There are fine Christians, who hold the tenents of loving kindness to heart, who are good people, who live their beliefs, and to condemn their faith because of the actions of a few...well, you have only to look at the asshats who lump all Muslims in with the asshats who bombed the WTC.


The problem is, hubiestubert, that the Bible specifically instructs Christians to hate their fellow human beings who are not Christian, to despise homosexuals and women, and to throw away their powers of reason in favor of a childish fairy tale. The kind, loving Christians you speak of are the bad Christians who don't follow every word of the Bible, and who are therefore "sinful". People who are Christians and do good works are doing them in spite of their religion. The Bible itself is literally the most disgusting, intolerant, pornographic book ever composed by the hand of Man, and that is why I have a problem with Christianity in general.

I vote for a Fark Party at Feffers! I'll bring the beer and weed!

the founding fathers were all Christian...

No.

Well, Kerry and McCain both did it. No, they weren't leaders *yet* but I respect someone who spent years in the Hanoi Hilton and didn't use it as part of his political campaign more than I respect someone who, at 50, puts on a flight suit as a political stunt and then sends the real uniforms off to get blown apart in the desert with young soldiers inside of them.

a) As much as you may ridicule him for it, Bush did serve in the Air National Guard and flew jets. No, he did not go to Vietnam. Yes, he was most likely given the ANG slot so he wouldn't have to go to Vietnam. But you can't deny the fact that he did serve in some capacity. And the only time Bush mentioned his ANG service is when it is used against him in the form of a political attack.

b) McCain was a hero. Kerry did some heroic things. But you're insane if you think Kerry doesn't use his Vietnam experience for political gain. He has made a career out of using his military service for political gain.

c) Bill Clinton, an admitted draft-dodger, sent "the real uniforms off to get blown apart in the desert with young soldiers inside of them". Does Somalia ring a bell? Were you just as angry back when a Democrat sent our boys off to die?

w00t!! I don't know how we'll all fit in my apartment, but there's a hot tub!

GOD is an ATHIEST!

What Aren't YOU?

HOT TUB? HOT DAMN!

Schools are public- there should not be an oath that recognizes a god. Any god, of any type, whatsoever. Nor should it imply there is no god. It's really easy.

Of course, the idea of making CHILDREN recite a LOYALTY OATH by the GOVERNMENT is, to me, much worse. It wouldn't be has bad if the pledge weren't mandatory, but many schools do enforce it, despite the fact it has been ruled unconstitutional. Even after I showed my administrator the court decision years back, he still tried to suspend me for 'continually casuing a disruption'. (I simply sat silently during the pledge. I was told I didn't have to say it, but I must stand. WTF?) The principal blocked the suspension however, and allowed me to sit during the pledge. This was only 4 yrs ago.

Heh, sorry Cyclometh.

/removing ass from head

err- my last post should begin 'schools are publically funded'

I'll add this as well:

http://www.errantskeptics.org/Fifty_Five_Delegates.htm

I've tried a hundred times to <a href= my links, but teh html just won't take, sorry.

Religious indoctrination of ANY kind should be illegal when minors are involved.

Fark at Feffer's? And catering provided by the General?

/I'd hit it

c) Bill Clinton, an admitted draft-dodger, sent "the real uniforms off to get blown apart in the desert with young soldiers inside of them". Does Somalia ring a bell? Were you just as angry back when a Democrat sent our boys off to die?

George Bush I put us in Somalia, dumbass. Clinton got us out. Thank God for Bill Clinton.

/ Conservatives == Revisionist traitors.

Atheist, dear, atheist....

As for the problem with the pledge-- I agree that it shouldn't be recited in schools in the first place, "under God" or not. If it's just empty words, then it's a waste of time. If it actually means something, then it's a recitation of belief on the part of the students making it, which is not something that schools should be eliciting. If a kid plays a religious person in a play or sings a religious song, he/she is not professing beliefs which are presumed to be his/her own. Not so with the Pledge. Learning good manners is great, but oaths of allegience are not something we should be putting into the mouths of kids in school. If their parents want to teach them to do it at homes, that's their own business.

Ask a silly question...

Washingtonians,

Religion aside, and let me state again for the record I am not a Christian just so everyone knows, the fact that Jim McDermott went to Baghdad and sided with Saddam is inexcusable, ideologically or otherwise, and he would've been thrown out of office in South Carolina.

Go ahead, call me a redneck southerner, whatever. You claim you're 'smart' voters for having him. There's a big difference between being smart and being wise. We're all on the same team, a fact lost on some like Baghdad Jim there and the like who get so caught up in pursuing an ideology they lose sight that it could hurt rather than help the country.

Democrats, you used to have JFKennedy, FDRoosevelt, Harry Truman...all great men. You've let the flower-power hippies grow up and become your leaders, and look at what they've done to you. If you compare any of your current crop of democrats to your hall of fame listed above, they can't even hold a shadow to them. Could you see a Democrat in 1960 going to Havana and saying what Baghdad Jim said in Iraq? JFK, FDR, they'd be ashamed of what you've become as a party...you make them look like Republicans in comparison for gods sakes, and seeing as Bush insists on pursuing a somewhat liberal social agenda, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that if this were 1960, Bush might be a democrat.

There's a point at which you need to snap out of it and look at the big picture to make sure you're going where you need to go, and the left is clearly passing that point.

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!" -- John Adams

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." -- James Madison

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity." -- Ben Franklin

"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." -- The Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 (Under George Washington)

These are your founding fathers.

..it wouldn't be a stretch to say that if this were 1960, Bush might be a democrat.

Yes, it would.

I thought the Republicans wanted to go back to the 1950's? Maybe he's just helping them out?

utlaw2004:

First, take your head out of your ass. See how much easier it is to breathe? Now then...

a) Bush did use his military service as a campaign prop. The entire aircraft carrier stunt was one gigantic use of his days in the military. If you can't see that, you're obviously either retarded or so far in denial that it doesn't matter anyway.

b) Did I claim that Kerry didn't use his military service in his campaign? Show me where I said that, and I'll shave your balls with my teeth while wearing a red rubber jockstrap and Karl Rove's filthy skivvies on my head.

c) yep.

2004-04-28 01:38:02 PM AgonistAlex
On October 12, 1892, the quadricentennial of Columbus' arrival, more than 12 million children recited the Pledge of Allegiance, thus beginning a required school-day ritual.

OMFG!!! You mean it was teh rapist racist hegemon Colombus!?!?

LOL! Okay, Seattle people, if you're serious about a party, my email address is in my profile. At the very least, we can get together at a bar or something.

Sort of on-topic, these are some cool people: Atheist meetup. I always go to the Bellevue/Eastside one, but I know a lot of the people who go to the downtown Seattle one.

Watch It GoblinKing, or we might unleash our hip liberal Governor on your ass...



It would be nice to have a HOTTIE first lady too!

Why can't we just elect a Moslem congressman (Dearborn, Michigan, I'm looking at you) and let him lead the pledge, replacing the word "God" with "Allah"?
Imagine the shiatstorm from the holy rollers after that happens.
Hell, most of 'em would probably go bonkers if it were recited in a direct Spanish translation by a Latino congressman.

Poorly worded headline. Specifically with regard to "contingency".

Almost funny.

regardless "pledging allegiance" to a country before classes at school is creeeeeeeepy.

2004-04-28 07:49:54 PM HazMatt

That would be awesome.

Democrats, you used to have JFKennedy, FDRoosevelt, Harry Truman...all great men. You've let the flower-power hippies grow up and become your leaders, and look at what they've done to you. If you compare any of your current crop of democrats to your hall of fame listed above, they can't even hold a shadow to them. Could you see a Democrat in 1960 going to Havana and saying what Baghdad Jim said in Iraq? JFK, FDR, they'd be ashamed of what you've become as a party...you make them look like Republicans in comparison for gods sakes, and seeing as Bush insists on pursuing a somewhat liberal social agenda, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that if this were 1960, Bush might be a democrat.


HAHAHAHAHAAA... A Social Conservative/Fiscally Liberal politician is a democrat? Brother, you ain't wise or smart.

Look at what your own party is becoming before you point out the shortcomings in others.

George Washington:

"The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations." George Washington's letter of August 20, 1778 to Brig. General Thomas Nelson

"Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prorate myself before Thee." George Washington's prayer at Valley Forge

"No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency...We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of heaven cannot be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which heaven itself has ordained." -- George Washington in his Inaugural Address, April 30, 1789

"Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being, who rules over the universe, who presides in the council of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States.." "...Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency" From President George Washington's Inaugural Address, April 30th, 1789, addressed to both Houses of Congress.

"Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion."--George Washington, ca. 1789, Maxims of Washington, ed. John F. Schroeder (Mt. Vernon: Mt. Vernon Ladies Association, 1942), p. 106.

"The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country." General George Washington, July 9, 1776

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports . . . And let us indulge with caution the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion . . . Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle." From President George Washington's Farewell Address

Man, I leave work, come home, and this thing is going to infinity. Geez.

Good for this guy. He is standing up for his beliefs. The first reaction I had when seeing this was 'hero'. But that is only because I think the pledge isn't, and references in our money and our 'pledge' should be removed. It pisses those of us who still believe in Zues and Athena off, as well as those who believe in nothing, or nothing that is of substance (ie, a 'god'). And zealot christians do realize they are a religious minority in this world right? They act like the own this place, or something.

Again, freedom of religion means freedom from religion.

It works both ways.

Someone said the majority were Deist, you should provide a source for that info.

No, I said many were Deist, and most of the really famous ones.

A bit on Jefferson.
A pretty thorough coverage of the question.
A partisan rant.
Some cool quotes

With popping fresh goodness for you lazy bastards who won't download Firefox.

/Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy.

sonnyboy11,

Are you at least going to try to justify that?

Bush and JFK both are/were:

In favor of tax cuts
Religious men
Very Strong on Defense, faced threats
Pursued a liberal social agenda
Both came across as charismatic everyday joes

Anyone else help me out here? I'm not saying they were twins, but they do have a lot of similarities.

My point being that while the country stayed put, the left has swung waaaaaay out to the left while the right slowly came to the middle. What once was left is now not so left, pretty close to the center...right where Bush is.

B.P.

Back then Slavery was cool, women had no rights, children died laboring...

All these thing have changed, so whats your point?

Well I gotta go, I'm off work. I'll be emailing you, feffer. Maybe if we get a corps of people together we can meet up and plan a fark party........

John Adams:


"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: 'It connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." President Adams, July 4, 1821

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were.... the general principles of Christianity." -- John Adams in letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 28, 1813

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams from his Oct. 13, 1789 address to the military.

"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there contained! Every member would be obliged in conscience to temperance, frugality and industry: to justice, kindness and charity towards his fellow men: and to piety, love and reverence toward Almighty God....What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." John Adams diary entry Feb. 22., 1756.

"The Christian religion is, above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the Blackguard Paine say what he will; it is Resignation to God, it is Goodness itself to man." John Adams retorting to Thomas Paine in his diary, July 26, 1796.

Bush and JFK both are/were:

Pursued a liberal social agenda

WHAT?!

WHO.
GIVES.
A.
SHIAT.
WHO.
GIVES.
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WHO.
GIVES.
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SHIAT.
WHO.
GIVES.
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SHIAT.
WHO.
GIVES.
A.
SHIAT.
WHO.
GIVES.
A.
SHIAT.
WHO.
GIVES.
A.
SHIAT.
WHO.
GIVES.
A.
SHIAT.
WHO.
GIVES.
A.
SHIAT.

General_Jack_D_Ripper

What's yours?

Secession NOW.

The Militant Athiests can go live in California.

It's never been about Atheism v. God, or the idea of God. It's Atheism v. Christians. Exclusively. I wonder why.

Like it or not, morality and therefore this country were founded on Godly principles. The phrases "under God" and "In God We Trust" are wholly appropriate for pledges to a "rag" and acknowledgements on our money. Acknowledgement of a God is a realization that there are higher moral ideals that you aspire to. Normally, the idea of God (Supreme Being, Chi, Ooga Booga, or however an individual comes to terms with it) should inspire tolerance, cooperation, and fairness.

Unfortunately, several prominent believers, and therefore their misguided congregations have become vile judgemental a-holes, and have spent the better part of the last 200 years admonishing the average person for trying to have a little fun in a very stressful world. The current backlash against the pledge, ten commandments, etc is a result of that.

In any case, the vitriolic hatred vomited out of the brains of Atheists is about as tolerable as the faith-healing charades, and judgements spewed from fundamentalist preachers. A reasonable Atheist friend I discussed this with told me it was two sides of the same coin. The mindset of either person is indistinguishable, and inseperable from the other.

There is as much harm done when kids say "under God" as when they don't say anything during that part of the pledge.

This entire debate is ridiculous, and I hope the nuclear holocaust comes soon, because humanity is failing, and we are not fit to survive.

/Under God, with Liberty and Death for us all.

If anything, BP's quotes demonstrate how a person can be devoutly religious and yet not want to perpetuate that religion through the government. Amazing, huh? It's not just atheists who are into that whole separation of church and state thing...though you'd think that, listening to the more right-of-the-line crusaders.

2004-04-28 02:05:46 PM Cyclometh

...start the witch hunts back up. Blacklists, anyone? This guy didn't say the right words, he must be a terrorist sympathiser!

Might as well?? More like are, if you ask me.

What really bugs me is crap like this

Lord, with wisdom and power, direct the activities of this Congress.

Yeesh.

Well, I think Bush served his country honorably during the vietnam war, while Kerry did something or other and then THREW HIS MEDALS AWAY BOO HISSSSSSS.

/ heard it on FOX News

Out to enjoy this FABULOUS NW Weather (38 and raining heavily...or is that hail?)

ciao feffer, Rillion, Pinko et al.

Nice point Rillion. I'm not posting those to prove one thing or another, but I would wager the 'Founding Fathers' were spiritual and religious. What those beliefs were specifically, I can't say. It seems a lot of arguments these days are that the men had no religion at all and a few quotes will be thrown around supposedly proving this.

I think it's safe to say most, if not all but a few, were religious. Why that threatens atheists of today, I don't know.

Nice point Rillion. I'm not posting those to prove one thing or another, but I would wager the 'Founding Fathers' were spiritual and religious. What those beliefs were specifically, I can't say. It seems a lot of arguments these days are that the men had no religion at all and a few quotes will be thrown around supposedly proving this.

I think it's safe to say most, if not all but a few, were religious. Why that threatens atheists of today, I don't know.

Dunno who you're talking about - I know they were mostly religious. Many of them leaned toward either Deism or Unitarianism, though, which can't really be considered Christian. It is, however, still highly religious and spiritual. And, yes, they mostly favored keeping religion separate from the State. As far as I know, Paine was the only one that could in any way be considered an atheist.

Paine was most definitely NOT an atheist. Ever read Common Sense? He said Christians and "Mohammedans" and atheists were all idiots. He was a Deist.

Actually, it's quite apparent that the whole agenda, having failed to have been pushed through by voted representatives, is now seeping in through the judicial branch.

And with that, I'm out. Y'all have fun and try to play nice...we are all on the same team.

Good night from beautiful South Carolina!

Dunno who you're talking about

Well, you can be sure I wasn't talking about you then, right? Or are you the spokesperson for the rest of the Internet?