's being emitted in huge quantities in a very inhalable form.

/Not to mention all of the mercury and sulfur oxides on top of that
//The specific rule is somewhere in Title 40 CFR, but I'll be damned if I spend any more of my Saturday sifting through regs
 
2017-08-26 05:28:17 AM  

Robo Beat: RunsLikeRiver: Nuc_E: Ringshadow: If you want to have fun, tell people who support coal that coal plants are so radioactive they can trip nuclear plant alarms. Beaver Valley Nuclear is right next to Bruce Mansfield Coal, and if the wind's just right it'll play hell with Beaver Valley's monitoring.

/happens all over the place
//Bruce Mansfield catches their fly ash and conveyor belts it next door to be turned into drywall
///so that's cool

I am curious as to where you heard that, given my familiarity with said plants and ability to look into the documentation of said occurrences.

There is a trace amount of radioactive material in the feedstock coal. Normally, that wouldn't be a problem, but when you vaporize 100 rail cars per hour of coal, things tend to add up. The heavier elements, namely the radioactive ones in this discussion, either don't burn or form non-volitile oxides. In either case, they are entrained in the exhaust plume and become airborne, only to later fall to the ground. Good times!

/SuperClean Coal™

As part of my mechanical engineering degree I took a few courses in nuclear engineering, of which one dealt with radioactive waste management and disposal.  One of the things that I remember from that course is that coal ash checks all of the boxes to be considered as low-level radioactive waste, but because we're making so damn much of it the federal regulations dealing with such things specifically exempt it from being considered as such, freeing its producers from having to dispose of it accordingly.

IIRC it's a pretty low-level alpha-particle emitter, about on the level of granite or shale, but the problem is that it's being emitted in huge quantities in a very inhalable form.

/Not to mention all of the mercury and sulfur oxides on top of that
//The specific rule is somewhere in Title 40 CFR, but I'll be damned if I spend any more of my Saturday sifting through regs


The fly ash is horrible to. Sort of a mystery why they don't just return it to the coal mining towns it came from.

As for the sources, the alphas will only travel about an inch before ionic recombination happens making some nice neutral helium.  So those aren't setting off the detectors from the ash piles*. It is certainly some gamma's wrecking everyone's day like gamma's always do. Makes detection easy though.  Still, nothing worth even being concerned about.

*Ingestion of alpha sources is of course super dangerous (looking at you Po-210).
 
2017-08-26 07:03:53 AM  

fusillade762: Pope tallies up the favors: allowing companies to dodge their pension and health care obligations to retirees

But remember this is all about the workers.


Indentured servitude is a kind of job security...
=Smidge=
 
2017-08-26 08:14:07 AM  
kansascity.legalexaminer.com

Oblig
 
2017-08-26 08:48:20 AM  

Dinjiin: dericwater: Just how many displaced workers will there be from coal? 50,000? 100,000? If they're willing and able, we can easily find better options for them. The problem, as I understand it, is that they're not willing to move to another field. They want their black lungs and work digging for coal and, dammit, that's what they're going to do for the rest of their lives. If that's the case, fark'em.

There are just under 100K coal mining jobs in the US.  The Appalachia Basin employs about 60% of them, producing about 25% of the country's coal.  Meanwhile, the Powder River Basin employs about 10% of the country's coal-mining workforce, but produces 45% of the country's coal.

The coal seams at PRB are thick and easy to access using conventional strip mining.  Meanwhile, the coal seams in Appalachia require either complex mountain removal or traditional underground mining.  Even with all of the new mining machines, it takes a lot of labor.  And while Appalachia coal burns hotter than PRB coal, it is also dirtier, so it requires expensive scrubbers to meet air pollution standards.

So while Appalachia coal companies like to complain about that last issue, the larger issue is that they're getting their asses handed to them by more efficient operations out west and by the low cost of natural gas due to fracking.

The people who see how bleak it all is are moving out.  I met a bunch of folks from Appalachia while I was in the military.  But they're stubborn, have multiple generations of family in one area, and are under the false belief that their industry can be saved for one more generation.  Which sucks, because between the brain drain and the toxic waste they're spewing over their own land, it'll be difficult to recover when coal is gone from the area.


So what I get out of this is that the air pollution standards are way too high.
 
2017-08-26 09:26:45 AM  
Let's be clear - the confederacy was a group of states who wanted to break apart the United States to ensure they had the right to own African Americans. These statues serve/d no purpose other than to intimidate African Americans and other minorities and to try to add legitimacy to the confederates reason for existence. There are statues to confederate soldiers and generals in more states than there were in the confederacy. They have sprouted up throughout history during Jim Crowe laws and afterwards.
Tragic that so many racist, poorly educated rural people support this blatant exercise in intimidation.
Even the German Nazis learned from their mistakes and razed the monuments to their former leaders,
 
2017-08-26 09:36:12 AM  

Dinjiin: dericwater: Just how many displaced workers will there be from coal? 50,000? 100,000? If they're willing and able, we can easily find better options for them. The problem, as I understand it, is that they're not willing to move to another field. They want their black lungs and work digging for coal and, dammit, that's what they're going to do for the rest of their lives. If that's the case, fark'em.

There are just under 100K coal mining jobs in the US.  The Appalachia Basin employs about 60% of them, producing about 25% of the country's coal.  Meanwhile, the Powder River Basin employs about 10% of the country's coal-mining workforce, but produces 45% of the country's coal.

The coal seams at PRB are thick and easy to access using conventional strip mining.  Meanwhile, the coal seams in Appalachia require either complex mountain removal or traditional underground mining.  Even with all of the new mining machines, it takes a lot of labor.  And while Appalachia coal burns hotter than PRB coal, it is also dirtier, so it requires expensive scrubbers to meet air pollution standards.

So while Appalachia coal companies like to complain about that last issue, the larger issue is that they're getting their asses handed to them by more efficient operations out west and by the low cost of natural gas due to fracking.


The kicker is that the market for Powder River coal was created by the EPA.
Before regulations were enacted to cope with acid rain in the 1970s, low-sulfur Powder River coal was too low in Btus and transportation costs too high to be compeittive with Appalachia.
 
2017-08-26 09:43:36 AM  
"Creative destruction" is a term I wish more people would use, especially when someone says government needs to be run like a business.

It's the core motivator of Capitalism- if someone can fulfill a market niche better than you, then their business will succeed, and yours will fail. At its core, the free market runs on fear. And it's effective. It works. It needs regulation, mind you, and oversight- even Adam Smith said that- but it works.

And it's the reason why anyone who understands business will tell you that government should never be run like a business. Because, for the free market to do what it does, and engage in creative destruction, it must be possible for a business to fail, and be destroyed.
 
2017-08-26 09:48:40 AM  
This is me not giving a rat's arse about coal miners, their families or their communities. And don't think you're going to wander into urban areas looking for work. We don't want to see or smell your kind. For reference, read "the grapes of wrath". Oh wait. Get "the grapes of wrath" on an audio book.
 
2017-08-26 09:54:43 AM  

Turbo Cojones: Let's be clear - the confederacy was a group of states who wanted to break apart the United States to ensure they had the right to own African Americans. These statues serve/d no purpose other than to intimidate African Americans and other minorities and to try to add legitimacy to the confederates reason for existence. There are statues to confederate soldiers and generals in more states than there were in the confederacy. They have sprouted up throughout history during Jim Crowe laws and afterwards.
Tragic that so many racist, poorly educated rural people support this blatant exercise in intimidation.
Even the German Nazis learned from their mistakes and razed the monuments to their former leaders,


I had not heard of the Confederate Coal Statues.
 
2017-08-26 09:55:11 AM  

Ringshadow: If you want to have fun, tell people who support coal that coal plants are so radioactive they can trip nuclear plant alarms. Beaver Valley Nuclear is right next to Bruce Mansfield Coal, and if the wind's just right it'll play hell with Beaver Valley's monitoring.

/happens all over the place
//Bruce Mansfield catches their fly ash and conveyor belts it next door to be turned into drywall
///so that's cool


Is that true?
 
2017-08-26 10:01:26 AM  

Turbo Cojones: Let's be clear - the confederacy was a group of states who wanted to break apart the United States to ensure they had the right to own African Americans. These statues serve/d no purpose other than to intimidate African Americans and other minorities and to try to add legitimacy to the confederates reason for existence. There are statues to confederate soldiers and generals in more states than there were in the confederacy. They have sprouted up throughout history during Jim Crowe laws and afterwards.
Tragic that so many racist, poorly educated rural people support this blatant exercise in intimidation.
Even the German Nazis learned from their mistakes and razed the monuments to their former leaders,


You have no idea how inadvertently relevant that statement was to this thread!
 
2017-08-26 10:07:11 AM  

RJReves: Turbo Cojones: 

I had not heard of the Confederate Coal Statues.


Oops
 
2017-08-26 10:15:30 AM  

Turbo Cojones: RJReves: Turbo Cojones: 

I had not heard of the Confederate Coal Statues.

Oops


LOL. There are no wrong threads on Fark. Sometimes the connect is more tenuous than others, but we is all smart enuf to make one up if need be.
 
2017-08-26 10:40:17 AM  
The greatest deal ever made was recently made in coal, by the richest resident of West Virgina. Gov. Jim Justice sold his coal mine to the Russians for $600 million in 2009. He recently bought in back for $5 million dollars.
 
2017-08-26 11:00:13 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: As we move towards a more fully mechanized world, the displacement of workers will need to be addressed in some way. These are just the first fits and starts in that process.

Today we're looking at ways to hold on to those jobs, by hook or by crook (get it? Trump's a crook. LOL).

Tomorrow, we'll be paying displaced entire communities as their jobs are made obsolete.


the question of mechanization has been going on seriously for 50 years now. The moment transportation became cheap and easy factories started to consolidate world wide, shutting local mills and factories. That started in the 1960s and has been continuing since.

The moment robots entered the work force in large manufacturing, factory worker counts started going down. Huge manufacturing plants continue to reduce worker counts.

Next up for automation is vehicles. The moment you get an automated tractor trailer all the long haul truckers will be out of work. Truckers will be hired for the final mile of shipping: getting into and out of loading docks and confined spaces, but all the routine long haul distances will be robotic.

The displacement is already occurring, but I don't think it is a problem that the majority of people see as an issue to be resolved yet.
 
2017-08-26 11:02:20 AM  

kanesays: The greatest deal ever made was recently made in coal, by the richest resident of West Virgina. Gov. Jim Justice sold his coal mine to the Russians for $600 million in 2009. He recently bought in back for $5 million dollars.


Ooh, laundering dirty money with dirty coal.
 
2017-08-26 11:03:10 AM  

Nuc_E: Ringshadow: If you want to have fun, tell people who support coal that coal plants are so radioactive they can trip nuclear plant alarms. Beaver Valley Nuclear is right next to Bruce Mansfield Coal, and if the wind's just right it'll play hell with Beaver Valley's monitoring.

/happens all over the place
//Bruce Mansfield catches their fly ash and conveyor belts it next door to be turned into drywall
///so that's cool

I am curious as to where you heard that, given my familiarity with said plants and ability to look into the documentation of said occurrences.


To be fair: I was a contractor. I was told that by some of the house techs, but they could have been pulling my leg. Farking with contractors is a time honored tradition.
 
2017-08-26 11:59:09 AM  

Dinjiin: There are just under 100K coal mining jobs in the US.


img.fark.net

76K is A LOT less than "just under" 100K.
 
2017-08-26 12:04:16 PM  

rzrwiresunrise: Dinjiin: There are just under 100K coal mining jobs in the US.

[img.fark.net image 850x681]

76K is A LOT less than "just under" 100K.


Eh, there's quibbling about the number of coal jobs, and iirc 100k is the largest estimate.
 
2017-08-26 12:09:41 PM  

Summercat: rzrwiresunrise: Dinjiin: There are just under 100K coal mining jobs in the US.

[img.fark.net image 850x681]

76K is A LOT less than "just under" 100K.

Eh, there's quibbling about the number of coal jobs, and iirc 100k is the largest estimate.


Fair enough.
 
2017-08-26 12:38:04 PM  

Ringshadow: Nuc_E: Ringshadow: If you want to have fun, tell people who support coal that coal plants are so radioactive they can trip nuclear plant alarms. Beaver Valley Nuclear is right next to Bruce Mansfield Coal, and if the wind's just right it'll play hell with Beaver Valley's monitoring.

/happens all over the place
//Bruce Mansfield catches their fly ash and conveyor belts it next door to be turned into drywall
///so that's cool

I am curious as to where you heard that, given my familiarity with said plants and ability to look into the documentation of said occurrences.

To be fair: I was a contractor. I was told that by some of the house techs, but they could have been pulling my leg. Farking with contractors is a time honored tradition.


Have always had good experiences with contractor techs.

Not a fan of Chuck Jones courting Donald Trump.
 
2017-08-26 03:56:31 PM  

AverageAmericanGuy: As we move towards a more fully mechanized world, the displacement of workers will need to be addressed in some way. These are just the first fits and starts in that process.

Today we're looking at ways to hold on to those jobs, by hook or by crook (get it? Trump's a crook. LOL).

Tomorrow, we'll be paying displaced entire communities as their jobs are made obsolete.


I totally agree with you. Basically we will have to find another source for regular income.
 
2017-08-26 06:11:08 PM  

fusillade762: Pope tallies up the favors: allowing companies to dodge their pension and health care obligations to retirees

But remember this is all about the workers.


Thank GOD all those corrupt unions got busted up!

Corporations will police themselves, after all!
 
Displayed 43 of 43 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking

On Twitter





Top Commented
Javascript is required to view headlines in widget.
  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report