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(Newsweek)   The speech Jeff Sessions gave to the anti-LGBT Christian group has been printed in full   ( newsweek.com) divider line
    More: Creepy, religious liberty, Federal government of the United States, General Jeff Sessions, right-wing legal advocacy, Alliance Defending Freedom-known, Conservative news site, closed door meeting, senior White House  
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3855 clicks; posted to Politics » on 14 Jul 2017 at 11:07 AM (21 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-07-14 09:08:40 AM  
"Religion is under attack..."

Translation: "We want people to notice us the most!"
Political Translation: "He you church rubes.  Vote for our party...we're on your side."
 
2017-07-14 09:44:33 AM  
"Our founders, at least the most articulate of them, believed our government existed as a protector of religious rights of Americans that were essential to being a created human being," he continued.

Thomas Jefferson "wall of separation between church and state" wasn't articulate? How about Madison "an entire abstinence of: the Govt from interference [in religion] in any way whatever"?


freedom as citizens has always been inextricably linked with our religious freedom as a people. It has protected both the freedom to worship and the freedom not to believe as well. . . . The government did not exist to promote religious doctrine nor to take sides in religious disputes that had, as they well knew, caused wars and death in Europe. Nor was it the government's role to immanetize the eschaton, as Bill Buckley reminded us.

Agreed.

Since he was elected, President Trump has been an unwavering defender of religious liberty. He has promised that under a Trump Administration, "the federal government will never, ever penalize any person for their protected religious beliefs." And he is fulfilling that promise.

Completely, blatantly false.
 
2017-07-14 09:51:22 AM  
Why is it when a Republican talks about "freedom" and "rights" they're invariably talking about stripping away individual rights from the most vulnerable citizens?
 
2017-07-14 09:52:16 AM  
Do I really want to read this?  From the proud defender of American values who's also in cahoots with the Russians?
 
2017-07-14 09:55:31 AM  

Voiceofreason01: Why is it when a Republican talks about "freedom" and "rights" they're invariably talking about stripping away individual rights from the most vulnerable citizens?


They oddly and illogically believe that if something is inclusive of everyone, it is somehow still exclusive of them.  That's wrong, clearly.  But what lies underneath is power:  inclusivity means they lose power.  It means they have to share.  It means they don't get to exclusively call the shots for everyone else.

They're not bemoaning the loss of freedom or rights, strictly speaking.  They're bemoaning the loss of freedom and the right to discriminate and disenfranchise others.  That's entirely different.
 
2017-07-14 09:57:11 AM  

Diogenes: Do I really want to read this?  From the proud defender of American values who's also in cahoots with the Russians?


Yeah, it's not horrifying. Though there is a great point about a failing affecting Muslim immigration upthread. I saw it as pretty low quality pablum right for his immediate audience. Typical Republicans for religious fools fare.
 
2017-07-14 10:00:27 AM  
Sessions is in line with Bannon's World View. Bannon wants not just a war against Terrorsim, but a war on Islam itself and also Lefties and Atheists... even going so far as calling Millennials the enemy
http://www.thedailybeast.com/steve-bannon-trumps-top-guy-told-me-he-w​a​s-a-leninist

This is who we have running our Nation. If you are not a bible-banging white-boy waving the flag and chomping down corporate food from paper buckets you'd better be ready to fight for your life

Your rights are not guaranteed in this nation where those in power fear no law
 
2017-07-14 10:05:38 AM  
"A lot of people are concerned about what this changing cultural climate means for the future of religious liberty in this country," he added. "The challenges our nation faces today concerning our historic First Amendment right to the 'free exercise' of our faith have become acute."

Well, he's not wrong. I'm sure he was talking about Muslims, Sikhs, and Jews...right?
 
2017-07-14 10:06:07 AM  

Diogenes: Voiceofreason01: Why is it when a Republican talks about "freedom" and "rights" they're invariably talking about stripping away individual rights from the most vulnerable citizens?

They oddly and illogically believe that if something is inclusive of everyone, it is somehow still exclusive of them.  That's wrong, clearly.  But what lies underneath is power:  inclusivity means they lose power.  It means they have to share.  It means they don't get to exclusively call the shots for everyone else.

They're not bemoaning the loss of freedom or rights, strictly speaking.  They're bemoaning the loss of freedom and the right to discriminate and disenfranchise others.  That's entirely different.


To be fair, the right to refuse to do business with someone is pretty well supported among both the left and the right.

The difference between the ability to boycott businesses and individuals for supporting Trump and the ability to boycott gays and lesbians lies (in part) in the fact that the latter are considered a protected class. The reason that attacks on this play so well among Trump supporters is that many of them don't see themselves as an advantaged group (note: I'm talking about perceptions here, not reality). If someone sees themselves as 'struggling' to get along, why should they support others getting protections they themselves can't have?

If someone has a pithy way to explain this, I could use some quotes. I tend to be long-winded.
 
2017-07-14 10:35:03 AM  

rcain: This is who we have running our Nation. If you are not a bible-banging white-boy waving the flag and chomping down corporate food from paper buckets you'd better be ready to fight for your life


The confederate flag would be even better.

draypresct: If someone has a pithy way to explain this, I could use some quotes. I tend to be long-winded.


Any argument that relies heavily on absolute falsehood to work is a shoddy one.  Bakers are being asked to make wedding cakes, the same product that they already make, and this one refuses because OMG THE GAYS.  "Well you wouldn't support a Halal deli being forced to serve bacon, would you?" is a common, "witty" retort.  No, I wouldn't expect a Halal deli to be forced to serve bacon to gays, nor straights, nor Muslims, nor anyone.  Just as I wouldn't expect a bakery to be forced to serve bacon.

But I would expect a public accommodation, Halal deli to serve their signature falafel to any paying customer with the right combination of shirt and shoes that came in.
 
2017-07-14 10:36:19 AM  
And that kids is why non christians are f*cked in this country.
 
2017-07-14 10:52:25 AM  

factoryconnection: draypresct: If someone has a pithy way to explain this, I could use some quotes. I tend to be long-winded.


Any argument that relies heavily on absolute falsehood to work is a shoddy one.  Bakers are being asked to make wedding cakes, the same product that they already make, and this one refuses because OMG THE GAYS.  "Well you wouldn't support a Halal deli being forced to serve bacon, would you?" is a common, "witty" retort.  No, I wouldn't expect a Halal deli to be forced to serve bacon to gays, nor straights, nor Muslims, nor anyone.  Just as I wouldn't expect a bakery to be forced to serve bacon.

But I would expect a public accommodation, Halal deli to serve their signature falafel to any paying customer with the right combination of shirt and shoes that came in.


The reply I've heard is not "Halal deli forced to make bacon", it's more like "Halal deli forced to serve a pro-Trump rally."

The difference (that they see) between being free to refuse to serve Trump supporters and not being free to refuse to serve LGBTs is that the latter seem to be getting 'special rights'. I can try to discuss why certain groups are protected class (or, I suppose, whatever sort of pseudo protected class limbo the LGBTs are in right now), but that conversation tends not to go anywhere.

Part of the problem (for me), is that I'm sometimes talking to people who really feel that they're struggling, economically. Telling them that they're advantaged is just not convincing.
 
2017-07-14 11:11:10 AM  

UberDave: "Religion is under attack..."

Translation: "We want people to notice us the most!"
Political Translation: "He you church rubes.  Vote for our party...we're on your side."


Our oppressing is being oppressed!
 
2017-07-14 11:11:50 AM  
Fu*k you, you little keebler klan elf.  No one's taking your bible away, but the Government IS supposed to stop you from slapping people on the head with it until they believe what's in it.
 
2017-07-14 11:12:41 AM  
Fark: They're not even Christian.
 
2017-07-14 11:14:50 AM  

Diogenes: Voiceofreason01: Why is it when a Republican talks about "freedom" and "rights" they're invariably talking about stripping away individual rights from the most vulnerable citizens?

They oddly and illogically believe that if something is inclusive of everyone, it is somehow still exclusive of them.  That's wrong, clearly.  But what lies underneath is power:  inclusivity means they lose power.  It means they have to share.  It means they don't get to exclusively call the shots for everyone else.

They're not bemoaning the loss of freedom or rights, strictly speaking.  They're bemoaning the loss of freedom and the right to discriminate and disenfranchise others.  That's entirely different.


It's like men whining that feminism means women want to oppress them. No, idiot, it means they want equal treatment. Just because they don't want to be crapped on anymore doesn't mean they suddenly want to crap all over you.
 
2017-07-14 11:16:48 AM  
"Religion is under attack."

Translation: People are attacking our attempts to create a Christian theocracy in the US, they are resisting our attempts to enshrine fundamentalist Christianity as the foundation of our laws, and making it so Christians can't discriminate against non-Christians.
 
2017-07-14 11:18:50 AM  
And yet they worship a Jew...Hmmm...
 
2017-07-14 11:19:00 AM  
The whole religious liberty argument these assholes has nothing to do with their right to worship, it has everything to do with forcing their morals on others.
 
2017-07-14 11:19:18 AM  

Mr. Shabooboo: And yet they worship a Jew...Hmmm...


(((Jesus Christ!!)))
 
2017-07-14 11:20:28 AM  

Urmuf Hamer: Diogenes: Do I really want to read this?  From the proud defender of American values who's also in cahoots with the Russians?

Yeah, it's not horrifying. Though there is a great point about a failing affecting Muslim immigration upthread. I saw it as pretty low quality pablum right for his immediate audience. Typical Republicans for religious fools fare.


Surprisingly 'liberal' for the audience in question.  Defended the secular structure of govt.
 
2017-07-14 11:20:37 AM  

draypresct: The difference (that they see) between being free to refuse to serve Trump supporters and not being free to refuse to serve LGBTs is that the latter seem to be getting 'special rights'. I can try to discuss why certain groups are protected class (or, I suppose, whatever sort of pseudo protected class limbo the LGBTs are in right now), but that conversation tends not to go anywhere.


I'm not sure I agree with the freedom of association analogy, but there is a line that is going to vex me in that way of thinking.  Would I support a Jewish deli refusing to cater a Neo-Nazi rally, specifically one focused on ridding us of the "Jewish Problem?"  I mean I absolutely understand why they wouldn't want to, and I understand how a Richard Spencer type might conjure that kind of IRL legal trolling move as well.  Freedom of association can certainly be abused to discriminate against oppressed minorities.  Hmmmm...

But there's no real philosophical parallel in that example you  mentioned.  Trumpers often express a sincere desire to get all the Muslims out, but gays don't want to end Christianity nor Christian marriage.  So it once again falls on using a falsehood to push the narrative.
 
2017-07-14 11:20:56 AM  

bainsguy: Diogenes: Voiceofreason01: Why is it when a Republican talks about "freedom" and "rights" they're invariably talking about stripping away individual rights from the most vulnerable citizens?

They oddly and illogically believe that if something is inclusive of everyone, it is somehow still exclusive of them.  That's wrong, clearly.  But what lies underneath is power:  inclusivity means they lose power.  It means they have to share.  It means they don't get to exclusively call the shots for everyone else.

They're not bemoaning the loss of freedom or rights, strictly speaking.  They're bemoaning the loss of freedom and the right to discriminate and disenfranchise others.  That's entirely different.

It's like men whining that feminism means women want to oppress them. No, idiot, it means they want equal treatment. Just because they don't want to be crapped on anymore doesn't mean they suddenly want to crap all over you.


No lie, I once had a "discussion" with a MRA who was incensed that I was a working mom. I was apparently taking a job away from a honest man who needed to support his family.
 
2017-07-14 11:21:00 AM  
Blessed be Gilead!
Under His Eye.
 
2017-07-14 11:21:16 AM  

Voiceofreason01: Why is it when a Republican talks about "freedom" and "rights" they're invariably talking about stripping away individual rights from the most vulnerable citizens?


It's almost as if they're trying to fill the coffers of their donors at the expense of the bottom 80%. It also doesn't help that some idiot who leads the House forgot to laugh at Ayn Rand's philosophies after he left junior high.
 
2017-07-14 11:23:42 AM  

Markoff_Cheney: The whole religious liberty argument these assholes has nothing to do with their right to worship, it has everything to do with forcing their morals on others.


Except for the fact that they have no morals. Keebler Elf can't even make a decent cookie.
 
2017-07-14 11:25:38 AM  
"Kill the unbelievers"
 
2017-07-14 11:25:42 AM  
If religion is under attack, it's because you're doing the attacking with your Muslim ban and attempt at a registry.
 
2017-07-14 11:26:35 AM  
Let me quote the words of jesus on the subject of homosexuality:
 
2017-07-14 11:26:43 AM  
So the right wing believes in cultural climate change but not actual climate change?
 
2017-07-14 11:27:08 AM  

Wadded Beef: Voiceofreason01: Why is it when a Republican talks about "freedom" and "rights" they're invariably talking about stripping away individual rights from the most vulnerable citizens?

It's almost as if they're trying to fill the coffers of their donors at the expense of the bottom 80%. It also doesn't help that some idiot who leads the House forgot to laugh at Ayn Rand's philosophies after he left junior high.


That's a strong term. Rand wasn't even a philosopher.
 
2017-07-14 11:28:00 AM  
Jefferson Beauregard Sessions: A tree, toll house cookies and a pointy hood that is so white, moths looking for the sun crash into it.
 
2017-07-14 11:28:37 AM  

Julius Pleaseher: Fark: They're not even Christian.


Yes, they are. From a historical/doctrinal perspective, Christianity and gays have had a pretty shiatty relationship for a very long time. From a sociological perspective, you're not going to have a good time if you want to sit there and be the arbiter of who is/isn't a Christian. I don't see how that's particularly different from the Islamophobes who claim that all real Muslims want a Jihad against the West, and the ones that don't aren't really Muslims.

...and if you're going to try to claim that people who call themselves Christians aren't living up to this or that Biblical criterion...well, in that case I'm not sure I know any Christians, due the distinct absence of healing powers and cyanide immunity that I notice among people claiming the label.
 
2017-07-14 11:29:02 AM  
img.fark.netView Full Size
 
2017-07-14 11:29:03 AM  
"Religion is under attack..."

Wow.... I mean.... honestly that's wondering news.
As long as the main weapons are rational thought and science, then please proceed.
 
2017-07-14 11:29:27 AM  

Cthulhukefka: [img.fark.net image 425x425]


I like this one.
 
2017-07-14 11:30:30 AM  
i.imgur.comView Full Size
 
2017-07-14 11:32:02 AM  
I thought that this crappy article could at least link to the transcript but I didn't see it so here's the actual speech.

http://thefederalist.com/2017/07/13/heres-the-speech-jeff-sessions-de​l​ivered-to-christian-first-amendment-lawyers/

You might want to take a break from the normal Fark behavior of not reading stuff and actually read this so you can perhaps form an educated opinion.  Just sayin.
 
2017-07-14 11:32:10 AM  

fiddlehead: bainsguy: Diogenes: Voiceofreason01: Why is it when a Republican talks about "freedom" and "rights" they're invariably talking about stripping away individual rights from the most vulnerable citizens?

They oddly and illogically believe that if something is inclusive of everyone, it is somehow still exclusive of them.  That's wrong, clearly.  But what lies underneath is power:  inclusivity means they lose power.  It means they have to share.  It means they don't get to exclusively call the shots for everyone else.

They're not bemoaning the loss of freedom or rights, strictly speaking.  They're bemoaning the loss of freedom and the right to discriminate and disenfranchise others.  That's entirely different.

It's like men whining that feminism means women want to oppress them. No, idiot, it means they want equal treatment. Just because they don't want to be crapped on anymore doesn't mean they suddenly want to crap all over you.

No lie, I once had a "discussion" with a MRA who was incensed that I was a working mom. I was apparently taking a job away from a honest man who needed to support his family.


LOL.  Should have told him to "man up."  They LOVE that.
 
2017-07-14 11:34:03 AM  

cheezesub: Wadded Beef: Voiceofreason01: Why is it when a Republican talks about "freedom" and "rights" they're invariably talking about stripping away individual rights from the most vulnerable citizens?

It's almost as if they're trying to fill the coffers of their donors at the expense of the bottom 80%. It also doesn't help that some idiot who leads the House forgot to laugh at Ayn Rand's philosophies after he left junior high.

That's a strong term. Rand wasn't even a philosopher.


Agreed. Let's go with "leavings."
 
2017-07-14 11:34:39 AM  

Diogenes: Do I really want to read this?  From the proud defender of American values who's also in cahoots with the Russians?


Putin has been much more successful at co-opting the dominant Russian Orthodox Church (Funny how it survived all those decades of Godless communism!) than Republicans have been at corralling America's snake-handlers, tongue-speakers and other evangelicals. Most Christians in America remain sane.
It's no surprise Sessions is trying to emulate Vladimir.
 
2017-07-14 11:35:03 AM  
Excuse my language, but what a c**t.
 
2017-07-14 11:35:29 AM  

Musikslayer: Markoff_Cheney: The whole religious liberty argument these assholes has nothing to do with their right to worship, it has everything to do with forcing their morals on others.

Except for the fact that they have no morals. Keebler Elf can't even make a decent cookie.


One thing I will say about most of this administration, they even look like guilty as fark shiat weasels.
 
2017-07-14 11:35:57 AM  

UberDave: "Religion Christianity is under attack..."

... like it has been since the Jews persecuted our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Please ignore the fact that since Charlemange in 771AD all of Europe (minus those pesky pagans) have been Christian, and the "persecution" stopped, except all the scare mongering we did in the 1980s about how the commies wouldn't let you own a Bible, and we had Bible smuggling operations. But they killed our Lord, so we've still got PTSD over that.

 
2017-07-14 11:37:28 AM  

fiddlehead: bainsguy: Diogenes: Voiceofreason01: Why is it when a Republican talks about "freedom" and "rights" they're invariably talking about stripping away individual rights from the most vulnerable citizens?

They oddly and illogically believe that if something is inclusive of everyone, it is somehow still exclusive of them.  That's wrong, clearly.  But what lies underneath is power:  inclusivity means they lose power.  It means they have to share.  It means they don't get to exclusively call the shots for everyone else.

They're not bemoaning the loss of freedom or rights, strictly speaking.  They're bemoaning the loss of freedom and the right to discriminate and disenfranchise others.  That's entirely different.

It's like men whining that feminism means women want to oppress them. No, idiot, it means they want equal treatment. Just because they don't want to be crapped on anymore doesn't mean they suddenly want to crap all over you.

No lie, I once had a "discussion" with a MRA who was incensed that I was a working mom. I was apparently taking a job away from a honest man who needed to support his family.


MRAs are pissy scumbags, to a man.
 
2017-07-14 11:37:42 AM  

brandent: I thought that this crappy article could at least link to the transcript but I didn't see it so here's the actual speech.

http://thefederalist.com/2017/07/13/heres-the-speech-jeff-sessions-del​ivered-to-christian-first-amendment-lawyers/

You might want to take a break from the normal Fark behavior of not reading stuff and actually read this so you can perhaps form an educated opinion.  Just sayin.


Well, I read it and still maintain the position that Sessions is a POS and religion is not under assat. Just super sayin.
 
2017-07-14 11:38:32 AM  
Not under *assault*

/I has preview skillz
 
2017-07-14 11:39:05 AM  
Well fark me.  The Attorney General had a closed door meeting (read: evangelical christian circle-jerk) with a group - the Alliance Defending America - that has been behind ALL of the anti-LGBT, anti-trans laws, bathroom bills and these odious "religious freedom laws" that make it legal to discriminate against us queers.  Not only that, but the Alliance works in conjunction with two other anti-LGBT hate groups, the Focus on the Family and the Family Research Council.

Oh, and the exported their hate to Africa, where they helped write laws in Christian African countries that criminalized homosexuality, in some cases with the death penalty.

Yeah, this is who that evil little Keebler elf who just happens to be the UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL just met with.

You know what really sucks?  The majority of Americans are either ignorant of this group, the ADA, or they just don't give a f*ck what happens to "those people" every time the ADA gets their way in court.

And you better believe I'm damned nervous about the upcoming SCOTUS case involving the infamous "gay wedding cake" kerfuffle.  Because if SCOTUS rules in favor of the Plaintiffs - that being the "christian" bakers from Colorado who didn't want to make a cake for the icky lesbians - it will open the door to federal anti-gay religious freedom laws like the proposed First Amendment Defense Act (which, conveniently, Jeff Sessions is the co-sponsor of).  And that, frankly, scares the shiat out of me.
 
2017-07-14 11:41:40 AM  

Diogenes: Voiceofreason01: Why is it when a Republican talks about "freedom" and "rights" they're invariably talking about stripping away individual rights from the most vulnerable citizens?

They oddly and illogically believe that if something is inclusive of everyone, it is somehow still exclusive of them.  That's wrong, clearly.  But what lies underneath is power:  inclusivity means they lose power.  It means they have to share.  It means they don't get to exclusively call the shots for everyone else.

They're not bemoaning the loss of freedom or rights, strictly speaking.  They're bemoaning the loss of freedom and the right to discriminate and disenfranchise others.  That's entirely different.


True enough for the ones in positions of power.  For your average working Joe/Jane Republican voter, I do believe the besieged/threatened feeling is real, and in a certain sense, not entirely inaccurate, although the threat is much less malign than they think it is.  Their way of life is how they define 'normal;' America is a Christian nation because everyone I know goes to church and there's no mosque in my town; black people are poor and violent and it's their fault and all the bad news I read or watch on TV about "those places" confirms it; queer people are gross and shameful because when I was growing up hardly anyone dared to be out, and those few who did were ostracized; blah blah blah.  All of that is getting upended, and fast, thanks largely to the internet, which is why, as gross as it can be, it's such a vital and necessary resource, so yes, absolutely their 'normal' worldview is being not just eroded, but gullywashed away in a flash flood.  And change is hard.  And they (wrongly, but not completely irrationally) view rights as a finite bucket or an already set table where if others start showing up to dinner, they're going to have to settle for one scoop of mashed potatoes instead of two.  We live in an extremely commodified society where for one person to gain something, someone else must have to give up something; it's the metaphor we swim in.  And that fear and reluctance to give up the seat at the table that already feels so precarious is so, so very easy for politicians and religious leaders to prey on, so a lot of them do.

The only things I've ever figure out to do about it are 1) keep voting for the people who represent the greater good, and make my expectations and concerns plainly and frequently known to them; 2) live my life as fully and freely and honestly and with as much goodwill to my fellow human beings as I possibly can, so that folks see and interact with a kind, thoughtful, helpful person who also just happens to be one of those queeroids that seemed kinda weird and scary in the abstract but maybe aren't such a big deal after all; and 3) listen to other people, especially people whose voices tend to go unheard, and accept that their complaints are valid and real, without trying to whitewash them to assuage my own privileged guilt.  I hope I'm at least having a small non-negative impact on the world I inhabit.
 
2017-07-14 11:41:56 AM  
 
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