no, i wont loose all certainty if someone points out that its parable and not parabole.

Jeez, some of you guys just can't seem to get enough of this religious flame war crap.

"a book filled with parable does not bring truth home as the movie did."

This says nothing good about your intellect, much as the bible says nothing good about intelligence.

Great Legs State:

CNichols - such dreck! Satan appearin' on your screen talking to you? Sheesh

Of course! I have an opinion that differs from your, so I must be in league with evil.

Ah gots a debil in me! Save me Jebus!

"The Passion's audience is the segment of Christianity that shouts loudest and understands least."

MAYBE some who saw it are seeking more understanding of the sacrifice of the passion? Most fellow RCs I've spoken to are like me: never dreamed of the physical aspects of Christ's sacrifice... (Christ being: "The Word made flesh" or God's Son come to earth as man).

Look at some of the posts above by the believers and those who have seen it. They don't appear to be "shouters," but people who saw the film and discuss their feelings.

If level-headed, sane Christians attend The Passion of the Christ and walk away spiritually enriched, good for them. They've managed to transcend the polluting aspects of the film. However, they are, by and large, not the intended audience of The Passion.

So don't go see it, okay?

Of course, what I actually say doesn't matter. Does reading comprehension go against fundamentalist Christian values? Let's try this again...

"Having seen the film..."

im gonna come up with something really original here: THIS MOVIE IS RACIST AGAINST ITALIANS
how much more shiat do we italians have to take? Kill mel gibson! Riot in Hollywod! WQOWOWWJEWLFHEAKL!

Haven't read read the whole thread but when I saw Jesus onthe cross onthe end "Always look on the bright side of life" from Life of Brian was in my head...is that sacrelidge?

ocsnow:

Believe me, I'm not in any way, shape or form desensitized to suffering. It is a major part of the 4 Noble Truths which is a major part of my personal practice. I can't say that most people are desensitized to "suffering" so much as they are not mindful of it. However, watching the suffering of anyone is certain to engage our own emotions. But in most cases people are desensitized to violence. I the level of violence and gore detracts from the overall message, and I am not quite sure what Mr. Gibson wants that message to be. For Christians, the message seems to be, look at how much this person suffered so that you may be relieved of responsibility for your transgressions, which I think is barbaric.
The suffering on the screen did reminded me -- almost commanded me, that we don't have those in Buddhism -- to never inflict suffering on another being.

Are the Bible thumpers still here?

2004-03-03 09:03:47 PM sevenofnine471

For Christians, the message seems to be, look at how much this person suffered so that you may be relieved of responsibility for your transgressions, which I think is barbaric.


the message was not, in my mind, to relieve others of responsibility; but rather to accept responsibility and to seek redemption for our actions and failures to act.

in turn, to do this for others also, meaning to forgive and understand. this means not have us be merely recipients, but also sources of light.

it would truly be pointless to claim a ticket to moral superiority and salvation merely by ones affiliation to jesus; though i have no doubt some see it this way, maybe without even knowing so.

as to the 'amount' of suffering, one can say it is a matter of degree; but then again degrees matter. should i say that i have endured a slap for another, certainly that is suffering. were one to say that he endured the cross, that degree of suffering matters much, much more.

but to portray the degree of his willed suffering is also to aid one in the knowledge : those that speak out for kindness are usually the first ones stomped on.

The movies is interesting in that it shows Mel Gibson's obsession with rituals and symbolism.

Movie. No s.

maybe it would be a good idea if the Pharisees who occupy today's Israel all see this movie and learned to love and embrace their brothers instead of continuing the onslaught of horror and terror in the Middle East.

I believe that God is omnipotent and he grants us free will accepting this will allow evil because it will also allow good to flourish. Think of the sappy sentimental saying used for relationships: If you love something set it free, if it returns it was meant to be. If God coerced goodness and love from His creations that would be a hollow success. Also if you are God and know the breadth of eternity and life after death, the temporary suffering in a human's life is not significant. I am a parent and often I am faced with protecting my children or allowing them to make mistakes and learn from them. I think this relationship parallels our relationship with God.

CNichols
Having seen the film, I don't feel that The Passion of The Christ is anti-semitic. Rather, it is anti-humanity. Outside of Jesus and his family (James, Mary and Mary Magdeline), most people in the Passion is portrayed as utterly vile, wantonly cruel, and nigh demonic - indeed, in several places, literally demonic. Which is the fundamental basis of Christianity - a vast and all-encompassing self-loathing on the part of humanity.

Or in other words, it's an honest assessment of human nature.

One of the strengths of the Christian message is that it insists on reminding us of what we are--corrupt, fallable creatures. We cheat, we steal, we hurt, we kill. Most of all we lie: to our loved ones, to our neighbors, to ourselves. We even have the hubris to lie to our creator, to pretend that our actions have no moral consequences. Against that backdrop, Gibson's movie becomes much more understandable.

alexisWhile each of us may be dogmatic in our views, there's no way to logically and mathematically define which philosophy is "correct", which was the original argumenmt (dogma versus logic).

Disproving the dogmas of Marxism and feminism are actually empirical questions, which depend on mathematics(data) and logic(models) alone, not personal opinion.

2004-03-03 04:53:34 PM CNichols

"...a film which should be avoided. ... [gibson] fundamentalist zealot...the segment of Christianity that shouts loudest and understands least. It is ... wild-eyed...screech ...consecutive sixes... wild urban myths ...the Bible as an excuse for hatred.... embrace racism ... anti-semitism; that believe homosexuals are less than human; ... creationism and try to sue science out of schools; ... tendrils into education and government...legislate morality and love censorship ... rights and choices disappear ... blind, drooling acceptance of Christianity...teleevangelists ... snake-handlers ...the ...eternally-guilty ...unquestioning."


please let us know what movie you saw. i'd like to see it.

the above is more proof that we see what we want to see; that our kaleidoscope of belief system filters everything, sometimes transforming it.

btw i agree with Mouser,

with human nature being what it is, we are least productive trying to change it; and more productive in channeling and anticipating its deeds.

machiavelli would concur.

I did not read all the comments...not enough time in the day. I DID see the movie, though. I dont think the violence was too extreme. As it is documented (in the bible, if you believe it) that stuff happened. You beat and flog a guy 30-somthing times, its gonna look like that. You then nail him to a couple of pieces of wood, its goona look like that, too. It was as violent as it was supposed to be. I am NOT an x-tian, but I DO believe there was a guy named Jesus who went through this. It was amazing to see it "in real life", though I don't believe a person could survive all that, carry said pieces of wood, and survive to be crucified. And by the end of the movie, i DID feel sorry for the poor sum'biatch.

Initiate Nail Removal Immediately

One of the strengths of the Christian message is that it insists on reminding us of what we are--corrupt, fallable creatures. We cheat, we steal, we hurt, we kill. Most of all we lie: to our loved ones, to our neighbors, to ourselves. We even have the hubris to lie to our creator, to pretend that our actions have no moral consequences. Against that backdrop, Gibson's movie becomes much more understandable.

It's only a strength if that assumption that there are moral consequences for lying is accurate. In Plato's philosophy, the 'noble lie' is a crucial aspect of Utopia, which implies that if one understands the ends of the noble lie, it is immoral not to lie.

As for 'corrupt, fallible creatures', why are you assuming that that is something religion could impact? Those things were true of us even before religion begins and will be after religion disappears.

I'm Nailed Right In

actraiser2k1, I read all of the comments. Some of them were freaking hilarious. This guy talked about how he would like to see the actual depiction of the insemination of Mary and another guy talks about how Jesus was a Jew and why do christians hate Jews and another guy talks about how christians should thank Jews for saving them by killing Jesus and another guy talks about how he's not religious anymore for something and that whole God doesn't really exist thing. Freaking hilarious I tell you. I'm gonna go rip out my eyes now. Oh, yes, I'm atheist.

I can understand the animosity many of the posters here have towards the 'religion' that calls itself 'Christianity,' what I cannot understand is the hateful remarks about Jesus himself. Even the most committed atheist, if able to separate their atheism from their objectivity, must admit that the philosophy and teachings of Jesus offer a beautiful dream of humanity united by love, not divided by hate and fear.

Why so angry atheists? Your rejection of religion certainly does not seem to have given you any relief. Rather, you seem to delight in your efforts to belittle the beliefs of others. Why would you want to cause someone else to abandon their beliefs? Wouldn't that reduce your smug feeling of superiority over those fools who pray to the man in the sky?

If the best way you can think of to express your liberation from religion is to intentionally cause pain to other people, what does that say about you? Just because you think there is no God, have you abandoned the concept of right and wrong? Remember, all true knowledge must first be preceded by self-knowledge. Some of you sadists out there seem to ignore that fact.

Link = Sumitted - go me.

2004-03-03 03:06:35 PM Alexis

British

Next article: gay marriage reporting gone overboard.

Gay rights are the Abolitionist or Women's Suffrage movement of our time. It cannot possibly be overreported until America lives up to its name and grants equal rights to all.

You can't be freaking serious, can you? Gay people have EVERY SINGLE DAMN RIGHT that straight people have!

Your chosen sexual orientation does not grant you the ability to change the societal landscape. Sorry.

i couldn't agree more.

i think it's time to bring the focus back to the more important issues, such as Janet Jackson's boob.

monkeybiscuit
I can understand the animosity many of the posters here have towards the 'religion' that calls itself 'Christianity,' what I cannot understand is the hateful remarks about Jesus himself. Even the most committed atheist, if able to separate their atheism from their objectivity, must admit that the philosophy and teachings of Jesus offer a beautiful dream of humanity united by love, not divided by hate and fear.

Funny how none of his followers, left to their own means, would follow such teachings and philosophy.

What pisses us off about christ, is: You claim that these philosophies and teachings was something new and radical. What, like being a good person was something the world had never seen? There were literally hundreds of philosophers in Greece and Rome teaching peaceful dogma eons before christ was born.

But because, back in those days, they thought he was magic. Ever played "telephone" before? Sit in a circle and whisper that Joe is a really nice guy to the person next to you. by the time it gets back to you, Joe is shooting lightning from his arse and walking on water.

It's not like Xtians follow Christ's teachings anyways. If you did, you'd all be shaking hands with suicide bombers right before they detonate.

And you'd probably all be liberals. Ya know--Long haired, happy-go-lucky-vagrants who hang out with the rejects of society, partying all the time, helping the little guy, doing good deeds without thinking that they need to to save their soul, healing people that are sick(national health care), etc.

y'all may wanna re-evaluate your political stances. You'd think that the no-god-athiests would be the greedy capitalists with no care for who they crush.

Why would you want to cause someone else to abandon their beliefs? Wouldn't that reduce your smug feeling of superiority over those fools who pray to the man in the sky?

Uh, no, since you are trying to take control of this country. *cough* Ashcroft *cough* And although we as atheists/agnostics/deists believe in a peaceful, loving dogme, we reject your silly traditional beliefs, and necessity to inject your filthy seed into every human.

You are the ones who get that smug feeling when thinking about many billions of people are going straight to hell for not believing in your God, and how you are so right.

If the best way you can think of to express your liberation from religion is to intentionally cause pain to other people, what does that say about you?

I suppose it must hurt to hear people say things that directly oppose your upbringing and reality as you know it. Too Bad. You wanna prosyletize; and inject christianity into laws? Then its fine for me to speak logic in your ear.
/pseudo ad homiem

I don't like to see people in pain, but it always hurts to pull off a bandaid. (Yes, that's a metaphor for removing silly beliefs from a mind who cannot understand the world without them)

Just because you think there is no God, have you abandoned the concept of right and wrong?

Exactly the opposite. I know what right and wrong are without needing someone to tell me that I'm going to burn in a fiery pit for eternity if I do, in fact, do wrong.

I'm a friendly, law-abiding person because I have virtue, not because I'm scared of hell, or because I want to go to heaven.

Remember, all true knowledge must first be preceded by self-knowledge. Some of you sadists out there seem to ignore that fact.

take a poll of all the sadists in the world, and you will probably find that most of them sociopaths, or are pickup driving rednecks who slap their wives, or both.

or are into S&M--but that's a tiger of a different color.

NarcisisticRage:

You know right from wrong becuase of religion. Don't EVEN try to kid yourself and act like no one is telling you what right and wrong is. Right and wrong were established eons ago. I know you think your smart becuase your an atheist/agnostic/whatever, but don't kid yourself or argue outside of Fark.

And it's obvious you don't know crap about Christanity as well. You act like every Christian is just supposed to sit there and take crap and get killed. There is a difference between "turning the other cheek" and "I come not to bring peace, but a sword."

To hammer the point down: Don't argue with anyone outside of Fark. Your dumbass thought process would be crushed into powder by anyone with half a brain. But you are a classic whiny liberal and a Xtian speller, so I doubt your intelligence was ever in doubt.

Gavino

I am a bigot because I think that religious people will get more from this movie than athiests? ok....

You can't be freaking serious, can you? Gay people have EVERY SINGLE DAMN RIGHT that straight people have!

You can't be serious!?!?! Denying them the right for marriage/civil union is denying them a right of a straight person. And moreso, denies them many protections under the law that married couples enjoy. An example of this is in a link below:

http://www.glad.org/Publications/CivilRightProject/PBOsOfMarriage.pdf

Your chosen sexual orientation does not grant you the ability to change the societal landscape

First of all, I'm assuming that you don't know any gay people or you wouldn't be making the claim that it is "chosen". Secondly, many unbiased scientific studies conducted over the last several years have more that begun to confirm that sexual orientation is not chosen, but hard-wired. One such study conducted by the University of California sites a connection between sexual orientation and the size of the anterior commissure in the human brain.

IronY? or meta-journalism

So, was this settled yet?

Catholic Samarai-

And it's obvious you don't know crap about Christanity as well. You act like every Christian is just supposed to sit there and take crap and get killed. There is a difference between "turning the other cheek" and "I come not to bring peace, but a sword."


So then when, exactly, is the right time to kill?

Please note in your response how many people Christ killed for being sinners, and also the point of the passion play, where Christ DID SIT THERE AND TAKE ALL OF THAT CRAP AND GET KILLED. Also if you could please explain how as a Christian the many loopholes and ways that you can circumvent the DIRECT WORD OF GOD SAYING "THOU SHALT NOT KILL."

That is all.

Please respond. I am absolutely excited about your answer. This outta be GREAT!

I would like to respond by saying this idiot doesn't know crap about Christianity as well.

CatholicSamurai

You know right from wrong becuase of religion. Don't EVEN try to kid yourself and act like no one is telling you what right and wrong is. Right and wrong were established eons ago. I know you think your smart becuase your an atheist/agnostic/whatever, but don't kid yourself or argue outside of Fark.

Tell me that there was no such thing as Laws before christ was born. Tell me that it wasn't established for the ~1000 years of existance before moses brought down the ten commandments that killing people was wrong. Do you think that it was an utter epiphany to everyone that day? "No way! So...we're not supposed to kill people? It's a little radical, but I'll bite..."

It is an inherent trait that people are good. It's been there as long as man has been "conscious." You, as I've gathered from previous discussions, are a sociopath. The only superego that you have is what the church has given you. And thank God for that.

I still suggest that you sit down with your preacher, and ask him if it's OK that the only thing that keeps you from going Charles Manson on the rest of us is the fact that you don't want to go to hell. Don't be surprised if he wants to do an exorcism.

And it's obvious you don't know crap about Christanity as well.
My mother grew up in a strict Lutheran house, my father from a agnostic house. I was taken to church as a young child, babtised, confirmed, read the bible from cover to cover, went to youth groups in jr. high and high school, and in fact, I used to jam on the piano and guitar with one of the youthgroup ministers.

And then I realized that it was all made up crap.

(interesting sidenote: that youthgroup minister embezzeled $200,000 from the church, I later found out.)

My mother had me sit down with her church's pastor on several occaisions. Nicest guy in the world--I just didn't agree with him. I've gotten several calls from a different youthgroup minister who I'd also been close friends with. I've sat with her over many-a-starbucks in the past, and I still reject any explanation that she can give.

You act like every Christian is just supposed to sit there and take crap and get killed. There is a difference between "turning the other cheek" and "I come not to bring peace, but a sword."

Well, uh, yeah, considering it's God's plan for you to get killed, right? Don't mess with his plan, he drafted it long ago. You didn't see Christ fighting back, right? He was there to get everyone's sins forgiven. Maybe you're supposed to die for my sins.

Unless, Allah is trumping God's will. That would be farked up, wouldn't it.

Funny how they say there's no athiests in foxholes--or wearing bombs, for that matter. It's easy to get someone to fight when they are charged with the idea that
a)what they are doing is right
b)they are going to heaven anyways, so it doen't matter if they die.

Just think if those fundamentalists didn't believe in Allah, and knew that they weren't going anywhere when they died.......then they probably wouldn't want to farking die would they? Unless they had a REALLY GOOD REASON.

You on the other hand, knowing that nothing would happen and having no apparent necessity for self preservation, would kill and pillage, because you have no conscience. I suggest you getting crosses tattooed on the backs of both your hands.

To hammer the point down: Don't argue with anyone outside of Fark. Your dumbass thought process would be crushed into powder by anyone with half a brain. But you are a classic whiny liberal and a Xtian speller, so I doubt your intelligence was ever in doubt.

In college I lived in a house with ~50 other gentlemen. Catholics & liberals, republicans & democrats, Vikings & Packers fans, rich & poor, city & country boys--all intelligent men(now engineers, architects, lawyers, up-and-coming-politicians, handymen, ranchers, computer geeks, accountants, you name it)--and we argued night and day for 5 years. But we always remained close friends to this day--because we all have a genuine friendship that supercedes politics, religion, and in some cases, hygene.

Beautiful retort by the way. I like that part where you debunk nothing that I said by telling me that you're right, especially the part where you offer no arguement.

This, this is why I dislike Christians.

Catholic Samarai

"You know right from wrong becuase of religion."

Confucius predated Christianity by 5 centuries (the origin of the golden rule). Christianity says NOTHING about right and wrong that wasn't already said much more eloquently elsewhere.

And again for the hundredth time, you do not get morals from religion, but a code of obedience. This is not the same thing.

2004-03-03 03:06:35 PM Alexis

British

Next article: gay marriage reporting gone overboard.

Gay rights are the Abolitionist or Women's Suffrage movement of our time. It cannot possibly be overreported until America lives up to its name and grants equal rights to all.

Gay men have just as much right to marry a woman as straight men in this country.

Dr_Falken
Gay men have just as much right to marry a woman as straight men in this country.

the same way blacks could marry blacks and whites could marry whites, but could not marry each other, as argued in Loving vs. The state of Virginia.

Great logic. Do you opprose interracial marriage?

It was wrong before, and it's wrong today.

Who is this Jesus guy I keep hearing about?

2004-03-04 09:38:10 AM CatholicSamurai
2004-03-03 03:06:35 PM Alexis
British
Next article: gay marriage reporting gone overboard.
Gay rights are the Abolitionist or Women's Suffrage movement of our time. It cannot possibly be overreported until America lives up to its name and grants equal rights to all.
You can't be freaking serious, can you? Gay people have EVERY SINGLE DAMN RIGHT that straight people have!
Your chosen sexual orientation does not grant you the ability to change the societal landscape. Sorry.



It will happen,
but I dont think the landscape would be changed.
I think changing the title from "civil union" to "marriage" is a minor event.
And history will regard all this hooplah as a smokescreen for major issues that may actually effect a majority of the population as well as the government.

But regardless, this is a thread jack.
This thread is about a dramatisation of an event than noone here witnessed.

2004-03-04 02:26:16 PM NarcisisticRage

Dr_Falken
Gay men have just as much right to marry a woman as straight men in this country.

the same way blacks could marry blacks and whites could marry whites, but could not marry each other, as argued in Loving vs. The state of Virginia.

Great logic. Do you opprose interracial marriage?

It was wrong before, and it's wrong today.


Actually, I was thinking of something one of my history teachers said - that it was just as illegal for a rich man to sleep under a bridge as it was for a poor man.

It was a half-hearted attempt at humor, but you do get half-credit for recognizing it.

Incidentally, when I first read your post, I thought you said "Loving the state of Virginia" and thought "That's some farked up people right there".

More seriously, though - where is it written that marriage is a right? If it's a right, why does it have to be licensed from the state? The ability to change ones leaders is a G-d given right, and is protected in the US by the Constitution (the right for men to vote) and amendments 14 (the Government must protect everyones rights equally), 19 (the only amendment that specifically mentions gender), and 2 (the last defense against a tyrranical government). The same can't be said for marriage.