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(Scientific American)   Time travel simulation resolves 'grandfather paradox,' makes 99 percent of Back To The Future fan fiction even more irrelevant   (scientificamerican.com) divider line 64
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5535 clicks; posted to Geek » on 03 Sep 2014 at 11:15 AM (15 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-09-03 07:50:02 AM  
38.media.tumblr.com

33.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-09-03 11:21:28 AM  
So you went into a quantum environment with an expectation of results and you came out of a quantum environment with those expected results.

Hmmmmmm. Those quantum are tricksy.
 
2014-09-03 11:22:36 AM  
How many times do I have to ask these guys to just read James Hogan's 'Thrice Upon A Time'?

The glory of that novel was the depiction of the development of the theoretical model of time and time travel.  For another thing, it was a pretty good depiction of real science.  For another, their model was so elegant that, if reality *doesn't* work that way, it damn well should!
 
2014-09-03 11:24:57 AM  
x1.fjcdn.com
 
2014-09-03 11:28:43 AM  

foo monkey: [x1.fjcdn.com image 494x595]


He was better off without the delta waves, anyway.
 
2014-09-03 11:29:19 AM  

Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: So you went into a quantum environment with an expectation of results and you came out of a quantum environment with those expected results.

Hmmmmmm. Those quantum are tricksy.


Schrodinger frowns upon such shenanigans (or maybe merely just Einstein).
 
2014-09-03 11:50:31 AM  
"...she only has a fifty fifty chance of murdering her grandfather."

img1.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-09-03 11:50:51 AM  
Maybe no time travelers came to Hawkings party because:

1) Hawking will have been long since forgotten or irrelevant by the time time travel is invented. Nobody cares about the people who didn't believe in Heliocentrism. No one will care about the guy who didn't believe in time travel.

2) The English language as we know it will no longer exist when time travel is invented. Who would go to a party with people you can't communicate with?

3) Time travelers don't wish to reveal that time travel is possible to people of the past for reasons, paradoxical or moral.

4) The late 20th/early 21st centuries are super boring, dusty histories to future generations and no one will want to come back and see it.
 
2014-09-03 11:56:35 AM  

Driedsponge: foo monkey: [x1.fjcdn.com image 494x595]

He was better off without the delta waves, anyway.


The general's assistant (guy on the left) is a pretty good candidate to be Fry's 'real' grandfather, if he's not his own grandfather because of quantum.
i127.photobucket.comtheinfosphere.org

Though he does yell "hang in there dad!" (IIRC) at Enos' crotch, and recognizes Enos as his grandpa when they first arrive so...hmm...
 
2014-09-03 12:22:13 PM  

foo monkey: [x1.fjcdn.com image 494x595]


Now please explain how Enos and Mrs. Fry both have the "spiky orange hair" gene.
 

Also, anyone interested in the article's topic should check out Kip Thorne's Black Holes and Time Warps (1995).
 
2014-09-03 12:26:42 PM  

Ivo Shandor: foo monkey: [x1.fjcdn.com image 494x595]

Now please explain how Enos and Mrs. Fry both have the "spiky orange hair" gene.father
 

Also, anyone interested in the article's topic should check out Kip Thorne's Black Holes and Time Warps (1995).


If not for the 'hang in there' line, I would have supposed that was Mrs. Fry's father, thus allowing my 'general's assistant' theory...alas...it is not to be
 
2014-09-03 12:28:47 PM  

cgraves67: 4) The late 20th/early 21st centuries are super boring, dusty histories to future generations and no one will want to come back and see it.


Boring?! Wasn't that the period when they cracked the human genome, and boy bands roamed the earth?!
 
2014-09-03 12:31:06 PM  

Ivo Shandor: Now please explain how Enos and Mrs. Fry both have the "spiky orange hair" gene.


His mom gave him that gene. He went back in time to become his own grandpa so he could be born to go back in time and become his own grandpa. Kind of like how Stewie from Family Guy created the universe to he could be born in order to create the universe.
 
2014-09-03 01:08:50 PM  
I know who I am, now we can figure out who you zombies are
 
2014-09-03 01:29:06 PM  

loonatic112358: I know who I am, now we can figure out who you zombies are


How could you have posted this, when I came here to post this? Are you me? Am I you? The time strings are converging in unpredictable ways. Was/were you and I present when we tried to assassinate Hitler and four men came from nowhere and simultaneously garroted, poisoned, stabbed and shot him?
 
2014-09-03 01:36:52 PM  

Fano: loonatic112358: I know who I am, now we can figure out who you zombies are

How could you have posted this, when I came here to post this? Are you me? Am I you? The time strings are converging in unpredictable ways. Was/were you and I present when we tried to assassinate Hitler and four men came from nowhere and simultaneously garroted, poisoned, stabbed and shot him?


Everybody kills Hitler on their first trip.
 
2014-09-03 01:40:22 PM  
WELCOME TO THE FUTURE!!
 
2014-09-03 01:41:07 PM  
WELCOME TO THE FUTURE!!

/again.
 
2014-09-03 01:42:28 PM  

foo monkey: [x1.fjcdn.com image 494x595]


Incomplete.

theinfosphere.org
 
2014-09-03 01:47:57 PM  

ToastmasterGeneral: Fano: loonatic112358: I know who I am, now we can figure out who you zombies are

How could you have posted this, when I came here to post this? Are you me? Am I you? The time strings are converging in unpredictable ways. Was/were you and I present when we tried to assassinate Hitler and four men came from nowhere and simultaneously garroted, poisoned, stabbed and shot him?

Everybody kills Hitler on their first trip.


The problem is they all try to kill him once he's gained power

They should either kill him on a battlefield as a youth, or encourage him to stay in art

Much like Castro should have stayed in baseball
 
2014-09-03 01:50:10 PM  
ELI5 please (solving the grandfather thing).
 
2014-09-03 02:02:30 PM  
BTW, we repeated this thread this Thurs.
 
2014-09-03 02:05:58 PM  
Well I did do the nasty in the pasty
 
2014-09-03 02:15:02 PM  
So the website must have revealed something that would allow me to invent time travel, and as a result, an in order to avoid a causal paradox, quantum fluctuations in the universe have led to a chain of events that caused this page to produce an error while loading for me.
 
2014-09-03 02:37:01 PM  

Trocadero: "...she only has a fifty fifty chance of murdering her grandfather."


And if she succeeds?  Then the paradox exists and we're back to square one!  Stating the issue in terms of quantum particles and probabilities hasn't resolved the issue.

Could it be that a person who succeeds in killing their grandfather merely eliminates that particular time stream from the large (infinite?) number of alternate time streams?  The person CAN'T go back and kill grandpa because that specific time stream is no longer one of the possible/probable options.
 
2014-09-03 02:40:37 PM  

aerojockey: So the website must have revealed something that would allow me to invent time travel, and as a result, an in order to avoid a causal paradox, quantum fluctuations in the universe have led to a chain of events that caused this page to produce an error while loading for me.


Alternately, if you can travel backward in time, you don't get to come back to the same timeline you left, thus preventing paradoxes. So of course there are no time travelers to show up at Hawking's party. In some other timestream(s) there is/are a very confused Stephen Hawking(s) wondering where all these people got invitations to his house, and a timestream where he's elated that time travel works. Unfortunately, any information those travelers give about 'the future' will be mostly incorrect, since it's a different timestream. IMHO, the only 'safe' way to time travel backward and forward would be if you were not physically present, but were able to look around in the time/place you were at. Give VR another decade, figure out quantum computing, send clouds of nanorecorders to wherever/whenever you want, rent VR bandwidth on the stream (whereby you could float around and/or visit anywhere in the world that interests you during that time) and bam! Time Travel Tourism.
 
2014-09-03 02:45:55 PM  

Brainsick: aerojockey: So the website must have revealed something that would allow me to invent time travel, and as a result, an in order to avoid a causal paradox, quantum fluctuations in the universe have led to a chain of events that caused this page to produce an error while loading for me.

Alternately, if you can travel backward in time, you don't get to come back to the same timeline you left, thus preventing paradoxes. So of course there are no time travelers to show up at Hawking's party. In some other timestream(s) there is/are a very confused Stephen Hawking(s) wondering where all these people got invitations to his house, and a timestream where he's elated that time travel works. Unfortunately, any information those travelers give about 'the future' will be mostly incorrect, since it's a different timestream. IMHO, the only 'safe' way to time travel backward and forward would be if you were not physically present, but were able to look around in the time/place you were at. Give VR another decade, figure out quantum computing, send clouds of nanorecorders to wherever/whenever you want, rent VR bandwidth on the stream (whereby you could float around and/or visit anywhere in the world that interests you during that time) and bam! Time Travel Tourism.


Most idiots would pay to "Go back to that little town in Chile.. you know, the one we went to a couple of years ago with the Blickmeyers where Stan got bit by the monkey!"
 
2014-09-03 02:57:45 PM  

indy_kid: Trocadero: "...she only has a fifty fifty chance of murdering her grandfather."

And if she succeeds?  Then the paradox exists and we're back to square one!  Stating the issue in terms of quantum particles and probabilities hasn't resolved the issue.

Could it be that a person who succeeds in killing their grandfather merely eliminates that particular time stream from the large (infinite?) number of alternate time streams?  The person CAN'T go back and kill grandpa because that specific time stream is no longer one of the possible/probable options.


The past is obdurate. And resists paradox creation. At least as easily as Achilles never beats the tortoise.
 
2014-09-03 03:08:11 PM  
i think that someday, future generations are going to study our civilization, and wonder how the fark we could believe in the crazy science shiat that we believe in.
 
2014-09-03 03:20:04 PM  

loonatic112358: Everybody kills Hitler on their first trip.

The problem is they all try to kill him once he's gained power

They should either kill him on a battlefield as a youth, or encourage him to stay in art


I went back in time and posed as an art critic.  I told him he sucked.  But to be fair, he sucked.

You can pin World War II on me.
 
2014-09-03 03:50:10 PM  

cgraves67: Maybe no time travelers came to Hawkings party because:

1) Hawking will have been long since forgotten or irrelevant by the time time travel is invented. Nobody cares about the people who didn't believe in Heliocentrism. No one will care about the guy who didn't believe in time travel.

2) The English language as we know it will no longer exist when time travel is invented. Who would go to a party with people you can't communicate with?

3) Time travelers don't wish to reveal that time travel is possible to people of the past for reasons, paradoxical or moral.

4) The late 20th/early 21st centuries are super boring, dusty histories to future generations and no one will want to come back and see it.


5) Time travelers didn't show up because they already knew that Hawking throws dry, humorless parties with cheap booze, at which he doesn't ever shut up about "Hawking Radiation". Something that the time travelers know is based on flawed assumptions and faulty math and has been proven invalid in their future age.

6) The Time Travelers have all been sworn to never visit the party as a colossal time-prank on Hawking.
 
2014-09-03 03:57:42 PM  

Fano: Was/were you and I present when we tried to assassinate Hitler and four men came from nowhere and simultaneously garroted, poisoned, stabbed and shot him?


ToastmasterGeneral: Everybody kills Hitler on their first trip.


loonatic112358: The problem is they all try to kill him once he's gained power

They should either kill him on a battlefield as a youth, or encourage him to stay in art


Haven't you guys read IATT Bulletin 1147? Do so quickly; otherwise, you'll face expulsion.

Besides, everybody knows that if you kill Hitler, ww2 kicks off as the Allies vs. the USSR. And the Russkies will have these bad boys:

www.cnclabs.com
 
2014-09-03 04:02:41 PM  
Shut the hell up, and give us our god dammed hoverboards, already!
 
2014-09-03 04:39:54 PM  

Uzzah: foo monkey: [x1.fjcdn.com image 494x595]

Incomplete.

[theinfosphere.org image 380x715]


I think Larry and Walt are Wernstroms kids.  Think it came out in Benders Game(?).
 
2014-09-03 04:47:20 PM  

cgraves67: 4) The late 20th/early 21st centuries are super boring, dusty histories to future generations and no one will want to come back and see it.


Nobody wants to kill Hitler?
 
2014-09-03 04:55:35 PM  

unyon: loonatic112358: Everybody kills Hitler on their first trip.

The problem is they all try to kill him once he's gained power

They should either kill him on a battlefield as a youth, or encourage him to stay in art

I went back in time and posed as an art critic.  I told him he sucked.  But to be fair, he sucked.

You can pin World War II on me.


At least it wasn't an alien posing as him, this time around
 
2014-09-03 04:56:16 PM  

12349876: cgraves67: 4) The late 20th/early 21st centuries are super boring, dusty histories to future generations and no one will want to come back and see it.

Nobody wants to kill Hitler?


Hitler's atrocities will pale in comparison to those of Shaniqua Montepal during WW7.
 
2014-09-03 04:57:23 PM  

washington-babylon: cgraves67: Maybe no time travelers came to Hawkings party because:

1) Hawking will have been long since forgotten or irrelevant by the time time travel is invented. Nobody cares about the people who didn't believe in Heliocentrism. No one will care about the guy who didn't believe in time travel.

2) The English language as we know it will no longer exist when time travel is invented. Who would go to a party with people you can't communicate with?

3) Time travelers don't wish to reveal that time travel is possible to people of the past for reasons, paradoxical or moral.

4) The late 20th/early 21st centuries are super boring, dusty histories to future generations and no one will want to come back and see it.

5) Time travelers didn't show up because they already knew that Hawking throws dry, humorless parties with cheap booze, at which he doesn't ever shut up about "Hawking Radiation". Something that the time travelers know is based on flawed assumptions and faulty math and has been proven invalid in their future age.

6) The Time Travelers have all been sworn to never visit the party as a colossal time-prank on Hawking.


7) No one showed up because history stated no on showed up, and they have  a temporal prime directive not to interfere with past events.


Also, so they discovered the Machine Language Time Code?  I hear it's paradox-correcting.
 
2014-09-03 04:58:43 PM  

phyrkrakr: Fano: Was/were you and I present when we tried to assassinate Hitler and four men came from nowhere and simultaneously garroted, poisoned, stabbed and shot him?

ToastmasterGeneral: Everybody kills Hitler on their first trip.

loonatic112358: The problem is they all try to kill him once he's gained power

They should either kill him on a battlefield as a youth, or encourage him to stay in art

Haven't you guys read IATT Bulletin 1147? Do so quickly; otherwise, you'll face expulsion.

Besides, everybody knows that if you kill Hitler, ww2 kicks off as the Allies vs. the USSR. And the Russkies will have these bad boys:

[www.cnclabs.com image 640x480]


Of course I've read it, which is why I didn't go back to kill Hitler, I have his great great great grandparents a condom

Trust me, if I didn't he'd have had children in this timeline
 
2014-09-03 05:00:02 PM  

12349876: cgraves67: 4) The late 20th/early 21st centuries are super boring, dusty histories to future generations and no one will want to come back and see it.

Nobody wants to kill Hitler?


Everyone wants to kill him as soon as they get access to time machine

Cgraves is kept busy rectifying those actions
 
2014-09-03 05:14:25 PM  
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodwinsLawOfTimeTravel

As the amount of time-traveling you do increases, the probability of Hitler winning World War II approaches one.

"Talked to the wrong person? Nazi victory! Left technology back before the dinosaurs were wiped out? Nazi victory! Stepped on a bug? Nazi victory! Left a tap running? Nazi victory!
 
2014-09-03 05:38:25 PM  

Brainsick: aerojockey: So the website must have revealed something that would allow me to invent time travel, and as a result, an in order to avoid a causal paradox, quantum fluctuations in the universe have led to a chain of events that caused this page to produce an error while loading for me.

Alternately, if you can travel backward in time, you don't get to come back to the same timeline you left, thus preventing paradoxes. So of course there are no time travelers to show up at Hawking's party. In some other timestream(s) there is/are a very confused Stephen Hawking(s) wondering where all these people got invitations to his house, and a timestream where he's elated that time travel works. Unfortunately, any information those travelers give about 'the future' will be mostly incorrect, since it's a different timestream. IMHO, the only 'safe' way to time travel backward and forward would be if you were not physically present, but were able to look around in the time/place you were at. Give VR another decade, figure out quantum computing, send clouds of nanorecorders to wherever/whenever you want, rent VR bandwidth on the stream (whereby you could float around and/or visit anywhere in the world that interests you during that time) and bam! Time Travel Tourism.


I think Asimov covered this in one of his short stories.
 
2014-09-03 06:07:54 PM  

cgraves67: Maybe no time travelers came to Hawkings party because:


8) Time travelers actually did show up. But, due to the immense energy required for such an undertaking, they were only a few nanometers wide so we never detected them.
 
2014-09-03 06:16:09 PM  

loonatic112358: 12349876: cgraves67: 4) The late 20th/early 21st centuries are super boring, dusty histories to future generations and no one will want to come back and see it.

Nobody wants to kill Hitler?

Everyone wants to kill him as soon as they get access to time machine

Cgraves is kept busy rectifying those actions


Okay... what would be the current European/World population if 6 million additional people were breeding? And would we even care about half of the shiat in the middle east?
Always wondered.
 
2014-09-03 06:22:53 PM  

Pinner: loonatic112358: 12349876: cgraves67: 4) The late 20th/early 21st centuries are super boring, dusty histories to future generations and no one will want to come back and see it.

Nobody wants to kill Hitler?

Everyone wants to kill him as soon as they get access to time machine

Cgraves is kept busy rectifying those actions

Okay... what would be the current European/World population if 6 million additional people were breeding? And would we even care about half of the shiat in the middle east?
Always wondered.


Dont forget the political situation in china and india. decolonization after the british empire left india surely had some help with the british dealing with wwii
 
2014-09-03 07:17:48 PM  

Zombalupagus: cgraves67: Maybe no time travelers came to Hawkings party because:

8) Time travelers actually did show up. But, due to the immense energy required for such an undertaking, they were only a few nanometers wide so we never detected them.


Fits my (Asimov's? I'll have to track that one down) scenario...yoink!
 
2014-09-03 07:19:41 PM  
Been thinking a bit more, if there were a South Park, "dey took our jerbs" scenario, so far in history it'd be hard to beat as a young adult going to the first world right after WWII.

/greatest generation without having to be great
 
2014-09-03 07:26:15 PM  
Ok, just found a phenomenal link on this topic excerpted from an Orson Scott Card book that I'm now going to buy

http://books.google.com/books?id=sV7T 1SETQ08C&pg=PA46&lpg=PA46&dq=tim e +traveling+observers+story&source=bl&o ts=YVRFbopx30&sig=PZZvqjno-leCud jum11I6hadGoY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=E6IHVI7nEu niiwLhkYHABA&ved=0CDYQ6AEwCA
(Sorry for the gobbledygook, on my phone)
 
2014-09-03 08:10:56 PM  
i1004.photobucket.com

"Wibbily, wobbily, timey-whimey...stuff..."
 
2014-09-03 08:22:34 PM  

loonatic112358: I know who I am, now we can figure out who you zombies are


Copyright infringement.  You'll be hearing from my lawyer.
 
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