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(MSN)   His parents said he just needed to sleep. Then things got stupid. And tragic   ( msn.com) divider line
    More: Misc, police, Constable, Austin, Russell Reeves, hingham police, SWAT team, hingham police chief, Austin's parents  
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17822 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Jul 2017 at 6:59 AM (13 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-07-17 11:33:05 AM  
Remember the story about the black guy who got shot by the cop who was aiming at the mentally ill person the black guy was helping?

Police access to use of force seriously needs to be curtailed.
 
2017-07-17 11:35:38 AM  

Lusiphur: Except that a shiat ton of relatively recent research has shown that youth/adolescent suicide is much different than adult suicide, in that it is often not part of a significantly larger chain of mental health issues, and is often spontaneous and unlikely to be trusted if prevented the first time. Teenager brains aren't wired right - they're incredibly short-sighted and unstable, and can tip over from "totally ok" to "about to kill myself" in seconds, often with no real build-up or history of mental illness.

If this kid was left alone, chances are he would have gotten over it, went to therapy, and been a perfectly functional and normal adult.


Sure, sounds about right to me.  We're also dealing with age 26, with is just barely past the limit of when the male brain fully develops.  My point was more along the lines of we shouldn't treat suicide as a simple, easily solved matter.
 
2017-07-17 11:37:33 AM  
Nobody made him shoot himself. That was his free will. His choice. The parents were just trying to help. Don't you think they're going to blame themselves? They have to live with it for the rest of their lives when they shouldn't. They didn't make him shoot himself. They didn't see he was visibly in a bad mood, stop him, and say: "Don't forget the gun!" He shot himself. He did it. His free will. Was this all preventable? Of course it was in a myriad of ways, but no one is to blame for him shooting himself except for himself. Tragic all around, but don't go blaming the cops doing what they're trained to do. Don't go blaming the parents for doing what they thought was right. The cops just need different training. How were they to know this wouldn't go the way of murder-suicide? How did they know he wouldn't kill his parents and then himself? They aren't to blame. The parents aren't to blame. He shot himself. That's the cold hard matter-of-fact truth.
 
2017-07-17 11:38:58 AM  

Farce-Side: Barricaded Gunman: orangehat: lucksi: his name is my name too: lucksi: cman: lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more

Deutschland uber alles

Are you an expat living there, or are you native?

it's funny how you people know such things, yet elect a leader running on that platform

uh no... we people didn't, we people elected Hillary by 3 million more votes than the derp brigade.  The EC abdicated their duty and elected the demagogue which is outside of the people's control.

yeah, it's not like you have historical precedent that some peoples vote only count for 3 fifth...

 And it's not like your country has a precedent for counting the voting populous as negative 6 million.

Let me guess: you're one of those banal American sh*t-heels who meets Europeans and says "Do you speak German? No? You're welcome." as if you personally stormed the beach at Normandy.

Stop trying to distract from America's enormous current shame by reflexively babbling half-remembered history from 75 years ago. In your own way, you people are every bit as embarrassing as Trump.

So reflexively babbling history from 75 years ago isn't a proper response to reflexively babbling history from 150 years ago?


No.
 
2017-07-17 11:45:13 AM  

docpeteyJ: Yeah, sometimes it's the family that do really stupid things that leave you wondering just WTF they were thinking.  I'm torn on whether or not the family in TFA played a role in what I see as a completely avoidable and pointless tragedy.

Last year, my Rescue Unit was dispatched on a teenager who, the parents reported, was alone in the house and having a severe anxiety attack*.No need for PD backup.  My partner and  I responded to find a distraught 16-year old sitting on the couch with a blanket on his lap. Absolutely we were in the mindset that this was a medical call, and nothing more. We see it all the time.

Did the parents mention that he had a history of suicide attempts?  That he wasn't actually having an anxiety attack, but had called them to say he wanted to kill himself?  THAT THERE WAS A LOADED, UNSECURED FIREARM IN THE HOUSE?  Which he told his parents he was in possession of?  No, they did not**.  And considering Utah has a reputation for NOT shooting first and asking questions later, I don't think their omission of these very important facts had anything to do with fear for their child's safety from over-enthusiastic cops.  Might just have had something to do with the fact that there was a meth lab in their shed.

What the parents DID do was that they reported it was an anxiety attack, stated it was an ongoing problem with him, and which (at least here) is treated as a medical problem, not a police one.  So off we went expecting to administer the appropriate medication and transport him for observation in the ER.  No need for PD backup.

Within five minutes of our arrival, where we found an obviously distraught teenaged male sitting on the couch with a blanket in his lap, he pulled out a loaded 9mm, put it to his head, and pulled the trigger.  My partner, who is damned lucky to be alive, was less than five feet away from him at the time, although he later needed medical care to remove a chunk of the kid's skull from his face.  When I heard that gunshot and saw him bleeding, my first impression was that he had been shot.

I suppose my point is that when you DO call 911, please be honest about the situation. If there really is an armed, suicidal person on scene, for the love of god, tell the dispatcher.  I'm not being an insensitive dick when I say that I'd rather see the cops go overboard and take down an armed person than risk one of my medics' lives.

*Yes, an actual anxiety attack is a medical emergency; the phsyiological response to severe anxiety can be very dangerous, with symptoms that include highly elevated heart rate and blood pressure, severe emotional and psychological stress (many patients describe the feeling as a combination of being scared out of their minds and experiencing a "sense of impending doom", both of which they have no control over) and, of course, suicidal ideation if it's a chronic, untreated issue.

**Oh, and for added assholishiness, the parents successfully sued the city, the county, the Fire Department, the dispatcher and me and my partner for negligence in not somehow preventing the death of their kid.  Americans are notoriously litigious, and seemingly incapable of taking personal responsibility for the self-inflicted stupidity in their lives.

[end slightly tangential not-so-CSB]


No offense, and I'm sure you and your team are wonderful people, but I would rather see a hundred first responders shot than one innocent victim just having a tough time. First responders know their lives are in danger every time they come in to work. That's part of the job description. Three people who work as emergency EMTs, firefighters, and police officers should expect that every call they go on might be their last, and be ok with that. On the other hand, NO ONE should feel like they are putting their lives (or the lives of loved ones) at risk just by calling for help. The line at which any first responder should be allowed to prioritize their lives over the lives of any other person needs to be a bright line somewhere just on the other side of "this person has taken clear and unambiguous actions to actively try to kill myself or others." And even then, it should be a difficult choice
 
2017-07-17 11:50:05 AM  

TOSViolation: Schmerd1948: you, sir, are an idiot. A heartless idiot. It was the girlfriend who called the suicide hotline. They called the police. The mom went up to tell the boy she loved him. Does any of that sound like the parents MURDERED the son and DESERVE to blah blah blah.?
Idiot.

Read it again.  The FATHER called the police to come help.

"To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help."

The kid had asked multiple times for them to just leave him the fark alone, but the dumbasses couldn't get that through their thick skulls.



Ok, lets just all get this straight. The ex called first.
But sometime before he got there, Austin spoke by phone with his former girlfriend. He became alarmingly upset, according to his parents, and mentioned a gun. Concerned about his state of mind, the woman called police at 9:19 p.m., asking them to check on his welfare.

Then police called the house and spoke with the father.
Minutes later, a Hingham police officer called Russell Reeves at home to ask if Austin had a gun with him.

Later, the father called back.
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.

So, the ex called first, but ultimately it was the father's call that dispatched the police. Are we clear yet?
 
2017-07-17 11:52:08 AM  

Ker_Thwap: Lusiphur: Except that a shiat ton of relatively recent research has shown that youth/adolescent suicide is much different than adult suicide, in that it is often not part of a significantly larger chain of mental health issues, and is often spontaneous and unlikely to be trusted if prevented the first time. Teenager brains aren't wired right - they're incredibly short-sighted and unstable, and can tip over from "totally ok" to "about to kill myself" in seconds, often with no real build-up or history of mental illness.

If this kid was left alone, chances are he would have gotten over it, went to therapy, and been a perfectly functional and normal adult.

Sure, sounds about right to me.  We're also dealing with age 26, with is just barely past the limit of when the male brain fully develops.  My point was more along the lines of we shouldn't treat suicide as a simple, easily solved matter.


In adult suicide? Sure. Completely agreed. In adolescent suicide? It's complicated, but not nearly as much so. Especially in a situation where there hasn't been any real sign of mental illness.

Which is not to say it should be taken lightly, but it is definitely not a matter for the police.
 
2017-07-17 11:54:43 AM  

Lusiphur: docpeteyJ: Yeah, sometimes it's the family that do really stupid things that leave you wondering just WTF they were thinking.  I'm torn on whether or not the family in TFA played a role in what I see as a completely avoidable and pointless tragedy.

Last year, my Rescue Unit was dispatched on a teenager who, the parents reported, was alone in the house and having a severe anxiety attack*.No need for PD backup.  My partner and  I responded to find a distraught 16-year old sitting on the couch with a blanket on his lap. Absolutely we were in the mindset that this was a medical call, and nothing more. We see it all the time.

Did the parents mention that he had a history of suicide attempts?  That he wasn't actually having an anxiety attack, but had called them to say he wanted to kill himself?  THAT THERE WAS A LOADED, UNSECURED FIREARM IN THE HOUSE?  Which he told his parents he was in possession of?  No, they did not**.  And considering Utah has a reputation for NOT shooting first and asking questions later, I don't think their omission of these very important facts had anything to do with fear for their child's safety from over-enthusiastic cops.  Might just have had something to do with the fact that there was a meth lab in their shed.

What the parents DID do was that they reported it was an anxiety attack, stated it was an ongoing problem with him, and which (at least here) is treated as a medical problem, not a police one.  So off we went expecting to administer the appropriate medication and transport him for observation in the ER.  No need for PD backup.

Within five minutes of our arrival, where we found an obviously distraught teenaged male sitting on the couch with a blanket in his lap, he pulled out a loaded 9mm, put it to his head, and pulled the trigger.  My partner, who is damned lucky to be alive, was less than five feet away from him at the time, although he later needed medical care to remove a chunk of the kid's skull from his face.  When I heard t ...


You really just typed that out and put it on the internet for people to see.

Look there is a whole host of ways to say that you are unhappy with the way first responders like police deal with problems, but categorically the statement:

No offense, and I'm sure you and your team are wonderful people, but I would rather see a hundred first responders shot than one innocent victim just having a tough time.

Tumblr is leaking and that septic, naive, self-medicating/diagnosing bullshiat is societally toxic.  You are a callous bigot if you think its ok to treat first-responders like meat on a 100-1 harm scenario.
Police need to follow better force-escalation guidelines but there is no need to be so cavalier with other First Responders.

Your mentality is what reinforces the believe that civilians are the enemy, because your assertion is disgusting and turned my stomach.  Please take a moment and re-evaluate that line and realize how inhumane it is.
 
2017-07-17 11:55:41 AM  

ToastmasterGeneral: Shadow Blasko: Nevercall the cops if worried about someone's mental health.

Just don't.

So who do you call?  Social services?  Guess what, potentially suicidal person with a firearm?  Social services is going to call the police.  As they should.  What if this guy had decided to kill his parents before killing himself?  Or his ex-girlfriend?

Now, none of this is to say that the police response in this case was proper.  It was horribly handled.

But at the same time, assuming that people with mental challenges and firearms will always be safe on their own is horribly misguided, too.


The events that caused this to happen were set in motion long before that day.  The kid obviously had problems and neither the parents nor the system did anything to solve them.  By the time you get the police involved, you are obviously worried about the situation escalating to the point that third parties will be harmed (and in this case, the police presence ensured that wasn't going to happen).  But to pin the blame on the authorities is misguided.  They are always going to be acting on imperfect information and it's folly to expect them to just take your word for it that "he's normally a good boy and just needs a nap."
 
2017-07-17 11:59:51 AM  

Ker_Thwap: ... and you pretend to know exactly how it played out?  We don't even know if the guy was aware of the full SWAT. It might have been a kindly officer (in armor), at a safe distance, trying to strategically de-escalate the situation.  While outside the multitude of pretty lights flashed.  You make it sound like the police lined him up against a wall with a firing ...

"Some wore camouflage and carried rifles. They set up bright lights to shine onto the house and drove a military-style vehicle into the backyard. Eventually, they broke seven upstairs windows so a mounted camera could look inside for Austin. "


Guess who didn't read the article?
 
2017-07-17 11:59:57 AM  

his name is my name too: lucksi: cman: lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more

Deutschland uber alles

Are you an expat living there, or are you native?

it's funny how you people know such things, yet elect a leader running on that platform

uh no... we people didn't, we people elected Hillary by 3 million more votes than the derp brigade.  The EC abdicated their duty and elected the demagogue which is outside of the people's control.


I got it! We call the cops for a wellness check on 45!
 
2017-07-17 12:03:44 PM  
Everyone needs to shut up about this. You'd do the same exact thing in this situation. If your kid is in a bad place due to a conversation with an ex, has a gun and wants to be left alone, as parent there's no farking way you're going to walk away and pretend everything is alright or that he'll just sleep it off. Even without a history of mental illness, you don't know what this person is going to do. You're just not going to sit back and do nothing. What would all you arm-chair psychiatrists be saying if they did do that and the kid shot himself anyway? "Stupid parents. Should have called someone." Well they called someone. The mother tried to communicate with her son. The father tried to call for help. They were in a no win situation here. Stop blaming the parents. fark all of you who are blaming the parents on this.

If there's any blame to be placed, and I'm not saying there is or isn't, but if there is the best you can say is that the cops did not respond appropriately. Where was the counselor/specialist/whatever they're called? Why were all those cops needed for one person with a gun? At most a patrol car should have been there with a mental health professional or at the very least an officer trained in dealing with mental health issues. For farks sake. These poor people lost their son and they're being made to be the farking bad guys here. fark all of you.
 
2017-07-17 12:04:43 PM  

bisi: Question for the EMS or other knowledgeable farkers: what is the best course of action when a person (family member, friend, whatever) is armed and threatening suicide or something similar, when you can't handle the situation by yourself but would still like them to remain un"helped" by police?

/It is still quite a leap from "person considering or talking about suicide" to "ex-person". Interesting article I read a while ago: https://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/opinionator/2013/06/02/a-simple-way-t​o-reduce-suicides/?referer=


I'm not EMS, but I date one.. :) I believe the EMS response is that they get the fark out of the way. EMS are (supposed to) protect themselves first and foremost. They are not supposed to risk their health no matter how catastrophic the situation. I'm not however sure of how many of them remember that...

I'm hoping actual EMS people have a better response, but I believe they're told (forcefully) that they must rely on the police to deal with armed patients.
 
2017-07-17 12:04:48 PM  

Lusiphur: No offense, and I'm sure you and your team are wonderful people, but I would rather see a hundred first responders shot than one innocent victim just having a tough time. First responders know their lives are in danger every time they come in to work. That's part of the job description.


No, it's not, at least where EMS personnel are involved.  While we do, indeed, risk our lives in order to save others, it's not a requirement that we sacrifice our safety in clearly dangerous situations.  A dead medic does no one any good. I consider sending in unarmed and unprotected medics into a house with an armed, suicidal person as stupid and irresponsible as asking them to run into a burning house with no protective gear.  I want them safe so they can continue to go about their jobs of saving people.

Three people who work as emergency EMTs, firefighters, and police officers should expect that every call they go on might be their last, and be ok with that. On the other hand, NO ONE should feel like they are putting their lives (or the lives of loved ones) at risk just by calling for help.

Very true.  Every time a call goes as stupidly bad as it did in TFA, it compromises the trust the public has in First Responders (be them cops or medics) to keep them safe.

The line at which any first responder should be allowed to prioritize their lives over the lives of any other person needs to be a bright line somewhere just on the other side of "this person has taken clear and unambiguous actions to actively try to kill myself or others." And even then, it should be a difficult choice

Did you miss the part where I explained that the parents of the victim LIED TO US about the circumstances? We went in having NO idea the patient was suicidal and armed.  If we had known, the protocol is to have PD stage nearby why a specially-trained hostage negotiator/psychologist attempts to "talk down" the patient.

Everyone wants a peaceful resolution.  But in the real world where I live, sometimes that doesn't happen, no matter how hard we try.  Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
 
2017-07-17 12:08:11 PM  

LordJiro: America's police system is broken. Many (if not most) cops have absolutely no idea how to deescalate a situation, and those that do often get reprimanded for talking people down instead of gunning down the "threat". And our legal system has repeatedly told police that if they even feel a twinge of 'fear', they're completely justified in killing someone, no matter how little of a threat was posed, or how cooperative the victim was.

The entire system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.


Not calling you a liar, but I would like a citation for this one.

And it's not just the legal system training them to react lethally to threats, it's their training and their protocols.

But that's not really relevant here since it was the kid that shot himself, not the police.

I suppose if you want to argue the amount of force they brought was symptomatic of this, I won't argue that, but let's respect the fact that all signs at this point lead to a suicidal kid living up to the threat he gave his parents if they wouldn't leave him alone and backed him into a corner. They did exactly what he asked them not to when the mom showed up at his door and then by calling the police. This is a failure of parenting as well as police overreaction. SWAT and Armored vehicles all because you couldn't give your emotionally distraught kid a little breathing room. Totally worth it.
 
2017-07-17 12:10:54 PM  

alitaki: pedrop357: his name is my name too: lucksi: cman: lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more

Deutschland uber alles

Are you an expat living there, or are you native?

it's funny how you people know such things, yet elect a leader running on that platform

uh no... we people didn't, we people elected Hillary by 3 million more votes than the derp brigade.  The EC abdicated their duty and elected the demagogue which is outside of the people's control.

What duty did they abdicate?

Preventing an unqualified person from assuming the office? That's pretty big on their To-Do list.


It is?
 
2017-07-17 12:11:27 PM  

Cthulhu Theory: LordJiro: America's police system is broken. Many (if not most) cops have absolutely no idea how to deescalate a situation, and those that do often get reprimanded for talking people down instead of gunning down the "threat". And our legal system has repeatedly told police that if they even feel a twinge of 'fear', they're completely justified in killing someone, no matter how little of a threat was posed, or how cooperative the victim was.

The entire system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

Not calling you a liar, but I would like a citation for this one.

And it's not just the legal system training them to react lethally to threats, it's their training and their protocols.

But that's not really relevant here since it was the kid that shot himself, not the police.

I suppose if you want to argue the amount of force they brought was symptomatic of this, I won't argue that, but let's respect the fact that all signs at this point lead to a suicidal kid living up to the threat he gave his parents if they wouldn't leave him alone and backed him into a corner. They did exactly what he asked them not to when the mom showed up at his door and then by calling the police. This is a failure of parenting as well as police overreaction. SWAT and Armored vehicles all because you couldn't give your emotionally distraught kid a little breathing room. Totally worth it.


There was an article on here a couple months ago where a cop talked a guy down, and was reprimanded for not shooting the guy.
 
2017-07-17 12:11:28 PM  

Ker_Thwap: bisi: FTFA: "... carpe diem, seize the day - was tattooed in artful letters on his chest. His dog, Faith..." - Yeah, there definitely was some build up to this.
But a police seige ist not the best course of action for a person threatening suicide.

I've already granted that calling in a tank and multiple SWAT teams was an over-reaction.  We, of course have no idea what the guy said to the first responders.

I agree that a police siege is not the best course for a "reasonable" person threatening suicide.  Wait, what?

We weren't there.  There was an unstable person threatening suicide with a loaded gun.  What is the proper response in that situation?  Would you walk into that room, unarmed and unarmored, and try to talk him down?   Just walk away and let him sleep it off, allowing him to keep his gun, and potentially murder his ex girlfriend the next day?  Maybe they keep a bunch of disposable cops on store in your hometown?  Yeah, send in Officer Fred, he's old and has damned little to live for these days.

It then just become a matter of scale.  Two armored officers would have been fine, but three would have been bad?  How about an even dozen, if by chance the guy talked about taking others with him?  So, yes, at some point it's a bad look for the local PD when they call in a friggin tank.  But let's not pretend that the over cautious response is what killed the guy.


Fortunately, the only two options are either:

1) surround the house with literally hundreds of armed rifleman, or
2) walk in unarmed

There simply no other alternatives.
 
2017-07-17 12:17:41 PM  

casual disregard: What is the primary purpose of police? Beyond paperwork and investigations, it's not protecting the public. No, the primary purpose of the police is to neutralize threats. Insofar as the police are concerned, and the people who voted in a police force with that modus operandi, it can only be seen as mission accomplished.


Neutralizing a threat is a form of public protection. You seem to be under the illusion that protecting the public means they willingly sacrifice themselves for the public, where that's not the case. They're trained to protect themselves first, and by keeping themselves safe they can keep the public safe.

casual disregard: If you own guns the police will kill you if they perceive you as a threat. If you are having a mental breakdown the police will kill you if they perceive you as a threat. If you are nonwhite the police will kill you if they perceive you as a threat (if you won't listen to me, at least give Chris Rock a chance, might just save your life). Heck sometimes they even shoot white people, but they try to keep it out of the news (offer may not be valid in Zimbabwe).


The body count of whites is twice as high as blacks and as high as all non-whites combined.

casual disregard: How "duh" can we get on this? How many more times do we have to see a police killing before we simply accept it not only as reality but as the political will of the democratic republican populace? I'd bet a dollar at the casino that this victim's parents voted for the very politicians that enabled this sort of environment to emerge. But not more than a dollar. I dislike games of chance even when rigged in my favor.


This wasn't a police killing. I will agree that by now it should be common knowledge that police are literally trained to defend themselves against even perceived threats with up to lethal force. Also, at the risk of being labelled a bootlicker, cops are actually people too and people have a right to self-defense. Personally, I believe the police have way too much leeway and it needs to be reined in.
 
2017-07-17 12:20:01 PM  

mrinfoguy: lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more

Super smart guy! You should know how countries are designated as first,.second, and third world! Because your fathers thought it was a good idea to eradicate an entire race of people! Has enough time gone by that your collective guilt and bare sense of national pride allows you to sit on your shiatter, inspect your feces ad nauseum, and thumb your nose at the prospect that the United States is better at being jack booted thugs than the brownshirts ever were?


They really do have weird toilets in Germany. It's like a little shelf for your poop to sit on.
 
2017-07-17 12:20:26 PM  

Cthulhu Theory: LordJiro: America's police system is broken. Many (if not most) cops have absolutely no idea how to deescalate a situation, and those that do often get reprimanded for talking people down instead of gunning down the "threat". And our legal system has repeatedly told police that if they even feel a twinge of 'fear', they're completely justified in killing someone, no matter how little of a threat was posed, or how cooperative the victim was.

The entire system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

Not calling you a liar, but I would like a citation for this one.

And it's not just the legal system training them to react lethally to threats, it's their training and their protocols.

But that's not really relevant here since it was the kid that shot himself, not the police.

I suppose if you want to argue the amount of force they brought was symptomatic of this, I won't argue that, but let's respect the fact that all signs at this point lead to a suicidal kid living up to the threat he gave his parents if they wouldn't leave him alone and backed him into a corner. They did exactly what he asked them not to when the mom showed up at his door and then by calling the police. This is a failure of parenting as well as police overreaction. SWAT and Armored vehicles all because you couldn't give your emotionally distraught kid a little breathing room. Totally worth it.


Hhttps://www.google.com/amp/www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/amp/west-vir​gi​nia-cop-fired-after-not-shooting-suicidal-man-sues-n756976
 
2017-07-17 12:20:44 PM  

Nidiot: doglover: cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person

They just shot an unarmed blonde white Australian woman in Minneapolis, after she called them for help http://www.startribune.com/woman-killed-in-officer-involved-shoot​ing-in-south-minneapolis/434782213/#1 so you have to update that advice. Skin tone is now irrelevant.

Don't call the police unless you want someone shot.


What the ever loving hell is wrong with cops in this country?!?  If you are a cop and these stories don't make you seriously sick, angry or worse... and if you don't say or do anything about it... then you are just as big of a piece of shiat that these guys are.  Period.

And if you have a body cam on your person and it's not ON and RECORDING for any reason when incidents like this go down, then you are essentially admitting guilt and should be locked up until proven otherwise.

Oh, I know this will bring the 'innocent until proven guilty' wonks out of the woodwork...  But cops are basically put in charge of upholding the law.  By doing so you are NOT above that law and you ARE held to a higher standard than those who the law is designed to protect.  There needs to be some form of consequence for those that don't and we're long overdue for this type of justice reform.
 
2017-07-17 12:22:21 PM  

Lusiphur: No offense, and I'm sure you and your team are wonderful people, but I would rather see a hundred first responders shot than one innocent victim just having a tough time. First responders know their lives are in danger every time they come in to work. That's part of the job description. Three people who work as emergency EMTs, firefighters, and police officers should expect that every call they go on might be their last, and be ok with that. On the other hand, NO ONE should feel like they are putting their lives (or the lives of loved ones) at risk just by calling for help. The line at which any first responder should be allowed to prioritize their lives over the lives of any other person needs to be a bright line somewhere just on the other side of "this person has taken clear and unambiguous actions to actively try to kill myself or others." And even then, it should be a difficult choice


I can see your point and other sides as well.  I work with people who are suicidal or have other major issues with rape and so and I know that my choice leads to many sorts of dangers.  I train first responders and let them know that they need to be aware when they approach any sort of situation they need to ensure that there aren't weapons handy.  Even in a situation where it's a spousal abuse situation, the victim may easily go on the attack to defend the person who attacked them.  "Don't turn your back on the victim" in a spousal situation is important.  When anger switches to anxiety the situation gets more dangerous.

In the situation docpeteyj talked about with an anxiety attack situation there is failure on the part of everyone overall especially the people who trained them.  People who are having anxiety attacks are far more dangerous overall than people who are angry.  The first thing that should have been done is to deal with the blanket on the person's lap.  I teach responders to first evaluate everything that's in close proximity to the person like heavy objects or coverings.  This is something so very incredibly basic I'm appalled that few are trained to be that situationally aware.
 
2017-07-17 12:23:50 PM  

Lusiphur: No offense, and I'm sure you and your team are wonderful people, but I would rather see a hundred first responders shot than one innocent victim just having a tough time. First responders know their lives are in danger every time they come in to work. That's part of the job description. Three people who work as emergency EMTs, firefighters, and police officers should expect that every call they go on might be their last, and be ok with that. On the other hand, NO ONE should feel like they are putting their lives (or the lives of loved ones) at risk just by calling for help. The line at which any first responder should be allowed to prioritize their lives over the lives of any other person needs to be a bright line somewhere just on the other side of "this person has taken clear and unambiguous actions to actively try to kill myself or others." And even then, it should be a difficult choice


The moment they shoot that first person, they've overstepped the bounds of innocence into guilt and a lethal threat. You cannot blame police for responding in kind at this point. However, I do agree, it shouldn't be a police shooting first kind of situation 95% of the time, and it shouldn't be an easy decision for them.
 
2017-07-17 12:32:00 PM  

Thingster: Cthulhu Theory: LordJiro: America's police system is broken. Many (if not most) cops have absolutely no idea how to deescalate a situation, and those that do often get reprimanded for talking people down instead of gunning down the "threat". And our legal system has repeatedly told police that if they even feel a twinge of 'fear', they're completely justified in killing someone, no matter how little of a threat was posed, or how cooperative the victim was.

The entire system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

Not calling you a liar, but I would like a citation for this one.

And it's not just the legal system training them to react lethally to threats, it's their training and their protocols.

But that's not really relevant here since it was the kid that shot himself, not the police.

I suppose if you want to argue the amount of force they brought was symptomatic of this, I won't argue that, but let's respect the fact that all signs at this point lead to a suicidal kid living up to the threat he gave his parents if they wouldn't leave him alone and backed him into a corner. They did exactly what he asked them not to when the mom showed up at his door and then by calling the police. This is a failure of parenting as well as police overreaction. SWAT and Armored vehicles all because you couldn't give your emotionally distraught kid a little breathing room. Totally worth it.

There was an article on here a couple months ago where a cop talked a guy down, and was reprimanded for not shooting the guy.


Is this the one?
 
2017-07-17 12:32:20 PM  

Aidan: bisi: Question for the EMS or other knowledgeable farkers: what is the best course of action when a person (family member, friend, whatever) is armed and threatening suicide or something similar, when you can't handle the situation by yourself but would still like them to remain un"helped" by police?

/It is still quite a leap from "person considering or talking about suicide" to "ex-person". Interesting article I read a while ago: https://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/opinionator/2013/06/02/a-simple-way-t​o-reduce-suicides/?referer=

I'm not EMS, but I date one.. :) I believe the EMS response is that they get the fark out of the way. EMS are (supposed to) protect themselves first and foremost. They are not supposed to risk their health no matter how catastrophic the situation. I'm not however sure of how many of them remember that...

I'm hoping actual EMS people have a better response, but I believe they're told (forcefully) that they must rely on the police to deal with armed patients.


As well they should.
But when the only response in the police's repertoire is to "neutralize the threat" as efficiently and quickly as possible this becomes a no-win situation.
When you have a jumper, it is often possible to talk him down or prevent him from jumping by using non lethal force. And studies show that about half the time there won't be a second attempt.
But when you start moving in on him from all directions, he will feel forced to make a decision.

Why is this so much different when the person is armed? Suicidal does not automatically equal homicidal. As evidenced by the fact, that the kid didn't go Tony Montana on the cops, even when pressured.
 
2017-07-17 12:34:05 PM  
This is what we get as a country. In which, even the Barney Fifes can get a blank check via homeland security
to buy used or unused war equipment for a podunk  sheriffs  outfit.

/armed police I get, but swat an a bearcat saying they where over-armed for the situation is to big of an understatement
 
2017-07-17 12:34:39 PM  

xalres: ONLY call the cops if required to do so for an insurance claim. They are not there to help.


I tried that once when someone drove thru our property.  Cop showed up, looked at the damage and said, "What do you want me to do about it?".

Completely worthless.  He probably went back out to the main drag to write more speeding tickets.

aka "Glorified Meter Maid".

/rant off
 
2017-07-17 12:34:41 PM  
So they think have identified the Minnesota cop who killed the Australian.
http://kstp.com/news/mohamed-noor-officer-involved-shooting-justine-d​i​amond-fatal-minneapolis-shooting/4544324/#.WWzXWMZhnM0.twitter

So it's like a bizzarro world version of the usual police shooting.
 
2017-07-17 12:39:12 PM  

Splinthar: Lusiphur: docpeteyJ: Yeah, sometimes it's the family that do really stupid things that leave you wondering just WTF they were thinking.  I'm torn on whether or not the family in TFA played a role in what I see as a completely avoidable and pointless tragedy.

Last year, my Rescue Unit was dispatched on a teenager who, the parents reported, was alone in the house and having a severe anxiety attack*.No need for PD backup.  My partner and  I responded to find a distraught 16-year old sitting on the couch with a blanket on his lap. Absolutely we were in the mindset that this was a medical call, and nothing more. We see it all the time.

Did the parents mention that he had a history of suicide attempts?  That he wasn't actually having an anxiety attack, but had called them to say he wanted to kill himself?  THAT THERE WAS A LOADED, UNSECURED FIREARM IN THE HOUSE?  Which he told his parents he was in possession of?  No, they did not**.  And considering Utah has a reputation for NOT shooting first and asking questions later, I don't think their omission of these very important facts had anything to do with fear for their child's safety from over-enthusiastic cops.  Might just have had something to do with the fact that there was a meth lab in their shed.

What the parents DID do was that they reported it was an anxiety attack, stated it was an ongoing problem with him, and which (at least here) is treated as a medical problem, not a police one.  So off we went expecting to administer the appropriate medication and transport him for observation in the ER.  No need for PD backup.

Within five minutes of our arrival, where we found an obviously distraught teenaged male sitting on the couch with a blanket in his lap, he pulled out a loaded 9mm, put it to his head, and pulled the trigger.  My partner, who is damned lucky to be alive, was less than five feet away from him at the time, although he later needed medical care to remove a chunk of the kid's skull from his face.  When I heard t ...

You really just typed that out and put it on the internet for people to see.

Look there is a whole host of ways to say that you are unhappy with the way first responders like police deal with problems, but categorically the statement:

No offense, and I'm sure you and your team are wonderful people, but I would rather see a hundred first responders shot than one innocent victim just having a tough time.

Tumblr is leaking and that septic, naive, self-medicating/diagnosing bullshiat is societally toxic.  You are a callous bigot if you think its ok to treat first-responders like meat on a 100-1 harm scenario.
Police need to follow better force-escalation guidelines but there is no need to be so cavalier with other First Responders.

Your mentality is what reinforces the believe that civilians are the enemy, because your assertion is disgusting and turned my stomach.  Please take a moment and re-evaluate that line and realize how inhumane it is.


Triggered much? Last year (2016), 135 police officers were killed in the line of duty, including traffic fatalities. This year (2017) SO FAR the police have killed 523 people. I don't know where you get Tumblr it self-medicating/self-diagnosing from, other than you just have a list of Boogeyman words you spot when you're confronted by opinions you don't like, but it seems like the police have made it clear that they value their lives way above the lives of anyone else. I'm not reinforcing shiat - the police have already made it clear that they see "civilians" as the enemy, and if it keeps going, it won't be long until EMTs start seeing themselves as combat medics and carrying guns. And for the record, you're all farking civilians. The fact that you would even think to use that word tells me exactly what kind of power-tripping asshole you are.

At the end of the day, you, as a first responder, have pledged to sacrifice your life for the life of another if it comes down to it. At that point, I don't see why the ratio matters. Especially since I'm not advocating for violence against first responders. Merely pointing out that if it came down to a choice of kill an EMT or kill a mentally handicapped man with a gun that could be talked down if he was given half a chance, the choice is a no brainer, and I would make it every time.

If that man with a gun opened for in a crowd, or even opened fire on first responders and didn't respond to de-escalation, then the opposite choice would become a no brainer. But until the is actual, immediate, and unambiguous threat to the safety of others first and the safety of responders second, the "civilian" gets priority. Every. Single. Time.
 
2017-07-17 12:44:25 PM  

kcfarker: Nidiot: doglover: cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person

They just shot an unarmed blonde white Australian woman in Minneapolis, after she called them for help http://www.startribune.com/woman-killed-in-officer-involved-shoot​ing-in-south-minneapolis/434782213/#1 so you have to update that advice. Skin tone is now irrelevant.

Don't call the police unless you want someone shot.

What the ever loving hell is wrong with cops in this country?!?  If you are a cop and these stories don't make you seriously sick, angry or worse... and if you don't say or do anything about it... then you are just as big of a piece of shiat that these guys are.  Period.

And if you have a body cam on your person and it's not ON and RECORDING for any reason when incidents like this go down, then you are essentially admitting guilt and should be locked up until proven otherwise.

Oh, I know this will bring the 'innocent until proven guilty' wonks out of the woodwork...  But cops are basically put in charge of upholding the law.  By doing so you are NOT above that law and you ARE held to a higher standard than those who the law is designed to protect.  There needs to be some form of consequence for those that don't and we're long overdue for this type of justice reform.


I doubt a body cam would have helped anything except providing audio of the altercation. The article states the woman was shot by the passenger thru the driver's door which means both officers were in the car, and so video would've just shown dash footage. The audio would help, sure, but we could have got the same from dash cam footage I would assume.

As for the shooting itself, I'm going to hazard a guess and suggest the woman wasn't getting the response she expected from the police, got belligerent, which the passenger cop took as a threat, and shot her. I can't imagine a way in which lethal force would have been an acceptable response here unless she had a knife (she's not a gun owner according to the article) so this is clearly something that should be punished severely. Even if she were punching the other cop in the face, they have other tools to subdue her that don't mean she should be shot.

But then I remember that I'm armed with knowledge the police weren't, and they could easily claim they thought she might have a gun, and thus lethal force becomes acceptable because their training teaches them to assume the worst until they can verify the person isn't a threat. And here we are, another unnecessary corpse not only most likely allowed by the system, but potentially encouraged by the system and it's procedures.
 
2017-07-17 12:44:59 PM  

Cubicle Jockey: So they think have identified the Minnesota cop who killed the Australian.
http://kstp.com/news/mohamed-noor-officer-involved-shooting-justine-di​amond-fatal-minneapolis-shooting/4544324/#.WWzXWMZhnM0.twitter

So it's like a bizzarro world version of the usual police shooting.


They always ID the scary brown guy. Always.

But here's the issue now: the guy doesn't get fired and charged and all everyone will be up in arms because dead blonde.

If he gets charged and convicted, then it's going to be racism since the brown guy was charged for killing the blonde woman when white cops are rarely charged for shooting brown men.

This is the case needed to really bring accountability to police shootings, but I can't wait for the cognitive dissonance over the potential for accountability for police shooting of brown men might come from the shooting of a white woman by a brown man.
 
2017-07-17 12:47:38 PM  

docpeteyJ: Lusiphur: No offense, and I'm sure you and your team are wonderful people, but I would rather see a hundred first responders shot than one innocent victim just having a tough time. First responders know their lives are in danger every time they come in to work. That's part of the job description.

No, it's not, at least where EMS personnel are involved.  While we do, indeed, risk our lives in order to save others, it's not a requirement that we sacrifice our safety in clearly dangerous situations.  A dead medic does no one any good. I consider sending in unarmed and unprotected medics into a house with an armed, suicidal person as stupid and irresponsible as asking them to run into a burning house with no protective gear.  I want them safe so they can continue to go about their jobs of saving people.

Three people who work as emergency EMTs, firefighters, and police officers should expect that every call they go on might be their last, and be ok with that. On the other hand, NO ONE should feel like they are putting their lives (or the lives of loved ones) at risk just by calling for help.

Very true.  Every time a call goes as stupidly bad as it did in TFA, it compromises the trust the public has in First Responders (be them cops or medics) to keep them safe.

The line at which any first responder should be allowed to prioritize their lives over the lives of any other person needs to be a bright line somewhere just on the other side of "this person has taken clear and unambiguous actions to actively try to kill myself or others." And even then, it should be a difficult choice

Did you miss the part where I explained that the parents of the victim LIED TO US about the circumstances? We went in having NO idea the patient was suicidal and armed.  If we had known, the protocol is to have PD stage nearby why a specially-trained hostage negotiator/psychologist attempts to "talk down" the patient.

Everyone wants a peaceful resolution.  But in the real world where I live, sometimes that doesn't happen, no matter how hard we try.  Damned if we do, damned if we don't.


No, it's not, at least where EMS personnel are involved. While we do, indeed, risk our lives in order to save others, it's not a requirement that we sacrifice our safety in clearly dangerous situations. A dead medic does no one any good. I consider sending in unarmed and unprotected medics into a house with an armed, suicidal person as stupid and irresponsible as asking them to run into a burning house with no protective gear. I want them safe so they can continue to go about their jobs of saving people.

Honestly, I don't want dead medics either. But again, in a situation where it's one or the other, the choice isn't difficult for me. Should the parents have told you the kid was suicidal? Probably. Should they have told you he had a gun? I wouldn't be willing to take that risk. Yes, it could end with a trained negotiator talking him down. But it's just as likely, if not more, that instead of a trained negotiator and medical care, the kid would have gotten a flashbamg, battering ram, and 10 bullets to the chest. And until those odds improve dramatically, I'm not going to change my opinion.

I'm sorry this puts you and your team at risk, I really am. That's not your fault, and you shouldn't have to bear that responsibility. But that IS the world we live in. And as long as we do, I'm going to lean heavily on the side of people being shot by guys in body armor than on the side of the guys in body armor and the people that work with them.
 
2017-07-17 12:49:04 PM  

docpeteyJ: Lusiphur: No offense, and I'm sure you and your team are wonderful people, but I would rather see a hundred first responders shot than one innocent victim just having a tough time. First responders know their lives are in danger every time they come in to work. That's part of the job description.

No, it's not, at least where EMS personnel are involved.  While we do, indeed, risk our lives in order to save others, it's not a requirement that we sacrifice our safety in clearly dangerous situations.  A dead medic does no one any good. I consider sending in unarmed and unprotected medics into a house with an armed, suicidal person as stupid and irresponsible as asking them to run into a burning house with no protective gear.  I want them safe so they can continue to go about their jobs of saving people.

Three people who work as emergency EMTs, firefighters, and police officers should expect that every call they go on might be their last, and be ok with that. On the other hand, NO ONE should feel like they are putting their lives (or the lives of loved ones) at risk just by calling for help.

Very true.  Every time a call goes as stupidly bad as it did in TFA, it compromises the trust the public has in First Responders (be them cops or medics) to keep them safe.

The line at which any first responder should be allowed to prioritize their lives over the lives of any other person needs to be a bright line somewhere just on the other side of "this person has taken clear and unambiguous actions to actively try to kill myself or others." And even then, it should be a difficult choice

Did you miss the part where I explained that the parents of the victim LIED TO US about the circumstances? We went in having NO idea the patient was suicidal and armed.  If we had known, the protocol is to have PD stage nearby why a specially-trained hostage negotiator/psychologist attempts to "talk down" the patient.


Given what we saw happen here, what the parents of the victim in your case did was the right thing to do unless they were familiar with your protocol of sending in a psychologist.

And the part of your protocol that has the police involved at all is still a problem.  There should be no police called, they shouldn't be nearby, they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the scene.

Now, it's NOT your fault that lying to 911 or just not calling anybody is the right thing to do.  The fault is with police training and procedure.  But at this point trust in the police is rightly compromised, they CANNOT be trusted.

I don't want medics hurt either, and it's not doing anybody any good if they are.  But the police are incapable of handling medical/mental health situations properly, and will continue to be incapable of it until fundamental changes are made in police training.

If you are in a position to have any control over your procedure, you should seriously consider revising it to get the psychologist/negotiator on your staff and remove police from involvement.
 
2017-07-17 12:50:38 PM  
You, admins, why has there yet to be a green on the Australian lady getting shot?

There have been several redlinks with discussions already in them
 
2017-07-17 12:50:50 PM  

Lusiphur: Splinthar: Lusiphur: docpeteyJ: Yeah, sometimes it's the family that do really stupid things that leave you wondering just WTF they were thinking.  I'm torn on whether or not the family in TFA played a role in what I see as a completely avoidable and pointless tragedy.

Last year, my Rescue Unit was dispatched on a teenager who, the parents reported, was alone in the house and having a severe anxiety attack*.No need for PD backup.  My partner and  I responded to find a distraught 16-year old sitting on the couch with a blanket on his lap. Absolutely we were in the mindset that this was a medical call, and nothing more. We see it all the time.

Did the parents mention that he had a history of suicide attempts?  That he wasn't actually having an anxiety attack, but had called them to say he wanted to kill himself?  THAT THERE WAS A LOADED, UNSECURED FIREARM IN THE HOUSE?  Which he told his parents he was in possession of?  No, they did not**.  And considering Utah has a reputation for NOT shooting first and asking questions later, I don't think their omission of these very important facts had anything to do with fear for their child's safety from over-enthusiastic cops.  Might just have had something to do with the fact that there was a meth lab in their shed.

What the parents DID do was that they reported it was an anxiety attack, stated it was an ongoing problem with him, and which (at least here) is treated as a medical problem, not a police one.  So off we went expecting to administer the appropriate medication and transport him for observation in the ER.  No need for PD backup.

Within five minutes of our arrival, where we found an obviously distraught teenaged male sitting on the couch with a blanket in his lap, he pulled out a loaded 9mm, put it to his head, and pulled the trigger.  My partner, who is damned lucky to be alive, was less than five feet away from him at the time, although he later needed medical care to remove a chunk of the kid's skull from his face.  When I heard t ...

You really just typed that out and put it on the internet for people to see.

Look there is a whole host of ways to say that you are unhappy with the way first responders like police deal with problems, but categorically the statement:

No offense, and I'm sure you and your team are wonderful people, but I would rather see a hundred first responders shot than one innocent victim just having a tough time.

Tumblr is leaking and that septic, naive, self-medicating/diagnosing bullshiat is societally toxic.  You are a callous bigot if you think its ok to treat first-responders like meat on a 100-1 harm scenario.
Police need to follow better force-escalation guidelines but there is no need to be so cavalier with other First Responders.

Your mentality is what reinforces the believe that civilians are the enemy, because your assertion is disgusting and turned my stomach.  Please take a moment and re-evaluate that line and realize how inhumane it is.

Triggered much? Last year (2016), 135 police officers were killed in the line of duty, including traffic fatalities. This year (2017) SO FAR the police have killed 523 people. I don't know where you get Tumblr it self-medicating/self-diagnosing from, other than you just have a list of Boogeyman words you spot when you're confronted by opinions you don't like, but it seems like the police have made it clear that they value their lives way above the lives of anyone else. I'm not reinforcing shiat - the police have already made it clear that they see "civilians" as the enemy, and if it keeps going, it won't be long until EMTs start seeing themselves as combat medics and carrying guns. And for the record, you're all farking civilians. The fact that you would even think to use that word tells me exactly what kind of power-tripping asshole you are.

At the end of the day, you, as a first responder, have pledged to sacrifice your life for the life of another if it comes down to it. At that point, I don't see why the ratio matters. Especially since I'm not advocating for violence against first responders. Merely pointing out that if it came down to a choice of kill an EMT or kill a mentally handicapped man with a gun that could be talked down if he was given half a chance, the choice is a no brainer, and I would make it every time.

If that man with a gun opened for in a crowd, or even opened fire on first responders and didn't respond to de-escalation, then the opposite choice would become a no brainer. But until the is actual, immediate, and unambiguous threat to the safety of others first and the safety of responders second, the "civilian" gets priority. Every. Single. Time.


This should not be an either-or situation. An EMT is unarmed and has every right to get out of dodge.

This is not about public servants "sacrificing" themselves. It is about the police protecting the citizens and not just themselves from the citizens. They have the means, so they should have the responsibility.
 
2017-07-17 12:51:00 PM  

Cthulhu Theory: Lusiphur: No offense, and I'm sure you and your team are wonderful people, but I would rather see a hundred first responders shot than one innocent victim just having a tough time. First responders know their lives are in danger every time they come in to work. That's part of the job description. Three people who work as emergency EMTs, firefighters, and police officers should expect that every call they go on might be their last, and be ok with that. On the other hand, NO ONE should feel like they are putting their lives (or the lives of loved ones) at risk just by calling for help. The line at which any first responder should be allowed to prioritize their lives over the lives of any other person needs to be a bright line somewhere just on the other side of "this person has taken clear and unambiguous actions to actively try to kill myself or others." And even then, it should be a difficult choice

The moment they shoot that first person, they've overstepped the bounds of innocence into guilt and a lethal threat. You cannot blame police for responding in kind at this point. However, I do agree, it shouldn't be a police shooting first kind of situation 95% of the time, and it shouldn't be an easy decision for them.


You will get no argument from me there, though I will say that I would still prioritize capture instead of kill if at all possible.

Really, I'm not saying we should send EMTs and firemen into a meat grinder. But I am saying that there is too much of an attitude right that we need to air in the side of caution for police and other first responders, and my point is that that is the wrong side of the scale to put a thumb on. Every process and procedure should be built on the assumption that the first responder is the least valuable life in the equation.
 
2017-07-17 12:53:10 PM  

Lusiphur: Triggered much? Last year (2016), 135 police officers were killed in the line of duty, including traffic fatalities. This year (2017) SO FAR the police have killed 523 people. I don't know where you get Tumblr it self-medicating/self-diagnosing from, other than you just have a list of Boogeyman words you spot when you're confronted by opinions you don't like, but it seems like the police have made it clear that they value their lives way above the lives of anyone else. I'm not reinforcing shiat - the police have already made it clear that they see "civilians" as the enemy, and if it keeps going, it won't be long until EMTs start seeing themselves as combat medics and carrying guns. And for the record, you're all farking civilians.


They are literally trained to treat every traffic stop as a potential life or death situation. Civilians are not "the enemy" as you put it, but potential threats to their life. There's a fundamental difference there I think you need to consider.
 
2017-07-17 12:57:07 PM  

Cthulhu Theory: Lusiphur: Triggered much? Last year (2016), 135 police officers were killed in the line of duty, including traffic fatalities. This year (2017) SO FAR the police have killed 523 people. I don't know where you get Tumblr it self-medicating/self-diagnosing from, other than you just have a list of Boogeyman words you spot when you're confronted by opinions you don't like, but it seems like the police have made it clear that they value their lives way above the lives of anyone else. I'm not reinforcing shiat - the police have already made it clear that they see "civilians" as the enemy, and if it keeps going, it won't be long until EMTs start seeing themselves as combat medics and carrying guns. And for the record, you're all farking civilians.

They are literally trained to treat every traffic stop as a potential life or death situation. Civilians are not "the enemy" as you put it, but potential threats to their life. There's a fundamental difference there I think you need to consider.


Occupational hazard. Do cops not know that going in?
At what point does it start to become self serving?
 
2017-07-17 12:57:48 PM  

Cubicle Jockey: So they think have identified the Minnesota cop who killed the Australian.
http://kstp.com/news/mohamed-noor-officer-involved-shooting-justine-di​amond-fatal-minneapolis-shooting/4544324/#.WWzXWMZhnM0.twitter

So it's like a bizzarro world version of the usual police shooting.


black cop killing white lady? he's going to jail.

not even snark, that is the status quo in the US. white cops can shoot s many unarmed black kids as they like, but a black cop shooting a white kid gets 40 years...
 
2017-07-17 01:00:10 PM  

trappedspirit: Millennium: Arachnophobe: It wasn't the parents that called, it was the ex-girlfriend.

[img.fark.net image 150x150]

The parents did not make the call. No word on whether the boyfriend played the "I'll kill myself if you leave" card, but if he did then there's no cause to blame the ex either; calling the cops is what you do in that situation.

WTF

To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.


So that was strange, because the article clearly states the ex called. That's why I mentioned the Bears Repeating.

Looking back over the article, I now see a clearer picture: the police were called twice. Rough timeline:

- Breakup happens.
- Ex calls police, concerned about boyfriend
- Police call home to check on welfare. Dad checks his guns. Boyfriend is not home yet.
- Dad says his guns are fine. Before he checks boyfriend's gun, boyfriend arrives home. Dad says everything's okay, hangs up.
- Boyfriend and parents talk.
- Boyfriend says disturbing stuff. Dad gats scared and calls police back.

So from the police's perspective, the situation has very suddenly changed drastically. The man they'd been told wasn't in a stable state of mind, but previously been assured was fine at the moment, has very suddenly turned up suicidal. Not only this, but he has an additional gun that had previously not been accounted for at the scene. That's when the decision was made to send in SWAT.

Still not the greatest decision in the history of law enforcement, but not as egregious as many have made it out to be. From the information the police had on hand, a fairly standard breakup had very suddenly taken a much nastier turn than was typical, involving heretofore unknown weapons and incomplete information in previous reports.

I apologize for my role in the misinderstanding here.
 
2017-07-17 01:02:32 PM  

Jesus McSordid: cman:
If someone was trying to break into my place, I'm gonna call the cops. They do have their uses even tho many of them can be assholes.

Even that isn't safe, apparently.


Interesting how there's been zero mention of this on local "news"
 
2017-07-17 01:03:28 PM  

Thingster: Cubicle Jockey: So they think have identified the Minnesota cop who killed the Australian.
http://kstp.com/news/mohamed-noor-officer-involved-shooting-justine-di​amond-fatal-minneapolis-shooting/4544324/#.WWzXWMZhnM0.twitter

So it's like a bizzarro world version of the usual police shooting.

They always ID the scary brown guy. Always.

But here's the issue now: the guy doesn't get fired and charged and all everyone will be up in arms because dead blonde.

If he gets charged and convicted, then it's going to be racism since the brown guy was charged for killing the blonde woman when white cops are rarely charged for shooting brown men.

This is the case needed to really bring accountability to police shootings, but I can't wait for the cognitive dissonance over the potential for accountability for police shooting of brown men might come from the shooting of a white woman by a brown man.


This is the stupidest race baiting bullshiat I've seen in a while. The cop(s) will probably claim they thought she was reaching for a weapon and get away with a slap on the wrist. Race is an irrelevant factor here unless you're a racist POS.
 
2017-07-17 01:06:11 PM  
Yet again American police prove that you should only ever call them if you need someone dead. These apes don't solve problems.
 
2017-07-17 01:07:06 PM  

cman: You, admins, why has there yet to be a green on the Australian lady getting shot murdered?

There have been several redlinks with discussions already in them


FTFY
 
2017-07-17 01:10:09 PM  

bisi: Cthulhu Theory: Lusiphur: Triggered much? Last year (2016), 135 police officers were killed in the line of duty, including traffic fatalities. This year (2017) SO FAR the police have killed 523 people. I don't know where you get Tumblr it self-medicating/self-diagnosing from, other than you just have a list of Boogeyman words you spot when you're confronted by opinions you don't like, but it seems like the police have made it clear that they value their lives way above the lives of anyone else. I'm not reinforcing shiat - the police have already made it clear that they see "civilians" as the enemy, and if it keeps going, it won't be long until EMTs start seeing themselves as combat medics and carrying guns. And for the record, you're all farking civilians.

They are literally trained to treat every traffic stop as a potential life or death situation. Civilians are not "the enemy" as you put it, but potential threats to their life. There's a fundamental difference there I think you need to consider.

Occupational hazard. Do cops not know that going in?
At what point does it start to become self serving?


Of course they know it going in, they're trained to know it, expect it, and predict it so they can mitigate the threat before it injures someone else. Clearly it's flawed because we have way too many unarmed people being shot.

But what do you mean by self-serving?
 
2017-07-17 01:10:52 PM  

DarkVader: Given what we saw happen here, what the parents of the victim in your case did was the right thing to do unless they were familiar with your protocol of sending in a psychologist.

And the part of your protocol that has the police involved at all is still a problem.  There should be no police called, they shouldn't be nearby, they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the scene.


Look who didn't read my other responses.  I'll repeat it for you.

The parents lied to us because they were concealing their illegal activities, therefore we had no chance to prevent that kid's suicide.

There were no police on scene,  Just me and my partner.

If the parents had been honest with us, we would have engaged (by phone first) a specially trained hostage negotiator/psychologist as per protocol, and PD would have been staging nearby and would not have interfered unless the patient became a danger to other people.

Lusiphur:  <snipped for brevity>

No offense, but you have no idea how EMS works, especially in regards to scene safety and how we handle suicidal patients.  You made this perfectly clear with this statement:

Should the parents have told you the kid was suicidal? Probably.

Probably?  PROBABLY?  How the hell am I supposed to treat my patient accordingly if I've been purposely given blatantly incorrect medical information and a false history of the chief complain regarding the patient in question?  Wait, I know...let me put on my f*cking psychic hat. What you don't understand is that when my dispatcher sends me on a call, they provide to me as much information about the patient as the calltaker was able to glean.  Why?  So I can be prepared to TREAT THE REPORTED PROBLEM WITHOUT DELAY.

*sigh*

Good to know how little you value the lives of emergency medical personnel.
 
2017-07-17 01:12:04 PM  

lucksi: Cubicle Jockey: So they think have identified the Minnesota cop who killed the Australian.
http://kstp.com/news/mohamed-noor-officer-involved-shooting-justine-di​amond-fatal-minneapolis-shooting/4544324/#.WWzXWMZhnM0.twitter

So it's like a bizzarro world version of the usual police shooting.

black cop killing white lady? he's going to jail.

not even snark, that is the status quo in the US. white cops can shoot s many unarmed black kids as they like, but a black cop shooting a white kid gets 40 years...


I'll take your racist bet. 2 to 1 odds says at most charges are filed, but nothing sticks and he walks because he's a cop and being black has jack-all to do with anything.
 
2017-07-17 01:13:52 PM  

Lusiphur: Splinthar: Lusiphur: docpeteyJ: Yeah, sometimes it's the family that do really stupid things that leave you wondering just WTF they were thinking.  I'm torn on whether or not the family in TFA played a role in what I see as a completely avoidable and pointless tragedy.

Last year, my Rescue Unit was dispatched on a teenager who, the parents reported, was alone in the house and having a severe anxiety attack*.No need for PD backup.  My partner and  I responded to find a distraught 16-year old sitting on the couch with a blanket on his lap. Absolutely we were in the mindset that this was a medical call, and nothing more. We see it all the time.

Did the parents mention that he had a history of suicide attempts?  That he wasn't actually having an anxiety attack, but had called them to say he wanted to kill himself?  THAT THERE WAS A LOADED, UNSECURED FIREARM IN THE HOUSE?  Which he told his parents he was in possession of?  No, they did not**.  And considering Utah has a reputation for NOT shooting first and asking questions later, I don't think their omission of these very important facts had anything to do with fear for their child's safety from over-enthusiastic cops.  Might just have had something to do with the fact that there was a meth lab in their shed.

What the parents DID do was that they reported it was an anxiety attack, stated it was an ongoing problem with him, and which (at least here) is treated as a medical problem, not a police one.  So off we went expecting to administer the appropriate medication and transport him for observation in the ER.  No need for PD backup.

Within five minutes of our arrival, where we found an obviously distraught teenaged male sitting on the couch with a blanket in his lap, he pulled out a loaded 9mm, put it to his head, and pulled the trigger.  My partner, who is damned lucky to be alive, was less than five feet away from him at the time, although he later needed medical care to remove a chunk of the kid's skull from his ...


I am not the one calling for 100 to be injured to prevent rustling the jimmies of someone who is having a mental episode, your knee-jerk hot-take BS is the triggered typing of someone who has finally lost patience with being rational.

I said that police should have handled it better, but also that EMS and First Responders shouldn't be treated like a meat shield.  You are the one using 4.5 x differential on casualties to dehumanize not only police but all first responders.

We agree that police should absolutely not shoot people nearly as often as they do, and they should be judged for it.

We agree its tragic that people who call 911 don't get help but rather get more problems.

Where we don't agree is you thinking its ok to say that 100 first responders should be harmed before a single suffering person.

You clearly are going full binary on the situation when what is really needed is a spectrum of understanding and response.
 
2017-07-17 01:13:56 PM  

Cthulhu Theory: kcfarker: Nidiot: doglover: cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person

They just shot an unarmed blonde white Australian woman in Minneapolis, after she called them for help http://www.startribune.com/woman-killed-in-officer-involved-shoot​ing-in-south-minneapolis/434782213/#1 so you have to update that advice. Skin tone is now irrelevant.

...As for the shooting itself, I'm going to hazard a guess and suggest the woman wasn't getting the response she expected from the police, got belligerent, which the passenger cop took as a threat, and shot her. I can't imagine a way in which lethal force would have been an acceptable response here unless she had a knife (she's not a gun owner ac ...


I'm going to hazard to guess that the cop/passenger fails at gun safety when it fired after he pulled it out of the holster to show her how 'big' it was.

Guy should have his trigger finger cut off so that he remembers why guns are bad.
 
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