itsfiveoclocksomewhere --
"Hans Blix and the UN said there were no WMD left."


No shiat, I can't ever recall seeing Blix or the UN saying any such thing. They wanted more time.

You gave Blix and gang 12 years and you've given Bush 1 year?

"I find that there is sufficient credible information to warrant an Inquiry UP Procedure 15, AR 381-10, U.S. Army Intelligence Activities, be conducted to determine the extent of culpability of M[ilitary] I[intelligence] personnel, assigned to the 205th MI Brigade and the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC) at Abu Ghraib (BCCF). Specifically, I suspect that COL Thomas M. Pappas, LTC Steve L. Jordan, Mr. Steven Stephanowicz [sic], and Mr. John Israel were either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib (BCCF) and strongly recommend immediate disciplinary action as described in the preceding paragraphs as well as the initiation of a Procedure 15 Inquiry to determine the full extent of their culpability."

From the Taguba Report.

Who are Steven Stefanowicz and "John Israel?" Who hired them to work in Abu Ghraib? What "third country" does "John Israel" come from? On whose authority do "third country nationals" interrogate P.O.W.'s held by the American military? How could this arrangement have been made without approval from the very highest levels of our government? Why are ordinary American Reservists being forced to take the fall for "private contractors" who are "third country nationals?"

This is the crucial element in the Abu Ghraib story, and our "free press" is tip-toeing around it very gingerly. Why? What exactly is going on here? Aren't any of you curious about this?

swahnhennessy

Where the Fark have you been? Listen to Ted Kennedy or watch CSPAN if you want to see leaders speaking out against the violence/war/prisoners etc. Our own elected leaders seek to undermine the current administration, put our soldiers further in harms way during this 'war' and do so daily.

blike-Yes, he did say that:

"2004-05-12 11:38:51 AM koniver


Also, why is everyone blaming the ENTIRE thing on Bush? Yes he was the one who called for war, but he did get the approval from Congress and the United Nations. Why is nobody blaming eveyrone?"

koniver is nuts.

Al Qaeda has cells all over the world! Why wouldn't they have one in Iraq, prior to the war?

Just to be clear, Al Qaeda's camps were all found in Northern Iraq, in the Kurdish-controlled territory. Saddam didn't have functional or practical control over that region.

Why is that we expect so much of everyone else in the world when we have shown that we are just as capable of brutality and hypocrisy? Please - if that had been Osama bin Laden getting his head cut-off on that video, there'd be a LOT of Americans dancing in the streets today. Most of us on the planet want the same thing -- health, happiness, some money, a decent future for our children. Let's not demonize every Muslim or person living in the Middle East because of murderous thugs like Al Qaeda -- we have our own murderous thugs living right here in the US (the KKK is still alive and well last time I checked).

herne, dukefluke

Shut barjockey up, you cocks.

Look, the reason getting a condemnation of the bastards who beheaded the guy out of the mouths of the Iraqis, particularly the more devout Muslim ones, is like pulling hens' teeth is quite simple: Deep down, in a dark corner of their minds where every "pious" Muslim fears to go, every Iraqi male secretly wishes he was that naked guy on the end of the leash being held by the American female soldier.

C'mon, it's classic dominance/submission fantasy. The problem is that the Iraqis, being Arabs, are products of a culture so sexually disfunctional that the womenfolk have to put bags over their heads to keep from being raped when they walk outdoors. This combination of sexual repression and a level of self-control rivalling your average Cocker spaniel makes Arab men so uptight about sex, they freak out when confronted with their inner fantasies. Naturally, they lash out at anyone who tries to bring them to light.

koniver - Saddam's support of militant Palestinian groups isn't about them being Islamic. It is about them being Arabic. The Israel/Palestinian issue is mainly about self-determination of the Palestinian Arabs who were moved out of the lands the lived on for Israeli settlements more than it being a religious issue. I can't say one way or another that either side is right but Saddam's involvement was less about "getting" Americans than it was over the Palestinian issue. His support was the same on that as all the other Arabic nations.

blike: Are you kidding me? They viewed OUR evidence. Bush and Powell traveled the world looking for help, and took their dog and pony show with them. Bush got Blair involved, Powell spent time in Turkey and other countries, all to show them the "evidence" we trumped up.

"Hey you're right!! We stirred up the hornet's nest over there, and are able to fight them on their turf rather than ours. You know that if we would have overlooked 9/11, we would eventually have a full-scale war on American soil on our hands. Afghanistan is too rugged and unfamiliar to American troops. The desert of Iraq was the perfect place to stage the war against terrorism. The Pentagon IS smarter than you."

Some folks here on fark, and it's safe to say that they represent a good percentage of the population, must of had lobotomies or something because I read so many stupid comments that it's finally time to point it out.

For example, the above. How in the world would AQ attack America on America soil's if they don't even have a real army to begin with? They don't even have a navy or an airforce so how would they get here?

Iam4Mizzou

Can I reprint your photoshop?

The reports of WMD coming out of Iraq did not all start under the Bush administration. These reports were coming out for years. If you remember the previous president (I am not going to mention his name because it gets the left into a tizzy) also thought there were WMDs.

And yes Bush personally made up all those reports about WMDs. He then brainwashed Congress through his powerpoint presentations. Put on your tinfoil hat and go to the basement.

\btw, on a side note, I dig the name fiveoclocksomewhere, great song.

is it really that hard for you to believe that a muslim could be a decent, normal human being?

barjockey- well I seemed to get you to avoid even an attempt to give an intellegent response when presenting with a one or the other.

Do i get half points?

Nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

2004-05-12 11:51:34 AM Geotpf

I am probably nuts. But I am off to lunch so everyone save your posts for an hour.

Thanks.

Omega: The difference is that Bush said we knew where they were. Well? Where are they?

I think that if we wanted to invade Iraq based on failure to comply with the inspections, it would have to have been doene with UN authority. It was not. We invaded for our own reasons that had nothing to do with the UN, or Saddam's failure to comply.

Pman

Do you remember 9/11? They don't need an Army just the will to do the work and they certainly have that.

general...sure.

"He is no different thab the 700+ US troops who have died for this stupid war, no diferent than the thousands of Iraqis who have died for whatever reason the Bush administration was using that week to justify our being there."

Except the only reason he was there was to rebuild communication towers and help the iraqi people. He was unarmed and not sent there to hurt or kill anyone. And yet he was plucked off the street and beheaded because he is an american citizen and nothing more. Seems to be a HUGE difference than everyone else who has died.

Also, why is everyone blaming the ENTIRE thing on Bush?

Nicholas Berg would have a head today if Bush hadn't lied to the world about WMD's in Iraq.

Nicholas Berg would have a head today if Bush had had a plan for governing Iraq after the invasion.

Nicholas Berg would have a head today if Bush made some effort to try to free the hostages.

2004-05-12 11:52:39 AM Pman
For example, the above. How in the world would AQ attack America on America soil's if they don't even have a real army to begin with? They don't even have a navy or an airforce so how would they get here?
----------------------------

Didn't this already happen, say about 2 1/2 years ago?

koniver is a troll, people. stop feeding the monkey.

PS: Iraq had WMD, but moved them to Iran when we invaded, duh! Get a brain, morans.

The song is gay, the saying has been around for a long time before that hick got hold of it.

Why is that all week the crazy conservatives have been claiming that all Muslims are terrorists and savages because no Muslims have spoken out against the attacks and the beheading--and now that some do, they're accused of lying and "hiding smirks"?

That's like being five, demanding an apology, and then whining because you think the apologizer "didn't mean it".

Can you really not deal with evidence that there may be some Muslim good guys?

Muta

What about Daniel Perl then? What that Bush's fault as well?

Before everything gets out of hand, I'm just going to post a happy picture



Before flaming, think of the children.

NutznGum:
[And anyone who supported the war did so on the evidence presented by the Administration.]

You mean like those shills on the Senate intelligence and military oversight committees that have full access to all the /original/ intel? (ie not trumped-up, sexed-up, dressed-up, or editorialized)

You might be able to excuse a junior rep from a small state for being snowed by sexed-up intel. But to suggest that everyone in the US legislature made their decisions based solely on the word of the presidential administration, is at the very least to accuse them of being wholly imcompetent.

Either they're guilty of supporting Bush despite knowing the 'truth' about the intel, or they're guilty of not actually reading the shiat themselves, or hiring aides to do the proper research into their votes.

Either way, if Bush needs to go because he lied to the public to justify an unnecessary quagmire - then the entire legislature has to go for failing in their sworn duty to check the executive branch.

Joe Sixpack might have been snowed by Rummy's press conferences that talked about some imminent threat - but the legislature is not limited to only the popularly reported information on CNN/FOX/et al.

It is no surprise to the nominally objective observer that Al Queada (and other terrorist groups) are now operating in Iraq. The fact is whenever you have an occupying force in a country, that the majority of people who are for the most part indifferent to politics etc., who just want to go through day after day, comfortable in their routine, will give support to that minority who fight, mostly because the occupier is blamed for disrupting their routine.

When such offensive behaviours come to light, as recently have come to light, then that indifferent majority looses it's indifference. The decapitation video may make many of them realize that they would be replacing the occupation with an even more ruthless governmental system, but at least it would be theirs, and thus less frightening than the planned 'puppet government'.

This whole thing is a mess, and as more videos and images from American run prisons make their way into the public eye, it is only going to get worse. And why is that? Someone commented on the 'dehumanizing process' in war. Well, IMHO, the US has dehumanized muslims for over a decade, and this attitudinal bias shows in everything they do. You cannot win the hearts of a people while holding them in contempt. It shows.

0ok

preceding that quote

2.190

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

then it goes on

2.191

And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.


ie if they fight with you and opress your faith you fight right back - but do not be bastards about it be reasonable do no not go overboard - but if they fight to the death then so do you - and if you do have to fight for your religion and freedom then you will be rewarded for it as it will be a noble death.

Max Reax

My sentiments exactly.

Yodas Ugly Brother

very cute!

Whadda you guys say about electing good old Baghdad Bob for President of Iraq? At least the terrorists won't get any accurate press if we prop him up.
Bahgdad Bob: " Today ve finds all doze WMDs sitting around in de dezert. This veek, dere are no more terrorists in Iraq. Americans are spreading joy everyvere in de streets..." Ah, one can always dream.

koniver

Do you really believe we are in Iraq because of WMD's?

We are in Iraq because of 9/11. Iraq's UN violations were the excuse to put our military in theater to dismantle the global terrorist structure that would make possible future terrorist acts on US soil and US interests. That's what happened but the US government couldn't tell the truth because the world was not going to approve.

I really don't care if the world doesn't like it. For the most part they have demonstrated that they do not have the backbone to take on thugs. Most Americans do not want to sit back and get hit again. That is why the majority support this administration and this military action.

rock biter

>/nuke 'em

and what, pray tell, does your other brain cell think we should do?

Saddam's support of militant Palestinian groups isn't about them being Islamic. It is about them being Arabic.

Ah, thats why he showed such financial concern for the average 'repressed' Arab. Oh wait, only the suicide bombers?

itsfiveoclocksomewhere

My point was that the administration didn't come up with the evidence themselves, it came from other agencies (CIA), and even other countries.

Canada, France, the United Nations, the United Kingdom, Germany, Spain, Australia, Japan all believed Iraq had WMD PRIOR TO POWELL'S 2003 PRESENTATION.

The UN recognized that Iraq was engaged in illicit activity and was not disarming by passing 18 resolutions demanding that Iraq did so.

"I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

"The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998



Please take the blinders off and stop pretending like Bush came up with the idea

Yoda's Ugly Brother

She's going to sue you for that when she turns 18.

Yodas Ugly Brother:- Are you absolutely positively sure that baby isn't a Muslim?

Zed: He was there to make a buck, but he shouldn't have been killed. Also, there should be no civilians in a war zone. The use of "contractors" is a way to speed money to those who employ them. Halliburton, for example.

Muta

I really don't like calling people names, but for you I'll make an exception...You dumbass. Bush didn't lie about WMD. If he did, then so to did John Kerry, Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy and half of Europe. Bush has a governing plan for Iraq, but somebody like you obviously aren't aware that these things don't happen overnight. And it's American policy...you don't negotiate with terrorists. Did I mention that you're a dumbass?

Max Reax,

Can you really not deal with evidence that there may be some Muslim good guys?

That would require a world view with a grey scale as opposed to just black & white.

nero_design

When did the Iraqi Information Minister pick up a German accent?

420SNIPER

religion of peace indeed.

I take it you've never looked at the Old Testament. If you want to dig at religions for being "violent" then I suggest you take a look at all of them, even atheism.

What about Daniel Perl then? What that Bush's fault as well?

Perl was in Pakistan (who are on our side BTW). I don't think there was much deception on the part of the administration regarding our efforts in Afghanistan (which put Perl in Pakistan in the first place).

I fail to see the connection.

d23

BINGO! What do I win today?

/obvious

It's time to get these "clerics" to either tell their people it's time to get with the program, or they don't get to be a cleric anymore. Oh, and turn their Mosque into a sandbox.

...always good to hear voices of reason and humanity.

This is a perfect example. Bush said something along the lines of ...this is not the America I know...the America I know is consists of laws and decency and [etc, etc...]"

But the aforementioned gentleman's (or lady's) comment is a great representation of the "America" Bush really "knows". Get with the program, OUR program, or we'll burn your places of worship to the ground. We will torture your family members and laugh at you when you complain. We will group you all together as "evil-doers", as barbarians, as less-than-human.