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(News.com.au)   Auschwitz's first inmate dies at 88, having outlived the Third Reich by nearly 60 years   (news-journal.com) divider line 406
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16098 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Feb 2004 at 12:27 AM (10 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2004-02-26 01:51:28 AM
Obdicut

Not to incense you with another off-topic comment, but this one's definitely off-topic. I have to ask, though, re: your profile - have you read Master and Margarita in English or Russian? Just curious, as I'm toying with my own translation of it.
 
2004-02-26 01:51:35 AM
Weaver95 thinks it's wrong to stereotype whole groups of people based on their ethnicity, religion or nationality, you know, like all those dirty commie Canadians do.
/must be tard day on Fark
 
2004-02-26 01:52:04 AM
Weaver95:
If I had a nickel for every canadian, european, aussie and/or socialist, neo-commie and wacko environmentalist I'd pissed off I'd be one rich guy.

Well yeah, but those people would tax the shiat out of you...

/didn't want to enter this discussion, but had to say that one
 
2004-02-26 01:52:51 AM
Oh, I got her point, HowlingFrog. I simply disagree with it. There's a difference.

And don't get smug there, Weaver95. spiro may be an obvious schmuck, but you're on thin ice yourself. Take a scoot through the Farkives and take note of the amount of moranic comments posted by your fellow citizens before you start pissing on those not blessed enough to share your nationality.
 
2004-02-26 01:52:55 AM
Bonzo_1116
this is why i find it offensive, and yes i realize that people still farm and eat pigs...

pig according to dictionary.com ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pg)
n.

1. Any of several mammals of the family Suidae, having short legs, cloven hooves, bristly hair, and a cartilaginous snout used for digging, especially the domesticated hog, Sus scrofa domesticus, when young or of comparatively small size.
2. The edible parts of one of these mammals.
3. Informal. A person regarded as being piglike, greedy, or gross.
4. Slang. A member of the social or political establishment, especially one holding sexist or racist views.


how can you tell me that the word pig does not have a blatantly negative connotation
 
2004-02-26 01:53:35 AM
spiro

We just don't wanna admit that tadlette told all of us off with a single post.

I don't care. What's he going to do, call me an idealogue again?

/prefers the term "idealist"...
 
2004-02-26 01:53:41 AM
Thats awesome. His family must be proud to have known such a hero.
 
2004-02-26 01:54:05 AM
[you make generalizations about canadian farkers which you in turn apply to canadians in general, then dismiss the scotsman too. Am i missing something?]

Just the humor. Sorry - I make the assumption that everyone's read the same conspiracy literature I have and would get the joke. Might have been a bit too subtle for most folks however. I was making fun of one conspiracy theory by invoking another.
 
2004-02-26 01:54:53 AM
Juansmith,

Well yeah, but those people would tax the shiat out of you...

I wish I had thought of that one. I bow to your superior tactical witticisms!
 
2004-02-26 01:55:22 AM
Cosmic_Music
There is such a thing as a good war.
Rest in peace.


Uh... except maybe the war that put a stop to this sort of thing? You think they would have been dismantling those gas chambers in '45 if the "enemy" weren't approaching?

You've got your history mixed up with your politics. The holocaust wasn't even related to the war, but it took one to put an end to it.

If I'm ever in a camp, I'd hope for a war over some distant pansy sentiment, or, as you said, "rest in peace."
 
2004-02-26 01:55:29 AM
[Take a scoot through the Farkives and take note of the amount of moranic comments posted by your fellow citizens before you start pissing on those not blessed enough to share your nationality.]

Yeah, that freedom of speech thing is a pain sometimes. But you gotta take the good with the bad, I suppose.
 
2004-02-26 01:55:32 AM
heavy-balls-a-slappin

Weaver95 thinks it's wrong to stereotype whole groups of people based on their ethnicity, religion or nationality, you know, like all those dirty commie Canadians do.


there should be annual fark awards for situations like this. i think you just made a nomination.
 
2004-02-26 01:55:44 AM
Yes, genocide happens remarkably frequently. The reason that so much attention is given to the Holocaust is because it happened in a highly developed Western nation. It was government sanctioned, and unbelievably highly organized, carried out with scientific precision, where as genocidal events like the Rwandain genocide had about a months worth of planning and essentially was mob rule, with one ethnic group enacting out revenge.

Read more about Stalin and what he did to those in the USSR-organized famines (7-10 million Ukrainians, Poles), executions, prison camps in Siberia-the list goes on. Not trivializing the Holocaust, it was a horror, but there were other "organized" genocides that haven't had Hollywood movies made about them.
 
2004-02-26 01:55:49 AM
freakemart

I know what you mean. Okay look, Im not denying it didn't happen, or the fact that it was bad. Im not even saying that we should forget about it. But don't feel sorry for blacks today because of what happend to their ancestors. For example, affirmative action. Whether you agree with it or not, it's because of blacks being treated badly back then, that blacks in present day are being given special treatment. Which is unfair to people like you and me who aren't black. However, I do acknowledge the fact that slavery was horrible, and we should remember it so we don't repeat it.
 
2004-02-26 01:57:17 AM
Halfmast Trousers, the post read There is such a thing as a good war. Please fully read posts before replying to them.
 
2004-02-26 01:59:03 AM
[Not trivializing the Holocaust, it was a horror, but there were other "organized" genocides that haven't had Hollywood movies made about them. ]

True, but hollywood ignored Stalin's atrocities for years. Not because they didn't know about them, but because one simply did NOT say such things about the Soviet Union. Want to really have a blast? Read some of the things hollywood actors and producers said in defense of Stalin's show trials of the late 1930's.
 
2004-02-26 01:59:41 AM
As a neo-Christian proud of my Kraut heritage, but absolutely opposed to anti-semitism, I must admit a kind of confusion and intimidation about some of the issues surrounding the history of the Holocaust. It seems if you ask questions which logically arise, but may threaten the official version of events, you are an automatic antiSemite.

I have no doubt that the Holocaust occurred, but it seems to have been conducted in a way that is unusually chaotic for we Krauts, with our robotic attention to detail. I don't understand why, if the camps were merely death factories, one of the first men put in would survive the whole war. Surely, if the point was just to kill as many Jews as possible, they would have gotten around to him before they got to all the others that they did kill. Can anyone offer some insight here? Also I'm not understanding why the SS-run camps would let any Jews or any other camp prisoner survive when it became obvious that Hitler's regime was doomed? For there to have been any survivors, the Nazis would have had to keep feeding the camp prisoners even after a point at which food and supplies for German peasants and soldiers was running critically short. This seems to fly in the face of conventional understanding of the Holocaust and its motives.

I am also curious about the numbers of dead. For years, every history class I had said 4 million. Now the standard I hear appears to be 6 million. But I have also heard some nazi-hunters give numbers as high as 10 million. Is this increase the result of improved scholarship, the incorporation of non-Jewish victims into the total or what? Again, helpful historical information would be welcomed and appreciated.

One more thought, no question here, just my opinion. Every time someone from the ADL, or a rabbi, or any Jewish representative goes on television and starts calling word-for-word quotes from the Gospels or the Epistles of Paul "Blood Libel" or just Anti-Semitic, a Christian somewhere hardens his or her heart.

Jewish tradition and literature has plenty of nasty things to say about Jesus in particular (Son of Roman Rapist), and we Gentiles (OK to take advantage of in usury, etc.) It also contains records of some events where, unless one is a fervent Jewish supremacist (If there is such a thing,) the morality of the actions that the Jewish people take is tricky to deal with at best. The book of Esther (Purim) pops to my mind right away, but there's more.

Why is it that two groups of people (Christians and Jews) who believe they have actually talked to and been led by God seem to take his attention as some type of a curse of perpetual misery, or as a blood-feud which they are obligated to continue in some way? Can't we just agree to disagree, then keep our snide little comments about each other to ourselves? God seems to demand better behavior from those he calls on, not self-justified hate of those we disagree with. Just a thought.
 
2004-02-26 02:00:18 AM
Did Tadlette leave? How did she 'tell us off with one post'?

I was hoping she'd put her ideals to the test and answer:

2004-02-26 01:41:02 AM TheGoblinKing


Tadlette,

At the risk of veering into political flaming which I will not take part in, the result is most certainly not the same.

'Hitler's War' killed millions for no reason other than power and glory. The 'Allied War' killed (perhaps not) millions but served to stop Hitler's reign of terror. Would you have not waged war on Hitler if you were in Churchill's or FDR's shoes on principle?


...but alas, it appears as if being an idealist means not having to deal with the real world sometimes.
 
2004-02-26 02:00:34 AM
Nirvana98R
What It finally comes down to with Maus is that it's a farking comic book. You don't hear people complaining that the americans are dogs, do you? Being referred to as a dog is considered insulting just as much as a pig, but most people get that this is a comic book. Spiegelman is using funny animal characters to tell a very serious story.
 
2004-02-26 02:01:40 AM
*sighs*

Because it's about hatred and demonisation of others making it easy to call for and cause their deaths, regardless of if they've been pulled from a civilian population or just killed because they happened to live in a place where war was made. Hitler's action was a pre-emptive strike against the Jews, right?

This isn't going to turn into an Iraq flamewar and such was not my intention. I find Weaver95s hypocrisy sickening in bemoaning the death of innocents in one context and excusing it (no, praising it) in another. Neither war was necessary, both happened due to a lust for power and glory on behalf of the starters of the wars. Does that make my point more clear?

War when you are attacked is a different thing, I don't know how this got into the equation TheGoblinKing and El_Swino.

Perhaps I should leave you with these words:

What I have [experienced] here cannot be said with words.
Only our memory will be our shield because it still does not happen.


Stanislaw Ryniak, political prisoner to Auschwitz,

"This room, in the prepared sacrario small in chiesina, collects symbolically all the century as soon as passed, with the crimes of the nazi extermination camps, of Hiroshima, of the Gulag, Cambodia, the Bosnia and the Kosovo, the Rwanda and Algeria. Above all it is for we the icona of the Shoah of the Hebrew that is to the center of the century like paradigm of all the human suffering and like symbol of the Evil.

And to try to think. To think next to that that he has happened, to which mechanisms they have constructed between we hell and have convinced normal men and women to put it in feet. Think next to what the masses, the race, the propaganda, the conformismo, the bureaucracy, the elimination of a true political debate have been able [to achieve]."

It's still happening, people.
 
2004-02-26 02:02:03 AM
haddock-boy
Halfmast Trousers, the post read There is such a thing as a good war. Please fully read posts before replying to them.


Good lord, you're right!
Thanks for your pedantic correction. Do I at least get some points for unwittingly agreeing with the poster?
 
2004-02-26 02:02:07 AM
monkeybiscuit

Hahahaha, and ya'll thought I was bad!!!
 
2004-02-26 02:02:07 AM
spiro

Yeah, I basically agree with you. There's no use in feeling sympathy for someone who wasn't involved in the first place. Although you have to admit, your Boobies was pretty bad. I mean, the man was a Holocaust survivor for christsakes. He wasn't a descendent of a survivor, he was THE survivor. I'm just saying, show a little sympathy for the guy, he went through more than you, I, or anyone else here will likely go through in their lifetime.
 
2004-02-26 02:02:19 AM
Yeah, that freedom of speech thing is a pain sometimes. But you gotta take the good with the bad, I suppose.

Indeed, Weaver95. What one doesn't have to do is tar all with the same brush because of the actions of an idiotic minority.
 
2004-02-26 02:02:36 AM
[...but alas, it appears as if being an idealist means not having to deal with the real world sometimes.]

I would like to have seen an answer to a few questions myself. I don't think we'll see it tho. And I've got an early meeting tomorrow and won't be online for much longer.
Bugger.
 
2004-02-26 02:02:52 AM
Nirvana
I believe that in some respects, the author DID want to show the Poles as a group in a "not so good" light, seeing as how Poland has had mixed relations with its Jewish population over the centuries. And some of the Poles in the story WERE greedy and pig-like in the pejorative sense.

But here's a question: do you currently consider yourself as a Pole or an American? Dogs are also filthy animals (but they've got personality ;)
 
2004-02-26 02:05:37 AM
TheGoblinKing

was hoping she'd put her ideals to the test and answer ...but alas, it appears as if being an idealist means not having to deal with the real world sometimes.

Or perhaps she was spending more than a few seconds on the reply. Hey, at least I diverted it from the anti-semitism shiatfight it was in danger of becoming. Whipping boys are us.
 
2004-02-26 02:05:42 AM
OH well...enough for me kids, it's off to bed.

Y'all have a good night!
 
2004-02-26 02:06:02 AM
Um....where it says "Boobies", it's supposed to say Boobies. Stupid filter.
 
2004-02-26 02:06:34 AM
[I find Weaver95s hypocrisy sickening in bemoaning the death of innocents in one context and excusing it (no, praising it) in another.]

Hmmm...I was going to say that I find your ignorance frustrating and dismaying. But hey - being ignorant of history is it's own punishment. I just hope you don't get the chance to enact it, that's all.

Then again, I never could wrap my head around pacifists and thier hypocracy. Despite all that historical evidence, they still hold ideas that fly in the face of sanity.
 
2004-02-26 02:06:50 AM
tadlette

So now we're comparing the Holocaust to the war in Iraq? Welcome to the ranks of PETA. Regardless of your point, your analogy is tasteless.
 
2004-02-26 02:07:42 AM
[Hitler's action was a pre-emptive strike against the Jews, right?]

Wrong.
 
2004-02-26 02:08:08 AM
Weaver-I'll have to check those out. But I still haven't seen anything in the "mainstream" really dealing with Stalin's atrocities. Mostly stuff about his paranoia and eliminating political "opponents", not mass murders
 
2004-02-26 02:08:11 AM
Ok, foiled by the filter again. That's "Boobies".
 
2004-02-26 02:08:30 AM
Kot Bergamot

Can you Godwin a Holocaust thread with the Iraq war? I think you can.....


GAME OVER MAN!!! Game over!....
 
2004-02-26 02:09:10 AM
Weaver95
I would like to have seen an answer to a few questions myself. I don't think we'll see it tho. And I've got an early meeting tomorrow and won't be online for much longer.
Bugger.


Got to go iron your hood? I thought those meetings were usually after sundown.
 
2004-02-26 02:09:25 AM
Bugger. I'd LOVE to stick around and hammer tadlette's point into the ground. But she'd never admit she's was wrong AND i've got to get up in three hours and get ready for a series of meetings.

So, with regret, i'm off to bed.
 
2004-02-26 02:09:27 AM
Tadlette,

Whoa!

There she is...I was packing up and leaving.

That is the one thing I hate about 'blogging...sometimes it takes too long to write a good post, when if it were in person you'd be able to rattle it off in seconds.

Perhaps we have the same position then: war sucks, but sometimes it is necessary...no?
 
2004-02-26 02:10:27 AM
freakemart means "primer comentario/post"...

On topic: Rest in peace, Mr. Ryniak... A brave and strong man like that deserves that and more.
 
2004-02-26 02:10:41 AM
Ok, last try. Diagonally this time:

F alskdjf;lasdjfklsa
I alsjdkfk;asjdkl;fjds
R alskdjfkl;asjd
S aslkjdf;asdf
T adsflajsdlf
P al;sdkjf;sad
O alsjdfl;jsa
S aksldfj;as
T lasdkfl;

If that doesn't work, I give up.
 
2004-02-26 02:11:10 AM
freakemart

It's supposed to say "Boobies". Its cool man. Im out, later ya'll.
 
2004-02-26 02:11:49 AM
SimuLord, as a cousin of a Catholic Priest who died in those camps, I hope you get the Big Casino. One of my friends is a survivor of the Khmer Rouge Re-Education Camps...they killed his father for being a doctor, he's spoken only a few times of what terrible things he saw & he endured-I do know he's a good foot shorter than he ought to be because of the malnutrition alone. If FARK were around in WW2 I'd bet most people on this board would be opposed to USA intervention, blaming the US or crying out for boobies...and whenever they say "Never Again" I look at the Tutsis or the Serbs and shrug...
 
2004-02-26 02:11:57 AM
And by "that" I meant an awesome time in Heaven (or wherever awesome people go) and away from all the worries of this world!

Bwee!
 
2004-02-26 02:12:13 AM
freakemart

I suppose you could have also tried saying "initial post" or something like that. Just a thought ;-)
 
2004-02-26 02:12:20 AM
2004-02-26 02:00:34 AM mome23
What It finally comes down to with Maus is that it's a farking comic book. You don't hear people complaining that the americans are dogs, do you? Being referred to as a dog is considered insulting just as much as a pig, but most people get that this is a comic book. Spiegelman is using funny animal characters to tell a very serious story.


i don't think spiegelman wrote maus to be "just a comic book." and dogs are considered to be loyal and smart animals. and its not like americans endured millions of casualties only to be later represented negatively in a book. (at least not in this war)

and Bonzo_1116
i totally see where you're coming from. i know that jews/poles had a strained relationship, but i just thought that common suffering would bring 2 groups closer together, not make them hate each other more. So many Poles died solely for helping Jews that its a shame that history considers Poles compliant with the nazis and cold towards the suffering of jews. and, to answer your question, i was born in poland, my entire family is from poland, i consider myself both polish and american.. but if i had to choose, i'd choose Pole
 
2004-02-26 02:12:27 AM
[But I still haven't seen anything in the "mainstream" really dealing with Stalin's atrocities. Mostly stuff about his paranoia and eliminating political "opponents", not mass murders.]

The History channel ran something on Stalin last week. I think it was called 'Stalin: Man of Steel' or something close. It must have been communism week or something, 'cause they ran a bunch of stuff on his atrocities.

There's some stuff coming out of the old NKVD archives about the Stalin era and Soviet history. But it's making alot of academics here in the US and Europe VERY VERY nervous, so translation is slow and the subject material very difficult to locate. It's worth the effort of digging up however.
 
2004-02-26 02:13:02 AM
Stalin made Hitler look like a boyscout.

He had everyone shot at one time or another. Jews, Masons, Germans, Poles, Inuit, Chinese, People who could read, people who couldn't, his most trusted government officials...

Hitler just did it with more...erm...style (at a loss for appropriate word here.)
 
2004-02-26 02:13:09 AM
And NOW i'm outta here.
 
2004-02-26 02:13:16 AM
monkeybiscuit
Just as there are loonies who deny the holocaust, there are also legitimate questions concerning inconsistancies in the "official version". Probably always will be.
But it's a closed book, carved in stone, and opening it is one of the strictest taboos ingrained in people's minds. Hence the pre-programmed, visceral reactions.

At any rate, this thread honors a man who lived through the nazis' Hell on earth, and I leave it at that with a tip of my cap to him.

Rest in Peace, Sir.
 
2004-02-26 02:14:11 AM
Kot Begemot

So now we're comparing the Holocaust to the war in Iraq? Welcome to the ranks of PETA. Regardless of your point, your analogy is tasteless.

The 'comparison' is the needless death of the innocent. The Shoah museum link above includes Hiroshima, Russia, Cambodia, Bosnia and Kosovo, Rwanda and Algeria in their mourning list, but i'm not allowed to?

Allow me to say as politely as possible: screw you buddy.
 
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