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(MSN)   His parents said he just needed to sleep. Then things got stupid. And tragic   ( msn.com) divider line
    More: Misc, police, Constable, Austin, Russell Reeves, hingham police, SWAT team, hingham police chief, Austin's parents  
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17822 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Jul 2017 at 6:59 AM (13 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-07-17 10:19:31 AM  
Yeah, sometimes it's the family that do really stupid things that leave you wondering just WTF they were thinking.  I'm torn on whether or not the family in TFA played a role in what I see as a completely avoidable and pointless tragedy.

Last year, my Rescue Unit was dispatched on a teenager who, the parents reported, was alone in the house and having a severe anxiety attack*.No need for PD backup.  My partner and  I responded to find a distraught 16-year old sitting on the couch with a blanket on his lap. Absolutely we were in the mindset that this was a medical call, and nothing more. We see it all the time.

Did the parents mention that he had a history of suicide attempts?  That he wasn't actually having an anxiety attack, but had called them to say he wanted to kill himself?  THAT THERE WAS A LOADED, UNSECURED FIREARM IN THE HOUSE?  Which he told his parents he was in possession of?  No, they did not**.  And considering Utah has a reputation for NOT shooting first and asking questions later, I don't think their omission of these very important facts had anything to do with fear for their child's safety from over-enthusiastic cops.  Might just have had something to do with the fact that there was a meth lab in their shed.

What the parents DID do was that they reported it was an anxiety attack, stated it was an ongoing problem with him, and which (at least here) is treated as a medical problem, not a police one.  So off we went expecting to administer the appropriate medication and transport him for observation in the ER.  No need for PD backup.

Within five minutes of our arrival, where we found an obviously distraught teenaged male sitting on the couch with a blanket in his lap, he pulled out a loaded 9mm, put it to his head, and pulled the trigger.  My partner, who is damned lucky to be alive, was less than five feet away from him at the time, although he later needed medical care to remove a chunk of the kid's skull from his face.  When I heard that gunshot and saw him bleeding, my first impression was that he had been shot.

I suppose my point is that when you DO call 911, please be honest about the situation. If there really is an armed, suicidal person on scene, for the love of god, tell the dispatcher.  I'm not being an insensitive dick when I say that I'd rather see the cops go overboard and take down an armed person than risk one of my medics' lives.

*Yes, an actual anxiety attack is a medical emergency; the phsyiological response to severe anxiety can be very dangerous, with symptoms that include highly elevated heart rate and blood pressure, severe emotional and psychological stress (many patients describe the feeling as a combination of being scared out of their minds and experiencing a "sense of impending doom", both of which they have no control over) and, of course, suicidal ideation if it's a chronic, untreated issue.

**Oh, and for added assholishiness, the parents successfully sued the city, the county, the Fire Department, the dispatcher and me and my partner for negligence in not somehow preventing the death of their kid.  Americans are notoriously litigious, and seemingly incapable of taking personal responsibility for the self-inflicted stupidity in their lives.

[end slightly tangential not-so-CSB]
 
2017-07-17 10:21:30 AM  

Fark Against the Machine: Hello, 911? My son has locked himself in his room, and I just want to make sure he's alright. ...Yes, very depressed. Girl troubles, you know.... Yes, he did make some vague threats...  Well, he has his 9mm pistol... No, just a pit bull... Sounds to me like he just needs to sleep it off, I just wanted to let you all know!


"Ckshhhhhck. Constable Smith, Mortar Platoon - 2 rounds, high explosive to coordinates N22.0023  W17.02765 - Try to hit the bedroom. FIRE. Ckshhhhhhck."
 
2017-07-17 10:23:03 AM  

cman: Keyser_Soze_Death: cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person

Fixed.

If someone was trying to break into my place, I'm gonna call the cops. They do have their uses even tho many of them can be assholes.


Unless you're not home, that's a really bad idea.  They've been known to kill the person who called in a burglary.
 
2017-07-17 10:23:45 AM  

Hanky Panky Spanky: Is this the thread where we hate cops, or the thread where only cops should have guns?

We need a bit of column A bad column B me thinks.

Prayers to the family.


When white people are the victims involved it's the thread where you hate cops.
When black people are the victims involved it's the thread where all white people should have guns, especially cops.

Hope that clears things up for you. You may have been confused by the lack of racial stereotyping or reflexive hatred of black people.
 
2017-07-17 10:23:47 AM  

DarkVader: TOSViolation: cpubus: "Don't back me into a corner," his father remembers Austin saying. "Because I'll make it go away in four seconds."
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.

So the meaning was clear... yet he calls the police.

In the hall upstairs, Austin's mother spoke to him through his locked bedroom door. "Whatever's happening," Kate Harrison says she called to her son, "I love you, and we can work it out."

Then immediately start pestering him.
I get the feeling they never actually leave him the fark alone

The parents basically murdered him.  He told them to just leave him the fark alone, so the farkwads call the police.  His parents DESERVE to live the rest of their lives with guilt and pain over his death that they caused.

This.

If you don't know by now that calling the cops on someone you care about has a good chance of resulting in that person's death, you're an idiot who hasn't been paying attention.

DO NOT CALL THE COPS.


You should not put that on the parents, though.
Is it the parents' fault for forgetting in this stressful situation where they really needed help, that... oh yeah, the police are murdering innocent people now and probably won't deal with any of that "negotiation" or "talking down" bullshiat.
 
2017-07-17 10:24:15 AM  
If you have a problem and call police, you now have two problems.
 
2017-07-17 10:25:04 AM  

cman: lucksi: cman: lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more

Deutschland uber alles

Are you an expat living there, or are you native?

it's funny how you people know such things, yet elect a leader running on that platform

Thats like the only line of the song I know. Anyone who watches the Olympics probably is the same.

And I didnt vote for the asshole. 46% of American voters did.

/I spent some time in Wiesbaden (for some reason, spellcheck wants to correct that to "disbandment"). I Loved it there.


46% of American voters who showed up, voted for Trump. When under half of eligible voters turn up, it's not really an election.
 
2017-07-17 10:25:29 AM  

Notorious C.A.W.: tukatz: You're right.  It IS all about perception.  Like yours is apparently warped by your personal hatred of law enforcement.   Not everyone feels that way.  In fact, many people see the ever growing violence and crime and are afraid.  They also know that the police have a more violent and rebellious society to deal with.  And that they aren't paid to die over someone's inability to follow commands or lack of control.

Yet, statistically, we're in one of the safest, lowest-crime periods in American history. But do go on about the Boogeyman they keep harping on about on Fox News.


There has been a recent spike in violent crime in some urban areas over the past year or so. That being said, crime is still at much lower levels than in the 80s.
 
2017-07-17 10:26:01 AM  
Has anyone mentioned they shot a white woman yet?
 
2017-07-17 10:26:15 AM  
WTF are cops protecting us from and how can they do it when cowardice, self-protection and elitism are their modus operandi?  After-the-fact clean up is so much safer than calling them to try to prevent a tragedy.  They don't know how to prevent tragedy.
 
2017-07-17 10:28:14 AM  

docpeteyJ: although he later needed medical care to remove a chunk of the kid's skull from his face.


img.fark.net

I have to go be horrified over....there...now.  Bye.
 
2017-07-17 10:28:42 AM  

docpeteyJ: I suppose my point is that when you DO call 911, please be honest about the situation. If there really is an armed, suicidal person on scene, for the love of god, tell the dispatcher.


DO NOT DO THAT.  You WILL get someone killed if you do that.

I'm not being an insensitive dick when I say that I'd rather see the cops go overboard and take down an armed person than risk one of my medics' lives.

Yes, you are being an insensitive dick.  Look, that's a sucky situation.  But the cops are NOT going to handle it any better than you are, they're going to be MUCH worse at it in virtually all of the US.  Maybe where you are, they aren't that bad.  But until this gets fixed, if you are calling for help for a suicidal person:

DO NOT TELL 911 THAT THERE IS A GUN INVOLVED.

IF THEY ASK, TELL THEM NO IF YOU WANT SOMEONE YOU CARE ABOUT TO LIVE.
 
2017-07-17 10:29:19 AM  

LowbrowDeluxe: ToastmasterGeneral: Shadow Blasko: Nevercall the cops if worried about someone's mental health.

Just don't.

So who do you call?  Social services?  Guess what, potentially suicidal person with a firearm?  Social services is going to call the police.  As they should.  What if this guy had decided to kill his parents before killing himself?  Or his ex-girlfriend?

Now, none of this is to say that the police response in this case was proper.  It was horribly handled.

But at the same time, assuming that people with mental challenges and firearms will always be safe on their own is horribly misguided, too.

My, god, what if he developed psychic powers and went all Carrie and killed everyone in the neighborhood?!?


If you're going for the ludicrousness award, then congrats.

Otherwise, do you have a thought as to what should happen when a person with mental challenges and a firearm indicates that they're having problems?
 
2017-07-17 10:29:31 AM  

TOSViolation: cpubus: "Don't back me into a corner," his father remembers Austin saying. "Because I'll make it go away in four seconds."
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.

So the meaning was clear... yet he calls the police.

In the hall upstairs, Austin's mother spoke to him through his locked bedroom door. "Whatever's happening," Kate Harrison says she called to her son, "I love you, and we can work it out."

Then immediately start pestering him.
I get the feeling they never actually leave him the fark alone

The parents basically murdered him.  He told them to just leave him the fark alone, so the farkwads call the police.  His parents DESERVE to live the rest of their lives with guilt and pain over his death that they caused.


This is such a massively f*cked up thing to say.
 
2017-07-17 10:34:51 AM  

Ker_Thwap: bisi: Ker_Thwap: bisi: FTFA: "... carpe diem, seize the day - was tattooed in artful letters on his chest. His dog, Faith..." - Yeah, there definitely was some build up to this.
But a police seige ist not the best course of action for a person threatening suicide.

I've already granted that calling in a tank and multiple SWAT teams was an over-reaction.  We, of course have no idea what the guy said to the first responders.

I agree that a police siege is not the best course for a "reasonable" person threatening suicide.  Wait, what?

We weren't there.  There was an unstable person threatening suicide with a loaded gun.  What is the proper response in that situation?  Would you walk into that room, unarmed and unarmored, and try to talk him down?   Just walk away and let him sleep it off, allowing him to keep his gun, and potentially murder his ex girlfriend the next day?  Maybe they keep a bunch of disposable cops on store in your hometown?  Yeah, send in Officer Fred, he's old and has damned little to live for these days.

It then just become a matter of scale.  Two armored officers would have been fine, but three would have been bad?  How about an even dozen, if by chance the guy talked about taking others with him?  So, yes, at some point it's a bad look for the local PD when they call in a friggin tank.  But let's not pretend that the over cautious response is what killed the guy.

There is containing the person while trying  to strategically de-escalate the situation and disarm him.
And then there is going full SWAT, putting them in a corner until the pressure leads to a quick and permanent solution.

... and you pretend to know exactly how it played out?  We don't even know if the guy was aware of the full SWAT.  It might have been a kindly officer (in armor), at a safe distance, trying to strategically de-escalate the situation.  While outside the multitude of pretty lights flashed.  You make it sound like the police lined him up against a wall with a firing ...


I don't pretend to know that, get off my case.
I do find it curious how you can identify with the girl's parents but not with the young man's. And then there's the whole "the important thing is that he is neutralized and not a threat anymore"-derp.
 
2017-07-17 10:35:46 AM  

pedrop357: his name is my name too: lucksi: cman: lucksi: i always enjoy reading how such things are handled in second/third world countries. Makes me appreciate our police force more

Deutschland uber alles

Are you an expat living there, or are you native?

it's funny how you people know such things, yet elect a leader running on that platform

uh no... we people didn't, we people elected Hillary by 3 million more votes than the derp brigade.  The EC abdicated their duty and elected the demagogue which is outside of the people's control.

What duty did they abdicate?


Preventing an unqualified person from assuming the office? That's pretty big on their To-Do list.
 
2017-07-17 10:38:09 AM  
FYI, the police are not your grief/crisis councilors. They are armed men who make sure order is maintained.
 
2017-07-17 10:39:18 AM  
Guns are a simple tool, no different than a hammer or a sander. You don't see SWAT swarm a house when someone with a hammer says they need to be alone. Why such a paranoid overreaction??!?
 
2017-07-17 10:40:11 AM  

DarkVader: docpeteyJ: I suppose my point is that when you DO call 911, please be honest about the situation. If there really is an armed, suicidal person on scene, for the love of god, tell the dispatcher.

DO NOT DO THAT.  You WILL get someone killed if you do that.

I'm not being an insensitive dick when I say that I'd rather see the cops go overboard and take down an armed person than risk one of my medics' lives.

Yes, you are being an insensitive dick.  Look, that's a sucky situation.  But the cops are NOT going to handle it any better than you are, they're going to be MUCH worse at it in virtually all of the US.  Maybe where you are, they aren't that bad.  But until this gets fixed, if you are calling for help for a suicidal person:

DO NOT TELL 911 THAT THERE IS A GUN INVOLVED.

IF THEY ASK, TELL THEM NO IF YOU WANT SOMEONE YOU CARE ABOUT TO LIVE.


Umm...my job is not to negotiate with an armed person, regardless of their psychological state.  And YES, I need to know if there's a firearm involved.  It's important to the safety of my crew.

What should we have done differently?  The PARENTS in the situation I shared were the ones who called. We didn't just show up spontaneously, ya know.  And might I remind you, paramedics don't wear bullet-resistant vests, nor are we armed.  And our training in these types of calls is woefully inadequate (which I have long and unsuccessfully biatched about).

Would I have preferred that no one die?  Of course.  But if it comes down to choosing between the person with the gun, and one of my medics, I'm going to choose the latter.
 
2017-07-17 10:45:35 AM  

cpubus: "Don't back me into a corner," his father remembers Austin saying. "Because I'll make it go away in four seconds."
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.

So the meaning was clear... yet he calls the police.

In the hall upstairs, Austin's mother spoke to him through his locked bedroom door. "Whatever's happening," Kate Harrison says she called to her son, "I love you, and we can work it out."

Then immediately start pestering him.
I get the feeling they never actually leave him the fark alone


Suicidal Tendencies - "Institutionalized" Frontier Records
Youtube LoF_a0-7xVQ
 
2017-07-17 10:45:50 AM  

bisi: I don't pretend to know that, get off my case.
I do find it curious how you can identify with the girl's parents but not with the young man's. And then there's the whole "the important thing is that he is neutralized and not a threat anymore"-derp.


Then we agree.  Your earlier statements made it sound like their was only one possible way it could have played out.

I can empathize with both sets of parents.  I'm pragmatic, however.  I taught my kids how to bow out gracefully from failed relationships.  I'm aware that many people don't address this important part of life.  Do I identify more with the parents of the woman, who was fortunate to escape alive? ... or with the parents of the man with a gun, making vague threats of harm/self harm?

I see my adult children statistically more likely to be victims of violent crime than to be perpetrators of it.  It is any mystery why I identify more with the potential victim's family?
 
2017-07-17 10:46:27 AM  

ToastmasterGeneral: LowbrowDeluxe: ToastmasterGeneral: Shadow Blasko: Nevercall the cops if worried about someone's mental health.

Just don't.

So who do you call?  Social services?  Guess what, potentially suicidal person with a firearm?  Social services is going to call the police.  As they should.  What if this guy had decided to kill his parents before killing himself?  Or his ex-girlfriend?

Now, none of this is to say that the police response in this case was proper.  It was horribly handled.

But at the same time, assuming that people with mental challenges and firearms will always be safe on their own is horribly misguided, too.

My, god, what if he developed psychic powers and went all Carrie and killed everyone in the neighborhood?!?

If you're going for the ludicrousness award, then congrats.

Otherwise, do you have a thought as to what should happen when a person with mental challenges and a firearm indicates that they're having problems?


Well, just a thought, but maybe a few less of them would end up dead by their own hands or police if people's response wasn't "Nutso has a gun!  He's going to kill everyone!"  Like how is that even where your mind goes on "I'm going to kill myself"?
 
2017-07-17 10:46:35 AM  
This could have all been easily avoided if his parents had only taught him how to exercise his white and/or class privilege.
 
2017-07-17 10:47:06 AM  
"Please," the frightened father says he asked them, "why can't you just let him go to sleep?"

Because they are trained to escalate the situation until the person they are dealing with complies or dies.

There is no middle ground.

Also if you knew your son might kill themselves if backed into a corner, why did you engineer them being backed into a corner instead of just letting them sleep?

Why didn't you just let him go to sleep instead of calling the police?

Now you will have that guilt for the rest of your life.
 
2017-07-17 10:49:34 AM  

bisi: There is containing the person while trying  to strategically de-escalate the situation and disarm him.
And then there is going full SWAT, putting them in a corner until the pressure leads to a quick and permanent solution.


What's really sad is that people who are feeling a bit suicidal and see stories like this may choose not to talk to anyone about it so they won't get some help before they reach the point of no return.
 
2017-07-17 10:50:18 AM  

ToastmasterGeneral: LowbrowDeluxe: ToastmasterGeneral: Shadow Blasko: Nevercall the cops if worried about someone's mental health.

Just don't.

So who do you call?  Social services?  Guess what, potentially suicidal person with a firearm?  Social services is going to call the police.  As they should.  What if this guy had decided to kill his parents before killing himself?  Or his ex-girlfriend?

Now, none of this is to say that the police response in this case was proper.  It was horribly handled.

But at the same time, assuming that people with mental challenges and firearms will always be safe on their own is horribly misguided, too.

My, god, what if he developed psychic powers and went all Carrie and killed everyone in the neighborhood?!?

If you're going for the ludicrousness award, then congrats.

Otherwise, do you have a thought as to what should happen when a person with mental challenges and a firearm indicates that they're having problems?


At that point it is too late, the thing that could save them is more sensible restrictions on gun use, storage and licensing. One thing that sensible people would like is to not let people with mental challenges have access to firearms.
 
2017-07-17 10:51:26 AM  

docpeteyJ: Would I have preferred that no one die?  Of course.  But if it comes down to choosing between the person with the gun, and one of my medics, I'm going to choose the latter


Wow, you must really hate your medics.

(Phrasing)
 
2017-07-17 10:51:30 AM  

LowbrowDeluxe: ToastmasterGeneral: Shadow Blasko: Nevercall the cops if worried about someone's mental health.

Just don't.

So who do you call?  Social services?  Guess what, potentially suicidal person with a firearm?  Social services is going to call the police.  As they should.  What if this guy had decided to kill his parents before killing himself?  Or his ex-girlfriend?

Now, none of this is to say that the police response in this case was proper.  It was horribly handled.

But at the same time, assuming that people with mental challenges and firearms will always be safe on their own is horribly misguided, too.

My, god, what if he developed psychic powers and went all Carrie and killed everyone in the neighborhood?!?


img.fark.net
 
2017-07-17 10:54:49 AM  
Monty Python - Mosquito Hunting HQ
Youtube cZvT3MHpffk
 
2017-07-17 10:55:29 AM  

dready zim: "Please," the frightened father says he asked them, "why can't you just let him go to sleep?"

Because they are trained to escalate the situation until the person they are dealing with complies or dies.

There is no middle ground.

Also if you knew your son might kill themselves if backed into a corner, why did you engineer them being backed into a corner instead of just letting them sleep?

Why didn't you just let him go to sleep instead of calling the police?

Now you will have that guilt for the rest of your life.


A lot of people are out of touch about there not being a middle ground.

Besides in the movies, how often has SWAT backed down when asked to by a civilian familiar with the situation?
 
2017-07-17 10:56:55 AM  
Always remember kids, Police are not your friends. They are not there to help, if someone needs help, don't call the police. They are not mental health professionals, they are not a suicide hotline, and they are not there to help. If someone has a problem, the police are not going aid anything, especially if there is a weapon of any sort involved, they are only going to make things worse. The US Supreme Court has affirmed they are under no obligation or requirement to protect or serve, never forget that or believe otherwise. Countless tragedies have occurred because people forget that.

If someone is having a major mental health issue, the last thing anyone should do is involve the police. The role they have defined for themselves is inherently unable to do anything but make such a situation worse. If someone is threatening to harm themselves, the police response will be essentially to do it for them.

TL;DR if someone is having a crisis, the police aren't going to help, don't call them.
 
2017-07-17 10:57:21 AM  

AngryDragon: docpeteyJ: Would I have preferred that no one die?  Of course.  But if it comes down to choosing between the person with the gun, and one of my medics, I'm going to choose the latter

Wow, you must really hate your medics.

(Phrasing)


Doh!
 
2017-07-17 10:58:12 AM  
Jimmy's getting angry: Learn to read. The parents didn't call the cops

Well, if you had read the text you quoted me with, that I copied from the article, you would see that his did call the cops back, after they had called and did their welfare check.  They were not coming to the house up until that point.

Dont forget to add yourself to your tard list
 
2017-07-17 11:00:48 AM  

docpeteyJ: It's important to the safety of my crew.


I think you are nearing identifying the problem.

Nearly all of these recent senseless killings are at the center of 'officer safety'.  Think he is going for a gun may as well shoot him because god forbid he could be clint eastwood and quick draw you down (even though you are already senselessly brandishing and violating the law)
 
2017-07-17 11:00:56 AM  

Another Government Employee: Ketchuponsteak: cpubus: "Don't back me into a corner," his father remembers Austin saying. "Because I'll make it go away in four seconds."
To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.

So the meaning was clear... yet he calls the police.

In the hall upstairs, Austin's mother spoke to him through his locked bedroom door. "Whatever's happening," Kate Harrison says she called to her son, "I love you, and we can work it out."

Then immediately start pestering him.
I get the feeling they never actually leave him the fark alone

"we love you son, so we called the cops on you."

I'm sure that brightened his mood.

Speaking as a parent of kids this age, I fully understand the father's actions. Frankly, he's in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. If he does NOT call and the situation escalates, there may be more than one body, since he knows the kid is armed. If he's the survivor, he still gets to play "what if?" for the rest of his life.

But the police's response was gasoline on a fire. The problem with how most SWAT situations are handle, is the super show of force. It's using a sledgehammer when you need a fly swatter.


From the article, I didn't get the impression that he was suicidal, but of course I weren't there.

The SWAT responses are insane in USA. Like how people call in hoax "situations" to live streamers on Twitch, and the SWAT teams shows up. I swear that wouldn't work in any European nation. The police would show up, knock on the door, and be non-hostile and polite. No situation, thus no SWAT'ïng happends to European streamers.
 
2017-07-17 11:08:26 AM  

IRQ12: docpeteyJ: It's important to the safety of my crew.

I think you are nearing identifying the problem.

Nearly all of these recent senseless killings are at the center of 'officer safety'.  Think he is going for a gun may as well shoot him because god forbid he could be clint eastwood and quick draw you down (even though you are already senselessly brandishing and violating the law)


You either have some really strange EMTs where you're from or have no clue who you're talking to despite having a detailed explanation and description in the post that started this digression.
 
2017-07-17 11:08:33 AM  

IRQ12: docpeteyJ: It's important to the safety of my crew.

I think you are nearing identifying the problem.

Nearly all of these recent senseless killings are at the center of 'officer safety'.  Think he is going for a gun may as well shoot him because god forbid he could be clint eastwood and quick draw you down (even though you are already senselessly brandishing and violating the law)


Well, my points were A) the parents LIED to us*.  B) EMS personnel are not psychic.  C) It's not our job to negotiate with an armed, suicidal person; we have professionals for that, and I don't mean the cops. And D) this was an issue of the safety of responding EMS, not what PD may or may not do.

But yeah, I see what you're getting at.

*Perhaps if they had been honest, and not more concerned about their illegal activities than the safety of their child, this wouldn't have happened.  Seriously, IMHO, the ability to take personal responsibility for one's actions is about as rare as common sense nowadays.
 
2017-07-17 11:10:18 AM  
It would be helpful to know exactly what the ex-girlfriend told police, because it sounds like the father had the right idea about not escalating the situation, maybe the ex got the police all riled up with talk about guns & suicide on purpose?
 
2017-07-17 11:16:35 AM  
I'm not crying... YOU'RE crying...
 
2017-07-17 11:16:36 AM  

LowbrowDeluxe: IRQ12: docpeteyJ: It's important to the safety of my crew.

I think you are nearing identifying the problem.

Nearly all of these recent senseless killings are at the center of 'officer safety'.  Think he is going for a gun may as well shoot him because god forbid he could be clint eastwood and quick draw you down (even though you are already senselessly brandishing and violating the law)

You either have some really strange EMTs where you're from or have no clue who you're talking to despite having a detailed explanation and description in the post that started this digression.


I wasn't speaking about them specifically, I was saying they have identified the problem with these calls wrt to police.
 
2017-07-17 11:17:11 AM  

tukatz: And why does someone diagnosed with mental illness own a gun? Dad didn't seem to have a problem with that.


He wasn't diagnosed. Not as far as his parents knew anyway.
FTA:
Austin had no history of mental illness.
...
When he'd moved out of her house and back home in June, after the breakup, he had wept inconsolably, his mother said. But he never seemed to sink into depression.
 
2017-07-17 11:19:41 AM  

Dadoody: FYI, the police are not your grief/crisis councilors. They are armed men who make sure order is maintained.


But there ought to be emergency grief/crisis councilors who are trained to handle this shiat.
 
2017-07-17 11:19:46 AM  

Nidiot: doglover: Nidiot: Skin tone is now irrelevant.

Well fark.

They can't even not shoot blonde chicks!?!?!

I take it back. ONLY CALL THE POLICE IN AMERICA IF YOU WANT TO DIE. THEY WILL F*CK AND OR KILL YOU.

911? More like 187.

Even if they have decided all citizens simply exist as target practice, they need to consider where they are when the go all shooty shooty bang bang. This cop probably made himself and his partner deaf, at least temporarily: "Damond, in her pajamas, went to the driver's side door and was talking to the driver. The officer in the passenger seat pulled his gun and shot Damond through the driver's side door, sources said."


Earballs, damnit!
 
2017-07-17 11:23:08 AM  

dready zim: "Please," the frightened father says he asked them, "why can't you just let him go to sleep?"

Because they are trained to escalate the situation until the person they are dealing with complies or dies.

There is no middle ground.

Also if you knew your son might kill themselves if backed into a corner, why did you engineer them being backed into a corner instead of just letting them sleep?

Why didn't you just let him go to sleep instead of calling the police?

Now you will have that guilt for the rest of your life.


Next thing you know the kid decides to shoot the parents and then himself. Honestly, I wouldn't have gone to sleep that night knowing the kid is that unstable.
 
2017-07-17 11:26:00 AM  
With him was his dog and his 9 mm handgun.

Wow, I'm SHOCKED a SWAT team showed up.
 
2017-07-17 11:26:24 AM  

Nidiot: doglover: cman: Lesson learned: Don't call the cops for a suicidal person

Or ever, really.

The only reason you should call the police is to kill negros. That's not what police are supposed to be, just what they've become. If you need negros murdered, call the police. If you need ANYTHING else, call someone else.

Also if you are black , or even have a heavy tan, and the police show up... GET THE HELL OUTTA THERE!

They just shot an unarmed blonde white Australian woman in Minneapolis, after she called them for help http://www.startribune.com/woman-killed-in-officer-involved-shoot​ing-in-south-minneapolis/434782213/#1 so you have to update that advice. Skin tone is now irrelevant.

Don't call the police unless you want someone shot.


Their body cams not turned on and they could have used a taser.

I'm glad I moved away from the big cities the way things are getting in the USA.  Here, where i'm at now, it's so very rare that an officer even makes a move for a gun (even resting a hand on it is rare and odd) that other cops will notice and take the rookie/cop-new-to-area to the side and have a chat.  I've personally seen it happen twice where a cop has had a hand hovering over their gun and been taken out of the situation by another officer.

Of course, we have our fair share of asshole police just like we have our fair share of asshole people overall, but at least we know we're not risking getting shot unless we're doing something that's an immediate serious danger to others.
 
2017-07-17 11:26:55 AM  

Ker_Thwap: Schmerd1948: Ker_Thwap: My first thought would be to call a suicide prevention hotline, unless of course I suspected that my child with the gun was likely to take out a few other people including myself, neighbors, ex girlfriends, etc.; at which point the responsible thing would be to call the police.

  So, the parents are fearful for their own lives, and the police aren't allowed to be fearful for their own lives and take precautions like wearing body armor?  The parents just expected a Hollywood ending where a kindly old police officer takes off the vest, risks his/her own life and smoothly says the perfect words, that perfectly penetrate the angst of the would be suicide.

The guy shot himself, there's very little the police could have done to prevent that.  No one else got shot, that's a positive outcome.

They armored vehicle was a nice touch. And the multiple town-forces.
You really don't think they over-reacted?

My then wife passed out and thumped to the floor one night.  I called 911.  Within 10 minutes there were 30 local volunteer firemen cluttering up my house, clogging the parking spaces, so that by the time the ambulance arrived, it had no where to park.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯   Responders get bored.  At worst, it was a giant waste of funding.

So, yes.  You're right, it does seem to be an over-reaction.  Better than an under-reaction, where innocents got killed as well.  Did the over-reaction directly lead to the suicide? Dubious.  There was a massive life long chain of events that led to the suicide.  It's a complex issue, and it's a bit insensitive to pretend it's a single issue concern that can be solved with a snap of the fingers and a few magic words in every case.


Except that a shiat ton of relatively recent research has shown that youth/adolescent suicide is much different than adult suicide, in that it is often not part of a significantly larger chain of mental health issues, and is often spontaneous and unlikely to be trusted if prevented the first time. Teenager brains aren't wired right - they're incredibly short-sighted and unstable, and can tip over from "totally ok" to "about to kill myself" in seconds, often with no real build-up or history of mental illness.

If this kid was left alone, chances are he would have gotten over it, went to therapy, and been a perfectly functional and normal adult.
 
2017-07-17 11:27:00 AM  

Millennium: Arachnophobe: It wasn't the parents that called, it was the ex-girlfriend.

[img.fark.net image 150x150]

The parents did not make the call. No word on whether the boyfriend played the "I'll kill myself if you leave" card, but if he did then there's no cause to blame the ex either; calling the cops is what you do in that situation.


WTF

To Russell Reeves, the meaning was clear - Austin would hurt himself if he wasn't left in peace. Stunned and afraid, Reeves dialed the Hingham police just after 10 p.m. to ask for help.
 
2017-07-17 11:31:23 AM  

LowbrowDeluxe: ToastmasterGeneral: LowbrowDeluxe: ToastmasterGeneral: Shadow Blasko: Nevercall the cops if worried about someone's mental health.

Just don't.

So who do you call?  Social services?  Guess what, potentially suicidal person with a firearm?  Social services is going to call the police.  As they should.  What if this guy had decided to kill his parents before killing himself?  Or his ex-girlfriend?

Now, none of this is to say that the police response in this case was proper.  It was horribly handled.

But at the same time, assuming that people with mental challenges and firearms will always be safe on their own is horribly misguided, too.

My, god, what if he developed psychic powers and went all Carrie and killed everyone in the neighborhood?!?

If you're going for the ludicrousness award, then congrats.

Otherwise, do you have a thought as to what should happen when a person with mental challenges and a firearm indicates that they're having problems?

Well, just a thought, but maybe a few less of them would end up dead by their own hands or police if people's response wasn't "Nutso has a gun!  He's going to kill everyone!"  Like how is that even where your mind goes on "I'm going to kill myself"?


You didn't identify what you'd do, unless you were subtly saying that the solution in those instances is to send nobody and just hope for the best.

No, SWAT is not the answer.But more and more police departments are undertaking Crisis Interneuron Training, or something similar - as they should.

However, if you have a different suggestion for what to do when someone with mental issues and a firearm threatens harm - even to just themselves - then I'm all ears.
 
2017-07-17 11:32:30 AM  
Question for the EMS or other knowledgeable farkers: what is the best course of action when a person (family member, friend, whatever) is armed and threatening suicide or something similar, when you can't handle the situation by yourself but would still like them to remain un"helped" by police?

/It is still quite a leap from "person considering or talking about suicide" to "ex-person". Interesting article I read a while ago: https://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/opinionator/2013/06/02/a-simple-way-​t​o-reduce-suicides/?referer=
 
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