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(ABC News)   California to dispense morning after abortion pills without prescription   (abcnews.go.com ) divider line
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2069 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Dec 2001 at 12:26 AM (14 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2001-12-29 03:29:30 PM  
"what about people who are in temporary coma?"
they still have brian activity, they still do know what is going on around them. they just cannot react to it.
 
2001-12-29 03:30:18 PM  
www.webster.com:

Main Entry: 1clone
Pronunciation: 'klOn
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek klOn twig, slip; akin to Greek klan to break -- more at CLAST
Date: 1903
1 a : the aggregate of the asexually produced progeny of an individual; also : a group of replicas of all or part of a macromolecule (as DNA or an antibody) b : an individual grown from a single somatic cell of its parent and genetically identical to it


A proper clone, by definition, has the same genes as the parent. According to you, they would not have rights, because they do not have unique DNA. (In essence, according to you, they would be no better off than my "skin flakes.")
 
2001-12-29 03:33:17 PM  
how can you tell whether the child will have a crappy life or not? who are you to decide? There have been many kids from crappy backgrounds who have gone on to do great things and live normal lives. A large amount of these children do not try to commit suicide and there's no way that is true. Using birth control isn't akin to abortion, but it's not fool proof and should it fail what then? Time to own up to the consequences right? I mean it sounds jerky to say it but that's the way it is.
 
2001-12-29 03:36:27 PM  
Alright! Everyone get to work with the unsafe unprotected sex sessions! Woo hoo!

-he who stacks pork
 
2001-12-29 03:38:38 PM  
Scofield99
how can you tell whether the child will have a crappy life or not? who are you to decide?

That's the whole point. It's not up to me to decide, nor is it up to you to decide, nor society as a whole.

The freedom for a woman to choose is the point.
It is nobody's business but her own, and possibly the father, but overall her own.

Having the option to choose the morning after pill should be a part of that freedom.
 
2001-12-29 03:42:09 PM  
"how can you tell whether the child will have a crappy life or not? "
I can't tell if someone elses child will have a crappy life but the mother can. she knows if she is capable enough to care for a child. so who are you to tell someone thay have to give birth to a child? who are you to let that child live in a home where it will not be loved as it should? if I had a child right now, I know how I am I would end up resenting it for comming too soon. I wouyld resent it for comming when I wasn't ready. especially since I'm so careful not to get pregnant. will you take the child if I don't want it?
 
2001-12-29 03:46:36 PM  
I am now going to work, I'll see you all later.
 
2001-12-29 03:47:05 PM  
The only problem with this pill is that I won't be able to see the look on my poor son's barely-formed face when he goes away. Bah, I never liked Father's Day anyway.
 
2001-12-29 03:51:34 PM  
Well the concept of freedom has it's limit when the women's freedom to choose will impact whether a child lives or not. No one should be allowed to kill an unborn child because it came along at the wrong time.
It is a choice, you are right, the woman and the man had the choice to have sex. For whatever reason or technological inovation, they thought they could escape the GLARING reality that sex leads to babies. So when a baby comes along? What? Because it's [insert excuse here, incovenient, didn't come at the right time] then it is ok just to trash the baby. Oops. oh well. these things happen i guess.
So because a child isn't going to grow up in a loving, wonderful environment it shouldn't be born? And if she decides to have it, there are many wonderful people in this country who are unable to have children and adoption is growing in this country and should be promoted by all.
 
2001-12-29 03:55:39 PM  
Daz -

Frankly? i define life the way I know it. Which is basically from when I remember it first. But that's silly. So I define life the scientific way:

If I don't hasve a pulse, I'm dead. If I don't have brain activity, I'm clinically dead.

Am I alive because I have DNA? no more than my dead grandfather is.

And I used the flippant jerking off remark to point out how simple it could be to define life any way you feel like it. Only thing is, my definition of it doesn't get to make moral insinuations about other people.


Scofield: I'd really, REALLY like you to address the rape question, instead of this repeated, stale "everyone's irresponsible" claptrap.
 
2001-12-29 03:56:03 PM  
It's called reality. Welcome to the real world, sunshine.
 
2001-12-29 03:58:17 PM  
Scofield, do you have a clue?

Do you know anyone who's had an abortion? were they that flippant? hell no. But it's the only way your point stands up.

But really, there's no point in arguing with someone who actually, truly thinks that humans only need to have sex in order to procreate.
 
2001-12-29 04:09:51 PM  
Well obviously for all my talk about the choice of having sex, in rape a woman doesn't have the choice. The baby would be forced upon. It would not be her fault she's pregnant, because she doesn't want to pregrant.
However she is carrying a life now, a women's body is sacred, my arguements aren't trying to disprove that all, because women are unique, they carry and bring forth life. With this responsibility then, the woman should bring the child to term and if she can't raise him then check with an adoption agency, after all the most "wanted" type of children parents want are usually newborns.
Just because the child was concieved in a rape doesn't mean it has less of right to live. However in this case if abortion was illegal and she was found to have aborted the child, I don't think you would find the majority of people clamoring for her or her doctor to be locked up. I believe this is one of those situations where people understand because it is such a traumatic situation. the only situation which should be spelled out legally is if the woman's life is in danger. In sum, a child concieved in rape should be brought to term, it is the responsibility of the mother to do so, but as it is such a traumatic situation people will understand.
 
2001-12-29 04:10:40 PM  
I didn't read the entire thread because I R A Suk, but just in case it hasn't been mentioned yet:

Morning After Pill = Birth Contol Pill x 10

Their effects are completely identical. While the majority of morning after pill opponents are just morally blinded idiots that think it's an abortion pill, I do understand that a lot of them take issue with it because it prevents implantation. Guess what, kiddies, so does the birth control pill.

Look, both series of pills do three things:
1. Suppress ovulation
2. Toughen the outer membrane of the egg to make it difficult for sperm to penetrate
3. Alter the lining of the uterus to make it difficult for a fertilized egg to implant

All three are natural effects that often occur regularly without the use of birth control. The only difference is in concentration: the morning after pill does in 72 hours what the birth control pill does over a much longer period of time. It's stronger, works faster, and has some irritating side effects, but in essence does the exact same thing.

So if we're going to call the morning after pill an "abortion pill" because it prevents implantation, then we'd also better be ready to call the birth control pill (and the large majority of other birth control methods) the same thing.

And yes, it sounds silly coming from me, since I'm male. However, being a young sexually active male, it kind of pays for me to know these things. All it takes is a little reading. (hell, all of this is printed in the booklets that come with the birth control pill.)

That's all. Carry on with the meaningless debate about personal morality. =)
 
2001-12-29 04:16:10 PM  
kerouac: no, but where they are flippant is in the choice in the first place to have sex without thinking of the consequences or thinking they could get around them and flippant is the common attitude towards sex and moral choices.
Of course we got babies in test tubes in things, but I don't really support that stuff. I think if a couple can't have a child then they should adopt, I don't like this designer baby stuff. I mean I understand with in vitro and test tubes why people would want to do that, and I'm kinda ok with it, but the "slippery slope" arguement to a brave new world kinda thing is what concerns me. you wacky beat poet you.
 
2001-12-29 04:17:44 PM  
A couple of points:

Being Pro-Choice does not mean one is Pro-Abortion. How silly. Those of us who support a woman's right to choose aren't fans of abortion. It's a brutal experience. If it were up to us, we'd love to see a world where abortion IS NOT NECESSARY. You know, no more rapes, incest, child sexual assault. No more birth control failures. No more lack of birth control or lack of reproductive education.(I've met adult women who had no idea about the mechanics of fertilization.)I would love to see an end to profound birth defects detected in utero that result in abortion. Or cases where the mother's life is in mortal danger if the pregnancy is allowed to persist forcing that mother to make one of the most heart wrenching decisions possible, choosing her own life over the life of the baby she carries. I would love to see birth control no longer considered a mortal sin by (insert anti-birth control organization/government/culture/religion here). I would love to live in that perfect world.

But guess what, boys and girls. This ain't a perfect world. Don't like abortion? Then instead of whining and crying about how awful it is, and how it's killing babies, and how the women are just irresponsible whores (hey, doesn't it take two to make a baby? This isn't a solo act, you know). DO SOMETHING TO END THE NEED FOR ABORTION. Sheesh. Easy to stand on a sidewalk, waving a sign and screaming obscenities. What's hard is working toward a solution.

Secondly, lets get one thing straight. THe "morning after" pill is simply a high dose of the birth control pill, and prevents implantation of a fertilized egg. And it's not dangerous. Might make you feel kind of pukey, but it's not going to kill you. So yes, technically, it does induce abortion. BUT, allow me to point out that a considerable percentage (some studies say 30%, some say up to 50%) of fertilized eggs fail to implant in the uterus, rejected by the body, for a variety of reasons. Kind of like the body's version of self regulation, getting rid of any zygote that doesn't pass the genetic "smell test". And its not just used by sexually irresponsible women.

And for all you pro-lifers out there (please note that this pro-choicer did not stoop to calling you anti-choice, or anti-abortion, or whatever other perjorative that comes to mind)I have another question. Many of you support abortion in cases of rape. If fetal life is so frigging important to you, why make that exception? What is different between a baby made during consensual sex, and a baby made during a rape? Hypocritical, if you ask me.

(Note: don't misunderstand me. I would never, ever EVER force a woman who has been raped to continue a pregnancy that resulted from the assault. Just making a point).

What is so sad is that BOTH sides are so enamored of their righteousness that they refuse to listen to what the opposition has to say. Everyone is so damned sure that they're right, they refuse to hear anything but their own frantic, emotional rhetoric. Sheesh.

Ok, I'm done with my little rant. Back to work.
 
2001-12-29 04:20:26 PM  
I had a feeling you'd say that, Scofield.

I'd give you credit for being consistent - in the same way Ted Bundy was consistent.

Life is NOT an episode of "Touched by an Angel". Pregnancy does not good stuff to you - imagine one from a rape? carried to term so some moron lawmaker feels moral?

Asinine. You assume that there's a happy life waiting for every kid. Inner cities beg to differ.

This, by the way, is coming from someone whose niece was an accident, and nearly aborted. I love her to death, but I would have understood then.
 
2001-12-29 04:24:59 PM  
Scofield, your last statement clearly illustrates something. There are people in this world who obstinately refuse to believe the world is not going to hell in a handbasket.

Do the math. It avoids bringing kids into poverty. It also avoids that whole rape issue. And it avoids the question of killing a baby who's at 6 weeks or whatever.

This pill is a good stopgap for all of those issues; issues which are greatly affecting society right now. It takes a special kind of zealot to think that that's a BAD thing.
 
2001-12-29 04:26:21 PM  
Flippant? I'm not sure how old you are, but those wacky kids today are more conscious of the effects of sex than any generation has ever been.
 
2001-12-29 04:29:27 PM  
Kerouac I give you credit for still not being too clear. You said something about the inner cities...so what? the kids grow up in a crappy place in a crappy family? Because that's not the best environment for a kid to be in it's ok to say hey! why even try life? it's gonna suxor for you (who decides that by the way?)...again, how many kids came from crappy lives in crappy environments and had great lives, made something of themselves?
For fark sake, my new little brother was an accident, my parents didn't want a baby at 46, they were starting to make retirement plans. It was inconvenient, they had him, drastically changing their plans, and I or they could not imagine life without him now.
 
2001-12-29 04:38:31 PM  
What's more heartless, a woman making a choice over her own body, that involves something that could potentially affect her for 9 months, and potentially be fatal (as was in my case), or a *man* (or another woman) making the choice for her, who A: either isn't even a part of it, not even the conception, and won't have any part of it after the child is born except another notch on his cradle post, and B: won't have to deal with nine months of garbage.
I was farking romanced by the idea of having a kid. I worked in the JC Penny's Children's Department, organizing little clothes and assembling strollers any time someone purchased one who needed it right then.
A lot of people say that having a kid is such a great experience. I'm one of those minorities to whom that statistic does not parallel. It was not good. It almost killed me.

Fact= Having the water break happens in only 15% of all pregnancies, but all the tv's and movies signify labor with the water breaking.
Fact= RU486 is proven to be more safe than childbirth itself. Out of all the tests they did. At least 50,000 women I believe was the number, they had *one* fatality and three bad reactions. Why? Because there are three conditions under which a person (woman) should *not* take Mipefestrone....they involve heart conditions and lung conditions or something like that. Smoking and whatnot. The woman who died had all three and neglected to take that into account. The three who had bad reactions, had at least one symptom.
That is a far better statistic than the numbers for childbirth. I for one would rather hear of a successful abortion, than another abandoned kid at a prom, or in the garbage, or in a bush. That kills me every time I read about it.

Oh yes, and there's one guy...this special soul, who's pro-life. But in his mind, abortion teaches kids that their lives are valueless. To back up his idea he shares a story of a father and uncle or friend who take his two daughters out on a very hot day and leave them in the car, with the windows rolled up while they went "looking for arrowheads" in the desert. The two girls died, one of them had chunks of her hair pulled out because it was so hot and she was so freaked out.
But this is a reason *not* to have abortions, because *abortions* are tearing down the value of life? Come on man, there are just some people who shouldn't be allowed to have kids and FOR THAT REASON. How many more kids have to die of abuse, or malnutrition, or neglect because their parents are selfish, retarded, or a combination of both...because you pro-lifers would rather they had the kid?
You talk about how unfair it is for people to not give those kids a chance, what the hell kind of chance is that to come into a life like that, only to leave it rather violently?

Anyway, that's just another point of my pro-choiceness, and I agree, my being pro-choice isn't about abortion, it is about having the choice. Whether or not the choice is made is not anyone's business to be justified. Thank you.
 
2001-12-29 04:54:50 PM  
So what?

So I have a clearer view of what ails this world than you do bbecause you have a shiny new brother, I guess.

To be clear - it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS what goes on in the inner cities - and you have absolutely no right to dictate to people faced with unwanted pregancies what they should do about it.

Is that clear enough?
 
2001-12-29 04:56:37 PM  
Well said, Permafrost.
 
2001-12-29 05:01:04 PM  
sure i do, because that unwanted pregnancy is a human being, and as a society we believe in life and liberty. we must protect life and value it, i can not see why one would want to live in a society where it is not valued.
What do you mean I have no business? I just turn a blind eye to problems of the world and be a heartless bastard? YOu think you have a better view of the world? Fine, go up to your neat little niece, tell her you would understand if she was aborted and wasn't hear and experiencing life, how the heck would that make her feel? Farked up priorities man.
.......ah fark. such stress relief from the dreary work day.
 
2001-12-29 05:09:33 PM  
Wow, look at all the ignorance about how morning after pills work. A morning after pill insures that a fertilized egg cannot become adhesed to the walls of the uterus. If the fertilzed egg cannot do that then it can not even form into an foetus. This actually happens naturally quite a lot, many times fertilized eggs just for some reason that is not 100% understood do not adhese to the walls of the uterus, and they are flushed uot of the body with the mentral cycle. Some doctors have theorised that certain foods actually decrease the odds of a fertilized egg adhesing to the uteran walls. If this is true then if a woman were to be eating some of these foods, and then have sex... is she committing involuntary murder?

Herbalists have known about morning after pills for some time. Many of our ancestors knew that if a woman ate (and I may be incorrect about this) black cohosh after sex it would reduce the odds of her getting pregnant. Were these women committing murder?

No they weren't they were simply preventing a bodily process, either knowingly or unknowingly. All the morning after pill does is prevent a bodily process that leads to pregnancy. Much like taking many different types of birth control pills that do the same exact thing. The title "abortion pill" is just a bunch of propoganda.
 
2001-12-29 05:11:04 PM  
*whispers*If someone doesnt want a baby, they could always give it to a local Church of Scientology. They'd be glad to have it... *yells* FOR DINNER!!!
 
2001-12-29 05:12:12 PM  
oops! said the loud part quiet and the quiet part loud.
 
daz
2001-12-29 05:15:25 PM  
There's a little too much to respond to in one post, so I'll just gloss over some of the subjects:

- A clone isn't a new person

My definition of a human is very encompassing. I do not try to define what EXACTLY a human is, other than an embryo in any state is a new human which has rights. My DNA comment was to try to convince the its-not-a-human-unless-its-born crowd that their thinking is wrong. I believe that any embryo is a human and that every living human is, of course, a human and should be afforded basic human rights. I don't attempt to descriminate on people because of their birth status.

- forcing a woman to make a choice over her body
The woman had a choice. She chose to have sex knowing the consequences. There is no 100% birth control, so she knows that if she has sex, there's a chance she'll get pregnant. People make bad choices and must live with the consequences, why is this bad choice given a get-out-of-responsibility-free card?

I feel this is unfair to men, because men don't have the choice of abortion. Why are women allowed to get out of their responsibility, but not men? The more I think about abortion and "a woman's right to choose [murder]" it just seems more and more illogical.

- birth control pills are contraception, is she having an abortion every month?

First, we were talking about the morning-after-pill and/or RU486 which is an abortaficient.

Birth control pill can, also, be an abortaficient, but it's not as likely. I personally dislike the birth control pill and I think there are better, more holistic, and more reliable methods for birth control, but I don't oppose the BCP as much as I opposed RU486 and the morning-after-pill.

Please stop trying to blur the difference, as it's obvious.

- As far as the people talking about how we have no business in someone else's womb, I compare this to the slavery days and a man's farm. No one had rights to tell a man what he could and couldn't do on his farm either.

How 'bout in Africa where some countries still have slavery. Do we have a right to tell that country what they can and can't do with their people? What about China and all their human rights issues?

I say yes, we do have a right. We, as members of the human race, have a vested interest to see that all humans are afforded all the basic rights they deserve. When a woman is carrying a child, she's carrying another seperate individual. It's not her choice anymore. She made her choice, and now she has the responsibility.
 
2001-12-29 05:19:12 PM  
Permafrost, agree for the most part but...

in summary: sure some people are unfit to have kids, but you can't pass some kind of eugenics law saying who can and can't have kids.
Sex is the choice in pro-choice, if one engages in it and is pregnant as a result, choice goes out the window. they are carrying a life and that life has a right to be born. it is simply a matter of accepting responsibility for your actions. Again, sure someone may be born into a crappy environment and there are all sort of horrible stories and wonderful stories in the lives of various children. But that is life isn't it? You don't know what's going to happen to yourself tomorrow, so how can you be so sure that they're life is going to be so crappy? Maybe Einstein was born into poverty, but did his parents know he would be the genius he was? How many future senators, fireman, reasearchers searching for a cure to cancer have never been allowed to experience life because someone thought they knew better. It is a scary thought that someone can decide your life is not worth living before you even get a chance.

now back to work, i've only an hour left and then off to vegas for new years.
 
2001-12-29 05:55:04 PM  
Daz We do not have a right to decide what happens to another person's body. PERIOD. Because if we did then it would be possible for us to do things like force people who are young and strong to donate their organs to somebody who is better than they are. Because really wouldn't those valuable organs be better used in somebody like the president or a senator or a really rich person who could keep giving to the economy. A person has the right to choose what happens to their body, if you take away that choice, then you will open the door to the removing of other choices that people can make with their body. And you give that choice the government or other people in power, and do you want some beuracratic bean counter to decide when the plug is pulled on you if you are on life support?

You may say that this comparing apples and oranges but it really is not. History is full of examples of one thing that seemed harmless leading into something that was brutal and and evil. For instance you mentioned slavery. In England in the 1500s slavery was illegal, so how is it that it became legal and an approved of practice in the British colonies of America? Because England made it legal for the colonies to keep "indentured servants" for a time. And then they decided that if a child was born to an indentured servant it would become the property of the servant's owner till it reached an age of majority. But then even that was changed to allow for any man of color to be kept indefinitely as property... you see one thing led to another and led to another and led to another. you are suggesting that a person has no right to choose what is done to their body... now think about the implications of that a little more before you go shooting your mouth off again.
 
2001-12-29 05:56:03 PM  
Daz, that's nuts. You're assuming everybody can be a fit parent. They can't. I know I'm not. Never will be.

Besides that, I'd much rather a woman have an abortion and stay in college and wait until she's married. Getting married because she's pregnant is stupid. Never lasts, then the kid is treated like an object as the parents fight over it.

If you think she should have the kid, YOU pay the welfare and leave me out of it.
 
2001-12-29 06:12:46 PM  
A woman is raped and is now pregnant . Doc tells her it's gonna be a retard nd basically cost half her income to survive . Gee , abortion isn't good in any case . Ok so spend the rest of your life with a bastard rape child , in poverty none the less , and give the drooling kid a name like muffy or korky , what a well thought chioce . Abortion is and SHOULD be a choice for every woman . Period , no pun intended .
 
2001-12-29 06:26:23 PM  
retarded kids could never lead happy lives. yep we should just kill 'em before hand, and the ones lucky enough to get out of the womb, well kill 'em too. And then we can start forming lines and some wise and honorable person can declare who can (alphas) and can't have kids (betas). Boy I can't wait till someone comes along that wise enough to look into the future and decree who is and isn't going to have a good life.

...oh wait there are plenty of those wise people here on the board. have a good new years folks, and don't forget: kill 'em all, their lives are gonna suxor anyhow.
 
2001-12-29 06:35:20 PM  
California is so farked. This just further proves the point.
 
2001-12-29 06:36:19 PM  
...ack i'm only bitter because i have to work OT for another hour. soon as i get my beer i really don't care to talk about all this (mostly because i've been talking about it all day at work with y'all). truly have a happy new year.
 
2001-12-29 06:45:31 PM  
In regards to the whole "sperm is living,so I am killing sperm when I masturbate,what about that?!" argument,a lot of sperm dies before reaching the egg,and of the sperm that make it,only one is usually selected.So masturbating and ejaculating is not necessarily killing a living thing for no reason,since most die anyway when used for their intended purpose.
 
2001-12-29 06:57:43 PM  
Additionally,someone who is against abortion and pro-capital punishment(like I am) is not necessarily a hypocrite.When you're born,you basically have a sacred neutrality about yourself.You haven't shown yourself to be capable of doing good or bad either way,and you're physically incapable anyhow.However,let 30 years pass.You end up killing a bunch of people in a horrific manner,for whatever reason,and are sentenced to death.You've had 30 years,and you have blown your chance to continue living and proven yourself to be a danger to society by doing a very bad thing.You're physically and mentally capable at that age to do bad,and if you do something like mass murder,you should die.
 
2001-12-29 07:06:13 PM  
Also,if so many people weren't so damned promiscuous and idiotic(screwing someone in the bushes they just met 30 minutes ago at a frat kegger,and not using any birth control to reduce(not eliminate) chances of disease and pregnancy,for instance),we wouldn't have so many problems with AIDS,herpes or other STD's.But so many people would rather freely fark around,and not deal with consequences,that they are willing to accept the potential of having to go through a horrid procedure like abortion than just wrapping up,taking a pill,or masturbating.
 
2001-12-29 07:10:10 PM  
Here is the crux of the issue though.

How many people out there feel that abortions should be criminalized? How many of you feel that doctors who do abortions and the mothers who allow them to be performed on them should go to jail?

Lets go ahead and have a show of hands shall we?
 
2001-12-29 07:16:52 PM  
I could have sworn we covered all of this last night.
 
daz
2001-12-29 07:58:05 PM  
Dustin_00 so misguidedly said:
Daz, that's nuts. You're assuming everybody can be a fit parent. They can't. I know I'm not. Never will be.

Besides that, I'd much rather a woman have an abortion and stay in college and wait until she's married. Getting married because she's pregnant is stupid. Never lasts, then the kid is treated like an object as the parents fight over it.

If you think she should have the kid, YOU pay the welfare and leave me out of it.


Dustin, listen to yourself. Obviously you've never had a child, or spent much time in the care of one. Retarded or not, they are beautiful creatures. It pains me to think that they are mistreated, but it pains me more to think that we're just snuffing them out without giving them any chance. People who grew up with mental disabilities sometimes grow to be beautiful people with wondeful personalities who bring much joy to people.

As for a rape child, it's truly a horrible thought, but we can play what-ifs all day. Here's a what-if for you, what if by some chance of Fate, karma, God, Allah, or whatever, that rape was supposed to happen so that that baby would be born and it would be a world leader, or would be the person would cure cancer, or find the Unified Theory or something that would change mankind for the good forever?

Look at Stephen Hawking. According to most farkers here, he wouldn't have been born, let alone allowed to live so long.

I suggest you spend some time with a nephew or cousin or a little child and get to know them. You will realize how much joy they bring.
 
2001-12-29 08:05:29 PM  
Uhmm Daz... Stephen Hawking was not born expressing Parkinson's disease. Nobody even knew that he had it till he was in college. You might want to get your facts straight first.
 
2001-12-29 08:10:49 PM  
Of course, it could be argued that by allowing *everybody* to be born, we are doing evolution a disservice and letting the human race rot away to a stupid oblivion.
 
daz
2001-12-29 08:13:58 PM  
Code_Archeologist said:
Here is the crux of the issue though.

How many people out there feel that abortions should be criminalized? How many of you feel that doctors who do abortions and the mothers who allow them to be performed on them should go to jail?

Lets go ahead and have a show of hands shall we?


Well, those are rather draconian means of dealing with this problem.

The simple solution is education. If people are made aware of how horrible abortions really are (crushing the skulls of the fetus and vacuuming out the brains while the baby is still alive with no anesthetic, or roto-zipping it until it's sausage, etc) they wouldn't think about doing that to another person.

If people are also made aware of other options (adoption, foster care, or rearing it yourself) and people are encouraged to stand up to this responsibility as it will make them a better person, the problem would be much less. Also, if we could do away with the stigma of adoption and prevent people from taking fertility drugs and having litters of children and instead adopting, we could do a lot better.

There are many other options besides abortion. The problem is, the public doesn't know this, and The Third Reich Planned Parenthood forces abortion down people's throat as the only option.
 
daz
2001-12-29 08:15:39 PM  
Code Archeologist:
(re: Stephen Hawking Parkinsons) I know that, thanks for the history lesson.

However, using the tactics described by my opponents, an amnio probably would've revealed his disease and they would've been advised to abort since the child would leave a difficult life and probably die early.
 
2001-12-29 08:22:07 PM  
I think Daz secretly hates her child, making it a manifestation of failure and regret that differs greatly from her fanfiction.

Daz, my AbortionCafe needs more human blood to pay this month's expenses. Could we post-abort your child? I'd get to continue paying my communist bosses for the wiccan made baby eating machine they provided me and you can get a whole new lease on life...

One free of paranoia, sadness, desperation and doubt...

One where when you're held, you feel warm...

Have to bolt, me and buddies are going to pick up some baby toes we saved then deep fry the little boogers...MMMMMMMMM

Smells like lingering trauma!!!
 
2001-12-29 08:32:02 PM  
Daz it is very naive to believe that you can educate people not to do something because it is a horrible thing to do. People everyday smoke and drink to excess eventhough they know full well that they are causing irreparable damage to their bodies that is shortening their life span. What makes you think that they are going to change just because it does something horrible to another person? The only means to keep people from doing something is by making it illegal and levying fines and jail terms on those who do it anyhow. And even then there cannot be a 100% elimination of the situation.

So if you want abortions to stop happening then you are going to HAVE to put people in jail for doing it, other wise its just talk and nothing will come of it. And the alternatives you speak of are all very well known by the general public, its just they are not realistic for the people involved. Realisticly you either have to be against abortion and want the people involved jailed, or you accept it. Me, I don't like the idea of it much, but I accept it, because the alternative is even more repugnant.
 
2001-12-29 08:34:25 PM  
I thought I had heard every argument possible, both for and against.

But "you shouldn't be able to regulate pregnancy because you don't know what they might grow up to be"?

That is by far the stupidest reason to perpetuate famine, poverty, disease, child abuse and oppression of women that I've ever heard.


Now, let's get something straight: if every baby that was unwanted, or improperly cared for, or abnused, were given up for adoption, you'd run out of accepting parents in a hurry.

And since we all know that that DOESN'T happen, be realistic and look at the life you're subjecting them too. And while you're at it, remember that we're not talking about abortion here. We're talking about a morning-after pill.
 
2001-12-29 09:31:57 PM  
Daz "If people are made aware of how horrible abortions really are (crushing the skulls of the fetus and vacuuming out the brains..."


Do you realize that 99.99% of abortions are NOT performed this way? Partial-birth abortions, the procedure you are referring to, are not, I repeat NOT, done except in extremely rare cases. In fact, it is illegal to have an abortion after the end of the second trimester, EXCEPT in a case wear child-birth would kill the mother. That's it. I think I'll say it again just so it sticks: a partial-birth abortion is an emergency procedure, usually done as soon as it is discovered that if the fetus were to go full-term, the mother would die. Read up on your laws (and facts) before making statements like that.

Now you have to ask yourself: Which is mroe important, the life of the mother or that of the fetus? It's either one or the other in some cases. If that mother chooses her own life, I don't blame her. Do you?
 
daz
2001-12-29 09:33:29 PM  
Mme.Mersault
Daz, if you do that again -you're gone.

Comprendez vous?

I don't care about the "why."


Do what? Post a picture from a clinic? People post all sorts of offensive stuff here, usually sexually offensive, demeaning to women, mostly untrue.

I post something to get someone to think and suddenly I'm a bad guy? LOL. Abortion defenders have reached a new low.

Now they not only can't wint the argument intellectually, they must stiffle and silence their opponents in order to keep the masses uneducated. Sad, sad indeed.
 
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