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(MSN)   His parents said he just needed to sleep. Then things got stupid. And tragic   ( msn.com) divider line
    More: Misc, police, Constable, Austin, Russell Reeves, hingham police, SWAT team, hingham police chief, Austin's parents  
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17822 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Jul 2017 at 6:59 AM (13 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-07-17 01:14:03 PM  

Cthulhu Theory: Thingster: Cubicle Jockey: So they think have identified the Minnesota cop who killed the Australian.
http://kstp.com/news/mohamed-noor-officer-involved-shooting-justine-di​amond-fatal-minneapolis-shooting/4544324/#.WWzXWMZhnM0.twitter

So it's like a bizzarro world version of the usual police shooting.

They always ID the scary brown guy. Always.

But here's the issue now: the guy doesn't get fired and charged and all everyone will be up in arms because dead blonde.

If he gets charged and convicted, then it's going to be racism since the brown guy was charged for killing the blonde woman when white cops are rarely charged for shooting brown men.

This is the case needed to really bring accountability to police shootings, but I can't wait for the cognitive dissonance over the potential for accountability for police shooting of brown men might come from the shooting of a white woman by a brown man.

This is the stupidest race baiting bullshiat I've seen in a while. The cop(s) will probably claim they thought she was reaching for a weapon and get away with a slap on the wrist. Race is an irrelevant factor here unless you're a racist POS.


It isn't race baiting. I'm not saying it's right, or the way it should be.  I'm saying that's how it's going to play out since race has everything to do with who gets in trouble for what in cases like this.

I'm speaking to reality, not idealism.
 
2017-07-17 01:16:18 PM  

kcfarker: Cthulhu Theory: kcfarker: Nidiot: doglover: cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person

They just shot an unarmed blonde white Australian woman in Minneapolis, after she called them for help http://www.startribune.com/woman-killed-in-officer-involved-shoot​ing-in-south-minneapolis/434782213/#1 so you have to update that advice. Skin tone is now irrelevant.

...As for the shooting itself, I'm going to hazard a guess and suggest the woman wasn't getting the response she expected from the police, got belligerent, which the passenger cop took as a threat, and shot her. I can't imagine a way in which lethal force would have been an acceptable response here unless she had a knife (she's not a gun owner ac ...

I'm going to hazard to guess that the cop/passenger fails at gun safety when it fired after he pulled it out of the holster to show her how 'big' it was.

Guy should have his trigger finger cut off so that he remembers why guns are bad.


My, what the imagination you have.
 
2017-07-17 01:19:16 PM  

Cthulhu Theory: bisi: Cthulhu Theory: Lusiphur: Triggered much? Last year (2016), 135 police officers were killed in the line of duty, including traffic fatalities. This year (2017) SO FAR the police have killed 523 people. I don't know where you get Tumblr it self-medicating/self-diagnosing from, other than you just have a list of Boogeyman words you spot when you're confronted by opinions you don't like, but it seems like the police have made it clear that they value their lives way above the lives of anyone else. I'm not reinforcing shiat - the police have already made it clear that they see "civilians" as the enemy, and if it keeps going, it won't be long until EMTs start seeing themselves as combat medics and carrying guns. And for the record, you're all farking civilians.

They are literally trained to treat every traffic stop as a potential life or death situation. Civilians are not "the enemy" as you put it, but potential threats to their life. There's a fundamental difference there I think you need to consider.

Occupational hazard. Do cops not know that going in?
At what point does it start to become self serving?

Of course they know it going in, they're trained to know it, expect it, and predict it so they can mitigate the threat before it injures someone else. Clearly it's flawed because we have way too many unarmed people being shot.

But what do you mean by self-serving?


Self serving in the sense that their own protection from any, even perceived, threats is valued higher than the life of a possibly innocent person.
 
2017-07-17 01:19:51 PM  

Thingster: Cthulhu Theory: Thingster: Cubicle Jockey: So they think have identified the Minnesota cop who killed the Australian.
http://kstp.com/news/mohamed-noor-officer-involved-shooting-justine-di​amond-fatal-minneapolis-shooting/4544324/#.WWzXWMZhnM0.twitter

So it's like a bizzarro world version of the usual police shooting.

They always ID the scary brown guy. Always.

But here's the issue now: the guy doesn't get fired and charged and all everyone will be up in arms because dead blonde.

If he gets charged and convicted, then it's going to be racism since the brown guy was charged for killing the blonde woman when white cops are rarely charged for shooting brown men.

This is the case needed to really bring accountability to police shootings, but I can't wait for the cognitive dissonance over the potential for accountability for police shooting of brown men might come from the shooting of a white woman by a brown man.

This is the stupidest race baiting bullshiat I've seen in a while. The cop(s) will probably claim they thought she was reaching for a weapon and get away with a slap on the wrist. Race is an irrelevant factor here unless you're a racist POS.

It isn't race baiting. I'm not saying it's right, or the way it should be.  I'm saying that's how it's going to play out since race has everything to do with who gets in trouble for what in cases like this.

I'm speaking to reality, not idealism.


I'll take you and everyone else up on this bet that he's gonna get in trouble because he's not white. He won't. Because he's a cop. Race only factors into it when assholes like you try to shove the narrative down people's throats. I will add a qualifying aspect to this though, if it turns out the guy shot her because he hates white women or she was slinging racial slurs at him, then I'll shut up about the race card being played. But until we get more information, I'm going to argue that it needs to be kept off the GD table because it has 0 place for it right now.
 
2017-07-17 01:23:12 PM  

bisi: Lusiphur: Splintar: Lusiphur: docpeteyJ: Yeah, sometimes it's the family that do really stupid things that leave you wondering just WTF they were thinking.  I'm torn on whether or not the family in TFA played a role in what I see as a completely avoidable and pointless tragedy.

Last year, my Rescue Unit was dispatched on a teenager who, the parents reported, was alone in the house and having a severe anxiety attack*.No need for PD backup.  My partner and  I responded to find a distraught 16-year old sitting on the couch with a blanket on his lap. Absolutely we were in the mindset that this was a medical call, and nothing more. We see it all the time.

Did the parents mention that he had a history of suicide attempts?  That he wasn't actually having an anxiety attack, but had called them to say he wanted to kill himself?  THAT THERE WAS A LOADED, UNSECURED FIREARM IN THE HOUSE?  Which he told his parents he was in possession of?  No, they did not**.  And considering Utah has a reputation for NOT shooting first and asking questions later, I don't think their omission of these very important facts had anything to do with fear for their child's safety from over-enthusiastic cops.  Might just have had something to do with the fact that there was a meth lab in their shed.

What the parents DID do was that they reported it was an anxiety attack, stated it was an ongoing problem with him, and which (at least here) is treated as a medical problem, not a police one.  So off we went expecting to administer the appropriate medication and transport him for observation in the ER.  No need for PD backup.

Within five minutes of our arrival, where we found an obviously distraught teenaged male sitting on the couch with a blanket in his lap, he pulled out a loaded 9mm, put it to his head, and pulled the trigger.  My partner, who is damned lucky to be alive, was less than five feet away from him at the time, although he later needed medical care to remove a chunk of the kid's skull from his face.  When I heard t ...

You really just typed that out and put it on the internet for people to see.

Look there is a whole host of ways to say that you are unhappy with the way first responders like police deal with problems, but categorically the statement:

No offense, and I'm sure you and your team are wonderful people, but I would rather see a hundred first responders shot than one innocent victim just having a tough time.

Tumblr is leaking and that septic, naive, self-medicating/diagnosing bullshiat is societally toxic.  You are a callous bigot if you think its ok to treat first-responders like meat on a 100-1 harm scenario.
Police need to follow better force-escalation guidelines but there is no need to be so cavalier with other First Responders.

Your mentality is what reinforces the believe that civilians are the enemy, because your assertion is disgusting and turned my stomach.  Please take a moment and re-evaluate that line and realize how inhumane it is.

Triggered much? Last year (2016), 135 police officers were killed in the line of duty, including traffic fatalities. This year (2017) SO FAR the police have killed 523 people. I don't know where you get Tumblr it self-medicating/self-diagnosing from, other than you just have a list of Boogeyman words you spot when you're confronted by opinions you don't like, but it seems like the police have made it clear that they value their lives way above the lives of anyone else. I'm not reinforcing shiat - the police have already made it clear that they see "civilians" as the enemy, and if it keeps going, it won't be long until EMTs start seeing themselves as combat medics and carrying guns. And for the record, you're all farking civilians. The fact that you would even think to use that word tells me exactly what kind of power-tripping asshole you are.

At the end of the day, you, as a first responder, have pledged to sacrifice your life for the life of another if it comes down to it. At that point, I don't see why the ratio matters. Especially since I'm not advocating for violence against first responders. Merely pointing out that if it came down to a choice of kill an EMT or kill a mentally handicapped man with a gun that could be talked down if he was given half a chance, the choice is a no brainer, and I would make it every time.

If that man with a gun opened for in a crowd, or even opened fire on first responders and didn't respond to de-escalation, then the opposite choice would become a no brainer. But until the is actual, immediate, and unambiguous threat to the safety of others first and the safety of responders second, the "civilian" gets priority. Every. Single. Time.

This should not be an either-or situation. An EMT is unarmed and has every right to get out of dodge.

This is not about public servants "sacrificing" themselves. It is about the police protecting the citizens and not just themselves from the citizens. They have the means, so they should have the responsibility.


It shouldn't be an either-or situation, and it's farked up that it is, but it is. Seriously, 523 people shot and killed by police this year so far. We're barely halfway done. And that's just direct violence by the police, using guns. It doesn't count people tazed to death, or that infant girl a few years back killed in her crib by a flash bang when the cops raided the wrong house, or victims of shooters that may have been talked down if the situation wasn't escalated, or any of a number of other factors.

By the time this year is done, we will be at over a 10:1 ratio of people killed by police vs. police officers dying (in total, including ALL causes like traffic accidents, heart attacks, trips and falls, etc., only 135 police officers died "in the line of duty" last year). As long as that's the world we live in, I will continue to set my expectations accordingly.

And the sad thing is, it's not like the police don't know how to train in deescalation. They've already done so successfully with car chases. It used to be if you were chased by the cops, you were as likely to die as not. Then, most police departments explicitly changed their procedure to NOT engage in high-speed chases and instead follow at a safe distance and use helicopters to spot and monitor. As a result, motor vehicle deaths related to police pursuit dropped precipitously.
 
2017-07-17 01:27:34 PM  

Cthulhu Theory: Thingster: Cthulhu Theory: Thingster: Cubicle Jockey: So they think have identified the Minnesota cop who killed the Australian.
http://kstp.com/news/mohamed-noor-officer-involved-shooting-justine-di​amond-fatal-minneapolis-shooting/4544324/#.WWzXWMZhnM0.twitter

So it's like a bizzarro world version of the usual police shooting.

They always ID the scary brown guy. Always.

But here's the issue now: the guy doesn't get fired and charged and all everyone will be up in arms because dead blonde.

If he gets charged and convicted, then it's going to be racism since the brown guy was charged for killing the blonde woman when white cops are rarely charged for shooting brown men.

This is the case needed to really bring accountability to police shootings, but I can't wait for the cognitive dissonance over the potential for accountability for police shooting of brown men might come from the shooting of a white woman by a brown man.

This is the stupidest race baiting bullshiat I've seen in a while. The cop(s) will probably claim they thought she was reaching for a weapon and get away with a slap on the wrist. Race is an irrelevant factor here unless you're a racist POS.

It isn't race baiting. I'm not saying it's right, or the way it should be.  I'm saying that's how it's going to play out since race has everything to do with who gets in trouble for what in cases like this.

I'm speaking to reality, not idealism.

I'll take you and everyone else up on this bet that he's gonna get in trouble because he's not white. He won't. Because he's a cop. Race only factors into it when assholes like you try to shove the narrative down people's throats. I will add a qualifying aspect to this though, if it turns out the guy shot her because he hates white women or she was slinging racial slurs at him, then I'll shut up about the race card being played. But until we get more information, I'm going to argue that it needs to be kept off the GD table because it has 0 place for it right now.


I'm not saying the cop or the blonde was racist.

I'm saying the system has built in biases, and it's going to be this strange wrestling match between the power of cop, the power of race, and the power of dead blonde woman in the media.

So take a deep breath there, dear. We're all on this ride together.
 
2017-07-17 01:29:57 PM  

bisi: Cthulhu Theory: bisi: Cthulhu Theory: Lusiphur: Triggered much? Last year (2016), 135 police officers were killed in the line of duty, including traffic fatalities. This year (2017) SO FAR the police have killed 523 people. I don't know where you get Tumblr it self-medicating/self-diagnosing from, other than you just have a list of Boogeyman words you spot when you're confronted by opinions you don't like, but it seems like the police have made it clear that they value their lives way above the lives of anyone else. I'm not reinforcing shiat - the police have already made it clear that they see "civilians" as the enemy, and if it keeps going, it won't be long until EMTs start seeing themselves as combat medics and carrying guns. And for the record, you're all farking civilians.

They are literally trained to treat every traffic stop as a potential life or death situation. Civilians are not "the enemy" as you put it, but potential threats to their life. There's a fundamental difference there I think you need to consider.

Occupational hazard. Do cops not know that going in?
At what point does it start to become self serving?

Of course they know it going in, they're trained to know it, expect it, and predict it so they can mitigate the threat before it injures someone else. Clearly it's flawed because we have way too many unarmed people being shot.

But what do you mean by self-serving?

Self serving in the sense that their own protection from any, even perceived, threats is valued higher than the life of a possibly innocent person.


Sounds like you have an overly romanticized view of the police. I'll say it as many times as I need to. If you're the reason the police are there, they will prioritize their life over yours every time. Every move you make is scrutinized as a potential threat. You are a potential threat until they have you patted down and cuffed.

They're trained to suspect that at any point, even unarmed, you can turn the routine stop into a life or death situation by going for their own gun and shooting them, grabbing their own unseen weapon, or even directly assaulting them, or any other number of methods. Pretty much, unless you're a passerby, you're considered a viable threat and they have a right, if not a duty, to protect their lives from you regardless of whether or not you're an actual threat.
 
2017-07-17 01:32:58 PM  
"Please," the frightened father says he asked them, "why can't you just let him go to sleep?"

They kind of did. He took a dirt nap.
 
2017-07-17 01:34:31 PM  

Thingster: I'm not saying the cop or the blonde was racist.I'm saying the system has built in biases, and it's going to be this strange wrestling match between the power of cop, the power of race, and the power of dead blonde woman in the media.So take a deep breath there, dear. We're all on this ride together.


The power of the blonde woman dying may lead to the end of his career as a cop, but he absolutely will not be convicted based on his race. That's not how this works. Maybe if he were a civilian I could see this being the case, but because he is a cop and cops have protections and different rules from civilians, he will be let off.
 
2017-07-17 01:36:50 PM  

Cthulhu Theory: Thingster: Cthulhu Theory: Thingster: Cubicle Jockey: So they think have identified the Minnesota cop who killed the Australian.
http://kstp.com/news/mohamed-noor-officer-involved-shooting-justine-di​amond-fatal-minneapolis-shooting/4544324/#.WWzXWMZhnM0.twitter

So it's like a bizzarro world version of the usual police shooting.

They always ID the scary brown guy. Always.

But here's the issue now: the guy doesn't get fired and charged and all everyone will be up in arms because dead blonde.

If he gets charged and convicted, then it's going to be racism since the brown guy was charged for killing the blonde woman when white cops are rarely charged for shooting brown men.

This is the case needed to really bring accountability to police shootings, but I can't wait for the cognitive dissonance over the potential for accountability for police shooting of brown men might come from the shooting of a white woman by a brown man.

This is the stupidest race baiting bullshiat I've seen in a while. The cop(s) will probably claim they thought she was reaching for a weapon and get away with a slap on the wrist. Race is an irrelevant factor here unless you're a racist POS.

It isn't race baiting. I'm not saying it's right, or the way it should be.  I'm saying that's how it's going to play out since race has everything to do with who gets in trouble for what in cases like this.

I'm speaking to reality, not idealism.

I'll take you and everyone else up on this bet that he's gonna get in trouble because he's not white. He won't. Because he's a cop. Race only factors into it when assholes like you try to shove the narrative down people's throats. I will add a qualifying aspect to this though, if it turns out the guy shot her because he hates white women or she was slinging racial slurs at him, then I'll shut up about the race card being played. But until we get more information, I'm going to argue that it needs to be kept off the GD table because it has 0 place for it right now.


Are you saying race won't be a factor in the public reaction to this? Because if so, you're completely, totally, 100% wrong.

Or are you acknowledging that there will be an outcry from racists who will demand that the black Muslim Somali immigrant who shot the pretty white woman should be in prison, and are you saying you're prepared to see the innumerable stories on right wing blogs about how liberal Minneapolis leftists want to murdee pretty white blond people with their progressive ISIS police force. But you believe those stories won't influence the outcome of the investigation?
 
2017-07-17 01:39:08 PM  

Lusiphur: And the sad thing is, it's not like the police don't know how to train in deescalation. They've already done so successfully with car chases. It used to be if you were chased by the cops, you were as likely to die as not. Then, most police departments explicitly changed their procedure to NOT engage in high-speed chases and instead follow at a safe distance and use helicopters to spot and monitor. As a result, motor vehicle deaths related to police pursuit dropped precipitously.


Actually, they're generally NOT trained in de-escalation. At least not on in-person confrontations. Vehicular pursuits are a whole other thing. Most states don't require de-escalation training last I checked, though many jurisdictions I believe are starting to.
 
2017-07-17 01:40:48 PM  

bisi: Question for the EMS or other knowledgeable farkers: what is the best course of action when a person (family member, friend, whatever) is armed and threatening suicide or something similar, when you can't handle the situation by yourself but would still like them to remain un"helped" by police?

/It is still quite a leap from "person considering or talking about suicide" to "ex-person". Interesting article I read a while ago: https://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/opinionator/2013/06/02/a-simple-way-t​o-reduce-suicides/?referer=


That was really interesting. FTA:
Why haven't we seen more blister packages? One reason is money. Manufacturers would have to redesign packaging, and the blister packaging would cost more compared with loose pills in a bottle.

The thing here is that it's a matter who's paying for what. Yes, it would cost suppliers and therefore consumers more for the blister packs. But, it would cost society (whether by taxes, insurance premiums, whatever) less in terms of emergency services - 911 dispatchers, poison control, EMS, police, grief councilors, etc.

/no idea how much these things would balance each other out
//maybe there was some sort of cost analysis in the study
 
2017-07-17 01:40:58 PM  

Cthulhu Theory: Thingster: I'm not saying the cop or the blonde was racist.I'm saying the system has built in biases, and it's going to be this strange wrestling match between the power of cop, the power of race, and the power of dead blonde woman in the media.So take a deep breath there, dear. We're all on this ride together.

The power of the blonde woman dying may lead to the end of his career as a cop, but he absolutely will not be convicted based on his race. That's not how this works. Maybe if he were a civilian I could see this being the case, but because he is a cop and cops have protections and different rules from civilians, he will be let off.


Ah. You are talking ONLY about the criminal penalties he may face. Agreed that there are very few, if any, legal consequences.

However, the number of stories you will read in the coming months about how liberal progressives in Minneapolis are destroying America by hiring black Somali Muslim ISIS cops to murder pretty white peoples will be epic.
 
2017-07-17 01:41:28 PM  

Cthulhu Theory: bisi: Cthulhu Theory: bisi: Cthulhu Theory: Lusiphur: Triggered much? Last year (2016), 135 police officers were killed in the line of duty, including traffic fatalities. This year (2017) SO FAR the police have killed 523 people. I don't know where you get Tumblr it self-medicating/self-diagnosing from, other than you just have a list of Boogeyman words you spot when you're confronted by opinions you don't like, but it seems like the police have made it clear that they value their lives way above the lives of anyone else. I'm not reinforcing shiat - the police have already made it clear that they see "civilians" as the enemy, and if it keeps going, it won't be long until EMTs start seeing themselves as combat medics and carrying guns. And for the record, you're all farking civilians.

They are literally trained to treat every traffic stop as a potential life or death situation. Civilians are not "the enemy" as you put it, but potential threats to their life. There's a fundamental difference there I think you need to consider.

Occupational hazard. Do cops not know that going in?
At what point does it start to become self serving?

Of course they know it going in, they're trained to know it, expect it, and predict it so they can mitigate the threat before it injures someone else. Clearly it's flawed because we have way too many unarmed people being shot.

But what do you mean by self-serving?

Self serving in the sense that their own protection from any, even perceived, threats is valued higher than the life of a possibly innocent person.

Sounds like you have an overly romanticized view of the police. I'll say it as many times as I need to. If you're the reason the police are there, they will prioritize their life over yours every time. Every move you make is scrutinized as a potential threat. You are a potential threat until they have you patted down and cuffed.

They're trained to suspect that at any point, even unarmed, you can turn the routine stop into a life or death situation by going for their own gun and shooting them, grabbing their own unseen weapon, or even directly assaulting them, or any other number of methods. Pretty much, unless you're a passerby, you're considered a viable threat and they have a right, if not a duty, to protect their lives from you regardless of whether or not you're an actual threat.


You're not wrong. But is this really how you want law enforcement to operate? Living under the threat that, when confronted with them, one false move can get you killed immediately?
I am from a country with substantially fewer guns, so my respective may be a little skewed. But even when you're armed, you'd have to pretty much actively draw towards a LEO to get this kind of response.

You really don't see how farked up this is?
 
2017-07-17 01:43:29 PM  
crazy that there are still people who call the cops for help. What planet do you live on?
 
2017-07-17 01:43:38 PM  

Cthulhu Theory: Lusiphur: Triggered much? Last year (2016), 135 police officers were killed in the line of duty, including traffic fatalities. This year (2017) SO FAR the police have killed 523 people. I don't know where you get Tumblr it self-medicating/self-diagnosing from, other than you just have a list of Boogeyman words you spot when you're confronted by opinions you don't like, but it seems like the police have made it clear that they value their lives way above the lives of anyone else. I'm not reinforcing shiat - the police have already made it clear that they see "civilians" as the enemy, and if it keeps going, it won't be long until EMTs start seeing themselves as combat medics and carrying guns. And for the record, you're all farking civilians.

They are literally trained to treat every traffic stop as a potential life or death situation. Civilians are not "the enemy" as you put it, but potential threats to their life. There's a fundamental difference there I think you need to consider.


Which is just as, if not more, ludicrous. And the whole impetus for my rant. The life of the police officer in any interaction with a non-obvious police officer should be the least valuable party of the equation. It should go [lives of bystanders > life of person officer is interacting with > life of officer]. Period.
 
2017-07-17 01:45:11 PM  

Cthulhu Theory: Thingster: I'm not saying the cop or the blonde was racist.I'm saying the system has built in biases, and it's going to be this strange wrestling match between the power of cop, the power of race, and the power of dead blonde woman in the media.So take a deep breath there, dear. We're all on this ride together.

The power of the blonde woman dying may lead to the end of his career as a cop, but he absolutely will not be convicted based on his race. That's not how this works. Maybe if he were a civilian I could see this being the case, but because he is a cop and cops have protections and different rules from civilians, he will be let off.


You might want to reread the post of mine that really got your dander up, and realize how much of an idiot you're being before I actually call you an idiot, and explain that I never said the cop would be convicted, and how I further said nothing will likely happen to the cop beyond a firing - just that it'll be interesting to see the dynamic play out in the media.

Calm your self and read before responding; thanks!
 
2017-07-17 01:49:54 PM  

burncheese: bisi: Question for the EMS or other knowledgeable farkers: what is the best course of action when a person (family member, friend, whatever) is armed and threatening suicide or something similar, when you can't handle the situation by yourself but would still like them to remain un"helped" by police?

/It is still quite a leap from "person considering or talking about suicide" to "ex-person". Interesting article I read a while ago: https://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/opinionator/2013/06/02/a-simple-way-t​o-reduce-suicides/?referer=

That was really interesting. FTA:
Why haven't we seen more blister packages? One reason is money. Manufacturers would have to redesign packaging, and the blister packaging would cost more compared with loose pills in a bottle.

The thing here is that it's a matter who's paying for what. Yes, it would cost suppliers and therefore consumers more for the blister packs. But, it would cost society (whether by taxes, insurance premiums, whatever) less in terms of emergency services - 911 dispatchers, poison control, EMS, police, grief councilors, etc.

/no idea how much these things would balance each other out
//maybe there was some sort of cost analysis in the study


And who do you think throws in more weight when it comes to writing (or not writing) those laws?

My point was this though: going all the way with a suicide attempt takes a lot of determination. So much that even popping out 50 individual pills from a blister becomes so much of a hassle, that a lot of people just go: "Fark it, this is too much work. What's new on Netflix?"
 
2017-07-17 01:50:13 PM  
His parents said he just needed to sleep. Then things police got stupid. And tragic .

FTFY Subby.

NEVER EVER call the police unless your life is in mortal danger! Can't bear to repeat this yet once again!

The policeman in modern United States are not trained to DEESCALATE situations.
They are simply trained to remove all existential threats by force. that they are very good at.
In this case they viewed their son no differently than if he was robbing a bank or mouthing off to a cop in a donut shop.
 
2017-07-17 01:50:30 PM  

his name is my name too: FTA: "The reason police shoot someone is that they fear getting shot," Berkowitz said. "If they're wearing armor, or they're in an armored truck, they feel more secure, and they're less likely to shoot."

HAHAHAHAHAHA, no.

Lets fix that shall we?

FIXED:  "The reason police shoot someone is that they fear everything," Berkowitz said. "If they're wearing armor, or they're in an armored truck, they feel more empowered, and they're more likely to shoot to prove their manhood."

Now that statement is true.


Or: "The reason police shoot someone is they want to fix the problem by just killing everyone involved and not get in trouble for it.  If they're wearing armor, or they're in an armored truck, they're more likely to intimidate the people they're facing into acting irrationally, thus providing them with justification to shoot them."
 
2017-07-17 01:55:08 PM  

lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more


I'm confused! Was that supposed to be a sarcastic post? .... difficult to tell or are you saying you liked the outcome of this incident?
 
2017-07-17 01:57:35 PM  

his name is my name too: lucksi: cman: lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more

Deutschland uber alles

Are you an expat living there, or are you native?

it's funny how you people know such things, yet elect a leader running on that platform

uh no... we people didn't, we people elected Hillary by 3 million more votes than the derp brigade.  The EC abdicated their duty and elected the demagogue which is outside of the people's control.


This. We don't actually elect our POTUS. We never have. The election is more of an opinion poll than anything.
 
2017-07-17 02:03:35 PM  

The Larch: Are you saying race won't be a factor in the public reaction to this? Because if so, you're completely, totally, 100% wrong.


No, I said it won't factor into the judgement. The law tends to be on the side of the police, which is evidenced by the myriad officers who kill people every year and get off with a slap on the wrist. The public reaction may force the department to put him on desk duty or even can him, but that's about as far as it will go based on the extremely limited amount of information available at this time.

The Larch: Or are you acknowledging that there will be an outcry from racists who will demand that the black Muslim Somali immigrant who shot the pretty white woman should be in prison, and are you saying you're prepared to see the innumerable stories on right wing blogs about how liberal Minneapolis leftists want to murdee pretty white blond people with their progressive ISIS police force. But you believe those stories won't influence the outcome of the investigation?


I'm not interested in public outrage on this. You all want to whip this into a racially and/or culturally charged circle jerk, that's on you. I'll have none of it. 

Remember Freddy Gray, by the way? Not a single cop, even the black ones, were found guilty, despite the outrage.

If you think the guy being brown skinned and muslim is gonna change anything, you're a racist moron.
 
2017-07-17 02:06:11 PM  

The Larch: Cthulhu Theory: Thingster: I'm not saying the cop or the blonde was racist.I'm saying the system has built in biases, and it's going to be this strange wrestling match between the power of cop, the power of race, and the power of dead blonde woman in the media.So take a deep breath there, dear. We're all on this ride together.

The power of the blonde woman dying may lead to the end of his career as a cop, but he absolutely will not be convicted based on his race. That's not how this works. Maybe if he were a civilian I could see this being the case, but because he is a cop and cops have protections and different rules from civilians, he will be let off.

Ah. You are talking ONLY about the criminal penalties he may face. Agreed that there are very few, if any, legal consequences.

However, the number of stories you will read in the coming months about how liberal progressives in Minneapolis are destroying America by hiring black Somali Muslim ISIS cops to murder pretty white peoples will be epic.


Of course there will, any opportunity to bang the "other guy" is jumped on because that's the world we live in now. And, honestly, it's a good thing there's a wide separation between the court of law and the court of public opinion, because we'd all be farked otherwise.
 
2017-07-17 02:19:08 PM  

Cthulhu Theory: The Larch: Are you saying race won't be a factor in the public reaction to this? Because if so, you're completely, totally, 100% wrong.

No, I said it won't factor into the judgement. The law tends to be on the side of the police, which is evidenced by the myriad officers who kill people every year and get off with a slap on the wrist. The public reaction may force the department to put him on desk duty or even can him, but that's about as far as it will go based on the extremely limited amount of information available at this time.

The Larch: Or are you acknowledging that there will be an outcry from racists who will demand that the black Muslim Somali immigrant who shot the pretty white woman should be in prison, and are you saying you're prepared to see the innumerable stories on right wing blogs about how liberal Minneapolis leftists want to murdee pretty white blond people with their progressive ISIS police force. But you believe those stories won't influence the outcome of the investigation?

I'm not interested in public outrage on this. You all want to whip this into a racially and/or culturally charged circle jerk, that's on you. I'll have none of it. 

Remember Freddy Gray, by the way? Not a single cop, even the black ones, were found guilty, despite the outrage.

If you think the guy being brown skinned and muslim is gonna change anything, you're a racist moron.


If you don't think the guy being a Muslim immigrant from Somalia is going to change anything, you haven't been paying attention to the approximately 25% of Americans who are proud to be deplorable.
 
2017-07-17 02:29:07 PM  

docpeteyJ: DarkVader: Given what we saw happen here, what the parents of the victim in your case did was the right thing to do unless they were familiar with your protocol of sending in a psychologist.

And the part of your protocol that has the police involved at all is still a problem.  There should be no police called, they shouldn't be nearby, they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the scene.

Look who didn't read my other responses.  I'll repeat it for you.

The parents lied to us because they were concealing their illegal activities, therefore we had no chance to prevent that kid's suicide.

There were no police on scene,  Just me and my partner.

If the parents had been honest with us, we would have engaged (by phone first) a specially trained hostage negotiator/psychologist as per protocol, and PD would have been staging nearby and would not have interfered unless the patient became a danger to other people.

Lusiphur:  <snipped for brevity>

No offense, but you have no idea how EMS works, especially in regards to scene safety and how we handle suicidal patients.  You made this perfectly clear with this statement:

Should the parents have told you the kid was suicidal? Probably.

Probably?  PROBABLY?  How the hell am I supposed to treat my patient accordingly if I've been purposely given blatantly incorrect medical information and a false history of the chief complain regarding the patient in question?  Wait, I know...let me put on my f*cking psychic hat. What you don't understand is that when my dispatcher sends me on a call, they provide to me as much information about the patient as the calltaker was able to glean.  Why?  So I can be prepared to TREAT THE REPORTED PROBLEM WITHOUT DELAY.

*sigh*

Good to know how little you value the lives of emergency medical personnel.


Good to know how little you value the lives of emergency medical personnel.

I'm not paid to value the lives of emergency personnel of any kind, unlike said emergency personnel. And frankly, I actually value you guys quite highly.

If I could be assured that calling 911 and saying "my child is suicidal and has a handgun" would result in a team of EMTs, a trained counselor, and a squad car parked up the block and told to stay there unless called in, I would be all about full forthright disclosure. But if giving out information, no matter how pertinent, is going to result in a significantly higher chance that I or my loved ones will get shot, then fark you. You'll get just enough to keep my family (and frankly, my neighbors, given how often cops get the house wrong) safe.
 
2017-07-17 02:32:22 PM  

burncheese: So, the ex called first, but ultimately it was the father's call that dispatched the police. Are we clear yet?


Yes.  I was clear on that the entire time, which is why I blame the father.  The ex asked for a welfare check.  Presumably, after the police initially spoke to the father, they were not going to get involved.  Then, the father went full-retard.
 
2017-07-17 02:40:04 PM  

TOSViolation: burncheese: So, the ex called first, but ultimately it was the father's call that dispatched the police. Are we clear yet?

Yes.  I was clear on that the entire time, which is why I blame the father.  The ex asked for a welfare check.  Presumably, after the police initially spoke to the father, they were not going to get involved.  Then, the father went full-retard.


I blame the grown adult who barricaded himself in his room, made threats against the police, refused to answer the phone, and shot himself with a handgun.

The fully grown adult who made the series of decisions that led directly to this tragedy shares most of the blame.
 
2017-07-17 02:40:20 PM  

tukatz: Your kid has mental problems, snaps without warning, indicates he's going to kill himself.... so you call the police?  Why?  What magic do you want them to perform to cure him?  They're going to be more concerned that a mentally ill guy has a gun and will turn it on others.  And why does someone diagnosed with mental illness own a gun?  Dad didn't seem to have a problem with that.

You want to help him?  Then do something yourself.  Why would you call to say your kid is acting dangerously, then say everything to deny it when the police get there?  Get him some help from medical professionals.  Don't try to pawn it off on others, then biatch when it doesn't go the way you wanted.

It's almost like some people need the drama.  They won't do anything themselves, but like to throw the blame around when things go badly.   The kid would have probably shot himself anyways.... but now they can claim it someone else's fault.  That way they can continue to be delusional about how great their son was and how he was so safe to be around.

Ridiculous.  If so many people hate the police, why do they continue to call them with nonsense?  Try taking care of your own issues.


These parents were just very naive. They grew up in an era and a place where cops helped people. Younger generations know much better.
 
2017-07-17 02:41:31 PM  

Lusiphur: docpeteyJ: DarkVader: Given what we saw happen here, what the parents of the victim in your case did was the right thing to do unless they were familiar with your protocol of sending in a psychologist.

And the part of your protocol that has the police involved at all is still a problem.  There should be no police called, they shouldn't be nearby, they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the scene.

Look who didn't read my other responses.  I'll repeat it for you.

The parents lied to us because they were concealing their illegal activities, therefore we had no chance to prevent that kid's suicide.

There were no police on scene,  Just me and my partner.

If the parents had been honest with us, we would have engaged (by phone first) a specially trained hostage negotiator/psychologist as per protocol, and PD would have been staging nearby and would not have interfered unless the patient became a danger to other people.

Lusiphur:  <snipped for brevity>

No offense, but you have no idea how EMS works, especially in regards to scene safety and how we handle suicidal patients.  You made this perfectly clear with this statement:

Should the parents have told you the kid was suicidal? Probably.

Probably?  PROBABLY?  How the hell am I supposed to treat my patient accordingly if I've been purposely given blatantly incorrect medical information and a false history of the chief complain regarding the patient in question?  Wait, I know...let me put on my f*cking psychic hat. What you don't understand is that when my dispatcher sends me on a call, they provide to me as much information about the patient as the calltaker was able to glean.  Why?  So I can be prepared to TREAT THE REPORTED PROBLEM WITHOUT DELAY.

*sigh*

Good to know how little you value the lives of emergency medical personnel.

Good to know how little you value the lives of emergency medical personnel.

I'm not paid to value the lives of emergency personnel of any kind, unlike said emergency personnel. And frankly, I actually value you guys quite highly.

If I could be assured that calling 911 and saying "my child is suicidal and has a handgun" would result in a team of EMTs, a trained counselor, and a squad car parked up the block and told to stay there unless called in, I would be all about full forthright disclosure. But if giving out information, no matter how pertinent, is going to result in a significantly higher chance that I or my loved ones will get shot, then fark you. You'll get just enough to keep my family (and frankly, my neighbors, given how often cops get the house wrong) safe.


you're kind of a psychopath.
 
2017-07-17 02:41:49 PM  

Splinthar: Lusiphur: Splinthar: Lusiphur: docpeteyJ: Yeah, sometimes it's the family that do really stupid things that leave you wondering just WTF they were thinking.  I'm torn on whether or not the family in TFA played a role in what I see as a completely avoidable and pointless tragedy.

Last year, my Rescue Unit was dispatched on a teenager who, the parents reported, was alone in the house and having a severe anxiety attack*.No need for PD backup.  My partner and  I responded to find a distraught 16-year old sitting on the couch with a blanket on his lap. Absolutely we were in the mindset that this was a medical call, and nothing more. We see it all the time.

Did the parents mention that he had a history of suicide attempts?  That he wasn't actually having an anxiety attack, but had called them to say he wanted to kill himself?  THAT THERE WAS A LOADED, UNSECURED FIREARM IN THE HOUSE?  Which he told his parents he was in possession of?  No, they did not**.  And considering Utah has a reputation for NOT shooting first and asking questions later, I don't think their omission of these very important facts had anything to do with fear for their child's safety from over-enthusiastic cops.  Might just have had something to do with the fact that there was a meth lab in their shed.

What the parents DID do was that they reported it was an anxiety attack, stated it was an ongoing problem with him, and which (at least here) is treated as a medical problem, not a police one.  So off we went expecting to administer the appropriate medication and transport him for observation in the ER.  No need for PD backup.

Within five minutes of our arrival, where we found an obviously distraught teenaged male sitting on the couch with a blanket in his lap, he pulled out a loaded 9mm, put it to his head, and pulled the trigger.  My partner, who is damned lucky to be alive, was less than five feet away from him at the time, although he later needed medical care to remove a chunk of the kid's skull from his ...

I am not the one calling for 100 to be injured to prevent rustling the jimmies of someone who is having a mental episode, your knee-jerk hot-take BS is the triggered typing of someone who has finally lost patience with being rational.

I said that police should have handled it better, but also that EMS and First Responders shouldn't be treated like a meat shield.  You are the one using 4.5 x differential on casualties to dehumanize not only police but all first responders.

We agree that police should absolutely not shoot people nearly as often as they do, and they should be judged for it.

We agree its tragic that people who call 911 don't get help but rather get more problems.

Where we don't agree is you thinking its ok to say that 100 first responders should be harmed before a single suffering person.

You clearly are going full binary on the situation when what is really needed is a spectrum of understanding and response.


We've had calm, measured debate on this. For years. fark, we've had rational conversations for decades. Community policing, harm reduction, and minimizing violence have been hot topics since the 80s. And even as the jobs of police and other first responders have gotten orders of magnitude safer, violence by the police has ramped up. A reasonable response does not work against an unreasonable position.

Also, I hesitate to take seriously anyone who say "rustle jimmies" unironically.
 
2017-07-17 02:45:06 PM  

Cthulhu Theory: I doubt a body cam would have helped anything


It would have provided evidence for the police to "lose" when subpoenaed for the murder investigation they'd be facing in a civilized country.

Basically, American police are like M-13 at this point: A known organization of hardcore murderers you do not fark with. The difference is, M-13 type groups can still be taken down by calling the police on them. Who do you call when the cartel is the cops??
 
2017-07-17 02:46:23 PM  

bisi: You're not wrong. But is this really how you want law enforcement to operate? Living under the threat that, when confronted with them, one false move can get you killed immediately?I am from a country with substantially fewer guns, so my respective may be a little skewed. But even when you're armed, you'd have to pretty much actively draw towards a LEO to get this kind of response.You really don't see how farked up this is?


If you pay attention to my posts on these things, I'm consistently advocating for some method of reining in their power in this aspect. It's not at all how I want things to be, and honestly, I'd get rid of guns altogether if I thought it were feasible, but that's not the world we live in and I know that. So my aim here is to point the outrage in the right direction: the protocols and training (and in the case of de-escalation, the lack thereof) so we stop blaming asshole cops and blame the actual system that perpetuates, encourages, and protects their actions.

Getting rid of the cops won't solve anything, because we'll still have to replace them with something, and until that replacement comes in it's my guess it'd be a military solution, which is even worse. Eventually we would have cops 2.0 and probably give them the same procedures they currently have, and nothing would change.

Lusiphur: Which is just as, if not more, ludicrous. And the whole impetus for my rant. The life of the police officer in any interaction with a non-obvious police officer should be the least valuable party of the equation. It should go [lives of bystanders > life of person officer is interacting with > life of officer]. Period.


There's a lot of "should be"s in the world. The reality is, right now, despite how bad we might want it to be otherwise, the priority is bystanders > officer > suspect. And anyone the cop is interacting with is probably falling into the suspect category.

Thingster: You might want to reread the post of mine that really got your dander up, and realize how much of an idiot you're being before I actually call you an idiot, and explain that I never said the cop would be convicted, and how I further said nothing will likely happen to the cop beyond a firing - just that it'll be interesting to see the dynamic play out in the media.


You should re-read yourself, you provided 2 scenarios: non-conviction and conviction in that order and said "if he gets charged and convicted, then it's going to be racism since the brown guy was charged for killing the blonde woman when white cops are rarely charged for shooting brown men." This is what I'm addressing. If he were to be convicted it would not be race related but due to a violation of protocol that they can't ignore. Nothing will change and his race remains little to do with it beyond the opinions of those who have a vested interest in turning it into a race problem.
 
2017-07-17 02:51:57 PM  

Lusiphur: Splinthar: Lusiphur: Splinthar: Lusiphur: docpeteyJ: Yeah, sometimes it's the family that do really stupid things that leave you wondering just WTF they were thinking.  I'm torn on whether or not the family in TFA played a role in what I see as a completely avoidable and pointless tragedy.

Last year, my Rescue Unit was dispatched on a teenager who, the parents reported, was alone in the house and having a severe anxiety attack*.No need for PD backup.  My partner and  I responded to find a distraught 16-year old sitting on the couch with a blanket on his lap. Absolutely we were in the mindset that this was a medical call, and nothing more. We see it all the time.

Did the parents mention that he had a history of suicide attempts?  That he wasn't actually having an anxiety attack, but had called them to say he wanted to kill himself?  THAT THERE WAS A LOADED, UNSECURED FIREARM IN THE HOUSE?  Which he told his parents he was in possession of?  No, they did not**.  And considering Utah has a reputation for NOT shooting first and asking questions later, I don't think their omission of these very important facts had anything to do with fear for their child's safety from over-enthusiastic cops.  Might just have had something to do with the fact that there was a meth lab in their shed.

What the parents DID do was that they reported it was an anxiety attack, stated it was an ongoing problem with him, and which (at least here) is treated as a medical problem, not a police one.  So off we went expecting to administer the appropriate medication and transport him for observation in the ER.  No need for PD backup.

Within five minutes of our arrival, where we found an obviously distraught teenaged male sitting on the couch with a blanket in his lap, he pulled out a loaded 9mm, put it to his head, and pulled the trigger.  My partner, who is damned lucky to be alive, was less than five feet away from him at the time, although he later needed medical care to remove a chunk of the kid's skull from his ...

I am not the one calling for 100 to be injured to prevent rustling the jimmies of someone who is having a mental episode, your knee-jerk hot-take BS is the triggered typing of someone who has finally lost patience with being rational.

I said that police should have handled it better, but also that EMS and First Responders shouldn't be treated like a meat shield.  You are the one using 4.5 x differential on casualties to dehumanize not only police but all first responders.

We agree that police should absolutely not shoot people nearly as often as they do, and they should be judged for it.

We agree its tragic that people who call 911 don't get help but rather get more problems.

Where we don't agree is you thinking its ok to say that 100 first responders should be harmed before a single suffering person.

You clearly are going full binary on the situation when what is really needed is a spectrum of understanding and response.

We've had calm, measured debate on this. For years. fark, we've had rational conversations for decades. Community policing, harm reduction, and minimizing violence have been hot topics since the 80s. And even as the jobs of police and other first responders have gotten orders of magnitude safer, violence by the police has ramped up. A reasonable response does not work against an unreasonable position.

Also, I hesitate to take seriously anyone who say "rustle jimmies" unironically.


I suspect police violence hasn't actually increased. Awareness of police violence has certainly increased, but ive seen no evidence that the actual violence has.
 
2017-07-17 02:54:57 PM  

Lusiphur: Good to know how little you value the lives of emergency medical personnel.

I'm not paid to value the lives of emergency personnel of any kind, unlike said emergency personnel. And frankly, I actually value you guys quite highly.


It's a good thing, too, because your attitude could result in Delay of Care and cost lives.

If I could be assured that calling 911 and saying "my child is suicidal and has a handgun" would result in a team of EMTs, a trained counselor, and a squad car parked up the block and told to stay there unless called in, I would be all about full forthright disclosure. But if giving out information, no matter how pertinent, is going to result in a significantly higher chance that I or my loved ones will get shot, then fark you. You'll get just enough to keep my family (and frankly, my neighbors, given how often cops get the house wrong) safe.

Then you are responsible when EMS personnel are delayed in giving rapid, appropriate care due to your paranoia, thereby resulting in less-than-optimal medical treatment.
 
2017-07-17 02:57:48 PM  

doglover: Cthulhu Theory: I doubt a body cam would have helped anything

It would have provided evidence for the police to "lose" when subpoenaed for the murder investigation they'd be facing in a civilized country.

Basically, American police are like M-13 at this point: A known organization of hardcore murderers you do not fark with. The difference is, M-13 type groups can still be taken down by calling the police on them. Who do you call when the cartel is the cops??


We could argue for days about what it would have captured, but I highly doubt that the police were just showing off their gun to a random citizen near a dark alley at night and it accidentally went off. The weapon was drawn for a reason, the officer pointed it at her and fired for a reason. Not saying it's a good reason, but that it's almost certainly not an accidental discharge and the cops will say they had reason to believe she might be armed. Unless the recording would capture her being calm and/or the officer being an idiot with his gun, there's practically no argument that would stick better than the cop's argument of a reasonably perceived imminent threat.

/Cops need 360 degree cams btw, to capture everything at all times. None of this off-camera BS, and we definitely have the tech now to do so.
 
2017-07-17 02:59:29 PM  

RedVentrue: his name is my name too: lucksi: cman: lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more

Deutschland uber alles

Are you an expat living there, or are you native?

it's funny how you people know such things, yet elect a leader running on that platform

uh no... we people didn't, we people elected Hillary by 3 million more votes than the derp brigade.  The EC abdicated their duty and elected the demagogue which is outside of the people's control.

This. We don't actually elect our POTUS. We never have. The election is more of an opinion poll than anything.


no, you actually do elect your POTUS. In my (and many other countries) we get no say in the matter. The parties elect someone from their own party who they think is best suited for the job. There is no input from the voters. we know who the presidental candidates are from the parties, but the parties themselves decided on them
 
2017-07-17 03:12:37 PM  

The Larch: TOSViolation: burncheese: So, the ex called first, but ultimately it was the father's call that dispatched the police. Are we clear yet?

Yes.  I was clear on that the entire time, which is why I blame the father.  The ex asked for a welfare check.  Presumably, after the police initially spoke to the father, they were not going to get involved.  Then, the father went full-retard.

I blame the grown adult who barricaded himself in his room, made threats against the police, refused to answer the phone, and shot himself with a handgun.

The fully grown adult who made the series of decisions that led directly to this tragedy shares most of the blame.


You can't blame a dead guy.  He's not around anymore.
 
2017-07-17 03:13:54 PM  

Cthulhu Theory: The Larch: Are you saying race won't be a factor in the public reaction to this? Because if so, you're completely, totally, 100% wrong.

No, I said it won't factor into the judgement. The law tends to be on the side of the police, which is evidenced by the myriad officers who kill people every year and get off with a slap on the wrist. The public reaction may force the department to put him on desk duty or even can him, but that's about as far as it will go based on the extremely limited amount of information available at this time.

The Larch: Or are you acknowledging that there will be an outcry from racists who will demand that the black Muslim Somali immigrant who shot the pretty white woman should be in prison, and are you saying you're prepared to see the innumerable stories on right wing blogs about how liberal Minneapolis leftists want to murdee pretty white blond people with their progressive ISIS police force. But you believe those stories won't influence the outcome of the investigation?

I'm not interested in public outrage on this. You all want to whip this into a racially and/or culturally charged circle jerk, that's on you. I'll have none of it. 

Remember Freddy Gray, by the way? Not a single cop, even the black ones, were found guilty, despite the outrage.

If you think the guy being brown skinned and muslim is gonna change anything, you're a racist moron.


I'm not saying you're wrong about the ultimate outcome here, but I am curious why you think that a person believing that the legal system is racist is evidence that that person is, themself, racist.
 
2017-07-17 03:17:43 PM  

lucksi: RedVentrue: his name is my name too: lucksi: cman: lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more

Deutschland uber alles

Are you an expat living there, or are you native?

it's funny how you people know such things, yet elect a leader running on that platform

uh no... we people didn't, we people elected Hillary by 3 million more votes than the derp brigade.  The EC abdicated their duty and elected the demagogue which is outside of the people's control.

This. We don't actually elect our POTUS. We never have. The election is more of an opinion poll than anything.

no, you actually do elect your POTUS. In my (and many other countries) we get no say in the matter. The parties elect someone from their own party who they think is best suited for the job. There is no input from the voters. we know who the presidental candidates are from the parties, but the parties themselves decided on them


Well never mind that the EC is meant to be representative of the people's will, but the way it sometimes works goes against the popular vote. People forget this, even though it's taught in grade school.

/We should get rid of the EC anyway, it's dumb.
 
2017-07-17 03:18:04 PM  

The Larch: Lusiphur: docpeteyJ: DarkVader: Given what we saw happen here, what the parents of the victim in your case did was the right thing to do unless they were familiar with your protocol of sending in a psychologist.

And the part of your protocol that has the police involved at all is still a problem.  There should be no police called, they shouldn't be nearby, they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the scene.

Look who didn't read my other responses.  I'll repeat it for you.

The parents lied to us because they were concealing their illegal activities, therefore we had no chance to prevent that kid's suicide.

There were no police on scene,  Just me and my partner.

If the parents had been honest with us, we would have engaged (by phone first) a specially trained hostage negotiator/psychologist as per protocol, and PD would have been staging nearby and would not have interfered unless the patient became a danger to other people.

Lusiphur:  <snipped for brevity>

No offense, but you have no idea how EMS works, especially in regards to scene safety and how we handle suicidal patients.  You made this perfectly clear with this statement:

Should the parents have told you the kid was suicidal? Probably.

Probably?  PROBABLY?  How the hell am I supposed to treat my patient accordingly if I've been purposely given blatantly incorrect medical information and a false history of the chief complain regarding the patient in question?  Wait, I know...let me put on my f*cking psychic hat. What you don't understand is that when my dispatcher sends me on a call, they provide to me as much information about the patient as the calltaker was able to glean.  Why?  So I can be prepared to TREAT THE REPORTED PROBLEM WITHOUT DELAY.

*sigh*

Good to know how little you value the lives of emergency medical personnel.

Good to know how little you value the lives of emergency medical personnel.

I'm not paid to value the lives of emergency personnel of any kind, unlike said emergency personnel. And frankly, I actually value you guys quite highly.

If I could be assured that calling 911 and saying "my child is suicidal and has a handgun" would result in a team of EMTs, a trained counselor, and a squad car parked up the block and told to stay there unless called in, I would be all about full forthright disclosure. But if giving out information, no matter how pertinent, is going to result in a significantly higher chance that I or my loved ones will get shot, then fark you. You'll get just enough to keep my family (and frankly, my neighbors, given how often cops get the house wrong) safe.

you're kind of a psychopath.


While I get where you are coming from, do you see why "Please give full disclosure if there is a mentally unstable person with a weapon, because I would rather the police shoot your loved one than have your loved one shoot me or one of my people" is perhaps not a message that is going to be all that convincing to the people making the phone call, even if the sentiment is understandable in the abstract?
 
2017-07-17 03:18:48 PM  
What I can't understand are the people on social media who are blaming the ex-gf.
 
2017-07-17 03:22:10 PM  

Delta1212: Cthulhu Theory: The Larch: Are you saying race won't be a factor in the public reaction to this? Because if so, you're completely, totally, 100% wrong.

No, I said it won't factor into the judgement. The law tends to be on the side of the police, which is evidenced by the myriad officers who kill people every year and get off with a slap on the wrist. The public reaction may force the department to put him on desk duty or even can him, but that's about as far as it will go based on the extremely limited amount of information available at this time.

The Larch: Or are you acknowledging that there will be an outcry from racists who will demand that the black Muslim Somali immigrant who shot the pretty white woman should be in prison, and are you saying you're prepared to see the innumerable stories on right wing blogs about how liberal Minneapolis leftists want to murdee pretty white blond people with their progressive ISIS police force. But you believe those stories won't influence the outcome of the investigation?

I'm not interested in public outrage on this. You all want to whip this into a racially and/or culturally charged circle jerk, that's on you. I'll have none of it. 

Remember Freddy Gray, by the way? Not a single cop, even the black ones, were found guilty, despite the outrage.

If you think the guy being brown skinned and muslim is gonna change anything, you're a racist moron.

I'm not saying you're wrong about the ultimate outcome here, but I am curious why you think that a person believing that the legal system is racist is evidence that that person is, themself, racist.


If you've read a single thing from the alt-right noise machine in the last decade, you already know that liberals are the real racists.
 
2017-07-17 03:24:27 PM  

Cthulhu Theory: We could argue for days about what it would have captured


Luckily, we don't have to.

If you have body cameras, and you officially on duty, those cameras should be on.

End of story.

If the cameras were off, I can only assume the police have committed crimes. Normal citizens are innocent until proven guilty. Public servants have taken oaths the supersede that rule. Violation of the oath, ie not using body cameras when you have such cameras, is a crime in and of itself.
 
2017-07-17 03:34:34 PM  
Can't believe *I* am the one to say this but...

This Party Took a Turn for the Douche (Official Video) by Garfunkel and Oates
Youtube pHH3brmhPyw
 
2017-07-17 03:49:40 PM  
"The reason police shoot someone is that they fear getting shot," are sexually insecure, raisin-testicled cowards who need to murder helpless people to get their tiny, pathetic little peckers up.
 
2017-07-17 03:55:35 PM  
a team of 10 highly trained crisis negotiators

Maybe a bit less paramilitary training and a little bit of not killing citizens training?
 
2017-07-17 04:01:15 PM  
All he wanted was a Pepsi
 
2017-07-17 04:03:05 PM  

Delta1212: Cthulhu Theory: The Larch: Are you saying race won't be a factor in the public reaction to this? Because if so, you're completely, totally, 100% wrong.

No, I said it won't factor into the judgement. The law tends to be on the side of the police, which is evidenced by the myriad officers who kill people every year and get off with a slap on the wrist. The public reaction may force the department to put him on desk duty or even can him, but that's about as far as it will go based on the extremely limited amount of information available at this time.

The Larch: Or are you acknowledging that there will be an outcry from racists who will demand that the black Muslim Somali immigrant who shot the pretty white woman should be in prison, and are you saying you're prepared to see the innumerable stories on right wing blogs about how liberal Minneapolis leftists want to murdee pretty white blond people with their progressive ISIS police force. But you believe those stories won't influence the outcome of the investigation?

I'm not interested in public outrage on this. You all want to whip this into a racially and/or culturally charged circle jerk, that's on you. I'll have none of it. 

Remember Freddy Gray, by the way? Not a single cop, even the black ones, were found guilty, despite the outrage.

If you think the guy being brown skinned and muslim is gonna change anything, you're a racist moron.

I'm not saying you're wrong about the ultimate outcome here, but I am curious why you think that a person believing that the legal system is racist is evidence that that person is, themself, racist.


Because he's essentially trying to force a form racial segregation within the system itself. Pretending like an institution designed to uphold the law can somehow break the law by segregating its own by virtue of skin color without collapsing in on itself is idiotic. The system is notorious for protecting its own.
 
2017-07-17 04:06:02 PM  

cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person


Unless you happen to get that one police officer who I read a story about that was a crisis responder that worked the golden gate bridge.  He patrolled the bridge for jumpers and managed to talk many people off the ledge... in the right direction.  But getting someone that qualified is really bad odds, so I agree, don't call the police.  Seriously, he had his dog with him, I think he would have been fine if the police never got involved.
 
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