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(Daily Mail)   Russian plane crash that killed 92 Russian solders over Christmas was caused by Russian pilot who couldn't tell his ailerons from his undercarriage   (dailymail.co.uk ) divider line
    More: Followup, EST, Stewart, Moscow, MailOnline  
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7190 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Jan 2017 at 9:17 AM (7 days ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



79 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2017-01-10 08:15:05 AM  
Pulling the flaps up when slow and over loaded would not be good.
 
2017-01-10 08:27:36 AM  

knbber2: Pulling the flaps up when slow and over loaded would not be good.


Especially right after takeoff, just past V2 where they probably didn't have a whole lot of speed they could afford to lose.  Seems like an almost impossible fark up for a seasoned pilot but I guess these things do happen sometimes.
 
2017-01-10 08:28:41 AM  
Meant to say not much speed OR altitude to lose.  You can sort of trade one for the other but at that moment they probably had barely enough of either.
 
2017-01-10 08:40:07 AM  
It's spelled aileron, dumbassmitter.
 
2017-01-10 09:20:18 AM  
"solders?"
 
2017-01-10 09:21:08 AM  
i.dailymail.co.uk
"I have never been so happy in all my life, da."
 
2017-01-10 09:21:51 AM  
In Soviet Russia, lever pulls you!
 
2017-01-10 09:23:16 AM  

nekom: knbber2: Pulling the flaps up when slow and over loaded would not be good.

Especially right after takeoff, just past V2 where they probably didn't have a whole lot of speed they could afford to lose.  Seems like an almost impossible fark up for a seasoned pilot but I guess these things do happen sometimes.


Vodak was probably involved.
 
2017-01-10 09:23:26 AM  
WRONGLEVER kronk....
 
2017-01-10 09:25:01 AM  
Let's see...Landing gear lever? No. Slats/Flaps lever? Nope. How's about this one, Crash Lever? Nailed it.
 
2017-01-10 09:25:35 AM  
img.fark.net
 
2017-01-10 09:26:05 AM  
And if they ever recover his body from the icy waters of the Black Sea, his hair is still gonna be perfect.
 
2017-01-10 09:28:53 AM  
img.fark.net
 
2017-01-10 09:30:08 AM  

nekom: Meant to say not much speed OR altitude to lose.  You can sort of trade one for the other but at that moment they probably had barely enough of either.


Especially with the gear hanging down and not retracted.
 
2017-01-10 09:32:47 AM  
johndalek:
Especially with the gear hanging down and not retracted.

Yep, that's even MORE drag.
 
2017-01-10 09:37:18 AM  
I had ailerons on my undercarriage once. My doctor prescribed an ointment for it.
 
2017-01-10 09:39:26 AM  
img.fark.net

Finally, flaps worked.
 
2017-01-10 09:42:22 AM  
Hey, cut the guy some slack. He was drunk at the time.
 
2017-01-10 09:43:26 AM  

tothekor: "solders?"


In Soviet Russia, iron solders YOU.
 
2017-01-10 09:45:35 AM  
Since I'm not an aircraft designer, I have a couple of questions about this.

1.  If one lever brings up the landing gear (good), and one applies the airbrakes (bad), why are they similar and right next to each other?
2.  If the plane was in some sort of a "takeoff configuration", and it must have been, how is it possible to pull a lever that would slow the plane down?  Why wouldn't that be disabled?
3.  Are we really going to blame the copilot for being tired?  I don't care how tired you are, when you're getting the plane in the air, you are paying attention.
4.  The plane was overloaded.  Is there any chance that THAT was the actual cause?  And perhaps some of the strangeness in the cockpit was the pilots trying to recover?
 
2017-01-10 09:45:52 AM  

robodog: nekom: knbber2: Pulling the flaps up when slow and over loaded would not be good.

Especially right after takeoff, just past V2 where they probably didn't have a whole lot of speed they could afford to lose.  Seems like an almost impossible fark up for a seasoned pilot but I guess these things do happen sometimes.

Vodak was probably involved.


This. And lots of it.
 
2017-01-10 09:49:15 AM  
img.fark.net

RIP

 
2017-01-10 09:53:32 AM  
Saw "AILERON", was expecting "AILEЯON", so you can see why he got confused.
 
2017-01-10 10:01:42 AM  
Not a pilot, but I thought the lever for retracting the wheels had little toy wheels on it
so it could not be mistaken for any other lever.

OK, I can see not having toy flaps on the flaps lever.

Wasn't there on one of those 'Seconds from Disaster' or somesuch shows
an episode where the  fly the plane lever and the crash the plane lever
were next to each other...years ago?
They did a redesign of the controls to fix that..
 
2017-01-10 10:02:00 AM  
....at the end, it was very sudden.
 
2017-01-10 10:03:05 AM  
Is that 92 ounces, pounds, tons of solder?

/Because, that is important.
 
2017-01-10 10:06:51 AM  
This is usual for airline crashes. It's never just one thing. It's several compounded by bad decisions.

Overloaded alone not a problem

Even with gear down and flaps the plane took off and was climbing. Simply pulling flaps shouldn't cause enough trouble to be unrecoverable.

It was panic and the failure of first thing they teach you to do, fly the plane. Don't stall and don't turn back on a failure. You never make it turning back.

They hit tail first, that means a stall not overloaded. If they made it off the ground they weren't too overloaded.
 
2017-01-10 10:11:46 AM  

jayessell: Not a pilot, but I thought the lever for retracting the wheels had little toy wheels on it
so it could not be mistaken for any other lever.

OK, I can see not having toy flaps on the flaps lever.

Wasn't there on one of those 'Seconds from Disaster' or somesuch shows
an episode where the  fly the plane lever and the crash the plane lever
were next to each other...years ago?
They did a redesign of the controls to fix that..


Tu-154 design is almost 50 years old. Not a particularly ergonomic cockpit design:

img.fark.net
 
2017-01-10 10:13:11 AM  

durbnpoisn: Since I'm not an aircraft designer, I have a couple of questions about this.

1.  If one lever brings up the landing gear (good), and one applies the airbrakes (bad), why are they similar and right next to each other?
2.  If the plane was in some sort of a "takeoff configuration", and it must have been, how is it possible to pull a lever that would slow the plane down?  Why wouldn't that be disabled?
3.  Are we really going to blame the copilot for being tired?  I don't care how tired you are, when you're getting the plane in the air, you are paying attention.
4.  The plane was overloaded.  Is there any chance that THAT was the actual cause?  And perhaps some of the strangeness in the cockpit was the pilots trying to recover?


Not everything in the cockpit is designed to eliminate pilot stupidity.
 
2017-01-10 10:16:01 AM  
"Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect." ~ Captain A. G. Lamplugh, British Aviation Insurance Group, London
 
2017-01-10 10:16:54 AM  
OK, I suppose nearly all the levers are potentially 'crash the plane' levers.
 
2017-01-10 10:20:29 AM  

LazyMedia: jayessell: Not a pilot, but I thought the lever for retracting the wheels had little toy wheels on it
so it could not be mistaken for any other lever.

OK, I can see not having toy flaps on the flaps lever.

Wasn't there on one of those 'Seconds from Disaster' or somesuch shows
an episode where the  fly the plane lever and the crash the plane lever
were next to each other...years ago?
They did a redesign of the controls to fix that..

Tu-154 design is almost 50 years old. Not a particularly ergonomic cockpit design:

[img.fark.net image 850x531]


Can any one point to the wheels and flaps levesr?
 
2017-01-10 10:23:32 AM  

AugieDoggyDaddy: LazyMedia: jayessell: Not a pilot, but I thought the lever for retracting the wheels had little toy wheels on it
so it could not be mistaken for any other lever.

OK, I can see not having toy flaps on the flaps lever.

Wasn't there on one of those 'Seconds from Disaster' or somesuch shows
an episode where the  fly the plane lever and the crash the plane lever
were next to each other...years ago?
They did a redesign of the controls to fix that..

Tu-154 design is almost 50 years old. Not a particularly ergonomic cockpit design:

[img.fark.net image 850x531]

Can any one point to the wheels and flaps levesr?


According to TFA they're on the ceiling. Not a pilot but if something is already funky (overloaded) maybe he pulled the lever without looking up while paying attention to something else?
 
2017-01-10 10:28:37 AM  
img.fark.net
 
2017-01-10 10:29:00 AM  

durbnpoisn: Since I'm not an aircraft designer, I have a couple of questions about this.

1.  If one lever brings up the landing gear (good), and one applies the airbrakes (bad), why are they similar and right next to each other?
2.  If the plane was in some sort of a "takeoff configuration", and it must have been, how is it possible to pull a lever that would slow the plane down?  Why wouldn't that be disabled?
3.  Are we really going to blame the copilot for being tired?  I don't care how tired you are, when you're getting the plane in the air, you are paying attention.
4.  The plane was overloaded.  Is there any chance that THAT was the actual cause?  And perhaps some of the strangeness in the cockpit was the pilots trying to recover?


These questiosn ahve been asked many times over many similar accidents. Finding new ways to crash airplanes is hard to do.
 
2017-01-10 10:30:12 AM  
Surprised Pooty hasn't claimed the US hacked the airplane and made it crash.  Below is a photo of the computer that could do the hacking.

img.fark.net
I have taken control of the Russian cargo plane, Mister President.  What are your orders?
 
2017-01-10 10:30:32 AM  
So in this image, directly above the centre window there is the flaps control.  TO the right, just left of the fan is a lever with the landing gear.  They are hardly "right next to each other."  I'd imagine it would take a lot of vodka to mix those up.
avtales.files.wordpress.com
I used this sim image to figure out what was what.
xplanereviews.com
 
2017-01-10 10:41:59 AM  

The_Fuzz: So in this image, directly above the centre window there is the flaps control.  TO the right, just left of the fan is a lever with the landing gear.  They are hardly "right next to each other."  I'd imagine it would take a lot of vodka to mix those up.
[avtales.files.wordpress.com image 850x573]
I used this sim image to figure out what was what.
[xplanereviews.com image 850x478]


That's hardly surprising since it was probably a bomb, not pilot error that brought the plane down, but Putin wouldn't want to give the terrorists the satisfaction of claiming credit.
 
2017-01-10 10:44:43 AM  
"The vodka burner is rolling."

 
2017-01-10 10:45:34 AM  
Landing Gear lever does have a wheel attached on the end so that it does NOT get mistaken as any other lever. The Flap lever usually has a lock on the handle that you'll have to pull up in order to select a new flap setting (at least on the newer planes) to prevent the pilot from moving past the desired setting. Also, in most planes, there are indications whether or not the aircraft is in a take-off configuration. Lights, bells and whistles screaming at you saying "Hey, idiot, your wheels are down and your flaps are up!"
 
2017-01-10 10:47:58 AM  

Smoking GNU: WRONGLEVER kronk....


Why does Izma even have that lever?
 
2017-01-10 10:48:35 AM  
 
2017-01-10 10:56:40 AM  

Harry Freakstorm: Surprised Pooty hasn't claimed the US hacked the airplane and made it crash.  Below is a photo of the computer that could do the hacking.

[img.fark.net image 597x383]
I have taken control of the Russian cargo plane, Mister President.  What are your orders?


As a career submariner I'm getting a kick......
 
2017-01-10 10:57:27 AM  

durbnpoisn: Since I'm not an aircraft designer, I have a couple of questions about this.

1.  If one lever brings up the landing gear (good), and one applies the airbrakes (bad), why are they similar and right next to each other?
2.  If the plane was in some sort of a "takeoff configuration", and it must have been, how is it possible to pull a lever that would slow the plane down?  Why wouldn't that be disabled?
3.  Are we really going to blame the copilot for being tired?  I don't care how tired you are, when you're getting the plane in the air, you are paying attention.
4.  The plane was overloaded.  Is there any chance that THAT was the actual cause?  And perhaps some of the strangeness in the cockpit was the pilots trying to recover?


You are confusing the terminology a bit. The focus is on premature flap retraction (not an euphemism).   Flaps are not "airbrakes".  The flaps are not directly related to slowing the aircraft down.  They generate more lift by changing the shape of the airfoil.  Yes they generate more lift, but also more drag, so they do slow the aircraft down, but that is not their intended purpose.  Flaps allow the aircraft to generate more lift at slower speeds.

It sound like the current theory is that the co-pilot retracted the flaps, instead of the landing gear.  That would indeed cause the aircraft to lose lift, but not slow it down.  It can be absolutely fatal if the aircraft is slow and heavy when you need maximum lift (and thrust).  It is normal to retract the landing gear quickly after takeoff as the landing gear is pure drag when off the runway.  You only retract flaps later when you are at a safer, higher airspeed.  If he indeed retracted the flaps (instead of the landing gear) too soon, it could indeed cause this crash.  Yes being overloaded would not help.  The two together could easily be fatal.

He did not pull a "lever to slow down" he perhaps pulled a lever that reduced lift.

The "lever to slow down", would be for spoilers/speed brakes, which are a separate device, usually on top of the wing, nor associated with the flaps.

Levers are often shaped like the surface they control. The end of the landing gear (wheels) lever is shaped like a wheel so it feels right. They are often in a similar location to actually ease workload.  You do not want flight surface controls all over the cockpit in willy nilly locations.  Many are done with the left hand.  But, yes you need to move the correct lever.
 
2017-01-10 11:04:41 AM  
 

LesserEvil: The_Fuzz: So in this image, directly above the centre window there is the flaps control.  TO the right, just left of the fan is a lever with the landing gear.  They are hardly "right next to each other."  I'd imagine it would take a lot of vodka to mix those up.
[avtales.files.wordpress.com image 850x573]
I used this sim image to figure out what was what.
[xplanereviews.com image 850x478]

That's hardly surprising since it was probably a bomb, not pilot error that brought the plane down, but Putin wouldn't want to give the terrorists the satisfaction of claiming credit.


Not having the same familiarity with the crash which happened just outside Sochi as you apparently do could you point us to the other indications that a bomb went off as opposed to a low speed stall due to the co-pilot reducing the wing surface instead of reducing air drag?
 
2017-01-10 11:10:08 AM  
The pilot:
www.comedycouch.com
 
2017-01-10 11:22:59 AM  
img.fark.net
 
2017-01-10 11:39:07 AM  

LesserEvil: The_Fuzz: So in this image, directly above the centre window there is the flaps control.  TO the right, just left of the fan is a lever with the landing gear.  They are hardly "right next to each other."  I'd imagine it would take a lot of vodka to mix those up.
[avtales.files.wordpress.com image 850x573]
I used this sim image to figure out what was what.
[xplanereviews.com image 850x478]

That's hardly surprising since it was probably a bomb, not pilot error that brought the plane down, but Putin wouldn't want to give the terrorists the satisfaction of claiming credit.


Oh, the terrorists and their omnipotent powers. Is there anything they can't do? Obviously, they have no problem planting bombs on a Russian military aircraft.
 
2017-01-10 11:44:17 AM  

Splinthar: LesserEvil: The_Fuzz: So in this image, directly above the centre window there is the flaps control.  TO the right, just left of the fan is a lever with the landing gear.  They are hardly "right next to each other."  I'd imagine it would take a lot of vodka to mix those up.
[avtales.files.wordpress.com image 850x573]
I used this sim image to figure out what was what.
[xplanereviews.com image 850x478]

That's hardly surprising since it was probably a bomb, not pilot error that brought the plane down, but Putin wouldn't want to give the terrorists the satisfaction of claiming credit.

Not having the same familiarity with the crash which happened just outside Sochi as you apparently do could you point us to the other indications that a bomb went off as opposed to a low speed stall due to the co-pilot reducing the wing surface instead of reducing air drag?


He can't divulge his intel. That's how the terrorists win.
 
2017-01-10 11:46:21 AM  

sandiego1989: You are confusing the terminology a bit. The focus is on premature flap retraction (not an euphemism).   Flaps are not "airbrakes".  The flaps are not directly related to slowing the aircraft down.  They generate more lift by changing the shape of the airfoil.  Yes they generate more lift, but also more drag, so they do slow the aircraft down, but that is not their intended purpose.  Flaps allow the aircraft to generate more lift at slower speeds.


This is partially correct, because it depends on configuration and aircraft model a bit, so this is not a dig at you.

Flaps do indeed increase lift at a given airspeed. The trick, however, is that they are designed with a dual purpose in mind. On takeoff they allow you to be wheels off, climbing at Vx, sooner than a takeoff without flaps would allow. You don't necessarily have a choice to use flaps, it depends on the aircraft type, weight, and surface. On soft (grass/gravel) fields you use flaps to get wheels off because of the extra drag of the runway surface. On a short field it's because you need to get off the runway before there's none left. Now some aircraft, especially at higher weights, require flaps to get off the runway even with a longer runway. At higher weights (or overloaded intentionally - such as during long distance ferrying) you use flaps just to get wheels up.

On landing, flaps allow for a steeper descent rate (descent angle) without a corresponding increase in airspeed. This means landings with flaps, and a high descent rate, have the plane landing at a much lower speed than if you didn't use flaps - if you could land at that speed at all much less stop before the end of the runway.

Leading edge slats  (manual or auto-deploy) also aid in a similar manner to flaps, but by preventing separation of the airflow from the airfoil.

Spoilers/Speed Brakes function in a similar manner, but this is somewhat of a muddier area. In many designs, they don't reduce the speed much at all. What they do (kind of like the name) is "spoil" the airflow over the wing reducing lift allow for descents without increasing airspeed or changing engine settings. Spoilers/Speed Brakes are different in that they can be deployed at much higher speeds than flaps. They are particularly useful when ATC decides to give you a "slam dunk crowbar" (a tight turning, quick descent maneuver) to approach, which I used to respond "unable" since I was in an unpressurized aircraft, because they were late (or felt they couldn't shoehorn you in earlier) giving you a descent.

There are some other variations. The Mitsubishi MU-2, as one example, uses flaps along with full length of the wing so it has no ailerons. That plane uses spoilers to reduce lift over a wing, to turn. Incidentally, it also had a high accident rate until the FAA required a type rating which they usually only require for planes over 12,500lbs MGTOW. This greatly reduced the accident rate in the MU-2.

Of course pilots are infinitely fallible, and all it takes is one bad decision to cause a butt load of trouble. In this case it's possible a heavily aft CG loaded aircraft possibly had an unrecoverable stall after flaps were inadvertently retracted. A plane loaded CG to the rear makes it harder to push the plane nose level / nose down to recover from a stall.
 
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