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(Reuters) NewsFlash Artillery shell with sarin explodes in Iraq, ignites flame war on Fark   (reuters.com) divider line 1251
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28165 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 May 2004 at 4:23 PM (10 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2004-05-17 05:34:50 PM  
So there was a tiny *poof* of smoke from this thing, which probably could have been assembled by a 16-year-old Iraqi, and some morons, including supposedly fair and balanced news organizations, are jumping up and down calling it a WMD?
The thing did what it was supposed to do - it went off and released its horrific payload (an entire colony of ants was killed!), and yet only two soldiers were treated for insignificant injuries.
Have you heard the term WMD so many times that you've forgoten what it even means?
Hey idiots, WMD stands for Weapon of Mass Destruction.

Not only is a 150 mm round with what will probably turn out to be a handful of matchheads inside it not a Weapon of Mass Destruction, in this case it's not even a Weapon of Minor Irritation.
 
2004-05-17 05:34:56 PM  
No, I'm not attempting to justify this war in the least- but I am curious...

There is a hell of a lot of desert out there. Assuming (and ONLY assuming) Iraq did indeed manage to stockpile a friggin' warehouse full of chemical weapons under a sand dune somewhere without us noticing, and six months from now, a tank falls through the roof and we find the place...

(... Not likely, I know... we've had so much recon on that country for the last 10 years, such a feat would be damned near impossible (unless it's was already in hiding long time ago...) but I'm talking strictly "What if...?" here. Or maybe "Elseworlds" if you're a DC fan. :) )


Will that really change anything?

I'd expect maybe a dozen astonished... "shiat... they're were actually right..." buried underneith thousands of new arguments about it taking too long, or how the weapons were old, or how Bush had them planted... etc etc...

... or even better, that we knew about it's location since the beginning, and have just been saving it as a trump-card right before the election. (Actually, I could believe that. Never mind... ;) )

We could find an undergrould lab with a working time machine, Hitler's brain, an army of Terminators, and the lost Metal Gear- I still find it hard to belive that most of the loudest complainers about this war would change their stance for a second.
 
2004-05-17 05:35:49 PM  
21-7-b - actually, Machiavelli despised conspiracies:

"For it is conceded only to a few to be able to make open war against a Prince, but the ability to conspire against them is conceded to everyone. On the other hand, private citizens do not enter in an enterprise more perilous nor more foolhardy than this, as it is difficult and most dangerous in all of its parts. Whence it happens that many are attempted, and very few have the desired ending. So that, therefore, Princes may learn to guard themselves from these dangers, and that Private Citizens may less rashly engage in them, and rather may learn to live contentedly under the Rule that has been assigned to them by chance and by their state..."

The Discourses of Livy
Nicolo Machiavelli
Book III, Chapter VI.
 
2004-05-17 05:35:54 PM  
VideoVader

The missiles are not the issue. The warhead, delivery portion of the missile is what I'm talking about. Do you have any information showing that Iraq had posession of a warhead that was capable of distributing sarin or a weaponized bioagent in a wide area?
 
2004-05-17 05:35:58 PM  
First a fake beheading and now fake WMD's (or, more accurately, "WMD").....wonder what's next??
 
2004-05-17 05:36:57 PM  


Time for more llamas methinks...
 
2004-05-17 05:37:04 PM  
Don't mind me! I just came on this thread to browse at the silly pictures. Carry on.
 
2004-05-17 05:37:11 PM  
"2004-05-17 05:08:17 PM 21-7-b
what if the cia planted it, this just one bomb, is that all it would take for you to support some war as being justified?

man you are so weak"

Hell, why not just blame it on the j00s? This shell doesn't make the war unjustified or justified. Those who have two braincells to rub together never doubted that Saddam had WMDs. Just the other week, Al Qaida terrorists were caught in Jordan planning to detonate serveral chemical munitions capable of killing upwards of 80,000 people. These clowns admitted on tape that their training and chemical weapons came from Iraq by way of Syria.

No, this is just a chance for people like me to laugh at people like you. *We* are the Americans (not you), *WE* love our country (not you), *WE* have enough mental balance to not think "Teh CIA" are involved in stumping your toe as you got out of bed this AM.

Know something else? The future of America isn't yours--it's ours. So stop bothering me, kid before I go give you some pro-American sensitivity training.
 
2004-05-17 05:37:18 PM  
OK, came in way to late on this thread. I don't have time to read all the posts, so who's the major flaming between now?
 
2004-05-17 05:37:26 PM  
Oooh, enough sarin to give a U.S. marine a headache...

That's almost twice as much as the traces of ricin found in the paris airport about a year ago...
 
2004-05-17 05:37:32 PM  
You've got to be joking. The "liberals" aren't the ones spinning this.

Flame Wars RULE!
 
2004-05-17 05:37:48 PM  
Is this recently manufactured Sarin, or NOS from the days when we were helping him evil WMDs to drop on that pesky Iran?

 
2004-05-17 05:37:50 PM  
SmitetheRighteous

That's it, I can't let this slide. We had a chance to disarm Saddam without nuclear holocaust. That's the difference. I'm NOT saying that he had WMD, I'm saying it would be less bloody than nuclear winter. You remember WarGames? ANY attempt to go get the WMD from Russia means world goes boom.

To a lesser extent, this applies to North Korea and China. They both have nukes and if we tried to take them away, parts of the world go boom.

And your argument seems to imply a secular, brutal nation is better than a theocratic, brutal nation. I see no difference.

Again, this is just questioning your logic. I am in no way defending Bush or Saddam or Osama or any other asshat in this world. I'm just asking if you understand the realities of the situation with the USSR.
 
2004-05-17 05:37:52 PM  
Does this remind any of you of the trailers that supposedly were for chemicals?

I do and the comments coming from them sound about the same. That is if you are listening.

http://www.wtkr.com/Global/story.asp?S=1873574&nav=0oa8AfMQ
 
2004-05-17 05:37:55 PM  


Heeeeeeeeere we go.
 
2004-05-17 05:38:27 PM  
you mean that i have to stick this thing into my heart?

/nick cage
 
2004-05-17 05:38:28 PM  
This flame war brought to you by the letter K.

And the makers of:


 
2004-05-17 05:38:41 PM  
2004-05-17 05:16:27 PM spidergoat:

http://www.mitretek.org/home.nsf/homelandsecurity/BinaryChemWeapons

"Binary Chemical Weapons

"Binary chemical weapons mix two, separate, relatively non-toxic chemicals in flight to create a toxic chemical agent...GB Binary...Methylphosphonyl difluoride (DF) is initially located in one canister, while a mixture (OPA) of isopropyl alcohol and isopropyl amine is located in a separate canister. When the weapon is fired (or otherwise delivered), a disk between the canisters ruptures, and the two components react in flight to produce GB."

This shell didn't spray out a big cloud of nerve gas because the projectile was never launched, meaning it was never subjected to the G force necessary to rupture the internal membrane - which would have allowed the chemicals to mix in flight. I rather suspect we'll find out eventually that the chemicals had degraded because the shell was so old, and the thing wasn't that deadly anymore, anyway. Think of it as a kind of nasty pesticide spill, but not much more than that. The detonator/explosive charge in this kind of shell is probably a smallish charge that is only meant to increase the probability that the shell will burst on impact. Outside of the binary/nerve gas aspects, this artillery-shell-as-gas-delivery-system technology is quite old; as old as WWI. I'll wager the mujahedin didn't even know what it was, and thought it was just another run-of-the-mill 155mm artillery shell packed with HE.
 
2004-05-17 05:39:00 PM  
[go on debunk the conspiracy theory]

But that's the beauty of your conspiracy theory - it can't be proved or disproved!

Consider your rant stolen for my next Delta Green game. My players will LOVE it!
 
2004-05-17 05:39:12 PM  
It is all spin kids read away

http://www.wtkr.com/Global/story.asp?S=1873574&nav=0oa8AfMQ
 
2004-05-17 05:39:24 PM  
155mm shell: Used by NATO and US forces. Nuff said!
 
2004-05-17 05:39:25 PM  
Weaver95

actually, Machiavelli despised conspiracies


Not quite. He merely stated that they rarely succeed in dethroning the sovereign ruler.
 
2004-05-17 05:39:32 PM  
"2004-05-17 05:29:51 PM hassenpfeffer


Every time LittleCamel posts something, we all get dumber."

...as if you needed help.
 
2004-05-17 05:39:51 PM  
Littlecamel

Where do you have evidence saying the Al-Queda terrorists in Jordan got their training in Iraq?

And, given that Bush and Powell have both stated that it is entirely possible that Saddam did not have WMDs, does that mean they don't have "two braincells to rub together"?

Also, I'd like to remind you that threatening harm to another is not only against the Fark rules of etiquette, but a crime in this country you say you love so much.
 
2004-05-17 05:40:00 PM  
There is a hell of a lot of desert out there. Assuming (and ONLY assuming) Iraq did indeed manage to stockpile a friggin' warehouse full of chemical weapons under a sand dune somewhere without us noticing, and six months from now, a tank falls through the roof and we find the place...

(... Not likely, I know... we've had so much recon on that country for the last 10 years, such a feat would be damned near impossible (unless it's was already in hiding long time ago...) but I'm talking strictly "What if...?" here. Or maybe "Elseworlds" if you're a DC fan. :) )


To me, the argument Bush was using was the "imminent threat" one. The WMD evidence was faulty, but I wouldn't have been very surprised if they were found. The problem I had was Bush painting Saddam as an imminent threat to the US, which as far as I'm concerned is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. It's like saying a mean-spirited seventh-grader is an imminent threat to me because he might have a baseball bat. I'm not debating whether or not Saddam was an awful person, nor whether or not he hated the US. Both are fairly indisputable. But to think he was dumb enough to launch chemical or nuclear attacks against the US is just wrong, especially considering that we have a much more dangerous enemy all too willing to attack us in the form of al-Qaeda and countless other Islamicist groups.
 
2004-05-17 05:40:28 PM  
spelunking defenestrator,

again...

this does not vindicate the WMD claims. this stuff could have been found in a chemical dump. it was a stray cannister, perhaps scavenged from iran/iraq. not a stockpile. this is not what bush had in mind when we went over there. i'm not saying a stockpile doesn't exist, but if it did don't you think it would have been found by now?


They still haven't found DB Cooper for god's sakes. It took forever for them to find that abortion clinic bomber, and he was walking around in Georgia in broad daylight.

It'll take years before we are even reasonably certain anything was there. Saddam, acting as if he had something to hide, had all of the time between the first GW in 1991 to 2003 to conceal his labs/manufacturing processes and then had 11 months to hide/move anything he had produced. It could be on the frickin North Pole by now.

A point I've raised before is that Saddam and his cronies were/are operating under a contingency plan. The Fallujah attacks were planned before the invasion was underway according to intel gathered from captured Iraqi insurgents. Saddam is no dummie. He was obviously waiting it out, waiting as long as he could for domestic political pressure combined with guerilla combat to force us to leave so he could resume power from a weakened authority. If not, then why did he stay in Baghdad? He was there for a reason...he was waiting. Part of that 'lay low' plan logically would conclude that everything he had that he wanted to hide would've been secreted away until his return when he could in effect 'take the tarp off and dust things off', picking up where he left off.

He was waiting for anti-war sentiment and a trickling of casualties to drive Bush out. Those WMD are somewhere closeby...that's my opinion. Scientists had reference strains in their freezers, mothballed machines of dual use capacity were just sitting. None of this would be like this if he didn't want to pick it back up at a later date.
 
2004-05-17 05:40:41 PM  
Yeah he had em, it's on the reciept... duh.

We gave them to him remember?
 
2004-05-17 05:40:43 PM  
LittleCamel

you big girl's blouse, come here and give me a kiss
 
2004-05-17 05:40:55 PM  

Llama Llama Llama!!!!

0ok
 
2004-05-17 05:40:55 PM  
hassenpfeffer: "Every time LittleCamel posts something, we all get dumber."


The most astute observation in the whole thread...
 
2004-05-17 05:40:59 PM  
LittleCamel,
Although I agree completely that any CIA theories on the surfacing of this shell are completely ludicrous, if the American future really is in the hands of folks like you, I may start building nukes now.
 
2004-05-17 05:41:30 PM  


I'm suprisingly attracted to this one

/Did I say that out loud?
/Play nice everyone
 
2004-05-17 05:41:41 PM  
Somebody wake me when all this crap makes sense.
 
2004-05-17 05:41:46 PM  
I saw a sarin.
 
2004-05-17 05:41:47 PM  
The guy who planted this bomb , probably didn't know it had sarin.
 
2004-05-17 05:41:53 PM  
 
2004-05-17 05:42:09 PM  
weaver i'm touched, and you're stupid
 
2004-05-17 05:42:33 PM  
Max Reax-

Bush never said the threat was imminent. He said we shouldnt wait "until the threat becomes imminent."
 
2004-05-17 05:42:39 PM  
[He merely stated that they rarely succeed in dethroning the sovereign ruler.]

Nope, he hated 'em. Not in and of themselves, but BECAUSE of thier inefficencies in seizing and maintaining power. You sort of have to read the entireity of Book III to understand what he was getting at however.

But that's a discussion for another time - it'll only interfer with the conspiracy theorists!
 
2004-05-17 05:43:07 PM  
that llama is truly beautiful.
 
2004-05-17 05:43:13 PM  
Weaver95

[[go on debunk the conspiracy theory]

But that's the beauty of your conspiracy theory - it can't be proved or disproved!]

All of you pricks remember that for the next atheist vs Christian flame war.
 
2004-05-17 05:43:28 PM  
Cosimo

That was VX, buddy.

/no points for you today
 
Kiz
2004-05-17 05:43:38 PM  
Personally, I'd like to know whether the "treatment" that the exposed soldiers had to undergo was more like "massive doses of antidote injected directly into the heart" or "here's some aspirin and a damp cloth; wash all the residue off and you should be fine."

They really don't give us much detail.
 
2004-05-17 05:44:08 PM  
NEBULA-

"in early april a jordain armed forces raided an al-quida cell in iraq. they found 2 tons of sulfric acid along with 200 other chemicals. they where plannig on making truck bomb like the ones used in oklahoma city. had they gone through with their plan they would have killed atleast 20 thousand people per bomb. now this happened in early april with no mention on any of the major networks here. so in april you had your connected of WMD, Al-Quaida, and Iraq."

amigo. I HOPE nobody is so dumb as to claim that Saddam didn't fund terrorism or have a connection. We all have known that..for a long time. The guy was a jerk off from the time he was born. But terrorism is being funded in afghanistan, Pakistan, Jordan, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Egypt,....etc, etc, etc.

Keep in mind the vast majority of the money funding these extremists has come out of Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.

We singled out one country with a ruler we really didn't get along with...and invaded it. Did the country of IRaq attack us? NO. Are there some citizens of the country that make plots against us...yes. is Saddam an ass hat..yes. There are probably 10-12 REAL asshat rulers in the world right now, as long as we live there will be asshat rulers (quadafi, Amin, Kim-jong-il, etc.). Democratic countries are not in the business of invading all of them under false pretenses.

When we went into Iraq, Bush made it sound like they had Nuclear weapons stockpiled and pointing right at us (that is what i envisioned). They didn't. Do they have chemical and biological weapons....they have had them for years.

you see...the terrorists are a scatered about in a population of people who aren't warmongers. Invading and occupying Iraq is like invading Los Angeles killing thousands of innocent people because the Gang members are a danger to society.

It was handled poorly and unethically from the beginning. Small unground groups of insurgents need to be delt with by cooperation of nations and small covert Special Operations teams to take the "bad guys" out (like in afghanistan). This is how it has been done for years. Why has it been done that way? To avoid international dissasters and a total collapse of foreign relations....like what Bush has caused.
 
2004-05-17 05:44:13 PM  
[i'm touched, and you're stupid]

No, actually i'm brilliant. But don't let that get in the way - by all means, tell us more of the CIA in the middle east.
 
2004-05-17 05:44:42 PM  
UncleBuck4U
Saddam was like a little squirrel hiding his nuts out in the desert. And just like the squirrel, I doubt he'd remember where he buried the damn things...

Heh, nice. I see your squirrel and raise you a January snowfall.

 
2004-05-17 05:44:56 PM  
The world has grown to where we need a planetary police force so the aspiring Hitlers and Hussans aren't allowed to threaten world peace ever again, on earth or in space (that's the future, people!).

The US is the only country with the $$ to support this, but there has to be a better system to rule it, several people, not one man ie a creep like Bush who gets his direction when he talks to God and Jesus! (and get rid of that wimpy United Nations who contribute NOTHING!)

I love the USA (I'm Canadian) and you can't deny we all owe them so much - if you know your History even a little bit (you think you'd have that computer in front of you if WWII turned out different?), but the current administration has GOT TO GO!!!

Trippy vibes!!
 
2004-05-17 05:45:08 PM  
To borrow a quote from SNL - the liberals haven't just drunk the Kool-Aid, they've gone back for seconds!

People, Sarin is a WMD - the only reason those two poor bastards didn't die is because the shell didn't go off properly and the two agents didn't mix. (And they probably had atropine administered very shortly after exposure.)

If that shell was put in the DC metro or the New York subway we're talking about thousands of people dead. You do not fark around with sarin it is a farking neurotoxin.

This kind of crap is why I can't take liberals seriously any more. They're so eager to prove their own smallminded prejudice against anyone who doesn't share their anti-war worldview that facts and logic go right out the door. If you're so dumb as to argue that a nerve agent doesn't classify as a WMD, then you're not living in the real world anymore.

So, sens if you're so damn convinced that a chemical warhead full of nerve agent isn't harmful, how about going into a nice room for of the stuff. I'm sure you'll have just enough time to think about blaming Bush for everything before you keel over dead.
 
2004-05-17 05:45:24 PM  
So this is where the flames went.
 
2004-05-17 05:45:25 PM  
Anyone care to comment on my earlier post that all of this is moot at this point anyway due to the loose border security and amount of time that has passed since Saddam was ousted? I swear, it's almost like you people just enjoy arguing with each other for argument's sake.
 
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