Do you have adblock enabled?
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(MSN)   His parents said he just needed to sleep. Then things got stupid. And tragic   ( msn.com) divider line
    More: Misc, police, Constable, Austin, Russell Reeves, hingham police, SWAT team, hingham police chief, Austin's parents  
•       •       •

17822 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Jul 2017 at 6:59 AM (13 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2017-07-17 01:52:37 AM  
159 votes:
Nevercall the cops if worried about someone's mental health.

Just don't.
2017-07-17 02:55:24 AM  
76 votes:

Shadow Blasko: Nevercall the cops if worried about someone's mental health.

Just don't.


As someone said in a thread about a similar story: if you have a problem and you call the cops now you have two problems.
2017-07-17 07:19:16 AM  
55 votes:
Wait. So as soon as the parents were shuffled off in a police van away from the house and are unable to witness, suddenly the kid chooses that moment to kill himself. Seems awfully convenient for the cops.
2017-07-17 07:32:11 AM  
52 votes:
FTA: "The reason police shoot someone is that they fear getting shot," Berkowitz said. "If they're wearing armor, or they're in an armored truck, they feel more secure, and they're less likely to shoot."

HAHAHAHAHAHA, no.

Lets fix that shall we?

FIXED:  "The reason police shoot someone is that they fear everything," Berkowitz said. "If they're wearing armor, or they're in an armored truck, they feel more empowered, and they're more likely to shoot to prove their manhood."

Now that statement is true.
2017-07-17 07:53:56 AM  
48 votes:
America's police system is broken. Many (if not most) cops have absolutely no idea how to deescalate a situation, and those that do often get reprimanded for talking people down instead of gunning down the "threat". And our legal system has repeatedly told police that if they even feel a twinge of 'fear', they're completely justified in killing someone, no matter how little of a threat was posed, or how cooperative the victim was.

The entire system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.
2017-07-17 12:38:05 AM  
48 votes:
That story is absolutely heartbreaking.
2017-07-17 07:24:17 AM  
45 votes:
"Don't back me into a corner," his father remembers Austin saying. "Because I'll make it go away in four seconds."
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.


So the meaning was clear... yet he calls the police.

In the hall upstairs, Austin's mother spoke to him through his locked bedroom door. "Whatever's happening," Kate Harrison says she called to her son, "I love you, and we can work it out."

Then immediately start pestering him.
I get the feeling they never actually leave him the fark alone
2017-07-17 07:24:36 AM  
41 votes:
All those cops, all that hardware on the scene, and the dog, a pitty mix no less, survives. That is a goddam miracle in this whole heartbreaking story.
2017-07-17 07:14:02 AM  
38 votes:

LowbrowDeluxe: That...seems like a disproportionate response regardless of the parents suggestion.


They've got all this high end military gear that they never get to use.   When the opportunity to suit up comes, they go full hog.
2017-07-17 02:52:50 AM  
36 votes:
That...seems like a disproportionate response regardless of the parents suggestion.
2017-07-17 07:07:20 AM  
33 votes:
Inb4 habitual coplickers enter to proclaim that these cops were in the right cause the dude could have, i don't know, had drugs or bombs or a nuke in his room sonewhere. Or could have been a liberal or something.
2017-07-17 07:49:44 AM  
29 votes:

lucksi: his name is my name too: lucksi: cman: lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more

Deutschland uber alles

Are you an expat living there, or are you native?

it's funny how you people know such things, yet elect a leader running on that platform

uh no... we people didn't, we people elected Hillary by 3 million more votes than the derp brigade.  The EC abdicated their duty and elected the demagogue which is outside of the people's control.

yeah, it's not like you have historical precedent that some peoples vote only count for 3 fifth...


Slaves werent allowed to vote and at no time were blacks vote only worth 3/5ths of a white mans vote

That 3/5ths rule was about population count towards representation. Blacks were only considered 3/5ths of a person because the south wanted them to be count as a full person so the south could have more representation in Congress (all of whom would have been white).
2017-07-17 07:48:59 AM  
29 votes:

Nidiot: cpubus: "Don't back me into a corner," his father remembers Austin saying. "Because I'll make it go away in four seconds."
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.

So the meaning was clear... yet he calls the police.

In the hall upstairs, Austin's mother spoke to him through his locked bedroom door. "Whatever's happening," Kate Harrison says she called to her son, "I love you, and we can work it out."

Then immediately start pestering him.
I get the feeling they never actually leave him the fark alone

Yeah. Thanks Mom and Dad, you sure handled that well. Of course you wont see how you contributed to the death of your own son there at all.


Yeah, when a loved one goes up to a room to be alone with a gun and is visibly distraught, everyone acts completely 100% rationally. Nobody could ever panic and make a one poor decision, which they will regret forever in hindsight.

/Way to kick some one when they're down.
//Glad at least that the cops didn't gun the dog down in front of the parents.
2017-07-17 07:40:06 AM  
27 votes:

his name is my name too: Nidiot: I read that whole piece trying to find the bit that justified why the police were even there in the first place.

There wasn't one.

one of them called for a wellness check.


A wellness check is suitable for someone who hasn't been seen alive for a while, not for someone who went to their room asking to be left alone.
2017-07-17 07:33:59 AM  
25 votes:

lucksi: cman: lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more

Deutschland uber alles

Are you an expat living there, or are you native?

it's funny how you people know such things, yet elect a leader running on that platform


uh no... we people didn't, we people elected Hillary by 3 million more votes than the derp brigade.  The EC abdicated their duty and elected the demagogue which is outside of the people's control.
2017-07-17 04:40:58 AM  
22 votes:
Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person
2017-07-17 07:33:13 AM  
20 votes:
I read that whole piece trying to find the bit that justified why the police were even there in the first place.

There wasn't one.
2017-07-17 02:48:53 AM  
19 votes:
I can't snark at this.
2017-07-17 07:38:45 AM  
18 votes:
Police safety is much like firearm safety; never point either at something you don't want to kill.
2017-07-17 06:45:20 AM  
18 votes:
Want someone dead? Call the cops to check on them.
Pig be all like " let's kill this mofo cause we can"
2017-07-17 07:48:05 AM  
17 votes:

doglover: cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person

Or ever, really.

The only reason you should call the police is to kill negros. That's not what police are supposed to be, just what they've become. If you need negros murdered, call the police. If you need ANYTHING else, call someone else.

Also if you are black , or even have a heavy tan, and the police show up... GET THE HELL OUTTA THERE!


They just shot an unarmed blonde white Australian woman in Minneapolis, after she called them for help http://www.startribune.com/woman-killed-in-officer-involved-shoo​ting-i​n-south-minneapolis/434782213/#1 so you have to update that advice. Skin tone is now irrelevant.

Don't call the police unless you want someone shot.
2017-07-17 07:50:18 AM  
16 votes:
You have the right to bear arms, unless you're at home in your bedroom with a dog.
2017-07-17 09:13:03 AM  
15 votes:

tukatz: casual disregard: What is the primary purpose of police? Beyond paperwork and investigations, it's not protecting the public. No, the primary purpose of the police is to neutralize threats. Insofar as the police are concerned, and the people who voted in a police force with that modus operandi, it can only be seen as mission accomplished.

If you own guns the police will kill you if they perceive you as a threat. If you are having a mental breakdown the police will kill you if they perceive you as a threat. If you are nonwhite the police will kill you if they perceive you as a threat (if you won't listen to me, at least give Chris Rock a chance, might just save your life). Heck sometimes they even shoot white people, but they try to keep it out of the news (offer may not be valid in Zimbabwe).

How "duh" can we get on this? How many more times do we have to see a police killing before we simply accept it not only as reality but as the political will of the democratic republican populace? I'd bet a dollar at the casino that this victim's parents voted for the very politicians that enabled this sort of environment to emerge. But not more than a dollar. I dislike games of chance even when rigged in my favor.

It's all about perception.

You're right.  It IS all about perception.  Like yours is apparently warped by your personal hatred of law enforcement.   Not everyone feels that way.  In fact, many people see the ever growing violence and crime and are afraid.  They also know that the police have a more violent and rebellious society to deal with.  And that they aren't paid to die over someone's inability to follow commands or lack of control.


What "ever growing violence and crime"?
2017-07-17 07:25:39 AM  
15 votes:
cman:
If someone was trying to break into my place, I'm gonna call the cops. They do have their uses even tho many of them can be assholes.

Even that isn't safe, apparently.
2017-07-17 07:08:46 AM  
15 votes:
i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more
2017-07-17 10:19:31 AM  
14 votes:
Yeah, sometimes it's the family that do really stupid things that leave you wondering just WTF they were thinking.  I'm torn on whether or not the family in TFA played a role in what I see as a completely avoidable and pointless tragedy.

Last year, my Rescue Unit was dispatched on a teenager who, the parents reported, was alone in the house and having a severe anxiety attack*.No need for PD backup.  My partner and  I responded to find a distraught 16-year old sitting on the couch with a blanket on his lap. Absolutely we were in the mindset that this was a medical call, and nothing more. We see it all the time.

Did the parents mention that he had a history of suicide attempts?  That he wasn't actually having an anxiety attack, but had called them to say he wanted to kill himself?  THAT THERE WAS A LOADED, UNSECURED FIREARM IN THE HOUSE?  Which he told his parents he was in possession of?  No, they did not**.  And considering Utah has a reputation for NOT shooting first and asking questions later, I don't think their omission of these very important facts had anything to do with fear for their child's safety from over-enthusiastic cops.  Might just have had something to do with the fact that there was a meth lab in their shed.

What the parents DID do was that they reported it was an anxiety attack, stated it was an ongoing problem with him, and which (at least here) is treated as a medical problem, not a police one.  So off we went expecting to administer the appropriate medication and transport him for observation in the ER.  No need for PD backup.

Within five minutes of our arrival, where we found an obviously distraught teenaged male sitting on the couch with a blanket in his lap, he pulled out a loaded 9mm, put it to his head, and pulled the trigger.  My partner, who is damned lucky to be alive, was less than five feet away from him at the time, although he later needed medical care to remove a chunk of the kid's skull from his face.  When I heard that gunshot and saw him bleeding, my first impression was that he had been shot.

I suppose my point is that when you DO call 911, please be honest about the situation. If there really is an armed, suicidal person on scene, for the love of god, tell the dispatcher.  I'm not being an insensitive dick when I say that I'd rather see the cops go overboard and take down an armed person than risk one of my medics' lives.

*Yes, an actual anxiety attack is a medical emergency; the phsyiological response to severe anxiety can be very dangerous, with symptoms that include highly elevated heart rate and blood pressure, severe emotional and psychological stress (many patients describe the feeling as a combination of being scared out of their minds and experiencing a "sense of impending doom", both of which they have no control over) and, of course, suicidal ideation if it's a chronic, untreated issue.

**Oh, and for added assholishiness, the parents successfully sued the city, the county, the Fire Department, the dispatcher and me and my partner for negligence in not somehow preventing the death of their kid.  Americans are notoriously litigious, and seemingly incapable of taking personal responsibility for the self-inflicted stupidity in their lives.

[end slightly tangential not-so-CSB]
2017-07-17 07:37:18 AM  
13 votes:
Guys, the cops do not back down. If they've had to come all the way out there, you're leaving in cuffs or a bag.
2017-07-17 09:30:03 AM  
12 votes:
If you give them toys, they'll want to play with them.

img.fark.net
2017-07-17 07:58:00 AM  
12 votes:
The regional SWAT team boasts trained negotiators and military-style equipment including a bulletproof BearCat armored truck.

Oh, I wish those parents didn't call the police.  Suburban cops with access to unnecessary over-the-top military equipment is practically a guaranteed death sentence.  Parents had to learn the hard way that cops are not there to help and should only be called as a last result.

Anyone read Twilight Eyes by Dean Koontz?  This scene reminds me of how the goblins in human skin would all show up and gather in numbers to witness when death was about to happen.  All those cops showing up to see the show remind me of that.

/That was a very sad read
//I'm sure the cops are patting themselves on the back for 'resolving' the situation
///can't believe they didn't murder the dog, too
2017-07-17 07:50:01 AM  
12 votes:

Nidiot: Skin tone is now irrelevant.


Well fark.

They can't even not shoot blonde chicks!?!?!

I take it back. ONLY CALL THE POLICE IN AMERICA IF YOU WANT TO DIE. THEY WILL F*CK AND OR KILL YOU.

911? More like 187.
2017-07-17 07:39:58 AM  
12 votes:
I dunno. I had a former boss who was going through a tough time with a dying father,a stolen bike, and a nasty break-up who ended up having one of these wellness checks initiated on him. The police came out, spoke with him, and did seize his guns for his own "protection".

Now he was rather embarrassed about the whole situation. Both with how his neighbors now perceived the guy who had all those cop cars show up at his house, let alone how he might be perceived at work.

But you know what? The whole thing went down without incident. He wasnt raised as a spoiled brat who always got his way through threats of self-harm.
2017-07-17 08:56:26 AM  
11 votes:

TOSViolation: cpubus: "Don't back me into a corner," his father remembers Austin saying. "Because I'll make it go away in four seconds."
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.

So the meaning was clear... yet he calls the police.

In the hall upstairs, Austin's mother spoke to him through his locked bedroom door. "Whatever's happening," Kate Harrison says she called to her son, "I love you, and we can work it out."

Then immediately start pestering him.
I get the feeling they never actually leave him the fark alone

The parents basically murdered him.  He told them to just leave him the fark alone, so the farkwads call the police.  His parents DESERVE to live the rest of their lives with guilt and pain over his death that they caused.


you, sir, are an idiot. A heartless idiot. It was the girlfriend who called the suicide hotline. They called the police. The mom went up to tell the boy she loved him. Does any of that sound like the parents MURDERED the son and DESERVE to blah blah blah.?
Idiot.
2017-07-17 07:56:20 AM  
11 votes:

Wyalt Derp: You have the right to bear arms, unless you're at home in your bedroom with a dog.


Or black and cooperating with the police.
2017-07-17 07:37:27 AM  
11 votes:

cpubus: "Don't back me into a corner," his father remembers Austin saying. "Because I'll make it go away in four seconds."
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.

So the meaning was clear... yet he calls the police.

In the hall upstairs, Austin's mother spoke to him through his locked bedroom door. "Whatever's happening," Kate Harrison says she called to her son, "I love you, and we can work it out."

Then immediately start pestering him.
I get the feeling they never actually leave him the fark alone


Yeah. Thanks Mom and Dad, you sure handled that well. Of course you wont see how you contributed to the death of your own son there at all.
2017-07-17 07:29:21 AM  
11 votes:

cman: lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more

Deutschland uber alles

Are you an expat living there, or are you native?


it's funny how you people know such things, yet elect a leader running on that platform
2017-07-17 04:21:38 AM  
11 votes:
Cops be all like, "mental health emergency? Break out the heavy weapons!"

Blues Brothers - Hut Hut Hut SWAT-scenes
Youtube Atks5rRqQkg


"Situation resolved."

/Bastards
2017-07-17 09:21:12 AM  
10 votes:

tukatz: You're right.  It IS all about perception.  Like yours is apparently warped by your personal hatred of law enforcement.   Not everyone feels that way.  In fact, many people see the ever growing violence and crime and are afraid.  They also know that the police have a more violent and rebellious society to deal with.  And that they aren't paid to die over someone's inability to follow commands or lack of control.


Yet, statistically, we're in one of the safest, lowest-crime periods in American history. But do go on about the Boogeyman they keep harping on about on Fox News.
2017-07-17 08:45:48 AM  
10 votes:

Ker_Thwap: Schmerd1948: Ker_Thwap: My first thought would be to call a suicide prevention hotline, unless of course I suspected that my child with the gun was likely to take out a few other people including myself, neighbors, ex girlfriends, etc.; at which point the responsible thing would be to call the police.

  So, the parents are fearful for their own lives, and the police aren't allowed to be fearful for their own lives and take precautions like wearing body armor?  The parents just expected a Hollywood ending where a kindly old police officer takes off the vest, risks his/her own life and smoothly says the perfect words, that perfectly penetrate the angst of the would be suicide.

The guy shot himself, there's very little the police could have done to prevent that.  No one else got shot, that's a positive outcome.

They armored vehicle was a nice touch. And the multiple town-forces.
You really don't think they over-reacted?

My then wife passed out and thumped to the floor one night.  I called 911.  Within 10 minutes there were 30 local volunteer firemen cluttering up my house, clogging the parking spaces, so that by the time the ambulance arrived, it had no where to park.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯   Responders get bored.  At worst, it was a giant waste of funding.

So, yes.  You're right, it does seem to be an over-reaction.  Better than an under-reaction, where innocents got killed as well.  Did the over-reaction directly lead to the suicide? Dubious.  There was a massive life long chain of events that led to the suicide.  It's a complex issue, and it's a bit insensitive to pretend it's a single issue concern that can be solved with a snap of the fingers and a few magic words in every case.


Here's a thought, maybe if everyone had just left the poor young man alone, like he asked, to spend a bit of time upstairs in his room, with only his dog for company, he might have had a chance to have a bit of a think, perhaps take a nap, and then he may just have come back downstairs feeling better and ready to get on with life. Sheesh.
2017-07-17 08:16:25 AM  
10 votes:
It says his ex-girlfriend called the cops for a welfare check, not his parents.
2017-07-17 09:38:32 AM  
9 votes:

Nidiot: doglover: cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person

Or ever, really.

The only reason you should call the police is to kill negros. That's not what police are supposed to be, just what they've become. If you need negros murdered, call the police. If you need ANYTHING else, call someone else.

Also if you are black , or even have a heavy tan, and the police show up... GET THE HELL OUTTA THERE!

They just shot an unarmed blonde white Australian woman in Minneapolis, after she called them for help http://www.startribune.com/woman-killed-in-officer-involved-shoot​ing-in-south-minneapolis/434782213/#1 so you have to update that advice. Skin tone is now irrelevant.

Don't call the police unless you want someone shot.


"Damond, in her pajamas, went to the driver's side door and was talking to the driver. The officer in the passenger seat pulled his gun and shot Damond through the driver's side door, sources said."

img.fark.net
2017-07-17 07:12:53 AM  
9 votes:

cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person


Fixed.
2017-07-17 11:54:43 AM  
8 votes:

Lusiphur: docpeteyJ: Yeah, sometimes it's the family that do really stupid things that leave you wondering just WTF they were thinking.  I'm torn on whether or not the family in TFA played a role in what I see as a completely avoidable and pointless tragedy.

Last year, my Rescue Unit was dispatched on a teenager who, the parents reported, was alone in the house and having a severe anxiety attack*.No need for PD backup.  My partner and  I responded to find a distraught 16-year old sitting on the couch with a blanket on his lap. Absolutely we were in the mindset that this was a medical call, and nothing more. We see it all the time.

Did the parents mention that he had a history of suicide attempts?  That he wasn't actually having an anxiety attack, but had called them to say he wanted to kill himself?  THAT THERE WAS A LOADED, UNSECURED FIREARM IN THE HOUSE?  Which he told his parents he was in possession of?  No, they did not**.  And considering Utah has a reputation for NOT shooting first and asking questions later, I don't think their omission of these very important facts had anything to do with fear for their child's safety from over-enthusiastic cops.  Might just have had something to do with the fact that there was a meth lab in their shed.

What the parents DID do was that they reported it was an anxiety attack, stated it was an ongoing problem with him, and which (at least here) is treated as a medical problem, not a police one.  So off we went expecting to administer the appropriate medication and transport him for observation in the ER.  No need for PD backup.

Within five minutes of our arrival, where we found an obviously distraught teenaged male sitting on the couch with a blanket in his lap, he pulled out a loaded 9mm, put it to his head, and pulled the trigger.  My partner, who is damned lucky to be alive, was less than five feet away from him at the time, although he later needed medical care to remove a chunk of the kid's skull from his face.  When I heard t ...


You really just typed that out and put it on the internet for people to see.

Look there is a whole host of ways to say that you are unhappy with the way first responders like police deal with problems, but categorically the statement:

No offense, and I'm sure you and your team are wonderful people, but I would rather see a hundred first responders shot than one innocent victim just having a tough time.

Tumblr is leaking and that septic, naive, self-medicating/diagnosing bullshiat is societally toxic.  You are a callous bigot if you think its ok to treat first-responders like meat on a 100-1 harm scenario.
Police need to follow better force-escalation guidelines but there is no need to be so cavalier with other First Responders.

Your mentality is what reinforces the believe that civilians are the enemy, because your assertion is disgusting and turned my stomach.  Please take a moment and re-evaluate that line and realize how inhumane it is.
2017-07-17 09:45:57 AM  
8 votes:

orangehat: lucksi: his name is my name too: lucksi: cman: lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more

Deutschland uber alles

Are you an expat living there, or are you native?

it's funny how you people know such things, yet elect a leader running on that platform

uh no... we people didn't, we people elected Hillary by 3 million more votes than the derp brigade.  The EC abdicated their duty and elected the demagogue which is outside of the people's control.

yeah, it's not like you have historical precedent that some peoples vote only count for 3 fifth...

 And it's not like your country has a precedent for counting the voting populous as negative 6 million.


Let me guess: you're one of those banal American sh*t-heels who meets Europeans and says "Do you speak German? No? You're welcome." as if you personally stormed the beach at Normandy.

Stop trying to distract from America's enormous current shame by reflexively babbling half-remembered history from 75 years ago. In your own way, you people are every bit as embarrassing as Trump.
2017-07-17 08:57:27 AM  
8 votes:

Ostman: Nidiot: cpubus: "Don't back me into a corner," his father remembers Austin saying. "Because I'll make it go away in four seconds."
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.

So the meaning was clear... yet he calls the police.

In the hall upstairs, Austin's mother spoke to him through his locked bedroom door. "Whatever's happening," Kate Harrison says she called to her son, "I love you, and we can work it out."

Then immediately start pestering him.
I get the feeling they never actually leave him the fark alone

Yeah. Thanks Mom and Dad, you sure handled that well. Of course you wont see how you contributed to the death of your own son there at all.

Yeah, when a loved one goes up to a room to be alone with a gun and is visibly distraught, everyone acts completely 100% rationally. Nobody could ever panic and make a one poor decision, which they will regret forever in hindsight.

/Way to kick some one when they're down.
//Glad at least that the cops didn't gun the dog down in front of the parents.


It's fun to blame the guy and his parents and not the police, who decided to pretend to be Rambo for no good reason.
2017-07-17 08:42:51 AM  
8 votes:
Your kid has mental problems, snaps without warning, indicates he's going to kill himself.... so you call the police?  Why?  What magic do you want them to perform to cure him?  They're going to be more concerned that a mentally ill guy has a gun and will turn it on others.  And why does someone diagnosed with mental illness own a gun?  Dad didn't seem to have a problem with that.

You want to help him?  Then do something yourself.  Why would you call to say your kid is acting dangerously, then say everything to deny it when the police get there?  Get him some help from medical professionals.  Don't try to pawn it off on others, then biatch when it doesn't go the way you wanted.

It's almost like some people need the drama.  They won't do anything themselves, but like to throw the blame around when things go badly.   The kid would have probably shot himself anyways.... but now they can claim it someone else's fault.  That way they can continue to be delusional about how great their son was and how he was so safe to be around.

Ridiculous.  If so many people hate the police, why do they continue to call them with nonsense?  Try taking care of your own issues.
2017-07-17 08:12:19 AM  
8 votes:

doglover: cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person

Or ever, really.

The only reason you should call the police is to kill negros. That's not what police are supposed to be, just what they've become. If you need negros murdered, call the police. If you need ANYTHING else, call someone else.

Also if you are black , or even have a heavy tan, and the police show up... GET THE HELL OUTTA THERE!


Or if you're a hot, Australian, white female yoga instructor calling to report a possible assault...

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/07/minnesota-cops-fatally-shoot-yoga-tea​c​her-who-called-911-to-report-assault/
2017-07-17 08:01:31 AM  
8 votes:
My first thought would be to call a suicide prevention hotline, unless of course I suspected that my child with the gun was likely to take out a few other people including myself, neighbors, ex girlfriends, etc.; at which point the responsible thing would be to call the police.

  So, the parents are fearful for their own lives, and the police aren't allowed to be fearful for their own lives and take precautions like wearing body armor?  The parents just expected a Hollywood ending where a kindly old police officer takes off the vest, risks his/her own life and smoothly says the perfect words, that perfectly penetrate the angst of the would be suicide.

The guy shot himself, there's very little the police could have done to prevent that.  No one else got shot, that's a positive outcome.
2017-07-17 07:26:16 AM  
8 votes:

Shadow Blasko: Nevercall the cops if worried about someone's mental health.

Just don't.


Only call the cops if you need someone killed and you can't do it yourself.
2017-07-17 10:35:46 AM  
7 votes:

pedrop357: his name is my name too: lucksi: cman: lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more

Deutschland uber alles

Are you an expat living there, or are you native?

it's funny how you people know such things, yet elect a leader running on that platform

uh no... we people didn't, we people elected Hillary by 3 million more votes than the derp brigade.  The EC abdicated their duty and elected the demagogue which is outside of the people's control.

What duty did they abdicate?


Preventing an unqualified person from assuming the office? That's pretty big on their To-Do list.
2017-07-17 09:07:07 AM  
7 votes:

Schmerd1948: you, sir, are an idiot. A heartless idiot. It was the girlfriend who called the suicide hotline. They called the police. The mom went up to tell the boy she loved him. Does any of that sound like the parents MURDERED the son and DESERVE to blah blah blah.?
Idiot.


Read it again.  The FATHER called the police to come help.

"To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help."

The kid had asked multiple times for them to just leave him the fark alone, but the dumbasses couldn't get that through their thick skulls.
2017-07-17 08:56:13 AM  
7 votes:

tukatz: casual disregard: What is the primary purpose of police? Beyond paperwork and investigations, it's not protecting the public. No, the primary purpose of the police is to neutralize threats. Insofar as the police are concerned, and the people who voted in a police force with that modus operandi, it can only be seen as mission accomplished.

If you own guns the police will kill you if they perceive you as a threat. If you are having a mental breakdown the police will kill you if they perceive you as a threat. If you are nonwhite the police will kill you if they perceive you as a threat (if you won't listen to me, at least give Chris Rock a chance, might just save your life). Heck sometimes they even shoot white people, but they try to keep it out of the news (offer may not be valid in Zimbabwe).

How "duh" can we get on this? How many more times do we have to see a police killing before we simply accept it not only as reality but as the political will of the democratic republican populace? I'd bet a dollar at the casino that this victim's parents voted for the very politicians that enabled this sort of environment to emerge. But not more than a dollar. I dislike games of chance even when rigged in my favor.

It's all about perception.

You're right.  It IS all about perception.  Like yours is apparently warped by your personal hatred of law enforcement.   Not everyone feels that way.  In fact, many people see the ever growing violence and crime and are afraid.  They also know that the police have a more violent and rebellious society to deal with.  And that they aren't paid to die over someone's inability to follow commands or lack of control.


So what did this unarmed woman in her pj's do while talking to the police she called for, that could be described as an inability to follow commands or lack of control? http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/shooting-death-of​-justine-d​amond-in-minneapolis-sparks-calls-for-federal-investigation/news-story​/2d2486888c0c6d8fa1ca3d8f4bc7df91
2017-07-17 08:17:00 AM  
7 votes:

Ker_Thwap: My first thought would be to call a suicide prevention hotline, unless of course I suspected that my child with the gun was likely to take out a few other people including myself, neighbors, ex girlfriends, etc.; at which point the responsible thing would be to call the police.

  So, the parents are fearful for their own lives, and the police aren't allowed to be fearful for their own lives and take precautions like wearing body armor?  The parents just expected a Hollywood ending where a kindly old police officer takes off the vest, risks his/her own life and smoothly says the perfect words, that perfectly penetrate the angst of the would be suicide.

The guy shot himself, there's very little the police could have done to prevent that.  No one else got shot, that's a positive outcome.


They armored vehicle was a nice touch. And the multiple town-forces.
You really don't think they over-reacted?
2017-07-17 08:01:49 AM  
7 votes:
What is the primary purpose of police? Beyond paperwork and investigations, it's not protecting the public. No, the primary purpose of the police is to neutralize threats. Insofar as the police are concerned, and the people who voted in a police force with that modus operandi, it can only be seen as mission accomplished.

If you own guns the police will kill you if they perceive you as a threat. If you are having a mental breakdown the police will kill you if they perceive you as a threat. If you are nonwhite the police will kill you if they perceive you as a threat (if you won't listen to me, at least give Chris Rock a chance, might just save your life). Heck sometimes they even shoot white people, but they try to keep it out of the news (offer may not be valid in Zimbabwe).

How "duh" can we get on this? How many more times do we have to see a police killing before we simply accept it not only as reality but as the political will of the democratic republican populace? I'd bet a dollar at the casino that this victim's parents voted for the very politicians that enabled this sort of environment to emerge. But not more than a dollar. I dislike games of chance even when rigged in my favor.

It's all about perception.
2017-07-17 07:17:32 AM  
7 votes:

Shadow Blasko: Nevercall the cops if worried about someone's mental health.

Just don't.


Yeah, wait until they go all murder-suicide.
2017-07-17 12:04:48 PM  
6 votes:

Lusiphur: No offense, and I'm sure you and your team are wonderful people, but I would rather see a hundred first responders shot than one innocent victim just having a tough time. First responders know their lives are in danger every time they come in to work. That's part of the job description.


No, it's not, at least where EMS personnel are involved.  While we do, indeed, risk our lives in order to save others, it's not a requirement that we sacrifice our safety in clearly dangerous situations.  A dead medic does no one any good. I consider sending in unarmed and unprotected medics into a house with an armed, suicidal person as stupid and irresponsible as asking them to run into a burning house with no protective gear.  I want them safe so they can continue to go about their jobs of saving people.

Three people who work as emergency EMTs, firefighters, and police officers should expect that every call they go on might be their last, and be ok with that. On the other hand, NO ONE should feel like they are putting their lives (or the lives of loved ones) at risk just by calling for help.

Very true.  Every time a call goes as stupidly bad as it did in TFA, it compromises the trust the public has in First Responders (be them cops or medics) to keep them safe.

The line at which any first responder should be allowed to prioritize their lives over the lives of any other person needs to be a bright line somewhere just on the other side of "this person has taken clear and unambiguous actions to actively try to kill myself or others." And even then, it should be a difficult choice

Did you miss the part where I explained that the parents of the victim LIED TO US about the circumstances? We went in having NO idea the patient was suicidal and armed.  If we had known, the protocol is to have PD stage nearby why a specially-trained hostage negotiator/psychologist attempts to "talk down" the patient.

Everyone wants a peaceful resolution.  But in the real world where I live, sometimes that doesn't happen, no matter how hard we try.  Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
2017-07-17 09:06:29 AM  
6 votes:

Ker_Thwap: Schmerd1948: Ker_Thwap: My first thought would be to call a suicide prevention hotline, unless of course I suspected that my child with the gun was likely to take out a few other people including myself, neighbors, ex girlfriends, etc.; at which point the responsible thing would be to call the police.

  So, the parents are fearful for their own lives, and the police aren't allowed to be fearful for their own lives and take precautions like wearing body armor?  The parents just expected a Hollywood ending where a kindly old police officer takes off the vest, risks his/her own life and smoothly says the perfect words, that perfectly penetrate the angst of the would be suicide.

The guy shot himself, there's very little the police could have done to prevent that.  No one else got shot, that's a positive outcome.

They armored vehicle was a nice touch. And the multiple town-forces.
You really don't think they over-reacted?

My then wife passed out and thumped to the floor one night.  I called 911.  Within 10 minutes there were 30 local volunteer firemen cluttering up my house, clogging the parking spaces, so that by the time the ambulance arrived, it had no where to park.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯   Responders get bored.  At worst, it was a giant waste of funding.

So, yes.  You're right, it does seem to be an over-reaction.  Better than an under-reaction, where innocents got killed as well.  Did the over-reaction directly lead to the suicide? Dubious.  There was a massive life long chain of events that led to the suicide.  It's a complex issue, and it's a bit insensitive to pretend it's a single issue concern that can be solved with a snap of the fingers and a few magic words in every case.


Seriously, you don't think that being surrounded by an army has any effect on this guy pulling the trigger?  That is shockingly naive.
2017-07-17 09:03:28 AM  
6 votes:

mgshamster: It says his ex-girlfriend called the cops for a welfare check, not his parents.


Everyone keeps forgetting this.

Most guys think differently than most gals do.

In general, guys don't want to talk about it - they want to mope some and get on with life. Talking about it and "being friends" is basically rebooting that process constantly.

Unless you can cheer on an ex when they tell you that you've found someone new and the same is true in the other direction, the whole "let's keep in touch" or "let's be friends" is simply not a good idea. A general head nod of acknowledgement in public is good enough.
2017-07-17 08:46:03 AM  
6 votes:

Jesus McSordid: cman:
If someone was trying to break into my place, I'm gonna call the cops. They do have their uses even tho many of them can be assholes.

Even that isn't safe, apparently.


The only time I can see myself calling the police is if I need a police report for insurance purposes.
2017-07-17 08:37:42 AM  
6 votes:
The cops are not your friend. They are an occasional necessary evil and their unthinking, thuggish, militarism has made it so that when they aren't necessary, they are still pretty evil.
2017-07-17 08:34:09 AM  
6 votes:

Schmerd1948: Ker_Thwap: My first thought would be to call a suicide prevention hotline, unless of course I suspected that my child with the gun was likely to take out a few other people including myself, neighbors, ex girlfriends, etc.; at which point the responsible thing would be to call the police.

  So, the parents are fearful for their own lives, and the police aren't allowed to be fearful for their own lives and take precautions like wearing body armor?  The parents just expected a Hollywood ending where a kindly old police officer takes off the vest, risks his/her own life and smoothly says the perfect words, that perfectly penetrate the angst of the would be suicide.

The guy shot himself, there's very little the police could have done to prevent that.  No one else got shot, that's a positive outcome.

They armored vehicle was a nice touch. And the multiple town-forces.
You really don't think they over-reacted?


My then wife passed out and thumped to the floor one night.  I called 911.  Within 10 minutes there were 30 local volunteer firemen cluttering up my house, clogging the parking spaces, so that by the time the ambulance arrived, it had no where to park.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯   Responders get bored.  At worst, it was a giant waste of funding.

So, yes.  You're right, it does seem to be an over-reaction.  Better than an under-reaction, where innocents got killed as well.  Did the over-reaction directly lead to the suicide? Dubious.  There was a massive life long chain of events that led to the suicide.  It's a complex issue, and it's a bit insensitive to pretend it's a single issue concern that can be solved with a snap of the fingers and a few magic words in every case.
2017-07-17 07:30:26 AM  
6 votes:

Jesus McSordid: cman:
If someone was trying to break into my place, I'm gonna call the cops. They do have their uses even tho many of them can be assholes.

Even that isn't safe, apparently.


Why on earth is that story not on fark's main page yet?
2017-07-17 07:20:23 AM  
6 votes:

Shadow Blasko: Never call the cops if worried about someone's mental health.

Just don't.


Can't smart this enough.
2017-07-17 10:49:34 AM  
5 votes:

bisi: There is containing the person while trying  to strategically de-escalate the situation and disarm him.
And then there is going full SWAT, putting them in a corner until the pressure leads to a quick and permanent solution.


What's really sad is that people who are feeling a bit suicidal and see stories like this may choose not to talk to anyone about it so they won't get some help before they reach the point of no return.
2017-07-17 10:29:31 AM  
5 votes:

TOSViolation: cpubus: "Don't back me into a corner," his father remembers Austin saying. "Because I'll make it go away in four seconds."
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.

So the meaning was clear... yet he calls the police.

In the hall upstairs, Austin's mother spoke to him through his locked bedroom door. "Whatever's happening," Kate Harrison says she called to her son, "I love you, and we can work it out."

Then immediately start pestering him.
I get the feeling they never actually leave him the fark alone

The parents basically murdered him.  He told them to just leave him the fark alone, so the farkwads call the police.  His parents DESERVE to live the rest of their lives with guilt and pain over his death that they caused.


This is such a massively f*cked up thing to say.
2017-07-17 10:28:42 AM  
5 votes:

docpeteyJ: I suppose my point is that when you DO call 911, please be honest about the situation. If there really is an armed, suicidal person on scene, for the love of god, tell the dispatcher.


DO NOT DO THAT.  You WILL get someone killed if you do that.

I'm not being an insensitive dick when I say that I'd rather see the cops go overboard and take down an armed person than risk one of my medics' lives.

Yes, you are being an insensitive dick.  Look, that's a sucky situation.  But the cops are NOT going to handle it any better than you are, they're going to be MUCH worse at it in virtually all of the US.  Maybe where you are, they aren't that bad.  But until this gets fixed, if you are calling for help for a suicidal person:

DO NOT TELL 911 THAT THERE IS A GUN INVOLVED.

IF THEY ASK, TELL THEM NO IF YOU WANT SOMEONE YOU CARE ABOUT TO LIVE.
2017-07-17 09:36:02 AM  
5 votes:

Another Government Employee: But the police's response was gasoline on a fire. The problem with how most SWAT situations are handle, is the super show of force. It's using a sledgehammer when you need a fly swatter.


Remember when SWAT ("Special Weapons and Tactics") were called in only in situations where typical police tactics weren't enough, like with heavily armed & armored criminals or active terror situations? Yeah. Now, most of what they do is provide "shock and awe" breaches for search warrants, because, hey, why give them all those toys if they can't use 'em, right?

You wanted a security blanket of force, to save you from the scary people. Problem is, your idea of "scary people" went from "domestic terrorist cells" to "pot users", from "heavily armed bank robbers" to "non-white people," and SWAT became the standard instead of the outlier. So, SWAT teams do house breaches on grandmothers now, and you feel comforted because the "War on Drugs" now has foot soldiers.
2017-07-17 08:35:53 AM  
5 votes:

cpubus: "Don't back me into a corner," his father remembers Austin saying. "Because I'll make it go away in four seconds."
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.

So the meaning was clear... yet he calls the police.

In the hall upstairs, Austin's mother spoke to him through his locked bedroom door. "Whatever's happening," Kate Harrison says she called to her son, "I love you, and we can work it out."

Then immediately start pestering him.
I get the feeling they never actually leave him the fark alone


The parents basically murdered him.  He told them to just leave him the fark alone, so the farkwads call the police.  His parents DESERVE to live the rest of their lives with guilt and pain over his death that they caused.
2017-07-17 08:32:59 AM  
5 votes:

cman: Keyser_Soze_Death: cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person

Fixed.

If someone was trying to break into my place, I'm gonna call the cops. They do have their uses even tho many of them can be assholes.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/07/17/bride-t​o​-be-called-911-for-help-and-was-fatally-shot-by-a-minneapolis-police-o​fficer/
2017-07-17 08:16:45 AM  
5 votes:

lucksi: his name is my name too: lucksi: cman: lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more

Deutschland uber alles

Are you an expat living there, or are you native?

it's funny how you people know such things, yet elect a leader running on that platform

uh no... we people didn't, we people elected Hillary by 3 million more votes than the derp brigade.  The EC abdicated their duty and elected the demagogue which is outside of the people's control.

yeah, it's not like you have historical precedent that some peoples vote only count for 3 fifth...


 And it's not like your country has a precedent for counting the voting populous as negative 6 million.
2017-07-17 07:53:57 AM  
5 votes:

cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person


The problem is, if you call the suicide hotline, they will call the cops.
Happened to friends of mine when their daughter called.
It didn't end like this thankfully.
2017-07-17 07:20:51 AM  
5 votes:

Keyser_Soze_Death: cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person

Fixed.


If someone was trying to break into my place, I'm gonna call the cops. They do have their uses even tho many of them can be assholes.
2017-07-17 12:11:27 PM  
4 votes:

Cthulhu Theory: LordJiro: America's police system is broken. Many (if not most) cops have absolutely no idea how to deescalate a situation, and those that do often get reprimanded for talking people down instead of gunning down the "threat". And our legal system has repeatedly told police that if they even feel a twinge of 'fear', they're completely justified in killing someone, no matter how little of a threat was posed, or how cooperative the victim was.

The entire system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

Not calling you a liar, but I would like a citation for this one.

And it's not just the legal system training them to react lethally to threats, it's their training and their protocols.

But that's not really relevant here since it was the kid that shot himself, not the police.

I suppose if you want to argue the amount of force they brought was symptomatic of this, I won't argue that, but let's respect the fact that all signs at this point lead to a suicidal kid living up to the threat he gave his parents if they wouldn't leave him alone and backed him into a corner. They did exactly what he asked them not to when the mom showed up at his door and then by calling the police. This is a failure of parenting as well as police overreaction. SWAT and Armored vehicles all because you couldn't give your emotionally distraught kid a little breathing room. Totally worth it.


There was an article on here a couple months ago where a cop talked a guy down, and was reprimanded for not shooting the guy.
2017-07-17 11:45:13 AM  
4 votes:

docpeteyJ: Yeah, sometimes it's the family that do really stupid things that leave you wondering just WTF they were thinking.  I'm torn on whether or not the family in TFA played a role in what I see as a completely avoidable and pointless tragedy.

Last year, my Rescue Unit was dispatched on a teenager who, the parents reported, was alone in the house and having a severe anxiety attack*.No need for PD backup.  My partner and  I responded to find a distraught 16-year old sitting on the couch with a blanket on his lap. Absolutely we were in the mindset that this was a medical call, and nothing more. We see it all the time.

Did the parents mention that he had a history of suicide attempts?  That he wasn't actually having an anxiety attack, but had called them to say he wanted to kill himself?  THAT THERE WAS A LOADED, UNSECURED FIREARM IN THE HOUSE?  Which he told his parents he was in possession of?  No, they did not**.  And considering Utah has a reputation for NOT shooting first and asking questions later, I don't think their omission of these very important facts had anything to do with fear for their child's safety from over-enthusiastic cops.  Might just have had something to do with the fact that there was a meth lab in their shed.

What the parents DID do was that they reported it was an anxiety attack, stated it was an ongoing problem with him, and which (at least here) is treated as a medical problem, not a police one.  So off we went expecting to administer the appropriate medication and transport him for observation in the ER.  No need for PD backup.

Within five minutes of our arrival, where we found an obviously distraught teenaged male sitting on the couch with a blanket in his lap, he pulled out a loaded 9mm, put it to his head, and pulled the trigger.  My partner, who is damned lucky to be alive, was less than five feet away from him at the time, although he later needed medical care to remove a chunk of the kid's skull from his face.  When I heard that gunshot and saw him bleeding, my first impression was that he had been shot.

I suppose my point is that when you DO call 911, please be honest about the situation. If there really is an armed, suicidal person on scene, for the love of god, tell the dispatcher.  I'm not being an insensitive dick when I say that I'd rather see the cops go overboard and take down an armed person than risk one of my medics' lives.

*Yes, an actual anxiety attack is a medical emergency; the phsyiological response to severe anxiety can be very dangerous, with symptoms that include highly elevated heart rate and blood pressure, severe emotional and psychological stress (many patients describe the feeling as a combination of being scared out of their minds and experiencing a "sense of impending doom", both of which they have no control over) and, of course, suicidal ideation if it's a chronic, untreated issue.

**Oh, and for added assholishiness, the parents successfully sued the city, the county, the Fire Department, the dispatcher and me and my partner for negligence in not somehow preventing the death of their kid.  Americans are notoriously litigious, and seemingly incapable of taking personal responsibility for the self-inflicted stupidity in their lives.

[end slightly tangential not-so-CSB]


No offense, and I'm sure you and your team are wonderful people, but I would rather see a hundred first responders shot than one innocent victim just having a tough time. First responders know their lives are in danger every time they come in to work. That's part of the job description. Three people who work as emergency EMTs, firefighters, and police officers should expect that every call they go on might be their last, and be ok with that. On the other hand, NO ONE should feel like they are putting their lives (or the lives of loved ones) at risk just by calling for help. The line at which any first responder should be allowed to prioritize their lives over the lives of any other person needs to be a bright line somewhere just on the other side of "this person has taken clear and unambiguous actions to actively try to kill myself or others." And even then, it should be a difficult choice
2017-07-17 11:37:33 AM  
4 votes:
Nobody made him shoot himself. That was his free will. His choice. The parents were just trying to help. Don't you think they're going to blame themselves? They have to live with it for the rest of their lives when they shouldn't. They didn't make him shoot himself. They didn't see he was visibly in a bad mood, stop him, and say: "Don't forget the gun!" He shot himself. He did it. His free will. Was this all preventable? Of course it was in a myriad of ways, but no one is to blame for him shooting himself except for himself. Tragic all around, but don't go blaming the cops doing what they're trained to do. Don't go blaming the parents for doing what they thought was right. The cops just need different training. How were they to know this wouldn't go the way of murder-suicide? How did they know he wouldn't kill his parents and then himself? They aren't to blame. The parents aren't to blame. He shot himself. That's the cold hard matter-of-fact truth.
2017-07-17 11:27:00 AM  
4 votes:

Millennium: Arachnophobe: It wasn't the parents that called, it was the ex-girlfriend.

[img.fark.net image 150x150]

The parents did not make the call. No word on whether the boyfriend played the "I'll kill myself if you leave" card, but if he did then there's no cause to blame the ex either; calling the cops is what you do in that situation.


WTF

To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.
2017-07-17 10:47:06 AM  
4 votes:
"Please," the frightened father says he asked them, "why can't you just let him go to sleep?"

Because they are trained to escalate the situation until the person they are dealing with complies or dies.

There is no middle ground.

Also if you knew your son might kill themselves if backed into a corner, why did you engineer them being backed into a corner instead of just letting them sleep?

Why didn't you just let him go to sleep instead of calling the police?

Now you will have that guilt for the rest of your life.
2017-07-17 10:16:54 AM  
4 votes:
Hello, 911? My son has locked himself in his room, and I just want to make sure he's alright. ...Yes, very depressed. Girl troubles, you know.... Yes, he did make some vague threats...  Well, he has his 9mm pistol... No, just a pit bull... Sounds to me like he just needs to sleep it off, I just wanted to let you all know!
2017-07-17 10:09:01 AM  
4 votes:

Jimmy's getting angry: TOSViolation: cpubus: "Don't back me into a corner," his father remembers Austin saying. "Because I'll make it go away in four seconds."
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.

So the meaning was clear... yet he calls the police.

In the hall upstairs, Austin's mother spoke to him through his locked bedroom door. "Whatever's happening," Kate Harrison says she called to her son, "I love you, and we can work it out."

Then immediately start pestering him.
I get the feeling they never actually leave him the fark alone

The parents basically murdered him.  He told them to just leave him the fark alone, so the farkwads call the police.  His parents DESERVE to live the rest of their lives with guilt and pain over his death that they caused.

Favorited as "tard".
Learn to read. The parents didn't call the cops.


Wrong.

FTFA: "Concerned about his state of mind, the woman called police at 9:19 p.m., asking them to check on his welfare.
Minutes later, a Hingham police officer called Russell Reeves at home to ask if Austin had a gun with him. [...]
To Russell Reeves [the father], the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help."
2017-07-17 09:51:02 AM  
4 votes:

tukatz: ...the police have a more violent and rebellious society to deal with.


Got a citation for this, beyond "pulled it out of my pants in a Fark thread"?
2017-07-17 09:45:55 AM  
4 votes:

bisi: FTFA: "... carpe diem, seize the day - was tattooed in artful letters on his chest. His dog, Faith..." - Yeah, there definitely was some build up to this.
But a police seige ist not the best course of action for a person threatening suicide.


I've already granted that calling in a tank and multiple SWAT teams was an over-reaction.  We, of course have no idea what the guy said to the first responders.

I agree that a police siege is not the best course for a "reasonable" person threatening suicide.  Wait, what?

We weren't there.  There was an unstable person threatening suicide with a loaded gun.  What is the proper response in that situation?  Would you walk into that room, unarmed and unarmored, and try to talk him down?   Just walk away and let him sleep it off, allowing him to keep his gun, and potentially murder his ex girlfriend the next day?  Maybe they keep a bunch of disposable cops on store in your hometown?  Yeah, send in Officer Fred, he's old and has damned little to live for these days.

It then just become a matter of scale.  Two armored officers would have been fine, but three would have been bad?  How about an even dozen, if by chance the guy talked about taking others with him?  So, yes, at some point it's a bad look for the local PD when they call in a friggin tank.  But let's not pretend that the over cautious response is what killed the guy.
2017-07-17 09:43:12 AM  
4 votes:

LordJiro: America's police system is broken. Many (if not most) cops have absolutely no idea how to deescalate a situation, and those that do often get reprimanded for talking people down instead of gunning down the "threat". And our legal system has repeatedly told police that if they even feel a twinge of 'fear', they're completely justified in killing someone, no matter how little of a threat was posed, or how cooperative the victim was.

The entire system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.


Police have been disciplined for not shooting to kill. Fact.
2017-07-17 09:42:48 AM  
4 votes:
2017-07-17 09:26:42 AM  
4 votes:
I look upon the police as I do bears, sharks and hornets.

An essential part of the ecosystem perhaps, but best if you go out of your way to avoid dealing with them if possible.  That is obeying traffic laws, ensuring you have no illegal items in your vehicle etc.  However, if you still end up get stopped or in involved in a collision just be polite to let the officer have his little power trip and argue your case in traffic court.

Unfortunately, sometimes calling the cops for this particular case was like inviting bears to your picnic.
2017-07-17 09:26:01 AM  
4 votes:
The cops are always looking for a good excuse to play with their toys and put on a big show. Doesn't matter to them if someone dies since there are never any repercussions to their actions.
2017-07-17 09:25:50 AM  
4 votes:

Ketchuponsteak: cpubus: "Don't back me into a corner," his father remembers Austin saying. "Because I'll make it go away in four seconds."
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.

So the meaning was clear... yet he calls the police.

In the hall upstairs, Austin's mother spoke to him through his locked bedroom door. "Whatever's happening," Kate Harrison says she called to her son, "I love you, and we can work it out."

Then immediately start pestering him.
I get the feeling they never actually leave him the fark alone

"we love you son, so we called the cops on you."

I'm sure that brightened his mood.


Speaking as a parent of kids this age, I fully understand the father's actions. Frankly, he's in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. If he does NOT call and the situation escalates, there may be more than one body, since he knows the kid is armed. If he's the survivor, he still gets to play "what if?" for the rest of his life.

But the police's response was gasoline on a fire. The problem with how most SWAT situations are handle, is the super show of force. It's using a sledgehammer when you need a fly swatter.
2017-07-17 09:13:53 AM  
4 votes:

Nidiot: I blame everyone who called the police instead of letting the poor dude just chill out a bit on his own like he asked. The police just did what they usually do. Don't call them unless you want something or someone shot.


Bears repeating. More and more, the police are a path to escalation, not safety.
2017-07-17 09:10:48 AM  
4 votes:

Unoriginal_Username: cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person

The problem is, if you call the suicide hotline, they will call the cops.
Happened to friends of mine when their daughter called.
It didn't end like this thankfully.


Do they want people to stop calling suicide hotlines?  Because that is exactly how you get people to stop calling suicide hotlines.
2017-07-17 08:55:10 AM  
4 votes:
Wait, I may be wrong. The article says the ex called early on, but also says the father called. What a clusterfark all around.
2017-07-17 08:49:09 AM  
4 votes:

tukatz: Your kid has mental problems, snaps without warning, indicates he's going to kill himself.... so you call the police?  Why?  What magic do you want them to perform to cure him?  They're going to be more concerned that a mentally ill guy has a gun and will turn it on others.  And why does someone diagnosed with mental illness own a gun?  Dad didn't seem to have a problem with that.

You want to help him?  Then do something yourself.  Why would you call to say your kid is acting dangerously, then say everything to deny it when the police get there?  Get him some help from medical professionals.  Don't try to pawn it off on others, then biatch when it doesn't go the way you wanted.

It's almost like some people need the drama.  They won't do anything themselves, but like to throw the blame around when things go badly.   The kid would have probably shot himself anyways.... but now they can claim it someone else's fault.  That way they can continue to be delusional about how great their son was and how he was so safe to be around.

Ridiculous.  If so many people hate the police, why do they continue to call them with nonsense?  Try taking care of your own issues.


It wasn't the parents that called, it was the ex-girlfriend.
2017-07-17 08:20:08 AM  
4 votes:

Technoir: DAMN IT!

Never NOT read the entire thread before posting. Apologies for the duplication of comment effort.


No, it's a good call.  I'm glad it was what you thought of too when you read that post.

For some reason that story has not been deemed worthy of fark's main page, and it deserves to be. We should link it as much as we can.
2017-07-18 04:48:11 AM  
3 votes:

Ker_Thwap: Schmerd1948: Ker_Thwap: My first thought would be to call a suicide prevention hotline, unless of course I suspected that my child with the gun was likely to take out a few other people including myself, neighbors, ex girlfriends, etc.; at which point the responsible thing would be to call the police.

  So, the parents are fearful for their own lives, and the police aren't allowed to be fearful for their own lives and take precautions like wearing body armor?  The parents just expected a Hollywood ending where a kindly old police officer takes off the vest, risks his/her own life and smoothly says the perfect words, that perfectly penetrate the angst of the would be suicide.

The guy shot himself, there's very little the police could have done to prevent that.  No one else got shot, that's a positive outcome.

They armored vehicle was a nice touch. And the multiple town-forces.
You really don't think they over-reacted?

My then wife passed out and thumped to the floor one night.  I called 911.  Within 10 minutes there were 30 local volunteer firemen cluttering up my house, clogging the parking spaces, so that by the time the ambulance arrived, it had no where to park.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯   Responders get bored.  At worst, it was a giant waste of funding.

So, yes.  You're right, it does seem to be an over-reaction.  Better than an under-reaction, where innocents got killed as well.  Did the over-reaction directly lead to the suicide? Dubious.  There was a massive life long chain of events that led to the suicide.  It's a complex issue, and it's a bit insensitive to pretend it's a single issue concern that can be solved with a snap of the fingers and a few magic words in every case.


you are reaching so you can defend the police doing the exact opposite of what they are supposed to do.  They are not supposed to escalate a situation and they very clearly escalated this one to an extreme degree.  They knew they had a guy who has made no threats to harm anyone else but possible harm himself if he wasn't left alone so they send in a swat team and APCs?  They backed him into a corner and escalated what was happening to the point that someone who was already upset and not thinking clearly now was overloaded with the chaos the police surrounded him with and what may have been just words to get his parents to leave him alone became the only option in his mind....he pulled the trigger...the police did everything wrong.
2017-07-17 02:51:57 PM  
3 votes:

Lusiphur: Splinthar: Lusiphur: Splinthar: Lusiphur: docpeteyJ: Yeah, sometimes it's the family that do really stupid things that leave you wondering just WTF they were thinking.  I'm torn on whether or not the family in TFA played a role in what I see as a completely avoidable and pointless tragedy.

Last year, my Rescue Unit was dispatched on a teenager who, the parents reported, was alone in the house and having a severe anxiety attack*.No need for PD backup.  My partner and  I responded to find a distraught 16-year old sitting on the couch with a blanket on his lap. Absolutely we were in the mindset that this was a medical call, and nothing more. We see it all the time.

Did the parents mention that he had a history of suicide attempts?  That he wasn't actually having an anxiety attack, but had called them to say he wanted to kill himself?  THAT THERE WAS A LOADED, UNSECURED FIREARM IN THE HOUSE?  Which he told his parents he was in possession of?  No, they did not**.  And considering Utah has a reputation for NOT shooting first and asking questions later, I don't think their omission of these very important facts had anything to do with fear for their child's safety from over-enthusiastic cops.  Might just have had something to do with the fact that there was a meth lab in their shed.

What the parents DID do was that they reported it was an anxiety attack, stated it was an ongoing problem with him, and which (at least here) is treated as a medical problem, not a police one.  So off we went expecting to administer the appropriate medication and transport him for observation in the ER.  No need for PD backup.

Within five minutes of our arrival, where we found an obviously distraught teenaged male sitting on the couch with a blanket in his lap, he pulled out a loaded 9mm, put it to his head, and pulled the trigger.  My partner, who is damned lucky to be alive, was less than five feet away from him at the time, although he later needed medical care to remove a chunk of the kid's skull from his ...

I am not the one calling for 100 to be injured to prevent rustling the jimmies of someone who is having a mental episode, your knee-jerk hot-take BS is the triggered typing of someone who has finally lost patience with being rational.

I said that police should have handled it better, but also that EMS and First Responders shouldn't be treated like a meat shield.  You are the one using 4.5 x differential on casualties to dehumanize not only police but all first responders.

We agree that police should absolutely not shoot people nearly as often as they do, and they should be judged for it.

We agree its tragic that people who call 911 don't get help but rather get more problems.

Where we don't agree is you thinking its ok to say that 100 first responders should be harmed before a single suffering person.

You clearly are going full binary on the situation when what is really needed is a spectrum of understanding and response.

We've had calm, measured debate on this. For years. fark, we've had rational conversations for decades. Community policing, harm reduction, and minimizing violence have been hot topics since the 80s. And even as the jobs of police and other first responders have gotten orders of magnitude safer, violence by the police has ramped up. A reasonable response does not work against an unreasonable position.

Also, I hesitate to take seriously anyone who say "rustle jimmies" unironically.


I suspect police violence hasn't actually increased. Awareness of police violence has certainly increased, but ive seen no evidence that the actual violence has.
2017-07-17 02:41:31 PM  
3 votes:

Lusiphur: docpeteyJ: DarkVader: Given what we saw happen here, what the parents of the victim in your case did was the right thing to do unless they were familiar with your protocol of sending in a psychologist.

And the part of your protocol that has the police involved at all is still a problem.  There should be no police called, they shouldn't be nearby, they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the scene.

Look who didn't read my other responses.  I'll repeat it for you.

The parents lied to us because they were concealing their illegal activities, therefore we had no chance to prevent that kid's suicide.

There were no police on scene,  Just me and my partner.

If the parents had been honest with us, we would have engaged (by phone first) a specially trained hostage negotiator/psychologist as per protocol, and PD would have been staging nearby and would not have interfered unless the patient became a danger to other people.

Lusiphur:  <snipped for brevity>

No offense, but you have no idea how EMS works, especially in regards to scene safety and how we handle suicidal patients.  You made this perfectly clear with this statement:

Should the parents have told you the kid was suicidal? Probably.

Probably?  PROBABLY?  How the hell am I supposed to treat my patient accordingly if I've been purposely given blatantly incorrect medical information and a false history of the chief complain regarding the patient in question?  Wait, I know...let me put on my f*cking psychic hat. What you don't understand is that when my dispatcher sends me on a call, they provide to me as much information about the patient as the calltaker was able to glean.  Why?  So I can be prepared to TREAT THE REPORTED PROBLEM WITHOUT DELAY.

*sigh*

Good to know how little you value the lives of emergency medical personnel.

Good to know how little you value the lives of emergency medical personnel.

I'm not paid to value the lives of emergency personnel of any kind, unlike said emergency personnel. And frankly, I actually value you guys quite highly.

If I could be assured that calling 911 and saying "my child is suicidal and has a handgun" would result in a team of EMTs, a trained counselor, and a squad car parked up the block and told to stay there unless called in, I would be all about full forthright disclosure. But if giving out information, no matter how pertinent, is going to result in a significantly higher chance that I or my loved ones will get shot, then fark you. You'll get just enough to keep my family (and frankly, my neighbors, given how often cops get the house wrong) safe.


you're kind of a psychopath.
2017-07-17 12:44:59 PM  
3 votes:

Cubicle Jockey: So they think have identified the Minnesota cop who killed the Australian.
http://kstp.com/news/mohamed-noor-officer-involved-shooting-justine-di​amond-fatal-minneapolis-shooting/4544324/#.WWzXWMZhnM0.twitter

So it's like a bizzarro world version of the usual police shooting.


They always ID the scary brown guy. Always.

But here's the issue now: the guy doesn't get fired and charged and all everyone will be up in arms because dead blonde.

If he gets charged and convicted, then it's going to be racism since the brown guy was charged for killing the blonde woman when white cops are rarely charged for shooting brown men.

This is the case needed to really bring accountability to police shootings, but I can't wait for the cognitive dissonance over the potential for accountability for police shooting of brown men might come from the shooting of a white woman by a brown man.
2017-07-17 12:20:44 PM  
3 votes:

Nidiot: doglover: cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person

They just shot an unarmed blonde white Australian woman in Minneapolis, after she called them for help http://www.startribune.com/woman-killed-in-officer-involved-shoot​ing-in-south-minneapolis/434782213/#1 so you have to update that advice. Skin tone is now irrelevant.

Don't call the police unless you want someone shot.


What the ever loving hell is wrong with cops in this country?!?  If you are a cop and these stories don't make you seriously sick, angry or worse... and if you don't say or do anything about it... then you are just as big of a piece of shiat that these guys are.  Period.

And if you have a body cam on your person and it's not ON and RECORDING for any reason when incidents like this go down, then you are essentially admitting guilt and should be locked up until proven otherwise.

Oh, I know this will bring the 'innocent until proven guilty' wonks out of the woodwork...  But cops are basically put in charge of upholding the law.  By doing so you are NOT above that law and you ARE held to a higher standard than those who the law is designed to protect.  There needs to be some form of consequence for those that don't and we're long overdue for this type of justice reform.
2017-07-17 12:11:28 PM  
3 votes:

Ker_Thwap: bisi: FTFA: "... carpe diem, seize the day - was tattooed in artful letters on his chest. His dog, Faith..." - Yeah, there definitely was some build up to this.
But a police seige ist not the best course of action for a person threatening suicide.

I've already granted that calling in a tank and multiple SWAT teams was an over-reaction.  We, of course have no idea what the guy said to the first responders.

I agree that a police siege is not the best course for a "reasonable" person threatening suicide.  Wait, what?

We weren't there.  There was an unstable person threatening suicide with a loaded gun.  What is the proper response in that situation?  Would you walk into that room, unarmed and unarmored, and try to talk him down?   Just walk away and let him sleep it off, allowing him to keep his gun, and potentially murder his ex girlfriend the next day?  Maybe they keep a bunch of disposable cops on store in your hometown?  Yeah, send in Officer Fred, he's old and has damned little to live for these days.

It then just become a matter of scale.  Two armored officers would have been fine, but three would have been bad?  How about an even dozen, if by chance the guy talked about taking others with him?  So, yes, at some point it's a bad look for the local PD when they call in a friggin tank.  But let's not pretend that the over cautious response is what killed the guy.


Fortunately, the only two options are either:

1) surround the house with literally hundreds of armed rifleman, or
2) walk in unarmed

There simply no other alternatives.
2017-07-17 11:32:30 AM  
3 votes:
Question for the EMS or other knowledgeable farkers: what is the best course of action when a person (family member, friend, whatever) is armed and threatening suicide or something similar, when you can't handle the situation by yourself but would still like them to remain un"helped" by police?

/It is still quite a leap from "person considering or talking about suicide" to "ex-person". Interesting article I read a while ago: https://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/opinionator/2013/06/02/a-simple-way-​t​o-reduce-suicides/?referer=
2017-07-17 11:26:55 AM  
3 votes:

Ker_Thwap: Schmerd1948: Ker_Thwap: My first thought would be to call a suicide prevention hotline, unless of course I suspected that my child with the gun was likely to take out a few other people including myself, neighbors, ex girlfriends, etc.; at which point the responsible thing would be to call the police.

  So, the parents are fearful for their own lives, and the police aren't allowed to be fearful for their own lives and take precautions like wearing body armor?  The parents just expected a Hollywood ending where a kindly old police officer takes off the vest, risks his/her own life and smoothly says the perfect words, that perfectly penetrate the angst of the would be suicide.

The guy shot himself, there's very little the police could have done to prevent that.  No one else got shot, that's a positive outcome.

They armored vehicle was a nice touch. And the multiple town-forces.
You really don't think they over-reacted?

My then wife passed out and thumped to the floor one night.  I called 911.  Within 10 minutes there were 30 local volunteer firemen cluttering up my house, clogging the parking spaces, so that by the time the ambulance arrived, it had no where to park.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯   Responders get bored.  At worst, it was a giant waste of funding.

So, yes.  You're right, it does seem to be an over-reaction.  Better than an under-reaction, where innocents got killed as well.  Did the over-reaction directly lead to the suicide? Dubious.  There was a massive life long chain of events that led to the suicide.  It's a complex issue, and it's a bit insensitive to pretend it's a single issue concern that can be solved with a snap of the fingers and a few magic words in every case.


Except that a shiat ton of relatively recent research has shown that youth/adolescent suicide is much different than adult suicide, in that it is often not part of a significantly larger chain of mental health issues, and is often spontaneous and unlikely to be trusted if prevented the first time. Teenager brains aren't wired right - they're incredibly short-sighted and unstable, and can tip over from "totally ok" to "about to kill myself" in seconds, often with no real build-up or history of mental illness.

If this kid was left alone, chances are he would have gotten over it, went to therapy, and been a perfectly functional and normal adult.
2017-07-17 11:08:33 AM  
3 votes:

IRQ12: docpeteyJ: It's important to the safety of my crew.

I think you are nearing identifying the problem.

Nearly all of these recent senseless killings are at the center of 'officer safety'.  Think he is going for a gun may as well shoot him because god forbid he could be clint eastwood and quick draw you down (even though you are already senselessly brandishing and violating the law)


Well, my points were A) the parents LIED to us*.  B) EMS personnel are not psychic.  C) It's not our job to negotiate with an armed, suicidal person; we have professionals for that, and I don't mean the cops. And D) this was an issue of the safety of responding EMS, not what PD may or may not do.

But yeah, I see what you're getting at.

*Perhaps if they had been honest, and not more concerned about their illegal activities than the safety of their child, this wouldn't have happened.  Seriously, IMHO, the ability to take personal responsibility for one's actions is about as rare as common sense nowadays.
2017-07-17 10:38:09 AM  
3 votes:
FYI, the police are not your grief/crisis councilors. They are armed men who make sure order is maintained.
2017-07-17 10:12:32 AM  
3 votes:

alitaki: So this cop who shot the pretty blonde Australian woman...how many years is he getting? Can we get an odds estimate going? I want to try and make some money off of this.


I'd say none except the Australian government is already piling on. No way that incident gets swept under the rug like normal.
2017-07-17 09:29:29 AM  
3 votes:

lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more


Super smart guy! You should know how countries are designated as first,.second, and third world! Because your fathers thought it was a good idea to eradicate an entire race of people! Has enough time gone by that your collective guilt and bare sense of national pride allows you to sit on your shiatter, inspect your feces ad nauseum, and thumb your nose at the prospect that the United States is better at being jack booted thugs than the brownshirts ever were?
2017-07-17 09:25:15 AM  
3 votes:
Deal with it yourself, never call the cops.
2017-07-17 09:20:14 AM  
3 votes:

Nidiot: doglover: cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person

Or ever, really.

The only reason you should call the police is to kill negros. That's not what police are supposed to be, just what they've become. If you need negros murdered, call the police. If you need ANYTHING else, call someone else.

Also if you are black , or even have a heavy tan, and the police show up... GET THE HELL OUTTA THERE!

They just shot an unarmed blonde white Australian woman in Minneapolis, after she called them for help http://www.startribune.com/woman-killed-in-officer-involved-shoot​ing-in-south-minneapolis/434782213/#1 so you have to update that advice. Skin tone is now irrelevant.

Don't call the police unless you want someone shot.


I hate to say this, but that is exactly what needs to keep happening. It's not going to get fixed until it really affects white people. It already is but the national media is, once again, terrible at their jobs. So it needs to happen more because people are collectively stupid and won't seen to change things until they themselves are hurt by it.
2017-07-17 09:18:00 AM  
3 votes:

Nidiot: doglover: cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person

Or ever, really.

The only reason you should call the police is to kill negros. That's not what police are supposed to be, just what they've become. If you need negros murdered, call the police. If you need ANYTHING else, call someone else.

Also if you are black , or even have a heavy tan, and the police show up... GET THE HELL OUTTA THERE!

They just shot an unarmed blonde white Australian woman in Minneapolis, after she called them for help http://www.startribune.com/woman-killed-in-officer-involved-shoot​ing-in-south-minneapolis/434782213/#1 so you have to update that advice. Skin tone is now irrelevant.

Don't call the police unless you want someone shot.


WTF!?!?!?!?!?

Seriously, WTF!?!?!?!?!?!?

We have problems in this country.
2017-07-17 08:45:02 AM  
3 votes:

LordJiro: America's police system is broken. Many (if not most) cops have absolutely no idea how to deescalate a situation, and those that do often get reprimanded for talking people down instead of gunning down the "threat". And our legal system has repeatedly told police that if they even feel a twinge of 'fear', they're completely justified in killing someone, no matter how little of a threat was posed, or how cooperative the victim was.

The entire system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.


No, America is broken.  People need to grow up and take responsibility for themselves.
2017-07-17 08:21:26 AM  
3 votes:

mgshamster: It says his ex-girlfriend called the cops for a welfare check, not his parents.


Wow, she must have really hated him.
2017-07-17 08:18:28 AM  
3 votes:

cman: Keyser_Soze_Death: cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person

Fixed.

If someone was trying to break into my place, I'm gonna call the cops. They do have their uses even tho many of them can be assholes.


Why?  By the time the cops show the crook will be long gone.  Make lots of noise, turn on some lights.  If they still won't stop, get the fark out of the house.
2017-07-17 07:46:12 AM  
3 votes:
Another victory for the NRA
2017-07-17 07:42:37 AM  
3 votes:

cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person


Or ever, really.

The only reason you should call the police is to kill negros. That's not what police are supposed to be, just what they've become. If you need negros murdered, call the police. If you need ANYTHING else, call someone else.

Also if you are black , or even have a heavy tan, and the police show up... GET THE HELL OUTTA THERE!
2017-07-17 07:35:12 AM  
3 votes:

Nidiot: I read that whole piece trying to find the bit that justified why the police were even there in the first place.

There wasn't one.


one of them called for a wellness check.
2017-07-17 04:57:16 PM  
2 votes:

Cthulhu Theory: Lusiphur: doglover: Cthulhu Theory: We could argue for days about what it would have captured

Luckily, we don't have to.

If you have body cameras, and you officially on duty, those cameras should be on.

End of story.

If the cameras were off, I can only assume the police have committed crimes. Normal citizens are innocent until proven guilty. Public servants have taken oaths the supersede that rule. Violation of the oath, ie not using body cameras when you have such cameras, is a crime in and of itself.

This, too. And I've always been a big fan of minimum sentences for public service being equal to no less than double the maximum sentence a random member of the public would be subject to. Public servants are entrusted with a lot of power, and should be held to a much higher level of responsibility.

Pretty sure that would qualify under cruel and unusual punishment. Seriously? You think that taking double the max of a normal civilian as a MINIMUM is going to float? At what point do you believe a public servant waves their constitutional rights?


Ideally, when they swear their oaths of service.

That's kind of the point of oaths. You promise to do a thing, entering into a binding contract with the entity you have sworn an oath to. And the only acceptable penalty for breaking an oath is death. Otherwise it's not an oath then, is it?

If you want to be a public servant, you have to serve the public. If you instead kill the members of the public you have sworn to serve, it's not an unusual or unreasonable request that you kill yourself or submit to execution.

And I'm not even holding them to that baseline standard of punishment we as a society laud in history and cinema. I just want cops to face the SAME laws people who are not cops face. That I assume they're guilty until proven innocent is just a heuristic I've adopted because, by the time a cop story makes the news, they usually ARE guilty.
2017-07-17 04:29:02 PM  
2 votes:

doglover: Cthulhu Theory: We could argue for days about what it would have captured

Luckily, we don't have to.

If you have body cameras, and you officially on duty, those cameras should be on.

End of story.

If the cameras were off, I can only assume the police have committed crimes. Normal citizens are innocent until proven guilty. Public servants have taken oaths the supersede that rule. Violation of the oath, ie not using body cameras when you have such cameras, is a crime in and of itself.


This, too. And I've always been a big fan of minimum sentences for public service being equal to no less than double the maximum sentence a random member of the public would be subject to. Public servants are entrusted with a lot of power, and should be held to a much higher level of responsibility.
2017-07-17 02:40:04 PM  
2 votes:

TOSViolation: burncheese: So, the ex called first, but ultimately it was the father's call that dispatched the police. Are we clear yet?

Yes.  I was clear on that the entire time, which is why I blame the father.  The ex asked for a welfare check.  Presumably, after the police initially spoke to the father, they were not going to get involved.  Then, the father went full-retard.


I blame the grown adult who barricaded himself in his room, made threats against the police, refused to answer the phone, and shot himself with a handgun.

The fully grown adult who made the series of decisions that led directly to this tragedy shares most of the blame.
2017-07-17 02:19:08 PM  
2 votes:

Cthulhu Theory: The Larch: Are you saying race won't be a factor in the public reaction to this? Because if so, you're completely, totally, 100% wrong.

No, I said it won't factor into the judgement. The law tends to be on the side of the police, which is evidenced by the myriad officers who kill people every year and get off with a slap on the wrist. The public reaction may force the department to put him on desk duty or even can him, but that's about as far as it will go based on the extremely limited amount of information available at this time.

The Larch: Or are you acknowledging that there will be an outcry from racists who will demand that the black Muslim Somali immigrant who shot the pretty white woman should be in prison, and are you saying you're prepared to see the innumerable stories on right wing blogs about how liberal Minneapolis leftists want to murdee pretty white blond people with their progressive ISIS police force. But you believe those stories won't influence the outcome of the investigation?

I'm not interested in public outrage on this. You all want to whip this into a racially and/or culturally charged circle jerk, that's on you. I'll have none of it. 

Remember Freddy Gray, by the way? Not a single cop, even the black ones, were found guilty, despite the outrage.

If you think the guy being brown skinned and muslim is gonna change anything, you're a racist moron.


If you don't think the guy being a Muslim immigrant from Somalia is going to change anything, you haven't been paying attention to the approximately 25% of Americans who are proud to be deplorable.
2017-07-17 01:41:28 PM  
2 votes:

Cthulhu Theory: bisi: Cthulhu Theory: bisi: Cthulhu Theory: Lusiphur: Triggered much? Last year (2016), 135 police officers were killed in the line of duty, including traffic fatalities. This year (2017) SO FAR the police have killed 523 people. I don't know where you get Tumblr it self-medicating/self-diagnosing from, other than you just have a list of Boogeyman words you spot when you're confronted by opinions you don't like, but it seems like the police have made it clear that they value their lives way above the lives of anyone else. I'm not reinforcing shiat - the police have already made it clear that they see "civilians" as the enemy, and if it keeps going, it won't be long until EMTs start seeing themselves as combat medics and carrying guns. And for the record, you're all farking civilians.

They are literally trained to treat every traffic stop as a potential life or death situation. Civilians are not "the enemy" as you put it, but potential threats to their life. There's a fundamental difference there I think you need to consider.

Occupational hazard. Do cops not know that going in?
At what point does it start to become self serving?

Of course they know it going in, they're trained to know it, expect it, and predict it so they can mitigate the threat before it injures someone else. Clearly it's flawed because we have way too many unarmed people being shot.

But what do you mean by self-serving?

Self serving in the sense that their own protection from any, even perceived, threats is valued higher than the life of a possibly innocent person.

Sounds like you have an overly romanticized view of the police. I'll say it as many times as I need to. If you're the reason the police are there, they will prioritize their life over yours every time. Every move you make is scrutinized as a potential threat. You are a potential threat until they have you patted down and cuffed.

They're trained to suspect that at any point, even unarmed, you can turn the routine stop into a life or death situation by going for their own gun and shooting them, grabbing their own unseen weapon, or even directly assaulting them, or any other number of methods. Pretty much, unless you're a passerby, you're considered a viable threat and they have a right, if not a duty, to protect their lives from you regardless of whether or not you're an actual threat.


You're not wrong. But is this really how you want law enforcement to operate? Living under the threat that, when confronted with them, one false move can get you killed immediately?
I am from a country with substantially fewer guns, so my respective may be a little skewed. But even when you're armed, you'd have to pretty much actively draw towards a LEO to get this kind of response.

You really don't see how farked up this is?
2017-07-17 01:27:34 PM  
2 votes:

Cthulhu Theory: Thingster: Cthulhu Theory: Thingster: Cubicle Jockey: So they think have identified the Minnesota cop who killed the Australian.
http://kstp.com/news/mohamed-noor-officer-involved-shooting-justine-di​amond-fatal-minneapolis-shooting/4544324/#.WWzXWMZhnM0.twitter

So it's like a bizzarro world version of the usual police shooting.

They always ID the scary brown guy. Always.

But here's the issue now: the guy doesn't get fired and charged and all everyone will be up in arms because dead blonde.

If he gets charged and convicted, then it's going to be racism since the brown guy was charged for killing the blonde woman when white cops are rarely charged for shooting brown men.

This is the case needed to really bring accountability to police shootings, but I can't wait for the cognitive dissonance over the potential for accountability for police shooting of brown men might come from the shooting of a white woman by a brown man.

This is the stupidest race baiting bullshiat I've seen in a while. The cop(s) will probably claim they thought she was reaching for a weapon and get away with a slap on the wrist. Race is an irrelevant factor here unless you're a racist POS.

It isn't race baiting. I'm not saying it's right, or the way it should be.  I'm saying that's how it's going to play out since race has everything to do with who gets in trouble for what in cases like this.

I'm speaking to reality, not idealism.

I'll take you and everyone else up on this bet that he's gonna get in trouble because he's not white. He won't. Because he's a cop. Race only factors into it when assholes like you try to shove the narrative down people's throats. I will add a qualifying aspect to this though, if it turns out the guy shot her because he hates white women or she was slinging racial slurs at him, then I'll shut up about the race card being played. But until we get more information, I'm going to argue that it needs to be kept off the GD table because it has 0 place for it right now.


I'm not saying the cop or the blonde was racist.

I'm saying the system has built in biases, and it's going to be this strange wrestling match between the power of cop, the power of race, and the power of dead blonde woman in the media.

So take a deep breath there, dear. We're all on this ride together.
2017-07-17 01:10:52 PM  
2 votes:

DarkVader: Given what we saw happen here, what the parents of the victim in your case did was the right thing to do unless they were familiar with your protocol of sending in a psychologist.

And the part of your protocol that has the police involved at all is still a problem.  There should be no police called, they shouldn't be nearby, they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the scene.


Look who didn't read my other responses.  I'll repeat it for you.

The parents lied to us because they were concealing their illegal activities, therefore we had no chance to prevent that kid's suicide.

There were no police on scene,  Just me and my partner.

If the parents had been honest with us, we would have engaged (by phone first) a specially trained hostage negotiator/psychologist as per protocol, and PD would have been staging nearby and would not have interfered unless the patient became a danger to other people.

Lusiphur:  <snipped for brevity>

No offense, but you have no idea how EMS works, especially in regards to scene safety and how we handle suicidal patients.  You made this perfectly clear with this statement:

Should the parents have told you the kid was suicidal? Probably.

Probably?  PROBABLY?  How the hell am I supposed to treat my patient accordingly if I've been purposely given blatantly incorrect medical information and a false history of the chief complain regarding the patient in question?  Wait, I know...let me put on my f*cking psychic hat. What you don't understand is that when my dispatcher sends me on a call, they provide to me as much information about the patient as the calltaker was able to glean.  Why?  So I can be prepared to TREAT THE REPORTED PROBLEM WITHOUT DELAY.

*sigh*

Good to know how little you value the lives of emergency medical personnel.
2017-07-17 12:39:12 PM  
2 votes:

Splinthar: Lusiphur: docpeteyJ: Yeah, sometimes it's the family that do really stupid things that leave you wondering just WTF they were thinking.  I'm torn on whether or not the family in TFA played a role in what I see as a completely avoidable and pointless tragedy.

Last year, my Rescue Unit was dispatched on a teenager who, the parents reported, was alone in the house and having a severe anxiety attack*.No need for PD backup.  My partner and  I responded to find a distraught 16-year old sitting on the couch with a blanket on his lap. Absolutely we were in the mindset that this was a medical call, and nothing more. We see it all the time.

Did the parents mention that he had a history of suicide attempts?  That he wasn't actually having an anxiety attack, but had called them to say he wanted to kill himself?  THAT THERE WAS A LOADED, UNSECURED FIREARM IN THE HOUSE?  Which he told his parents he was in possession of?  No, they did not**.  And considering Utah has a reputation for NOT shooting first and asking questions later, I don't think their omission of these very important facts had anything to do with fear for their child's safety from over-enthusiastic cops.  Might just have had something to do with the fact that there was a meth lab in their shed.

What the parents DID do was that they reported it was an anxiety attack, stated it was an ongoing problem with him, and which (at least here) is treated as a medical problem, not a police one.  So off we went expecting to administer the appropriate medication and transport him for observation in the ER.  No need for PD backup.

Within five minutes of our arrival, where we found an obviously distraught teenaged male sitting on the couch with a blanket in his lap, he pulled out a loaded 9mm, put it to his head, and pulled the trigger.  My partner, who is damned lucky to be alive, was less than five feet away from him at the time, although he later needed medical care to remove a chunk of the kid's skull from his face.  When I heard t ...

You really just typed that out and put it on the internet for people to see.

Look there is a whole host of ways to say that you are unhappy with the way first responders like police deal with problems, but categorically the statement:

No offense, and I'm sure you and your team are wonderful people, but I would rather see a hundred first responders shot than one innocent victim just having a tough time.

Tumblr is leaking and that septic, naive, self-medicating/diagnosing bullshiat is societally toxic.  You are a callous bigot if you think its ok to treat first-responders like meat on a 100-1 harm scenario.
Police need to follow better force-escalation guidelines but there is no need to be so cavalier with other First Responders.

Your mentality is what reinforces the believe that civilians are the enemy, because your assertion is disgusting and turned my stomach.  Please take a moment and re-evaluate that line and realize how inhumane it is.


Triggered much? Last year (2016), 135 police officers were killed in the line of duty, including traffic fatalities. This year (2017) SO FAR the police have killed 523 people. I don't know where you get Tumblr it self-medicating/self-diagnosing from, other than you just have a list of Boogeyman words you spot when you're confronted by opinions you don't like, but it seems like the police have made it clear that they value their lives way above the lives of anyone else. I'm not reinforcing shiat - the police have already made it clear that they see "civilians" as the enemy, and if it keeps going, it won't be long until EMTs start seeing themselves as combat medics and carrying guns. And for the record, you're all farking civilians. The fact that you would even think to use that word tells me exactly what kind of power-tripping asshole you are.

At the end of the day, you, as a first responder, have pledged to sacrifice your life for the life of another if it comes down to it. At that point, I don't see why the ratio matters. Especially since I'm not advocating for violence against first responders. Merely pointing out that if it came down to a choice of kill an EMT or kill a mentally handicapped man with a gun that could be talked down if he was given half a chance, the choice is a no brainer, and I would make it every time.

If that man with a gun opened for in a crowd, or even opened fire on first responders and didn't respond to de-escalation, then the opposite choice would become a no brainer. But until the is actual, immediate, and unambiguous threat to the safety of others first and the safety of responders second, the "civilian" gets priority. Every. Single. Time.
2017-07-17 12:20:01 PM  
2 votes:

mrinfoguy: lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more

Super smart guy! You should know how countries are designated as first,.second, and third world! Because your fathers thought it was a good idea to eradicate an entire race of people! Has enough time gone by that your collective guilt and bare sense of national pride allows you to sit on your shiatter, inspect your feces ad nauseum, and thumb your nose at the prospect that the United States is better at being jack booted thugs than the brownshirts ever were?


They really do have weird toilets in Germany. It's like a little shelf for your poop to sit on.
2017-07-17 11:35:38 AM  
2 votes:

Lusiphur: Except that a shiat ton of relatively recent research has shown that youth/adolescent suicide is much different than adult suicide, in that it is often not part of a significantly larger chain of mental health issues, and is often spontaneous and unlikely to be trusted if prevented the first time. Teenager brains aren't wired right - they're incredibly short-sighted and unstable, and can tip over from "totally ok" to "about to kill myself" in seconds, often with no real build-up or history of mental illness.

If this kid was left alone, chances are he would have gotten over it, went to therapy, and been a perfectly functional and normal adult.


Sure, sounds about right to me.  We're also dealing with age 26, with is just barely past the limit of when the male brain fully develops.  My point was more along the lines of we shouldn't treat suicide as a simple, easily solved matter.
2017-07-17 11:19:41 AM  
2 votes:

Dadoody: FYI, the police are not your grief/crisis councilors. They are armed men who make sure order is maintained.


But there ought to be emergency grief/crisis councilors who are trained to handle this shiat.
2017-07-17 10:56:55 AM  
2 votes:
Always remember kids, Police are not your friends. They are not there to help, if someone needs help, don't call the police. They are not mental health professionals, they are not a suicide hotline, and they are not there to help. If someone has a problem, the police are not going aid anything, especially if there is a weapon of any sort involved, they are only going to make things worse. The US Supreme Court has affirmed they are under no obligation or requirement to protect or serve, never forget that or believe otherwise. Countless tragedies have occurred because people forget that.

If someone is having a major mental health issue, the last thing anyone should do is involve the police. The role they have defined for themselves is inherently unable to do anything but make such a situation worse. If someone is threatening to harm themselves, the police response will be essentially to do it for them.

TL;DR if someone is having a crisis, the police aren't going to help, don't call them.
2017-07-17 10:46:27 AM  
2 votes:

ToastmasterGeneral: LowbrowDeluxe: ToastmasterGeneral: Shadow Blasko: Nevercall the cops if worried about someone's mental health.

Just don't.

So who do you call?  Social services?  Guess what, potentially suicidal person with a firearm?  Social services is going to call the police.  As they should.  What if this guy had decided to kill his parents before killing himself?  Or his ex-girlfriend?

Now, none of this is to say that the police response in this case was proper.  It was horribly handled.

But at the same time, assuming that people with mental challenges and firearms will always be safe on their own is horribly misguided, too.

My, god, what if he developed psychic powers and went all Carrie and killed everyone in the neighborhood?!?

If you're going for the ludicrousness award, then congrats.

Otherwise, do you have a thought as to what should happen when a person with mental challenges and a firearm indicates that they're having problems?


Well, just a thought, but maybe a few less of them would end up dead by their own hands or police if people's response wasn't "Nutso has a gun!  He's going to kill everyone!"  Like how is that even where your mind goes on "I'm going to kill myself"?
2017-07-17 10:45:35 AM  
2 votes:

cpubus: "Don't back me into a corner," his father remembers Austin saying. "Because I'll make it go away in four seconds."
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.

So the meaning was clear... yet he calls the police.

In the hall upstairs, Austin's mother spoke to him through his locked bedroom door. "Whatever's happening," Kate Harrison says she called to her son, "I love you, and we can work it out."

Then immediately start pestering him.
I get the feeling they never actually leave him the fark alone


Suicidal Tendencies - "Institutionalized" Frontier Records
Youtube LoF_a0-7xVQ
2017-07-17 10:40:11 AM  
2 votes:

DarkVader: docpeteyJ: I suppose my point is that when you DO call 911, please be honest about the situation. If there really is an armed, suicidal person on scene, for the love of god, tell the dispatcher.

DO NOT DO THAT.  You WILL get someone killed if you do that.

I'm not being an insensitive dick when I say that I'd rather see the cops go overboard and take down an armed person than risk one of my medics' lives.

Yes, you are being an insensitive dick.  Look, that's a sucky situation.  But the cops are NOT going to handle it any better than you are, they're going to be MUCH worse at it in virtually all of the US.  Maybe where you are, they aren't that bad.  But until this gets fixed, if you are calling for help for a suicidal person:

DO NOT TELL 911 THAT THERE IS A GUN INVOLVED.

IF THEY ASK, TELL THEM NO IF YOU WANT SOMEONE YOU CARE ABOUT TO LIVE.


Umm...my job is not to negotiate with an armed person, regardless of their psychological state.  And YES, I need to know if there's a firearm involved.  It's important to the safety of my crew.

What should we have done differently?  The PARENTS in the situation I shared were the ones who called. We didn't just show up spontaneously, ya know.  And might I remind you, paramedics don't wear bullet-resistant vests, nor are we armed.  And our training in these types of calls is woefully inadequate (which I have long and unsuccessfully biatched about).

Would I have preferred that no one die?  Of course.  But if it comes down to choosing between the person with the gun, and one of my medics, I'm going to choose the latter.
2017-07-17 10:34:51 AM  
2 votes:

Ker_Thwap: bisi: Ker_Thwap: bisi: FTFA: "... carpe diem, seize the day - was tattooed in artful letters on his chest. His dog, Faith..." - Yeah, there definitely was some build up to this.
But a police seige ist not the best course of action for a person threatening suicide.

I've already granted that calling in a tank and multiple SWAT teams was an over-reaction.  We, of course have no idea what the guy said to the first responders.

I agree that a police siege is not the best course for a "reasonable" person threatening suicide.  Wait, what?

We weren't there.  There was an unstable person threatening suicide with a loaded gun.  What is the proper response in that situation?  Would you walk into that room, unarmed and unarmored, and try to talk him down?   Just walk away and let him sleep it off, allowing him to keep his gun, and potentially murder his ex girlfriend the next day?  Maybe they keep a bunch of disposable cops on store in your hometown?  Yeah, send in Officer Fred, he's old and has damned little to live for these days.

It then just become a matter of scale.  Two armored officers would have been fine, but three would have been bad?  How about an even dozen, if by chance the guy talked about taking others with him?  So, yes, at some point it's a bad look for the local PD when they call in a friggin tank.  But let's not pretend that the over cautious response is what killed the guy.

There is containing the person while trying  to strategically de-escalate the situation and disarm him.
And then there is going full SWAT, putting them in a corner until the pressure leads to a quick and permanent solution.

... and you pretend to know exactly how it played out?  We don't even know if the guy was aware of the full SWAT.  It might have been a kindly officer (in armor), at a safe distance, trying to strategically de-escalate the situation.  While outside the multitude of pretty lights flashed.  You make it sound like the police lined him up against a wall with a firing ...


I don't pretend to know that, get off my case.
I do find it curious how you can identify with the girl's parents but not with the young man's. And then there's the whole "the important thing is that he is neutralized and not a threat anymore"-derp.
2017-07-17 10:10:13 AM  
2 votes:
When you're a hammer, everyone else is a nail.
2017-07-17 10:06:43 AM  
2 votes:

Barricaded Gunman: orangehat: lucksi: his name is my name too: lucksi: cman: lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more

Deutschland uber alles

Are you an expat living there, or are you native?

it's funny how you people know such things, yet elect a leader running on that platform

uh no... we people didn't, we people elected Hillary by 3 million more votes than the derp brigade.  The EC abdicated their duty and elected the demagogue which is outside of the people's control.

yeah, it's not like you have historical precedent that some peoples vote only count for 3 fifth...

 And it's not like your country has a precedent for counting the voting populous as negative 6 million.

Let me guess: you're one of those banal American sh*t-heels who meets Europeans and says "Do you speak German? No? You're welcome." as if you personally stormed the beach at Normandy.

Stop trying to distract from America's enormous current shame by reflexively babbling half-remembered history from 75 years ago. In your own way, you people are every bit as embarrassing as Trump.


So reflexively babbling history from 75 years ago isn't a proper response to reflexively babbling history from 150 years ago?
2017-07-17 09:57:14 AM  
2 votes:

TOSViolation: cpubus: "Don't back me into a corner," his father remembers Austin saying. "Because I'll make it go away in four seconds."
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.

So the meaning was clear... yet he calls the police.

In the hall upstairs, Austin's mother spoke to him through his locked bedroom door. "Whatever's happening," Kate Harrison says she called to her son, "I love you, and we can work it out."

Then immediately start pestering him.
I get the feeling they never actually leave him the fark alone

The parents basically murdered him.  He told them to just leave him the fark alone, so the farkwads call the police.  His parents DESERVE to live the rest of their lives with guilt and pain over his death that they caused.


Favorited as "tard".
Learn to read. The parents didn't call the cops.
2017-07-17 09:55:53 AM  
2 votes:

Ker_Thwap: bisi: FTFA: "... carpe diem, seize the day - was tattooed in artful letters on his chest. His dog, Faith..." - Yeah, there definitely was some build up to this.
But a police seige ist not the best course of action for a person threatening suicide.

I've already granted that calling in a tank and multiple SWAT teams was an over-reaction.  We, of course have no idea what the guy said to the first responders.

I agree that a police siege is not the best course for a "reasonable" person threatening suicide.  Wait, what?

We weren't there.  There was an unstable person threatening suicide with a loaded gun.  What is the proper response in that situation?  Would you walk into that room, unarmed and unarmored, and try to talk him down?   Just walk away and let him sleep it off, allowing him to keep his gun, and potentially murder his ex girlfriend the next day?  Maybe they keep a bunch of disposable cops on store in your hometown?  Yeah, send in Officer Fred, he's old and has damned little to live for these days.

It then just become a matter of scale.  Two armored officers would have been fine, but three would have been bad?  How about an even dozen, if by chance the guy talked about taking others with him?  So, yes, at some point it's a bad look for the local PD when they call in a friggin tank.  But let's not pretend that the over cautious response is what killed the guy.


There is containing the person while trying  to strategically de-escalate the situation and disarm him.
And then there is going full SWAT, putting them in a corner until the pressure leads to a quick and permanent solution.
2017-07-17 09:52:53 AM  
2 votes:

alitaki: So this cop who shot the pretty blonde Australian woman...how many years is he getting? Can we get an odds estimate going? I want to try and make some money off of this.


I don't want to be overly optimistic, but when I read the story my first thought was, "This guy might actually serve time."

Instead he'll probably just get fired and have to do 50hours community service.
2017-07-17 09:23:47 AM  
2 votes:
"Don't ever invite a vampire police officer into your house, you silly boy.  It renders you powerless."
2017-07-17 09:11:30 AM  
2 votes:

cpubus: "Don't back me into a corner," his father remembers Austin saying. "Because I'll make it go away in four seconds."
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.

So the meaning was clear... yet he calls the police.

In the hall upstairs, Austin's mother spoke to him through his locked bedroom door. "Whatever's happening," Kate Harrison says she called to her son, "I love you, and we can work it out."

Then immediately start pestering him.
I get the feeling they never actually leave him the fark alone


"we love you son, so we called the cops on you."

I'm sure that brightened his mood.
2017-07-17 09:00:58 AM  
2 votes:

Arachnophobe: It wasn't the parents that called, it was the ex-girlfriend.


img.fark.net

The parents did not make the call. No word on whether the boyfriend played the "I'll kill myself if you leave" card, but if he did then there's no cause to blame the ex either; calling the cops is what you do in that situation.
2017-07-17 08:51:05 AM  
2 votes:

casual disregard: What is the primary purpose of police? Beyond paperwork and investigations, it's not protecting the public. No, the primary purpose of the police is to neutralize threats. Insofar as the police are concerned, and the people who voted in a police force with that modus operandi, it can only be seen as mission accomplished.

If you own guns the police will kill you if they perceive you as a threat. If you are having a mental breakdown the police will kill you if they perceive you as a threat. If you are nonwhite the police will kill you if they perceive you as a threat (if you won't listen to me, at least give Chris Rock a chance, might just save your life). Heck sometimes they even shoot white people, but they try to keep it out of the news (offer may not be valid in Zimbabwe).

How "duh" can we get on this? How many more times do we have to see a police killing before we simply accept it not only as reality but as the political will of the democratic republican populace? I'd bet a dollar at the casino that this victim's parents voted for the very politicians that enabled this sort of environment to emerge. But not more than a dollar. I dislike games of chance even when rigged in my favor.

It's all about perception.


You're right.  It IS all about perception.  Like yours is apparently warped by your personal hatred of law enforcement.   Not everyone feels that way.  In fact, many people see the ever growing violence and crime and are afraid.  They also know that the police have a more violent and rebellious society to deal with.  And that they aren't paid to die over someone's inability to follow commands or lack of control.
2017-07-17 08:14:19 AM  
2 votes:

lucksi: cman: lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more

Deutschland uber alles

Are you an expat living there, or are you native?

it's funny how you people know such things, yet elect a leader running on that platform


 Your grandparents did it.
2017-07-17 07:52:00 AM  
2 votes:
I can't imagine the bill for that
2017-07-18 04:35:08 AM  
1 vote:

Claude Ballse: I dunno. I had a former boss who was going through a tough time with a dying father,a stolen bike, and a nasty break-up who ended up having one of these wellness checks initiated on him. The police came out, spoke with him, and did seize his guns for his own "protection".

Now he was rather embarrassed about the whole situation. Both with how his neighbors now perceived the guy who had all those cop cars show up at his house, let alone how he might be perceived at work.

But you know what? The whole thing went down without incident. He wasnt raised as a spoiled brat who always got his way through threats of self-harm.


knew i would come across a comment like this sooner or later.  So you know a story about one person having a wellness check performed on them so that makes you an expert, obviously.  Also, since you know about one instance that means every other instance fits that exact mold and if it turns out differently for someone else then in your expert opinion they are just a spoiled brat throwing a tantrum...wel,l there are so many problems with the way you seem to think about life occurrences I should be shocked.  Unfortunately, I am not at all as this seems to be an extension of the selfish, narcissistic, and anti-social behavior displayed by entire groups of society.
2017-07-17 08:03:05 PM  
1 vote:

Cthulhu Theory: Lusiphur: It's neither cruel, not unusual, except for some strange definition of those words in not aware of. As public servants, we entrust them with a great amount of both control and freedom. Since they have more power, they should be held to a much higher standard.

Except that it is cruel and unusual. Doubling a max sentence for a crime as a minimum is exceedingly cruel and highly unusual.

doglover: Ideally, when they swear their oaths of service.That's kind of the point of oaths. You promise to do a thing, entering into a binding contract with the entity you have sworn an oath to. And the only acceptable penalty for breaking an oath is death. Otherwise it's not an oath then, is it?

Holy shiat, you're either trolling or you're batshiat insane. The oath they take is not one they swear to take upon pain of death. This is not game of thrones, and cops are not the farking night watch at castle black.

doglover: If you want to be a public servant, you have to serve the public. If you instead kill the members of the public you have sworn to serve, it's not an unusual or unreasonable request that you kill yourself or submit to execution.

Yes, it is unreasonable and unusual. If it were not we would have a long history of doing such.

doglover: And I'm not even holding them to that baseline standard of punishment we as a society laud in history and cinema. I just want cops to face the SAME laws people who are not cops face. That I assume they're guilty until proven innocent is just a heuristic I've adopted because, by the time a cop story makes the news, they usually ARE guilty.

You may want them to be beholden to the same laws as civilians, but they're simply NOT and holding them to the same laws would prevent them from doing their jobs. They would not have the ability to arrest people. They would have no means to investigate and search with warrants to find evidence of crimes. They would have no power to shoot a guy shooting up a night club in orlando. And your assumption of guilt, in addition to the prior lunacy, just speaks to your unfettered bias against them and inability to see them as people.

Public servants do not give up their rights when taking up their role. They're held to different standards. It sucks, but it is fixable.


It's not unusual, since we have a long history of punishment being scaled for your level of involvement and power. It's not cruel, because on top of your crime, you have also violated the public trust.

And if long minimum sentences for cops and politicians seem cruel and unusual, think of how they must seem for low level non-violent drug offenders.
2017-07-17 06:02:46 PM  
1 vote:

Cthulhu Theory: AckAckAck: How do we not have a "cop" tag by now.

/That shiat is farking disgusting

Because the cops didn't kill the kid?


Right, lets ignore the part of tfa where the parents BEGGED the cops to back off (deescalate) and in classic cop MO they escalated the situation.
Whatever happened to crisis negotiators? No budget? We'd rather have tanks? Gotit.
2017-07-17 05:21:14 PM  
1 vote:

Cthulhu Theory: Lusiphur: doglover: Cthulhu Theory: We could argue for days about what it would have captured

Luckily, we don't have to.

If you have body cameras, and you officially on duty, those cameras should be on.

End of story.

If the cameras were off, I can only assume the police have committed crimes. Normal citizens are innocent until proven guilty. Public servants have taken oaths the supersede that rule. Violation of the oath, ie not using body cameras when you have such cameras, is a crime in and of itself.

This, too. And I've always been a big fan of minimum sentences for public service being equal to no less than double the maximum sentence a random member of the public would be subject to. Public servants are entrusted with a lot of power, and should be held to a much higher level of responsibility.

Pretty sure that would qualify under cruel and unusual punishment. Seriously? You think that taking double the max of a normal civilian as a MINIMUM is going to float? At what point do you believe a public servant waves their constitutional rights?


It's neither cruel, not unusual, except for some strange definition of those words in not aware of. As public servants, we entrust them with a great amount of both control and freedom. Since they have more power, they should be held to a much higher standard.
2017-07-17 04:26:24 PM  
1 vote:
How do we not have a "cop" tag by now.

/That shiat is farking disgusting
2017-07-17 04:17:14 PM  
1 vote:

The Larch: Lusiphur: docpeteyJ: DarkVader: Given what we saw happen here, what the parents of the victim in your case did was the right thing to do unless they were familiar with your protocol of sending in a psychologist.

And the part of your protocol that has the police involved at all is still a problem.  There should be no police called, they shouldn't be nearby, they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the scene.

Look who didn't read my other responses.  I'll repeat it for you.

The parents lied to us because they were concealing their illegal activities, therefore we had no chance to prevent that kid's suicide.

There were no police on scene,  Just me and my partner.

If the parents had been honest with us, we would have engaged (by phone first) a specially trained hostage negotiator/psychologist as per protocol, and PD would have been staging nearby and would not have interfered unless the patient became a danger to other people.

Lusiphur:  <snipped for brevity>

No offense, but you have no idea how EMS works, especially in regards to scene safety and how we handle suicidal patients.  You made this perfectly clear with this statement:

Should the parents have told you the kid was suicidal? Probably.

Probably?  PROBABLY?  How the hell am I supposed to treat my patient accordingly if I've been purposely given blatantly incorrect medical information and a false history of the chief complain regarding the patient in question?  Wait, I know...let me put on my f*cking psychic hat. What you don't understand is that when my dispatcher sends me on a call, they provide to me as much information about the patient as the calltaker was able to glean.  Why?  So I can be prepared to TREAT THE REPORTED PROBLEM WITHOUT DELAY.

*sigh*

Good to know how little you value the lives of emergency medical personnel.

Good to know how little you value the lives of emergency medical personnel.

I'm not paid to value the lives of emergency personnel of any kind, unlike said emergency personnel. And frankly, I actually value you guys quite highly.

If I could be assured that calling 911 and saying "my child is suicidal and has a handgun" would result in a team of EMTs, a trained counselor, and a squad car parked up the block and told to stay there unless called in, I would be all about full forthright disclosure. But if giving out information, no matter how pertinent, is going to result in a significantly higher chance that I or my loved ones will get shot, then fark you. You'll get just enough to keep my family (and frankly, my neighbors, given how often cops get the house wrong) safe.

you're kind of a psychopath.


I prefer "pragmatist". Really, though, I'm not advising for wholesale slaughter of emergency personnel. Far from it. My ideal solution is that everyone gets the help they need and everyone leaves alive and happy. But that is not the world we live in, as this article makes clear. The police are more interested in protecting their own asses than helping people. And that's farked up. Not my throwaway rant on an anonymous message board.
2017-07-17 04:06:02 PM  
1 vote:

cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person


Unless you happen to get that one police officer who I read a story about that was a crisis responder that worked the golden gate bridge.  He patrolled the bridge for jumpers and managed to talk many people off the ledge... in the right direction.  But getting someone that qualified is really bad odds, so I agree, don't call the police.  Seriously, he had his dog with him, I think he would have been fine if the police never got involved.
2017-07-17 03:55:35 PM  
1 vote:
a team of 10 highly trained crisis negotiators

Maybe a bit less paramilitary training and a little bit of not killing citizens training?
2017-07-17 03:49:40 PM  
1 vote:
"The reason police shoot someone is that they fear getting shot," are sexually insecure, raisin-testicled cowards who need to murder helpless people to get their tiny, pathetic little peckers up.
2017-07-17 03:24:27 PM  
1 vote:

Cthulhu Theory: We could argue for days about what it would have captured


Luckily, we don't have to.

If you have body cameras, and you officially on duty, those cameras should be on.

End of story.

If the cameras were off, I can only assume the police have committed crimes. Normal citizens are innocent until proven guilty. Public servants have taken oaths the supersede that rule. Violation of the oath, ie not using body cameras when you have such cameras, is a crime in and of itself.
2017-07-17 02:54:57 PM  
1 vote:

Lusiphur: Good to know how little you value the lives of emergency medical personnel.

I'm not paid to value the lives of emergency personnel of any kind, unlike said emergency personnel. And frankly, I actually value you guys quite highly.


It's a good thing, too, because your attitude could result in Delay of Care and cost lives.

If I could be assured that calling 911 and saying "my child is suicidal and has a handgun" would result in a team of EMTs, a trained counselor, and a squad car parked up the block and told to stay there unless called in, I would be all about full forthright disclosure. But if giving out information, no matter how pertinent, is going to result in a significantly higher chance that I or my loved ones will get shot, then fark you. You'll get just enough to keep my family (and frankly, my neighbors, given how often cops get the house wrong) safe.

Then you are responsible when EMS personnel are delayed in giving rapid, appropriate care due to your paranoia, thereby resulting in less-than-optimal medical treatment.
2017-07-17 02:45:06 PM  
1 vote:

Cthulhu Theory: I doubt a body cam would have helped anything


It would have provided evidence for the police to "lose" when subpoenaed for the murder investigation they'd be facing in a civilized country.

Basically, American police are like M-13 at this point: A known organization of hardcore murderers you do not fark with. The difference is, M-13 type groups can still be taken down by calling the police on them. Who do you call when the cartel is the cops??
2017-07-17 02:32:22 PM  
1 vote:

burncheese: So, the ex called first, but ultimately it was the father's call that dispatched the police. Are we clear yet?


Yes.  I was clear on that the entire time, which is why I blame the father.  The ex asked for a welfare check.  Presumably, after the police initially spoke to the father, they were not going to get involved.  Then, the father went full-retard.
2017-07-17 02:29:07 PM  
1 vote:

docpeteyJ: DarkVader: Given what we saw happen here, what the parents of the victim in your case did was the right thing to do unless they were familiar with your protocol of sending in a psychologist.

And the part of your protocol that has the police involved at all is still a problem.  There should be no police called, they shouldn't be nearby, they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the scene.

Look who didn't read my other responses.  I'll repeat it for you.

The parents lied to us because they were concealing their illegal activities, therefore we had no chance to prevent that kid's suicide.

There were no police on scene,  Just me and my partner.

If the parents had been honest with us, we would have engaged (by phone first) a specially trained hostage negotiator/psychologist as per protocol, and PD would have been staging nearby and would not have interfered unless the patient became a danger to other people.

Lusiphur:  <snipped for brevity>

No offense, but you have no idea how EMS works, especially in regards to scene safety and how we handle suicidal patients.  You made this perfectly clear with this statement:

Should the parents have told you the kid was suicidal? Probably.

Probably?  PROBABLY?  How the hell am I supposed to treat my patient accordingly if I've been purposely given blatantly incorrect medical information and a false history of the chief complain regarding the patient in question?  Wait, I know...let me put on my f*cking psychic hat. What you don't understand is that when my dispatcher sends me on a call, they provide to me as much information about the patient as the calltaker was able to glean.  Why?  So I can be prepared to TREAT THE REPORTED PROBLEM WITHOUT DELAY.

*sigh*

Good to know how little you value the lives of emergency medical personnel.


Good to know how little you value the lives of emergency medical personnel.

I'm not paid to value the lives of emergency personnel of any kind, unlike said emergency personnel. And frankly, I actually value you guys quite highly.

If I could be assured that calling 911 and saying "my child is suicidal and has a handgun" would result in a team of EMTs, a trained counselor, and a squad car parked up the block and told to stay there unless called in, I would be all about full forthright disclosure. But if giving out information, no matter how pertinent, is going to result in a significantly higher chance that I or my loved ones will get shot, then fark you. You'll get just enough to keep my family (and frankly, my neighbors, given how often cops get the house wrong) safe.
2017-07-17 02:06:11 PM  
1 vote:

The Larch: Cthulhu Theory: Thingster: I'm not saying the cop or the blonde was racist.I'm saying the system has built in biases, and it's going to be this strange wrestling match between the power of cop, the power of race, and the power of dead blonde woman in the media.So take a deep breath there, dear. We're all on this ride together.

The power of the blonde woman dying may lead to the end of his career as a cop, but he absolutely will not be convicted based on his race. That's not how this works. Maybe if he were a civilian I could see this being the case, but because he is a cop and cops have protections and different rules from civilians, he will be let off.

Ah. You are talking ONLY about the criminal penalties he may face. Agreed that there are very few, if any, legal consequences.

However, the number of stories you will read in the coming months about how liberal progressives in Minneapolis are destroying America by hiring black Somali Muslim ISIS cops to murder pretty white peoples will be epic.


Of course there will, any opportunity to bang the "other guy" is jumped on because that's the world we live in now. And, honestly, it's a good thing there's a wide separation between the court of law and the court of public opinion, because we'd all be farked otherwise.
2017-07-17 01:50:13 PM  
1 vote:
His parents said he just needed to sleep. Then things police got stupid. And tragic .

FTFY Subby.

NEVER EVER call the police unless your life is in mortal danger! Can't bear to repeat this yet once again!

The policeman in modern United States are not trained to DEESCALATE situations.
They are simply trained to remove all existential threats by force. that they are very good at.
In this case they viewed their son no differently than if he was robbing a bank or mouthing off to a cop in a donut shop.
2017-07-17 01:43:38 PM  
1 vote:

Cthulhu Theory: Lusiphur: Triggered much? Last year (2016), 135 police officers were killed in the line of duty, including traffic fatalities. This year (2017) SO FAR the police have killed 523 people. I don't know where you get Tumblr it self-medicating/self-diagnosing from, other than you just have a list of Boogeyman words you spot when you're confronted by opinions you don't like, but it seems like the police have made it clear that they value their lives way above the lives of anyone else. I'm not reinforcing shiat - the police have already made it clear that they see "civilians" as the enemy, and if it keeps going, it won't be long until EMTs start seeing themselves as combat medics and carrying guns. And for the record, you're all farking civilians.

They are literally trained to treat every traffic stop as a potential life or death situation. Civilians are not "the enemy" as you put it, but potential threats to their life. There's a fundamental difference there I think you need to consider.


Which is just as, if not more, ludicrous. And the whole impetus for my rant. The life of the police officer in any interaction with a non-obvious police officer should be the least valuable party of the equation. It should go [lives of bystanders > life of person officer is interacting with > life of officer]. Period.
2017-07-17 01:43:29 PM  
1 vote:
crazy that there are still people who call the cops for help. What planet do you live on?
2017-07-17 01:40:58 PM  
1 vote:

Cthulhu Theory: Thingster: I'm not saying the cop or the blonde was racist.I'm saying the system has built in biases, and it's going to be this strange wrestling match between the power of cop, the power of race, and the power of dead blonde woman in the media.So take a deep breath there, dear. We're all on this ride together.

The power of the blonde woman dying may lead to the end of his career as a cop, but he absolutely will not be convicted based on his race. That's not how this works. Maybe if he were a civilian I could see this being the case, but because he is a cop and cops have protections and different rules from civilians, he will be let off.


Ah. You are talking ONLY about the criminal penalties he may face. Agreed that there are very few, if any, legal consequences.

However, the number of stories you will read in the coming months about how liberal progressives in Minneapolis are destroying America by hiring black Somali Muslim ISIS cops to murder pretty white peoples will be epic.
2017-07-17 01:13:56 PM  
1 vote:

Cthulhu Theory: kcfarker: Nidiot: doglover: cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person

They just shot an unarmed blonde white Australian woman in Minneapolis, after she called them for help http://www.startribune.com/woman-killed-in-officer-involved-shoot​ing-in-south-minneapolis/434782213/#1 so you have to update that advice. Skin tone is now irrelevant.

...As for the shooting itself, I'm going to hazard a guess and suggest the woman wasn't getting the response she expected from the police, got belligerent, which the passenger cop took as a threat, and shot her. I can't imagine a way in which lethal force would have been an acceptable response here unless she had a knife (she's not a gun owner ac ...


I'm going to hazard to guess that the cop/passenger fails at gun safety when it fired after he pulled it out of the holster to show her how 'big' it was.

Guy should have his trigger finger cut off so that he remembers why guns are bad.
2017-07-17 01:13:52 PM  
1 vote:

Lusiphur: Splinthar: Lusiphur: docpeteyJ: Yeah, sometimes it's the family that do really stupid things that leave you wondering just WTF they were thinking.  I'm torn on whether or not the family in TFA played a role in what I see as a completely avoidable and pointless tragedy.

Last year, my Rescue Unit was dispatched on a teenager who, the parents reported, was alone in the house and having a severe anxiety attack*.No need for PD backup.  My partner and  I responded to find a distraught 16-year old sitting on the couch with a blanket on his lap. Absolutely we were in the mindset that this was a medical call, and nothing more. We see it all the time.

Did the parents mention that he had a history of suicide attempts?  That he wasn't actually having an anxiety attack, but had called them to say he wanted to kill himself?  THAT THERE WAS A LOADED, UNSECURED FIREARM IN THE HOUSE?  Which he told his parents he was in possession of?  No, they did not**.  And considering Utah has a reputation for NOT shooting first and asking questions later, I don't think their omission of these very important facts had anything to do with fear for their child's safety from over-enthusiastic cops.  Might just have had something to do with the fact that there was a meth lab in their shed.

What the parents DID do was that they reported it was an anxiety attack, stated it was an ongoing problem with him, and which (at least here) is treated as a medical problem, not a police one.  So off we went expecting to administer the appropriate medication and transport him for observation in the ER.  No need for PD backup.

Within five minutes of our arrival, where we found an obviously distraught teenaged male sitting on the couch with a blanket in his lap, he pulled out a loaded 9mm, put it to his head, and pulled the trigger.  My partner, who is damned lucky to be alive, was less than five feet away from him at the time, although he later needed medical care to remove a chunk of the kid's skull from his ...


I am not the one calling for 100 to be injured to prevent rustling the jimmies of someone who is having a mental episode, your knee-jerk hot-take BS is the triggered typing of someone who has finally lost patience with being rational.

I said that police should have handled it better, but also that EMS and First Responders shouldn't be treated like a meat shield.  You are the one using 4.5 x differential on casualties to dehumanize not only police but all first responders.

We agree that police should absolutely not shoot people nearly as often as they do, and they should be judged for it.

We agree its tragic that people who call 911 don't get help but rather get more problems.

Where we don't agree is you thinking its ok to say that 100 first responders should be harmed before a single suffering person.

You clearly are going full binary on the situation when what is really needed is a spectrum of understanding and response.
2017-07-17 12:50:50 PM  
1 vote:

Lusiphur: Splinthar: Lusiphur: docpeteyJ: Yeah, sometimes it's the family that do really stupid things that leave you wondering just WTF they were thinking.  I'm torn on whether or not the family in TFA played a role in what I see as a completely avoidable and pointless tragedy.

Last year, my Rescue Unit was dispatched on a teenager who, the parents reported, was alone in the house and having a severe anxiety attack*.No need for PD backup.  My partner and  I responded to find a distraught 16-year old sitting on the couch with a blanket on his lap. Absolutely we were in the mindset that this was a medical call, and nothing more. We see it all the time.

Did the parents mention that he had a history of suicide attempts?  That he wasn't actually having an anxiety attack, but had called them to say he wanted to kill himself?  THAT THERE WAS A LOADED, UNSECURED FIREARM IN THE HOUSE?  Which he told his parents he was in possession of?  No, they did not**.  And considering Utah has a reputation for NOT shooting first and asking questions later, I don't think their omission of these very important facts had anything to do with fear for their child's safety from over-enthusiastic cops.  Might just have had something to do with the fact that there was a meth lab in their shed.

What the parents DID do was that they reported it was an anxiety attack, stated it was an ongoing problem with him, and which (at least here) is treated as a medical problem, not a police one.  So off we went expecting to administer the appropriate medication and transport him for observation in the ER.  No need for PD backup.

Within five minutes of our arrival, where we found an obviously distraught teenaged male sitting on the couch with a blanket in his lap, he pulled out a loaded 9mm, put it to his head, and pulled the trigger.  My partner, who is damned lucky to be alive, was less than five feet away from him at the time, although he later needed medical care to remove a chunk of the kid's skull from his face.  When I heard t ...

You really just typed that out and put it on the internet for people to see.

Look there is a whole host of ways to say that you are unhappy with the way first responders like police deal with problems, but categorically the statement:

No offense, and I'm sure you and your team are wonderful people, but I would rather see a hundred first responders shot than one innocent victim just having a tough time.

Tumblr is leaking and that septic, naive, self-medicating/diagnosing bullshiat is societally toxic.  You are a callous bigot if you think its ok to treat first-responders like meat on a 100-1 harm scenario.
Police need to follow better force-escalation guidelines but there is no need to be so cavalier with other First Responders.

Your mentality is what reinforces the believe that civilians are the enemy, because your assertion is disgusting and turned my stomach.  Please take a moment and re-evaluate that line and realize how inhumane it is.

Triggered much? Last year (2016), 135 police officers were killed in the line of duty, including traffic fatalities. This year (2017) SO FAR the police have killed 523 people. I don't know where you get Tumblr it self-medicating/self-diagnosing from, other than you just have a list of Boogeyman words you spot when you're confronted by opinions you don't like, but it seems like the police have made it clear that they value their lives way above the lives of anyone else. I'm not reinforcing shiat - the police have already made it clear that they see "civilians" as the enemy, and if it keeps going, it won't be long until EMTs start seeing themselves as combat medics and carrying guns. And for the record, you're all farking civilians. The fact that you would even think to use that word tells me exactly what kind of power-tripping asshole you are.

At the end of the day, you, as a first responder, have pledged to sacrifice your life for the life of another if it comes down to it. At that point, I don't see why the ratio matters. Especially since I'm not advocating for violence against first responders. Merely pointing out that if it came down to a choice of kill an EMT or kill a mentally handicapped man with a gun that could be talked down if he was given half a chance, the choice is a no brainer, and I would make it every time.

If that man with a gun opened for in a crowd, or even opened fire on first responders and didn't respond to de-escalation, then the opposite choice would become a no brainer. But until the is actual, immediate, and unambiguous threat to the safety of others first and the safety of responders second, the "civilian" gets priority. Every. Single. Time.


This should not be an either-or situation. An EMT is unarmed and has every right to get out of dodge.

This is not about public servants "sacrificing" themselves. It is about the police protecting the citizens and not just themselves from the citizens. They have the means, so they should have the responsibility.
2017-07-17 12:50:38 PM  
1 vote:
You, admins, why has there yet to be a green on the Australian lady getting shot?

There have been several redlinks with discussions already in them
2017-07-17 12:47:38 PM  
1 vote:

docpeteyJ: Lusiphur: No offense, and I'm sure you and your team are wonderful people, but I would rather see a hundred first responders shot than one innocent victim just having a tough time. First responders know their lives are in danger every time they come in to work. That's part of the job description.

No, it's not, at least where EMS personnel are involved.  While we do, indeed, risk our lives in order to save others, it's not a requirement that we sacrifice our safety in clearly dangerous situations.  A dead medic does no one any good. I consider sending in unarmed and unprotected medics into a house with an armed, suicidal person as stupid and irresponsible as asking them to run into a burning house with no protective gear.  I want them safe so they can continue to go about their jobs of saving people.

Three people who work as emergency EMTs, firefighters, and police officers should expect that every call they go on might be their last, and be ok with that. On the other hand, NO ONE should feel like they are putting their lives (or the lives of loved ones) at risk just by calling for help.

Very true.  Every time a call goes as stupidly bad as it did in TFA, it compromises the trust the public has in First Responders (be them cops or medics) to keep them safe.

The line at which any first responder should be allowed to prioritize their lives over the lives of any other person needs to be a bright line somewhere just on the other side of "this person has taken clear and unambiguous actions to actively try to kill myself or others." And even then, it should be a difficult choice

Did you miss the part where I explained that the parents of the victim LIED TO US about the circumstances? We went in having NO idea the patient was suicidal and armed.  If we had known, the protocol is to have PD stage nearby why a specially-trained hostage negotiator/psychologist attempts to "talk down" the patient.

Everyone wants a peaceful resolution.  But in the real world where I live, sometimes that doesn't happen, no matter how hard we try.  Damned if we do, damned if we don't.


No, it's not, at least where EMS personnel are involved. While we do, indeed, risk our lives in order to save others, it's not a requirement that we sacrifice our safety in clearly dangerous situations. A dead medic does no one any good. I consider sending in unarmed and unprotected medics into a house with an armed, suicidal person as stupid and irresponsible as asking them to run into a burning house with no protective gear. I want them safe so they can continue to go about their jobs of saving people.

Honestly, I don't want dead medics either. But again, in a situation where it's one or the other, the choice isn't difficult for me. Should the parents have told you the kid was suicidal? Probably. Should they have told you he had a gun? I wouldn't be willing to take that risk. Yes, it could end with a trained negotiator talking him down. But it's just as likely, if not more, that instead of a trained negotiator and medical care, the kid would have gotten a flashbamg, battering ram, and 10 bullets to the chest. And until those odds improve dramatically, I'm not going to change my opinion.

I'm sorry this puts you and your team at risk, I really am. That's not your fault, and you shouldn't have to bear that responsibility. But that IS the world we live in. And as long as we do, I'm going to lean heavily on the side of people being shot by guys in body armor than on the side of the guys in body armor and the people that work with them.
2017-07-17 12:34:05 PM  
1 vote:
This is what we get as a country. In which, even the Barney Fifes can get a blank check via homeland security
to buy used or unused war equipment for a podunk  sheriffs  outfit.

/armed police I get, but swat an a bearcat saying they where over-armed for the situation is to big of an understatement
2017-07-17 12:32:20 PM  
1 vote:

Aidan: bisi: Question for the EMS or other knowledgeable farkers: what is the best course of action when a person (family member, friend, whatever) is armed and threatening suicide or something similar, when you can't handle the situation by yourself but would still like them to remain un"helped" by police?

/It is still quite a leap from "person considering or talking about suicide" to "ex-person". Interesting article I read a while ago: https://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/opinionator/2013/06/02/a-simple-way-t​o-reduce-suicides/?referer=

I'm not EMS, but I date one.. :) I believe the EMS response is that they get the fark out of the way. EMS are (supposed to) protect themselves first and foremost. They are not supposed to risk their health no matter how catastrophic the situation. I'm not however sure of how many of them remember that...

I'm hoping actual EMS people have a better response, but I believe they're told (forcefully) that they must rely on the police to deal with armed patients.


As well they should.
But when the only response in the police's repertoire is to "neutralize the threat" as efficiently and quickly as possible this becomes a no-win situation.
When you have a jumper, it is often possible to talk him down or prevent him from jumping by using non lethal force. And studies show that about half the time there won't be a second attempt.
But when you start moving in on him from all directions, he will feel forced to make a decision.

Why is this so much different when the person is armed? Suicidal does not automatically equal homicidal. As evidenced by the fact, that the kid didn't go Tony Montana on the cops, even when pressured.
2017-07-17 12:22:21 PM  
1 vote:

Lusiphur: No offense, and I'm sure you and your team are wonderful people, but I would rather see a hundred first responders shot than one innocent victim just having a tough time. First responders know their lives are in danger every time they come in to work. That's part of the job description. Three people who work as emergency EMTs, firefighters, and police officers should expect that every call they go on might be their last, and be ok with that. On the other hand, NO ONE should feel like they are putting their lives (or the lives of loved ones) at risk just by calling for help. The line at which any first responder should be allowed to prioritize their lives over the lives of any other person needs to be a bright line somewhere just on the other side of "this person has taken clear and unambiguous actions to actively try to kill myself or others." And even then, it should be a difficult choice


I can see your point and other sides as well.  I work with people who are suicidal or have other major issues with rape and so and I know that my choice leads to many sorts of dangers.  I train first responders and let them know that they need to be aware when they approach any sort of situation they need to ensure that there aren't weapons handy.  Even in a situation where it's a spousal abuse situation, the victim may easily go on the attack to defend the person who attacked them.  "Don't turn your back on the victim" in a spousal situation is important.  When anger switches to anxiety the situation gets more dangerous.

In the situation docpeteyj talked about with an anxiety attack situation there is failure on the part of everyone overall especially the people who trained them.  People who are having anxiety attacks are far more dangerous overall than people who are angry.  The first thing that should have been done is to deal with the blanket on the person's lap.  I teach responders to first evaluate everything that's in close proximity to the person like heavy objects or coverings.  This is something so very incredibly basic I'm appalled that few are trained to be that situationally aware.
2017-07-17 12:17:41 PM  
1 vote:

casual disregard: What is the primary purpose of police? Beyond paperwork and investigations, it's not protecting the public. No, the primary purpose of the police is to neutralize threats. Insofar as the police are concerned, and the people who voted in a police force with that modus operandi, it can only be seen as mission accomplished.


Neutralizing a threat is a form of public protection. You seem to be under the illusion that protecting the public means they willingly sacrifice themselves for the public, where that's not the case. They're trained to protect themselves first, and by keeping themselves safe they can keep the public safe.

casual disregard: If you own guns the police will kill you if they perceive you as a threat. If you are having a mental breakdown the police will kill you if they perceive you as a threat. If you are nonwhite the police will kill you if they perceive you as a threat (if you won't listen to me, at least give Chris Rock a chance, might just save your life). Heck sometimes they even shoot white people, but they try to keep it out of the news (offer may not be valid in Zimbabwe).


The body count of whites is twice as high as blacks and as high as all non-whites combined.

casual disregard: How "duh" can we get on this? How many more times do we have to see a police killing before we simply accept it not only as reality but as the political will of the democratic republican populace? I'd bet a dollar at the casino that this victim's parents voted for the very politicians that enabled this sort of environment to emerge. But not more than a dollar. I dislike games of chance even when rigged in my favor.


This wasn't a police killing. I will agree that by now it should be common knowledge that police are literally trained to defend themselves against even perceived threats with up to lethal force. Also, at the risk of being labelled a bootlicker, cops are actually people too and people have a right to self-defense. Personally, I believe the police have way too much leeway and it needs to be reined in.
2017-07-17 12:04:43 PM  
1 vote:

bisi: Question for the EMS or other knowledgeable farkers: what is the best course of action when a person (family member, friend, whatever) is armed and threatening suicide or something similar, when you can't handle the situation by yourself but would still like them to remain un"helped" by police?

/It is still quite a leap from "person considering or talking about suicide" to "ex-person". Interesting article I read a while ago: https://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/opinionator/2013/06/02/a-simple-way-t​o-reduce-suicides/?referer=


I'm not EMS, but I date one.. :) I believe the EMS response is that they get the fark out of the way. EMS are (supposed to) protect themselves first and foremost. They are not supposed to risk their health no matter how catastrophic the situation. I'm not however sure of how many of them remember that...

I'm hoping actual EMS people have a better response, but I believe they're told (forcefully) that they must rely on the police to deal with armed patients.
2017-07-17 12:03:44 PM  
1 vote:
Everyone needs to shut up about this. You'd do the same exact thing in this situation. If your kid is in a bad place due to a conversation with an ex, has a gun and wants to be left alone, as parent there's no farking way you're going to walk away and pretend everything is alright or that he'll just sleep it off. Even without a history of mental illness, you don't know what this person is going to do. You're just not going to sit back and do nothing. What would all you arm-chair psychiatrists be saying if they did do that and the kid shot himself anyway? "Stupid parents. Should have called someone." Well they called someone. The mother tried to communicate with her son. The father tried to call for help. They were in a no win situation here. Stop blaming the parents. fark all of you who are blaming the parents on this.

If there's any blame to be placed, and I'm not saying there is or isn't, but if there is the best you can say is that the cops did not respond appropriately. Where was the counselor/specialist/whatever they're called? Why were all those cops needed for one person with a gun? At most a patrol car should have been there with a mental health professional or at the very least an officer trained in dealing with mental health issues. For farks sake. These poor people lost their son and they're being made to be the farking bad guys here. fark all of you.
2017-07-17 11:59:51 AM  
1 vote:

Ker_Thwap: ... and you pretend to know exactly how it played out?  We don't even know if the guy was aware of the full SWAT. It might have been a kindly officer (in armor), at a safe distance, trying to strategically de-escalate the situation.  While outside the multitude of pretty lights flashed.  You make it sound like the police lined him up against a wall with a firing ...

"Some wore camouflage and carried rifles. They set up bright lights to shine onto the house and drove a military-style vehicle into the backyard. Eventually, they broke seven upstairs windows so a mounted camera could look inside for Austin. "


Guess who didn't read the article?
2017-07-17 11:55:41 AM  
1 vote:

ToastmasterGeneral: Shadow Blasko: Nevercall the cops if worried about someone's mental health.

Just don't.

So who do you call?  Social services?  Guess what, potentially suicidal person with a firearm?  Social services is going to call the police.  As they should.  What if this guy had decided to kill his parents before killing himself?  Or his ex-girlfriend?

Now, none of this is to say that the police response in this case was proper.  It was horribly handled.

But at the same time, assuming that people with mental challenges and firearms will always be safe on their own is horribly misguided, too.


The events that caused this to happen were set in motion long before that day.  The kid obviously had problems and neither the parents nor the system did anything to solve them.  By the time you get the police involved, you are obviously worried about the situation escalating to the point that third parties will be harmed (and in this case, the police presence ensured that wasn't going to happen).  But to pin the blame on the authorities is misguided.  They are always going to be acting on imperfect information and it's folly to expect them to just take your word for it that "he's normally a good boy and just needs a nap."
2017-07-17 11:52:08 AM  
1 vote:

Ker_Thwap: Lusiphur: Except that a shiat ton of relatively recent research has shown that youth/adolescent suicide is much different than adult suicide, in that it is often not part of a significantly larger chain of mental health issues, and is often spontaneous and unlikely to be trusted if prevented the first time. Teenager brains aren't wired right - they're incredibly short-sighted and unstable, and can tip over from "totally ok" to "about to kill myself" in seconds, often with no real build-up or history of mental illness.

If this kid was left alone, chances are he would have gotten over it, went to therapy, and been a perfectly functional and normal adult.

Sure, sounds about right to me.  We're also dealing with age 26, with is just barely past the limit of when the male brain fully develops.  My point was more along the lines of we shouldn't treat suicide as a simple, easily solved matter.


In adult suicide? Sure. Completely agreed. In adolescent suicide? It's complicated, but not nearly as much so. Especially in a situation where there hasn't been any real sign of mental illness.

Which is not to say it should be taken lightly, but it is definitely not a matter for the police.
2017-07-17 11:50:05 AM  
1 vote:

TOSViolation: Schmerd1948: you, sir, are an idiot. A heartless idiot. It was the girlfriend who called the suicide hotline. They called the police. The mom went up to tell the boy she loved him. Does any of that sound like the parents MURDERED the son and DESERVE to blah blah blah.?
Idiot.

Read it again.  The FATHER called the police to come help.

"To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help."

The kid had asked multiple times for them to just leave him the fark alone, but the dumbasses couldn't get that through their thick skulls.



Ok, lets just all get this straight. The ex called first.
But sometime before he got there, Austin spoke by phone with his former girlfriend. He became alarmingly upset, according to his parents, and mentioned a gun. Concerned about his state of mind, the woman called police at 9:19 p.m., asking them to check on his welfare.

Then police called the house and spoke with the father.
Minutes later, a Hingham police officer called Russell Reeves at home to ask if Austin had a gun with him.

Later, the father called back.
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.

So, the ex called first, but ultimately it was the father's call that dispatched the police. Are we clear yet?
2017-07-17 11:38:58 AM  
1 vote:

Farce-Side: Barricaded Gunman: orangehat: lucksi: his name is my name too: lucksi: cman: lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more

Deutschland uber alles

Are you an expat living there, or are you native?

it's funny how you people know such things, yet elect a leader running on that platform

uh no... we people didn't, we people elected Hillary by 3 million more votes than the derp brigade.  The EC abdicated their duty and elected the demagogue which is outside of the people's control.

yeah, it's not like you have historical precedent that some peoples vote only count for 3 fifth...

 And it's not like your country has a precedent for counting the voting populous as negative 6 million.

Let me guess: you're one of those banal American sh*t-heels who meets Europeans and says "Do you speak German? No? You're welcome." as if you personally stormed the beach at Normandy.

Stop trying to distract from America's enormous current shame by reflexively babbling half-remembered history from 75 years ago. In your own way, you people are every bit as embarrassing as Trump.

So reflexively babbling history from 75 years ago isn't a proper response to reflexively babbling history from 150 years ago?


No.
2017-07-17 11:26:24 AM  
1 vote:

Nidiot: doglover: cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person

Or ever, really.

The only reason you should call the police is to kill negros. That's not what police are supposed to be, just what they've become. If you need negros murdered, call the police. If you need ANYTHING else, call someone else.

Also if you are black , or even have a heavy tan, and the police show up... GET THE HELL OUTTA THERE!

They just shot an unarmed blonde white Australian woman in Minneapolis, after she called them for help http://www.startribune.com/woman-killed-in-officer-involved-shoot​ing-in-south-minneapolis/434782213/#1 so you have to update that advice. Skin tone is now irrelevant.

Don't call the police unless you want someone shot.


Their body cams not turned on and they could have used a taser.

I'm glad I moved away from the big cities the way things are getting in the USA.  Here, where i'm at now, it's so very rare that an officer even makes a move for a gun (even resting a hand on it is rare and odd) that other cops will notice and take the rookie/cop-new-to-area to the side and have a chat.  I've personally seen it happen twice where a cop has had a hand hovering over their gun and been taken out of the situation by another officer.

Of course, we have our fair share of asshole police just like we have our fair share of asshole people overall, but at least we know we're not risking getting shot unless we're doing something that's an immediate serious danger to others.
2017-07-17 11:10:18 AM  
1 vote:
It would be helpful to know exactly what the ex-girlfriend told police, because it sounds like the father had the right idea about not escalating the situation, maybe the ex got the police all riled up with talk about guns & suicide on purpose?
2017-07-17 11:08:26 AM  
1 vote:

IRQ12: docpeteyJ: It's important to the safety of my crew.

I think you are nearing identifying the problem.

Nearly all of these recent senseless killings are at the center of 'officer safety'.  Think he is going for a gun may as well shoot him because god forbid he could be clint eastwood and quick draw you down (even though you are already senselessly brandishing and violating the law)


You either have some really strange EMTs where you're from or have no clue who you're talking to despite having a detailed explanation and description in the post that started this digression.
2017-07-17 11:00:48 AM  
1 vote:

docpeteyJ: It's important to the safety of my crew.


I think you are nearing identifying the problem.

Nearly all of these recent senseless killings are at the center of 'officer safety'.  Think he is going for a gun may as well shoot him because god forbid he could be clint eastwood and quick draw you down (even though you are already senselessly brandishing and violating the law)
2017-07-17 10:55:29 AM  
1 vote:

dready zim: "Please," the frightened father says he asked them, "why can't you just let him go to sleep?"

Because they are trained to escalate the situation until the person they are dealing with complies or dies.

There is no middle ground.

Also if you knew your son might kill themselves if backed into a corner, why did you engineer them being backed into a corner instead of just letting them sleep?

Why didn't you just let him go to sleep instead of calling the police?

Now you will have that guilt for the rest of your life.


A lot of people are out of touch about there not being a middle ground.

Besides in the movies, how often has SWAT backed down when asked to by a civilian familiar with the situation?
2017-07-17 10:51:30 AM  
1 vote:

LowbrowDeluxe: ToastmasterGeneral: Shadow Blasko: Nevercall the cops if worried about someone's mental health.

Just don't.

So who do you call?  Social services?  Guess what, potentially suicidal person with a firearm?  Social services is going to call the police.  As they should.  What if this guy had decided to kill his parents before killing himself?  Or his ex-girlfriend?

Now, none of this is to say that the police response in this case was proper.  It was horribly handled.

But at the same time, assuming that people with mental challenges and firearms will always be safe on their own is horribly misguided, too.

My, god, what if he developed psychic powers and went all Carrie and killed everyone in the neighborhood?!?


img.fark.net
2017-07-17 10:50:18 AM  
1 vote:

ToastmasterGeneral: LowbrowDeluxe: ToastmasterGeneral: Shadow Blasko: Nevercall the cops if worried about someone's mental health.

Just don't.

So who do you call?  Social services?  Guess what, potentially suicidal person with a firearm?  Social services is going to call the police.  As they should.  What if this guy had decided to kill his parents before killing himself?  Or his ex-girlfriend?

Now, none of this is to say that the police response in this case was proper.  It was horribly handled.

But at the same time, assuming that people with mental challenges and firearms will always be safe on their own is horribly misguided, too.

My, god, what if he developed psychic powers and went all Carrie and killed everyone in the neighborhood?!?

If you're going for the ludicrousness award, then congrats.

Otherwise, do you have a thought as to what should happen when a person with mental challenges and a firearm indicates that they're having problems?


At that point it is too late, the thing that could save them is more sensible restrictions on gun use, storage and licensing. One thing that sensible people would like is to not let people with mental challenges have access to firearms.
2017-07-17 10:46:35 AM  
1 vote:
This could have all been easily avoided if his parents had only taught him how to exercise his white and/or class privilege.
2017-07-17 10:26:15 AM  
1 vote:
WTF are cops protecting us from and how can they do it when cowardice, self-protection and elitism are their modus operandi?  After-the-fact clean up is so much safer than calling them to try to prevent a tragedy.  They don't know how to prevent tragedy.
2017-07-17 10:24:15 AM  
1 vote:
If you have a problem and call police, you now have two problems.
2017-07-17 10:23:47 AM  
1 vote:

DarkVader: TOSViolation: cpubus: "Don't back me into a corner," his father remembers Austin saying. "Because I'll make it go away in four seconds."
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.

So the meaning was clear... yet he calls the police.

In the hall upstairs, Austin's mother spoke to him through his locked bedroom door. "Whatever's happening," Kate Harrison says she called to her son, "I love you, and we can work it out."

Then immediately start pestering him.
I get the feeling they never actually leave him the fark alone

The parents basically murdered him.  He told them to just leave him the fark alone, so the farkwads call the police.  His parents DESERVE to live the rest of their lives with guilt and pain over his death that they caused.

This.

If you don't know by now that calling the cops on someone you care about has a good chance of resulting in that person's death, you're an idiot who hasn't been paying attention.

DO NOT CALL THE COPS.


You should not put that on the parents, though.
Is it the parents' fault for forgetting in this stressful situation where they really needed help, that... oh yeah, the police are murdering innocent people now and probably won't deal with any of that "negotiation" or "talking down" bullshiat.
2017-07-17 10:23:03 AM  
1 vote:

cman: Keyser_Soze_Death: cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person

Fixed.

If someone was trying to break into my place, I'm gonna call the cops. They do have their uses even tho many of them can be assholes.


Unless you're not home, that's a really bad idea.  They've been known to kill the person who called in a burglary.
2017-07-17 10:21:30 AM  
1 vote:

Fark Against the Machine: Hello, 911? My son has locked himself in his room, and I just want to make sure he's alright. ...Yes, very depressed. Girl troubles, you know.... Yes, he did make some vague threats...  Well, he has his 9mm pistol... No, just a pit bull... Sounds to me like he just needs to sleep it off, I just wanted to let you all know!


"Ckshhhhhck. Constable Smith, Mortar Platoon - 2 rounds, high explosive to coordinates N22.0023  W17.02765 - Try to hit the bedroom. FIRE. Ckshhhhhhck."
2017-07-17 10:15:16 AM  
1 vote:

TOSViolation: cpubus: "Don't back me into a corner," his father remembers Austin saying. "Because I'll make it go away in four seconds."
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.

So the meaning was clear... yet he calls the police.

In the hall upstairs, Austin's mother spoke to him through his locked bedroom door. "Whatever's happening," Kate Harrison says she called to her son, "I love you, and we can work it out."

Then immediately start pestering him.
I get the feeling they never actually leave him the fark alone

The parents basically murdered him.  He told them to just leave him the fark alone, so the farkwads call the police.  His parents DESERVE to live the rest of their lives with guilt and pain over his death that they caused.


This.

If you don't know by now that calling the cops on someone you care about has a good chance of resulting in that person's death, you're an idiot who hasn't been paying attention.

DO NOT CALL THE COPS.
2017-07-17 10:07:22 AM  
1 vote:
ONLY call the cops if required to do so for an insurance claim. They are not there to help.
2017-07-17 09:49:34 AM  
1 vote:

susler: LowbrowDeluxe: That...seems like a disproportionate response regardless of the parents suggestion.

They've got all this high end military gear that they never get to use.   When the opportunity to suit up comes, they go full hog.


More importantly, an opportunity that is very low risk for them.  When the risk is high, they actually take a more cautious approach.
2017-07-17 09:43:12 AM  
1 vote:

lucksi: his name is my name too: lucksi: cman: lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more

Deutschland uber alles

Are you an expat living there, or are you native?

it's funny how you people know such things, yet elect a leader running on that platform

uh no... we people didn't, we people elected Hillary by 3 million more votes than the derp brigade.  The EC abdicated their duty and elected the demagogue which is outside of the people's control.

yeah, it's not like you have historical precedent that some peoples vote only count for 3 fifth...


Luckily for you, Germany has a completely clean historical record, so you are free to judge.
2017-07-17 09:40:22 AM  
1 vote:

Shadow Blasko: Nevercall the cops if worried about someone's mental health.

Just don't.


So who do you call?  Social services?  Guess what, potentially suicidal person with a firearm?  Social services is going to call the police.  As they should.  What if this guy had decided to kill his parents before killing himself?  Or his ex-girlfriend?

Now, none of this is to say that the police response in this case was proper.  It was horribly handled.

But at the same time, assuming that people with mental challenges and firearms will always be safe on their own is horribly misguided, too.
2017-07-17 09:36:11 AM  
1 vote:

Claude Ballse: I dunno. I had a former boss who was going through a tough time with a dying father,a stolen bike, and a nasty break-up who ended up having one of these wellness checks initiated on him. The police came out, spoke with him, and did seize his guns for his own "protection".

Now he was rather embarrassed about the whole situation. Both with how his neighbors now perceived the guy who had all those cop cars show up at his house, let alone how he might be perceived at work.

But you know what? The whole thing went down without incident. He wasnt raised as a spoiled brat who always got his way through threats of self-harm.


I'm betting he was also as white as a sheet, amirite?
2017-07-17 09:30:49 AM  
1 vote:

Ker_Thwap: webron: Ker_Thwap: Schmerd1948: Ker_Thwap: My first thought would be to call a suicide prevention hotline, unless of course I suspected that my child with the gun was likely to take out a few other people including myself, neighbors, ex girlfriends, etc.; at which point the responsible thing would be to call the police.

  So, the parents are fearful for their own lives, and the police aren't allowed to be fearful for their own lives and take precautions like wearing body armor?  The parents just expected a Hollywood ending where a kindly old police officer takes off the vest, risks his/her own life and smoothly says the perfect words, that perfectly penetrate the angst of the would be suicide.

The guy shot himself, there's very little the police could have done to prevent that.  No one else got shot, that's a positive outcome.

They armored vehicle was a nice touch. And the multiple town-forces.
You really don't think they over-reacted?

My then wife passed out and thumped to the floor one night.  I called 911.  Within 10 minutes there were 30 local volunteer firemen cluttering up my house, clogging the parking spaces, so that by the time the ambulance arrived, it had no where to park.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯   Responders get bored.  At worst, it was a giant waste of funding.

So, yes.  You're right, it does seem to be an over-reaction.  Better than an under-reaction, where innocents got killed as well.  Did the over-reaction directly lead to the suicide? Dubious.  There was a massive life long chain of events that led to the suicide.  It's a complex issue, and it's a bit insensitive to pretend it's a single issue concern that can be solved with a snap of the fingers and a few magic words in every case.

Seriously, you don't think that being surrounded by an army has any effect on this guy pulling the trigger?  That is shockingly naive.

It might have.  It might have kept him alive for an extra ten minutes while he checked out the cool tank.

They guy had 26 years of life, of ...


FTFA: "... carpe diem, seize the day - was tattooed in artful letters on his chest. His dog, Faith..." - Yeah, there definitely was some build up to this.
But a police seige ist not the best course of action for a person threatening suicide.
2017-07-17 09:23:18 AM  
1 vote:

webron: Ker_Thwap: Schmerd1948: Ker_Thwap: My first thought would be to call a suicide prevention hotline, unless of course I suspected that my child with the gun was likely to take out a few other people including myself, neighbors, ex girlfriends, etc.; at which point the responsible thing would be to call the police.

  So, the parents are fearful for their own lives, and the police aren't allowed to be fearful for their own lives and take precautions like wearing body armor?  The parents just expected a Hollywood ending where a kindly old police officer takes off the vest, risks his/her own life and smoothly says the perfect words, that perfectly penetrate the angst of the would be suicide.

The guy shot himself, there's very little the police could have done to prevent that.  No one else got shot, that's a positive outcome.

They armored vehicle was a nice touch. And the multiple town-forces.
You really don't think they over-reacted?

My then wife passed out and thumped to the floor one night.  I called 911.  Within 10 minutes there were 30 local volunteer firemen cluttering up my house, clogging the parking spaces, so that by the time the ambulance arrived, it had no where to park.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯   Responders get bored.  At worst, it was a giant waste of funding.

So, yes.  You're right, it does seem to be an over-reaction.  Better than an under-reaction, where innocents got killed as well.  Did the over-reaction directly lead to the suicide? Dubious.  There was a massive life long chain of events that led to the suicide.  It's a complex issue, and it's a bit insensitive to pretend it's a single issue concern that can be solved with a snap of the fingers and a few magic words in every case.

Seriously, you don't think that being surrounded by an army has any effect on this guy pulling the trigger?  That is shockingly naive.


It might have.  It might have kept him alive for an extra ten minutes while he checked out the cool tank.

They guy had 26 years of life, of causal events that led up to his suicide.  It's kind of silly to imagine that only the events in the last hours of his life were what caused him to pull the trigger.  Talk about shockingly naive.
2017-07-17 09:06:30 AM  
1 vote:

gar1013: Nidiot: cpubus: "Don't back me into a corner," his father remembers Austin saying. "Because I'll make it go away in four seconds."
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.

So the meaning was clear... yet he calls the police.

In the hall upstairs, Austin's mother spoke to him through his locked bedroom door. "Whatever's happening," Kate Harrison says she called to her son, "I love you, and we can work it out."

Then immediately start pestering him.
I get the feeling they never actually leave him the fark alone

Yeah. Thanks Mom and Dad, you sure handled that well. Of course you wont see how you contributed to the death of your own son there at all.

Seems like you are letting the ex-girlfriend off the hook.

She's really to blame because she's the one who called the police in the first place.

Maybe if she had simply let him get on with life, rather than trying to make herself feel better through maintaining contact (and essentially ripping his scabs off) this wouldn't have happened.


No one seems to be terribly clear on who, or how many people called for the police, which is fair enough, the article was an epic that was longer than War and Peace.

I blame everyone who called the police instead of letting the poor dude just chill out a bit on his own like he asked.

The police just did what they usually do. Don't call them unless you want something or someone shot.
2017-07-17 09:04:20 AM  
1 vote:

Schmerd1948: Ker_Thwap: My first thought would be to call a suicide prevention hotline, unless of course I suspected that my child with the gun was likely to take out a few other people including myself, neighbors, ex girlfriends, etc.; at which point the responsible thing would be to call the police.

  So, the parents are fearful for their own lives, and the police aren't allowed to be fearful for their own lives and take precautions like wearing body armor?  The parents just expected a Hollywood ending where a kindly old police officer takes off the vest, risks his/her own life and smoothly says the perfect words, that perfectly penetrate the angst of the would be suicide.

The guy shot himself, there's very little the police could have done to prevent that.  No one else got shot, that's a positive outcome.

They armored vehicle was a nice touch. And the multiple town-forces.
You really don't think they over-reacted?


If they have the toys, they want to use them.  Imagine having a tank in your garage.  It's just sitting there for an emergency. You don't really need it, but you have it anyway.  If you get an excuse to use it, no matter how thin, you will.
2017-07-17 09:02:26 AM  
1 vote:

webron: It's fun to blame the guy and his parents and not the police, who decided to pretend to be Rambo for no good reason


More like the Waffen-SS.  Talk about a disproportionate response...
2017-07-17 08:59:32 AM  
1 vote:

lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more


Things like this have happened in Germany as well even if the cops here are generally less trigger happy.. Don't forget the Tennessee Eisenberg