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    More: Sad, Grenfell Tower, London tower block, botched election gamble, Prime Minister Theresa, deeply divided society, heavy police guard, Islamist militant attacks, English-language films  
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17038 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Jun 2017 at 9:32 AM (14 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2017-06-18 07:57:24 AM  
vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2017-06-18 09:34:21 AM  
"May met residents from the Grenfell Tower and vowed to personally oversee the recovery as protesters gathered to demonstrate in the streets around her residence for a second day. "

Is she going to be as competent at it as she has been at everything else?
 
2017-06-18 09:36:32 AM  

Bslim: "May met residents from the Grenfell Tower and vowed to personally oversee the recovery as protesters gathered to demonstrate in the streets around her residence for a second day. "

Is she going to be as competent at it as she has been at everything else?


Dozens more dying of smoke inhalation after treatment and release?
 
2017-06-18 09:37:06 AM  
Also, 62 people have been reported dead due to forest fires in Portugal. Apparently many of them were killed in their cars as they tried to escape. What a horrible way to go.
 
2017-06-18 09:37:28 AM  

Bslim: "May met residents from the Grenfell Tower and vowed to personally oversee the recovery as protesters gathered to demonstrate in the streets around her residence for a second day. "

Is she going to be as competent at it as she has been at everything else?


She's an accomplished plasterer, just don't let her make any decisions.
 
2017-06-18 09:38:20 AM  
terrible way to go, just awful.
 
2017-06-18 09:38:24 AM  
What I wonder is, are the builders and property owners going to be held liable for the deaths?
 
2017-06-18 09:42:50 AM  

loonatic112358: What I wonder is, are the builders and property owners going to be held liable for the deaths?


Quite possible.  The supplier of materials specifically warned that they were not suitable for buildings higher than fire ladders.
 
2017-06-18 09:45:35 AM  

loonatic112358: What I wonder is, are the builders and property owners going to be held liable for the deaths?


I hope so.  Even the Code of Hammurabi in 1750 BC society knew to hold builders accountable for the safety of their work.  Of course, putting them to death isn't the solution anymore (thankfully), but charges for some type of murder for those responsible wouldn't be unreasonable.
 
2017-06-18 09:45:53 AM  
When I saw how the building went up, I thought, this is real Dubai shiat. Like, this happens in shiathole pretend countries that don't have building codes and do chintzy, cost-saving moves to make things look good.

Good Christ. This really is going to bring down the government.
 
2017-06-18 09:47:55 AM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: When I saw how the building went up, I thought, this is real Dubai shiat. Like, this happens in shiathole pretend countries that don't have building codes and do chintzy, cost-saving moves to make things look good.

Good Christ. This really is going to bring down the government.


This is what ends up happening when profits are put before people, kids.
 
2017-06-18 09:49:55 AM  
I was hoping this was a Saudi Arabia beheading thread...
 
2017-06-18 09:52:42 AM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: When I saw how the building went up, I thought, this is real Dubai shiat. Like, this happens in shiathole pretend countries that don't have building codes and do chintzy, cost-saving moves to make things look good.

Good Christ. This really is going to bring down the government.


It went up in flames in 15 minutes, which is about 45 minutes short of the absolute bare minimum code-worthy construction... to top it all off it didn't have a centralized fire alarm system and no sprinklers to contain and abate the fire AND they told residents to stay in their apartments for years. Basically it was a concrete coffin and everybody knows the number of dead is going to be above 100.
 
2017-06-18 09:57:00 AM  

Bslim: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: When I saw how the building went up, I thought, this is real Dubai shiat. Like, this happens in shiathole pretend countries that don't have building codes and do chintzy, cost-saving moves to make things look good.

Good Christ. This really is going to bring down the government.

This is what ends up happening when profits are put before people, kids.


Not even that, because how much is this fire going to cost in the end?

This is what happens when immediate (see: quarterly) profits are held above all long term planning or consequences.

We've built a culture of "show me the maximum amount of money you can get right this second and damn the future" and you can see it in nearly every aspect of life if you look hard enough.
 
2017-06-18 10:01:41 AM  
Make it 59, because May's career is as dead as they are.
 
2017-06-18 10:02:09 AM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: When I saw how the building went up, I thought, this is real Dubai shiat. Like, this happens in shiathole pretend countries that don't have building codes and do chintzy, cost-saving moves to make things look good.

Good Christ. This really is going to bring down the government.


Was this government housing? Were they responsible for building it?
 
2017-06-18 10:04:06 AM  
img.fark.netMiss me yet?
 
2017-06-18 10:09:27 AM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: When I saw how the building went up, I thought, this is real Dubai shiat. Like, this happens in shiathole pretend countries that don't have building codes and do chintzy, cost-saving moves to make things look good.

Good Christ. This really is going to bring down the government.


I want to believe that, but no.

Britain's new Northern Irish overlords are the most openly racist people in western Europe, and can be expected to give less than no farks just because a few brown people burned to death in England. (Loyalists are especially notorious for harassing any non-whites who try to settle in NI, but nationalists are reportedly not much better.)

It's the sort of place where refugees the British government tried to settle there have reportedly ended up begging to be sent back to their home country because they felt even less safe in Ulster than they had at home.

The DUP have no reason to refuse to pass up Tory offers of pork for NI over Grenfell Tower.
 
2017-06-18 10:09:57 AM  

BalugaJoe: [vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net image 200x133]


I seem to remember a similar situation in 'To Play the King'.
 
2017-06-18 10:12:51 AM  

shelockhomegirl: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: When I saw how the building went up, I thought, this is real Dubai shiat. Like, this happens in shiathole pretend countries that don't have building codes and do chintzy, cost-saving moves to make things look good.

Good Christ. This really is going to bring down the government.

Was this government housing? Were they responsible for building it?


This is the equivalent of blaming President Trump because the government of NYC built a building that complied with code 40+ years ago, even though we now know that isn't safe, and then the government of NYC decided to refurbish the outside and made it even less safe without bringing the inside fully up to code.
 
2017-06-18 10:14:33 AM  
According to this bbc article the department for communities and local government says polyethylene core cladding shouldn't be used on buildings over 18 metres, Grenfell Tower was around 60 metres. There is also an interview with the Chancellor in which he states that he believes that it is illegal to use that kind of cladding on high rises.

Still don't know all the facts but if this turns out to be a case of people dying because someone decided to cut corners to keep costs down or to raise profits then they should be nailed to the farking wall.
 
2017-06-18 10:15:21 AM  
The important thing is that privatization saved a few bucks
 
2017-06-18 10:17:16 AM  
and how many more before they finish searching
 
2017-06-18 10:18:34 AM  

gar1013: shelockhomegirl: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: When I saw how the building went up, I thought, this is real Dubai shiat. Like, this happens in shiathole pretend countries that don't have building codes and do chintzy, cost-saving moves to make things look good.

Good Christ. This really is going to bring down the government.

Was this government housing? Were they responsible for building it?

This is the equivalent of blaming President Trump because the government of NYC built a building that complied with code 40+ years ago, even though we now know that isn't safe, and then the government of NYC decided to refurbish the outside and made it even less safe without bringing the inside fully up to code.


Don't bring New York City into your little fantasy of how this is.
 
2017-06-18 10:20:14 AM  

MikeyFuccon: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: When I saw how the building went up, I thought, this is real Dubai shiat. Like, this happens in shiathole pretend countries that don't have building codes and do chintzy, cost-saving moves to make things look good.

Good Christ. This really is going to bring down the government.

I want to believe that, but no.

Britain's new Northern Irish overlords are the most openly racist people in western Europe, and can be expected to give less than no farks just because a few brown people burned to death in England. (Loyalists are especially notorious for harassing any non-whites who try to settle in NI, but nationalists are reportedly not much better.)

It's the sort of place where refugees the British government tried to settle there have reportedly ended up begging to be sent back to their home country because they felt even less safe in Ulster than they had at home.

The DUP have no reason to refuse to pass up Tory offers of pork for NI over Grenfell Tower.


I'm not British, so I don't know, but I can see Tory backbenchers revolting over DUP demands. I don't see the fully seated party acquiescing to insane NI requirements, leading to a crisis of government.
 
2017-06-18 10:20:39 AM  
I'd be surprised if this whole mess doesn't result in some manslaughter charges.
 
2017-06-18 10:23:26 AM  

gar1013: shelockhomegirl: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: When I saw how the building went up, I thought, this is real Dubai shiat. Like, this happens in shiathole pretend countries that don't have building codes and do chintzy, cost-saving moves to make things look good.

Good Christ. This really is going to bring down the government.

Was this government housing? Were they responsible for building it?

This is the equivalent of blaming President Trump because the government of NYC built a building that complied with code 40+ years ago, even though we now know that isn't safe, and then the government of NYC decided to refurbish the outside and made it even less safe without bringing the inside fully up to code.


No it's not. Now move along and go be dumb elsewhere.
 
2017-06-18 10:26:27 AM  
Worst death toll from a fire since WW2.  Damn.  When you think of it that way, we really failed those people.
 
2017-06-18 10:33:42 AM  

Delta1212: Not even that, because how much is this fire going to cost in the end?


To the people who are already planning to buy the lot and throw up luxury flats for sale to Russian gangsters? They just saved the fortune it would have cost to buy out the browns who refused to move on. This cost them less than nothing.

The cost will be borne by the families and friends of survivors who will have to  give them refuge till they get back on their feet, if they ever do.

The white English who voted Leave because they think the browns are the reason they can't live anywhere decent? I'd like to see Tess dare suggest that. They thought Leave was a vote for more free crap for themselves, and went ballistic when Tess couldn't or wouldn't deliver.
 
2017-06-18 10:34:05 AM  
As long as it is cheaper to pay fines and compensation than tit is to build correctly with concerns for the safety of the occupants, similar events will occur. If the building was intended for the rich, would the construction techniques and materials have been the same?

Lawmakers and public officials are coming out of their exclusive clubs for photo ops and short meeting with survivors-

Remember the dead and injured in this tragedy- and make the lawmakers accountable .
 
2017-06-18 10:34:21 AM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: When I saw how the building went up, I thought, this is real Dubai shiat. Like, this happens in shiathole pretend countries that don't have building codes and do chintzy, cost-saving moves to make things look good.

Good Christ. This really is going to bring down the government.


Yep, the UK has enough time and man power to drive around councils checking to make sure nobody is watchin tele without a license, but apparently fire safety checks and requiring suppression systems in high rises is just too much.

/priorities you know.
 
2017-06-18 10:34:44 AM  
"This prime minister is not viable."

Yes, because the PM's job is to personally do building safety inspections.

*eyeroll*
 
2017-06-18 10:36:35 AM  
Shelter in place for high rise buildings is nothing new or unique about this situation. However, shelter in place comes with the expectation that the building will contain the fire long enough for firefighters to respond and people to evacuate, not that it will burn multiple floors from the outside inward because someone saved a couple bucks to literally wrap the structure with fire.

Any tall building wrapped with this burnable shiat should have its occupancy revoked as a death trap and all the money that the building owner saved can go towards replacing it with the fireproof version. Of course, that won't happen.
 
2017-06-18 10:43:57 AM  

AntonChigger: Also, 62 people have been reported dead due to forest fires in Portugal. Apparently many of them were killed in their cars as they tried to escape. What a horrible way to go.


Horrible.  I still find it shocking that no one died escaping the Fort McMurray fires in Canada.

 
2017-06-18 10:49:29 AM  
re the other numbers

£8.6 million total budget for 'renovations'
£2.6 million for cladding installation (seems to include replacement windows, too)

so, 2.6 million of 8.6 million is easily close enough to 30% to make no difference, that is the cladding (and windows) got 30% of the overall budget.

it will be informative to know more about the other 70%

but, taking the 2.6 million for cladding (and windows, afaik)
easy math, 10% of 2.6 million is 260,000
and so 1% of 2.6 million is 26,000

and obviously now 0.1% of 2.6 million is 2,600

one figure repeatedly published is that for around a total of £5,000 a safer cladding could have been used over the entire building

so, in summary, the cladding (and window) budget was 30% of the total 'renovation' budget. and, a safer alternative cladding would have worked out as 0.2% of the budget used for cladding (and window)

or, that £5,000 being bandied about would have been one five-hundredth of the cladding (and window) budget, which was 30% of the overall budget

/i'm sure in time some form of argument will make an appearance as to whether the marginally more expensive alternative was really 'as good as is being suggested' etc. also, it would probably be more useful to see what a similar sum equated to in terms of other money spent (or perhaps in some cases one might lean towards 'pissed away') within the overall project, rather than as mere numbers, but we'll have to wait for more info on that sort of thing
 
2017-06-18 10:52:51 AM  
Building still standing though.
 
2017-06-18 10:59:09 AM  
The most striking figure I've seen so far is that the difference between the fire-resistant cladding that should have been used on the building, and the flammable stuff that actually was used is a savings of all of £2 per square metre.
 
2017-06-18 11:00:09 AM  

loonatic112358: What I wonder is, are the builders and property owners going to be held liable for the deaths?


Apparently the building is the equivalent of "The Projects" in US cities.  It is owned by the Council, and is for poor people.  I rarely watch videos, but the one on TFA autoplayed and I did:  Apparently the Brits have the exact problems with their Projects and slums as we do in the States.  Takes months to get anything fixed, mold and rot everywhere.

Rich NIMBYs across the street fighting any improvement plans, etc.

It was chilling.
 
2017-06-18 11:05:23 AM  
It's a far lower number than I expected, given the way that building was burning and the size of it. I fully expected hundreds, at least.

Of course, no loss of life in a situation such as this is acceptable. This building was woefully inadequate as a place of residence, and people deserve not to live in a deathtrap.

I'm actually looking to move out of my apartment complex after this. My place is actually very nice, and it's well-maintained, but I think I'm tired of living in a place where no matter how smart or diligent I am, I still remain in danger of having everything I own-- or my life-- destroyed because the pothead next door knocks over a candle while he's out of it, or the moron upstairs causes a fire due to some stupid act. I don't like my well-being to balance on the intelligence and caution of other people in my building.

That, and I'm tired of paying more and getting less floor space... But I've had qualms about my apartment-dwelling since I first started living in apartments in the mid-90s; Too many bad buildings, too many bad neighbors, and too many other complete strangers who become part of the equation of my life.

I do hope the people who died in this fire have family that can at least raise the flag and fight the good fight so this doesn't happen again.
 
2017-06-18 11:07:23 AM  

21-7-b: re the other numbers

£8.6 million total budget for 'renovations'
£2.6 million for cladding installation (seems to include replacement windows, too)

so, 2.6 million of 8.6 million is easily close enough to 30% to make no difference, that is the cladding (and windows) got 30% of the overall budget.

it will be informative to know more about the other 70%

but, taking the 2.6 million for cladding (and windows, afaik)
easy math, 10% of 2.6 million is 260,000
and so 1% of 2.6 million is 26,000

and obviously now 0.1% of 2.6 million is 2,600

one figure repeatedly published is that for around a total of £5,000 a safer cladding could have been used over the entire building

so, in summary, the cladding (and window) budget was 30% of the total 'renovation' budget. and, a safer alternative cladding would have worked out as 0.2% of the budget used for cladding (and window)

or, that £5,000 being bandied about would have been one five-hundredth of the cladding (and window) budget, which was 30% of the overall budget

/i'm sure in time some form of argument will make an appearance as to whether the marginally more expensive alternative was really 'as good as is being suggested' etc. also, it would probably be more useful to see what a similar sum equated to in terms of other money spent (or perhaps in some cases one might lean towards 'pissed away') within the overall project, rather than as mere numbers, but we'll have to wait for more info on that sort of thing


if the paneling cost £22/m2 and was £2 cheaper, that's about 9%.  if they saved only £5000, then the total cost of paneling was £55000?  those must have been some expensive windows to make up the difference
 
2017-06-18 11:12:59 AM  

Deep Contact: Building still standing though.


The Laws of Physics apply on the other side of the pond.
 
2017-06-18 11:14:36 AM  
Visiting the UK for a few weeks. The Vox populi seems to be that the material used to insulate and "modernize" the tower block was cheap and flammable,  and that for a few quid more they could have had the fireproof version.  The cover of the Sun accuses the slumlords of murder, and other opinion articles blame it on "green-washing".  The most harrowing saying things like "they died because they were poor".  Quite an uproar, with citizens storming the local MP's office.

  I've not seen the block yet, but I will tomorrow.  I actually liked the tower blocks here before... The view from most is pretty great.

 This seems to be a very English response to this sort of tragedy.   I expect (unlike in the states) tower living will get a bit safer in the near future.
 
2017-06-18 11:22:42 AM  

WilderKWight: It's a far lower number than I expected, given the way that building was burning and the size of it. I fully expected hundreds, at least.

Of course, no loss of life in a situation such as this is acceptable. This building was woefully inadequate as a place of residence, and people deserve not to live in a deathtrap.

I'm actually looking to move out of my apartment complex after this. My place is actually very nice, and it's well-maintained, but I think I'm tired of living in a place where no matter how smart or diligent I am, I still remain in danger of having everything I own-- or my life-- destroyed because the pothead next door knocks over a candle while he's out of it, or the moron upstairs causes a fire due to some stupid act. I don't like my well-being to balance on the intelligence and caution of other people in my building.

That, and I'm tired of paying more and getting less floor space... But I've had qualms about my apartment-dwelling since I first started living in apartments in the mid-90s; Too many bad buildings, too many bad neighbors, and too many other complete strangers who become part of the equation of my life.

I do hope the people who died in this fire have family that can at least raise the flag and fight the good fight so this doesn't happen again.


they key figure so far is "at least 58". It's going to go higher
 
2017-06-18 11:27:37 AM  

Dead for Tax Reasons: 21-7-b: re the other numbers

£8.6 million total budget for 'renovations'
£2.6 million for cladding installation (seems to include replacement windows, too)

so, 2.6 million of 8.6 million is easily close enough to 30% to make no difference, that is the cladding (and windows) got 30% of the overall budget.

it will be informative to know more about the other 70%

but, taking the 2.6 million for cladding (and windows, afaik)
easy math, 10% of 2.6 million is 260,000
and so 1% of 2.6 million is 26,000

and obviously now 0.1% of 2.6 million is 2,600

one figure repeatedly published is that for around a total of £5,000 a safer cladding could have been used over the entire building

so, in summary, the cladding (and window) budget was 30% of the total 'renovation' budget. and, a safer alternative cladding would have worked out as 0.2% of the budget used for cladding (and window)

or, that £5,000 being bandied about would have been one five-hundredth of the cladding (and window) budget, which was 30% of the overall budget

/i'm sure in time some form of argument will make an appearance as to whether the marginally more expensive alternative was really 'as good as is being suggested' etc. also, it would probably be more useful to see what a similar sum equated to in terms of other money spent (or perhaps in some cases one might lean towards 'pissed away') within the overall project, rather than as mere numbers, but we'll have to wait for more info on that sort of thing

if the paneling cost £22/m2 and was £2 cheaper, that's about 9%.  if they saved only £5000, then the total cost of paneling was £55000?  those must have been some expensive windows to make up the difference


thanks, i had only seen the savings figure for the cladding

/speaking of windows, i wonder which countries they'll have been banned in?
 
2017-06-18 11:34:37 AM  
They tried to warn us.

img.fark.net
 
2017-06-18 11:35:27 AM  
wow. just wow.
 
2017-06-18 11:41:00 AM  

Robo Beat: The most striking figure I've seen so far is that the difference between the fire-resistant cladding that should have been used on the building, and the flammable stuff that actually was used is a savings of all of £2 per square metre.


So that's about 25 cents per square foot if my math is right.  Hmm, the average apartment unit would have about 24' of facade, and 10' high.  30% windows means you're looking at around 160sf and around 40 bucks a unit to prevent this.  Welcome to developer math where 58 people's lives aren't worth that amount.  Shameful doesn't begin to describe this.
 
2017-06-18 11:43:08 AM  
Here's what happens in the US when stuff like this happens: Hyatt Regency walkway collapse
 
2017-06-18 11:44:35 AM  

Bslim: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: When I saw how the building went up, I thought, this is real Dubai shiat. Like, this happens in shiathole pretend countries that don't have building codes and do chintzy, cost-saving moves to make things look good.

Good Christ. This really is going to bring down the government.

This is what ends up happening when profits are put before people, kids.


And the sad thing is, it's not like the savings were massive. It didn't halve the cost of the project or anything. It sounds like they saved £5,000 on a £6 million renovation budget.

This is what austerity really looks like. Cut a few bucks so the plebes don't get the crazy idea that they're worth anything. And when the true cost comes out, it's magnitudes higher than the savings.
 
2017-06-18 12:17:00 PM  

BlippityBleep: loonatic112358: What I wonder is, are the builders and property owners going to be held liable for the deaths?

 Of course, putting them to death isn't the solution anymore (thankfully)


Why thankfully?  If they'd be killed for screwing up like this, you really think that they'd have tried to save 5000 pounds using flammable cladding?

shelockhomegirl: Was this government housing? Were they responsible for building it?


Yes it was government housing.  They weren't responsible for building it, but it had been recently renovated, when the flammable cladding was used.

NephilimNexus: "This prime minister is not viable."

Yes, because the PM's job is to personally do building safety inspections.


No safety inspection was needed.  All that needed to be done was to hire a competent company to renovate the building, instead of giving the contract to her cronies.
 
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