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(Yahoo)   Sen Chris Murphy (D-UH) points out that when one country is sending troops and tanks across the border of another to engage in fighting, that is technically, what you might call "a war"   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 214
    More: Obvious, Russia, Ukraine, sen. chris murphy, Eastern Ukraine, Russian forces  
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5127 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Sep 2014 at 2:33 PM (11 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-09-02 12:42:04 PM  
Sen. Murphy, The Korean 'War' called. And so did Vietnam...and Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Grenada, Panama, etc...
 
2014-09-02 01:03:16 PM  
Could be a joint training exercise. Just sayin'. Or a big international kegger that got out of hand.
 
2014-09-02 01:14:51 PM  

PhiloeBedoe: Vietnam..


wasn't it a police action?
 
2014-09-02 01:58:34 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: PhiloeBedoe: Vietnam..

wasn't it a police action?


220, 221, whatever it takes to not have Congress formally declare a war-- thereby forcing us in to a specific set of goals with which to end said war-- instead allowing us to do whatever heinous bullshiat we want in an open-ended conflict with no set goals and no trigger mechanism for ending said conflict while still technically upholding the Constitution on which our country is fu*king founded while at the same time taking a giant dump on it.
 
2014-09-02 02:11:47 PM  

gopher321: Could be a joint training exercise. Just sayin'. Or a big international kegger that got out of hand.


www.screenused.com
 
2014-09-02 02:36:25 PM  
It's not a war, it's "kinetic military action".
 
2014-09-02 02:36:28 PM  
I'm waiting for the Russian apologists to claim that it isn't happening and/or the Russian military lets soldiers "on leave" check out the tanks and artillery as long as they promise to bring them back with a full fuel tank.
 
2014-09-02 02:37:01 PM  
We were in St. Petersburg the day that Russian tanks went in to Georgia.

/the other one
 
2014-09-02 02:37:19 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: PhiloeBedoe: Vietnam..

wasn't it a police action?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScxI94XDdtY
Country Joe and the Fish agree

/NSFW lyrics
 
2014-09-02 02:40:37 PM  
I bet Ukraine is feeling pretty stupid for giving up their nukes.
 
2014-09-02 02:41:25 PM  

Calmamity: 220, 221, whatever it takes


I love you for this.
 
2014-09-02 02:43:10 PM  

Enlightened Liberal: I bet Ukraine is feeling pretty stupid for giving up their nukes.


Right, because the threat of even a limited nuclear exchange between Russia and the Ukraine would be so much better?
 
2014-09-02 02:43:13 PM  
55 years ago some country rolled into Poland, I think that one became a "war"
 
2014-09-02 02:44:41 PM  
Call it what you want, I still see no need to U.S. intervention. They'll sort it out themselves one way or another.

Now, cue the explanations of why the U.S. must act as world police yet again and pick sides in some regional conflict that has no direct impact on our interests.
 
2014-09-02 02:45:20 PM  
It is not a war, it is Xtreme Diplomacy.
 
2014-09-02 02:45:25 PM  

Enlightened Liberal: I bet Ukraine is feeling pretty stupid for giving up their nukes.


That decision has never ended well for anyone.
 
2014-09-02 02:47:01 PM  

Enlightened Liberal: I bet Ukraine is feeling pretty stupid for giving up their nukes.


I was thinking that same thing this weekend.
 
2014-09-02 02:47:16 PM  

maniacbastard: It is not a war, it is Xtreme Diplomacy.


That was just a cheap knock off of StarGate: UN
 
2014-09-02 02:48:06 PM  

Ned Stark: Enlightened Liberal: I bet Ukraine is feeling pretty stupid for giving up their nukes.

That decision has never ended well for anyone.


Except for Brazil and South Africa, both of which abandoned nuclear programs and haven't seemed to regret the lost expense.
 
2014-09-02 02:48:22 PM  

PhiloeBedoe: Sen. Murphy, The Korean 'War' called. And so did Vietnam...and Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Grenada, Panama, etc...


Did we take tanks into Grenada?   Seems like a jeep with some plywood would have got the job done there.
 
2014-09-02 02:49:11 PM  

XveryYpettyZ: I'm waiting for the Russian apologists to claim that it isn't happening and/or the Russian military lets soldiers "on leave" check out the tanks and artillery as long as they promise to bring them back with a full fuel tank.


If they are defending weak leadership at home, then they are Obama apologists.  Get it straight.
 
2014-09-02 02:50:02 PM  

AurizenDarkstar: Enlightened Liberal: I bet Ukraine is feeling pretty stupid for giving up their nukes.

Right, because the threat of even a limited nuclear exchange between Russia and the Ukraine would be so much better?


My belief is that by just having nuclear weapons, Russia may not have invaded the Ukraine or provided as much support to the rebels. The Ukraine on its own can't win a conventional war against Russia so Putin knows he can push the envelope. Of course even if the Ukraine had nukes, Putin could call their bluff since I doubt either side would actually use nuclear weapons.
 
2014-09-02 02:52:29 PM  

Ned Stark: Enlightened Liberal: I bet Ukraine is feeling pretty stupid for giving up their nukes.

That decision has never ended well for anyone.


The US gave their nukes to Japan in 1945. That worked out okay.
 
2014-09-02 02:55:07 PM  

maniacbastard: Enlightened Liberal: I bet Ukraine is feeling pretty stupid for giving up their nukes.

I was thinking that same thing this weekend.


what are they going to do, nuke themselves?
 
2014-09-02 02:55:42 PM  

monoski: 55 years ago some country rolled into Poland, I think that one became a "war"


1 September 1939, Germany invades Poland (Germany claimed it was in response to Polish sabotage operations against German targets). 3 days later, France and the UK declared war on Germany.

If Ukraine feels it rises to "undeclared war", they can rectify the current confusion by declaring that a state of war exists between Ukraine and Russia.

I was led to believe that a state of war really, legally, only exists when one or both sides officially say it does. We've hashed this out over the last half-century, when declaring wars was made to be passe by the US (and everyone else, seeing what we were able to get away with by not saying the secret word, gamely followed suit).
 
2014-09-02 02:55:51 PM  

DoBeDoBeDo: PhiloeBedoe: Sen. Murphy, The Korean 'War' called. And so did Vietnam...and Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Grenada, Panama, etc...

Did we take tanks into Grenada?   Seems like a jeep with some plywood would have got the job done there.


Some U.S. Army Rangers hotwired a bulldozer and used it as a makeshift tank.  Led by this dude, back when he was a captain:

www.truthdig.com
 
2014-09-02 02:57:15 PM  

Enlightened Liberal: My belief is that by just having nuclear weapons, Russia may not have invaded the Ukraine or provided as much support to the rebels. The Ukraine on its own can't win a conventional war against Russia so Putin knows he can push the envelope. Of course even if the Ukraine had nukes, Putin could call their bluff since I doubt either side would actually use nuclear weapons.


What rebels.
 
2014-09-02 02:57:45 PM  

GORDON: XveryYpettyZ: I'm waiting for the Russian apologists to claim that it isn't happening and/or the Russian military lets soldiers "on leave" check out the tanks and artillery as long as they promise to bring them back with a full fuel tank.

If they are defending weak leadership at home, then they are Obama apologists.  Get it straight.


Not clear how to read this post.  Is it trying to be funny?  Is it serious?  Was the writer able to read and comprehend what s/he was responding to?  So perplexing.
 
2014-09-02 02:58:55 PM  

Sgt Otter: Led by this dude, back when he was a captain:


That is not Clint Eastwood, sir.
 
2014-09-02 02:59:43 PM  
When you can do this to UA tanks without much sweat ....   you don't need nukes.

i.imgur.com
 
2014-09-02 03:03:11 PM  

but whole: has no direct impact on our interests.


Wait, is there oil there?  Better find that out first...
 
2014-09-02 03:04:06 PM  

but whole: Call it what you want, I still see no need to U.S. intervention. They'll sort it out themselves one way or another.

Now, cue the explanations of why the U.S. must act as world police yet again and pick sides in some regional conflict that has no direct impact on our interests.


I think the reasoning goes if one lets Russia get away with this they will do it more, including NATO countries. I am not sure if agree with that reasoning but you could make a case based on that.
 
2014-09-02 03:05:11 PM  
The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances is a political agreement signed in Budapest, Hungary on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories relating to Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The Memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents.[1]
The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine as well as those of Belarus and Kazakhstan. As a result Ukraine gave up the world's third largest nuclear weapons stockpile between 1994 and 1996,[2][3] of which Ukraine had physical though not operational control. The use of the weapons was dependent on Russian controlled electronic Permissive Action Links and the Russian command and control system.[4][5]
Following the 2014 Crimean crisis, the U.S.,[6][7] Canada,[8] the U.K.,[9] as well as the other countries [10] all separately stated that Russian involvement is in breach of its obligations to Ukraine under the Budapest Memorandum, and in clear violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity. Russia, however, argued that the Budapest memorandum does not apply to the 2014 Crimean crisis because separation of Crimea was driven by an internal political and social-economic crisis. Russia initially claimed it was never under obligation to force any part of Ukraine's civilian population to stay in Ukraine against its will.[11]
 
2014-09-02 03:06:26 PM  

Isitoveryet: maniacbastard: Enlightened Liberal: I bet Ukraine is feeling pretty stupid for giving up their nukes.

I was thinking that same thing this weekend.

what are they going to do, nuke themselves?


Well most countries that have nukes have nukes themselves many times in uninhabited land.

Find some uninhabited land that happens to have a bunch of troops traveling through.
Preform nuclear test.
Profit???
 
2014-09-02 03:06:44 PM  
If Ukraine did have nuclear weapons, they would be put in the position of threatening First Use (since you don't have to threaten nuclear weapons when you have a ridiculous conventional advantage).  That would put Ukraine at a big diplomatic disadvantage and maybe even trigger sanctions on them.
 
2014-09-02 03:06:57 PM  
i1.cpcache.com
 
2014-09-02 03:07:21 PM  

gopher321: Could be a joint training exercise. Just sayin'. Or a big international kegger that got out of hand.


The Battle of Karánsebes, during the Austro-Turkish War of 1787-1791.

The lead units of an Austrian army, composed of many different units which didn't even speak the same language, went into the town of Karánsebes on a scouting mission.  They did not find the enemy, but did find a group of gypsies who were happy to sell them a goodly load of schnapps.  A later unit came up to the scene, demanded some of the booze, and the first unit objected.

Someone got pissed or scared and fired off a round.  A fight ensued between the two units and started to spread.  Some officers started shouting "halt" in German ... which sounded to their men who did not speak German a lot like Turks shouting "Allah".  Some commander saw some of his own army's cavalry tear-assing through camp, thought he was being charged by the enemy, and started firing cannons at his own guys.  At that point the entire army basically decided to head for the hills.

Two days later the Turks got to the town and found out they killed 10,000 Austrian troops without having even know it.

Here's hoping the only thing that's happening in Ukraine is a bunch of sergeants got a little to lax on the daily vodak limits.
 
2014-09-02 03:07:57 PM  

but whole: Call it what you want, I still see no need to U.S. intervention. They'll sort it out themselves one way or another.

Now, cue the explanations of why the U.S. must act as world police yet again and pick sides in some regional conflict that has no direct impact on our interests.


I'm guessing you don't remember the part where the US swore up and down that we'd keep Ukraine's borders and sovereignty sacrosanct when we asked them to give up the nukes, and they only did so with the understanding we'd stop other countries from invading them. Russia even said they'd do the same.

Were I another country, particularly in that region, I'd be accelerating my development of nuclear deterrents.
 
2014-09-02 03:08:58 PM  
Then:
image-store.slidesharecdn.com

Now:
scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net

"Make dance, not war" ( GI Joe Adventure Team Commander of Interpretive Dance )
 
2014-09-02 03:09:38 PM  

Calmamity: The Stealth Hippopotamus: PhiloeBedoe: Vietnam..

wasn't it a police action?

220, 221, whatever it takes to not have Congress formally declare a war-- thereby forcing us in to a specific set of goals with which to end said war-- instead allowing us to do whatever heinous bullshiat we want in an open-ended conflict with no set goals and no trigger mechanism for ending said conflict while still technically upholding the Constitution on which our country is fu*king founded while at the same time taking a giant dump on it.


Yeah, because the Vietnam War was TOTALLY U.S. aggression against a sovereign nation, and not the U.S. trying to DEFEND a sovereign nation from a Soviet-backed insurgency and invasion. The Vietnam War was badly fought by the U.S. Army, but the U.S. wasn't the main bad guy, nor the instigator of the war. It was a somewhat murkier Korea (in that South Korea didn't have a bunch of home-grown Communists trying to overthrow their own government).

This is the same crap people say about Afghanistan, ignoring the fact that NATO (it's not a U.S.-led mission) is there fighting FOR most Afghans, and against a fairly small minority.

There's nothing in the Constitution that prevents the President from honoring treaty obligations by sending in troops to support a friendly country. In fact, he specifically has that power, and it doesn't involve declaring war.

What W did in Iraq, that was illegal. Invading a hostile country is basically the definition of declaring war. Congress completely abrogated its duty there.
 
2014-09-02 03:09:46 PM  

netcentric: When you can do this to UA tanks without much sweat .... you don't need nukes.


UA?
 
2014-09-02 03:11:36 PM  

fireclown: netcentric: When you can do this to UA tanks without much sweat .... you don't need nukes.

UA?


Ukraine has an army.    It has tanks.

...study it out
 
2014-09-02 03:13:08 PM  
it's only war and aggression when other Nations do it.  if 'murrca does it ( attacking Iraq for ex) , it's 'pertectin' freedumb' and 'makin' da' world safe fer' democrisy'

'murrcan exceptionalism.  exceptionally stupid.
 
2014-09-02 03:13:08 PM  

Calmamity: The Stealth Hippopotamus: PhiloeBedoe: Vietnam..

wasn't it a police action?

220, 221, whatever it takes



Subtle and holy crap you made me laugh.
 
2014-09-02 03:13:26 PM  

Isitoveryet: maniacbastard: Enlightened Liberal: I bet Ukraine is feeling pretty stupid for giving up their nukes.

I was thinking that same thing this weekend.

what are they going to do, nuke themselves?


No, but I doubt Putin would have been so brazen about annexing Crimea and now rolling his army into eastern Ukraine if he thought Moscow could get glassed over it.

Maybe he would have done it anyway, but then I think other nations would be more eager to try to work out an end to this current situation if they thought Ukraine might get sick of it and respond to a foreign invasion with nukes.
 
2014-09-02 03:13:48 PM  

XveryYpettyZ: GORDON: XveryYpettyZ: I'm waiting for the Russian apologists to claim that it isn't happening and/or the Russian military lets soldiers "on leave" check out the tanks and artillery as long as they promise to bring them back with a full fuel tank.

If they are defending weak leadership at home, then they are Obama apologists.  Get it straight.

Not clear how to read this post.  Is it trying to be funny?  Is it serious?  Was the writer able to read and comprehend what s/he was responding to?  So perplexing.


Teabaggers aren't really known for their thinking or writing skills
 
2014-09-02 03:13:50 PM  

netcentric: fireclown: netcentric: When you can do this to UA tanks without much sweat .... you don't need nukes.

UA?

Ukraine has an army.    It has tanks.

...study it out



see above.
 
2014-09-02 03:15:27 PM  
The United States has only been involved in five formally declared wars - the War of 1812, the Mexican-American War, the Spanish American War, World War I, and World War II. The only nations the United States has formally declared war against are the United Kingdom, Mexico, Spain, Germany (twice), Austria-Hungary, Japan, Italy, Bulgaria, Hungary, and Romania. Everything else was apparently just a tickle fight.
 
2014-09-02 03:16:31 PM  

monoski: 55 years ago some country rolled into Poland, I think that one became a "war"



and some years ago, some country attacked Iraq, mistakenly.   i think that one became whatever the U.S. wanted it to become.

ain't Freedumb great!
 
2014-09-02 03:17:13 PM  

Enlightened Liberal: I bet Ukraine is feeling pretty stupid for giving up their nukes.


THIS - good luck getting anyone else to give them up.
 
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