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(The Raw Story)   Scholars don't think there was a real life Jesus Christ. Well God damn   (rawstory.com) divider line 371
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12551 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Aug 2014 at 4:38 PM (15 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-31 02:24:40 PM  
A scholar, who's selling a book about it.
 
2014-08-31 02:26:02 PM  
Well I'm sure the 1.5 billion people who believe in him will just call it a day then
 
2014-08-31 02:39:00 PM  
img.fark.net
 
2014-08-31 02:47:52 PM  
This is going to be fun to watch.  Eventually, churches will be saying, "We never taught he was a real person!  He's an idea!"

More and more people are seeing fundamentalism, and even moderate biblical literalists, as comically superstitious.  Biblical scholars star this, then churches (already started), the eventually the whole panoply of Christian churches start to realize that if they want butts in the seats and dollars in the plate, they'll shift.

But in the third world, they'll keep on keeping on the way they do now, and it will be at least 2 more millennia before they catch up.  If at all.
 
2014-08-31 03:07:52 PM  
Makes sense seeing as there doesn't seem to be anyone who believes anything he supposedly said, either
 
2014-08-31 03:24:23 PM  
I thought it was pretty well documented that Jesus was a real person who walked the earth. The son of God thing though....
 
2014-08-31 03:37:41 PM  

Earthworm Jim Jones: I thought it was pretty well documented that Jesus was a real person who walked the earth. The son of God thing though....


Yeah - RTFA.

Jesus appears to be an effect, not a cause, of Christianity. Paul and the rest of the first generation of Christians searched the Septuagint translation of Hebrew scriptures to create a Mystery Faith for the Jews, complete with pagan rituals like a Lord's Supper, Gnostic terms in his letters, and a personal savior god to rival those in their neighbors' longstanding Egyptian, Persian, Hellenistic and Roman traditions.

You should read the thing to find out why that's their conclusion.
 
2014-08-31 03:44:21 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Earthworm Jim Jones: I thought it was pretty well documented that Jesus was a real person who walked the earth. The son of God thing though....

Yeah - RTFA.

Jesus appears to be an effect, not a cause, of Christianity. Paul and the rest of the first generation of Christians searched the Septuagint translation of Hebrew scriptures to create a Mystery Faith for the Jews, complete with pagan rituals like a Lord's Supper, Gnostic terms in his letters, and a personal savior god to rival those in their neighbors' longstanding Egyptian, Persian, Hellenistic and Roman traditions.

You should read the thing to find out why that's their conclusion.


Nah, that's not my style. I'm too lazy and farking on phone while trying not to kill people at the mall.
 
2014-08-31 03:45:23 PM  

Earthworm Jim Jones: I thought it was pretty well documented that Jesus was a real person who walked the earth. The son of God thing though....


FTA:"What sorts of things do pagan authors from the time of Jesus have to say about him? Nothing. As odd as it may seem, there is no mention of Jesus at all by any of his pagan contemporaries. There are no birth records, no trial transcripts, no death certificates; there are no expressions of interest, no heated slanders, no passing references - nothing. In fact, if we broaden our field of concern to the years after his death - even if we include the entire first century of the Common Era - there is not so much as a solitary reference to Jesus in any non-Christian, non-Jewish source of any kind. I should stress that we do have a large number of documents from the time - the writings of poets, philosophers, historians, scientists, and government officials, for example, not to mention the large collection of surviving inscriptions on stone and private letters and legal documents on papyrus. In none of this vast array of surviving writings is Jesus' name ever so much as mentioned." ...For centuries all serious scholars of Christianity were Christians themselves, and modern secular scholars lean heavily on the groundwork that they laid in collecting, preserving, and analyzing ancient texts. Even today most secular scholars come out of a religious background, and many operate by default under historical presumptions of their former faith.
 
433 [TotalFark]
2014-08-31 03:52:45 PM  
Whether he existed or not, it matters very little now, with the exception of intellectual and scholarly works.

That isn't to say the subject is dead, or risen.  yuk yuk yuk.

Church attendance is falling, but Jesus will be relevant for a looong time.
 
2014-08-31 04:39:11 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Eventually, churches will be saying, "We never taught he was a real person!  He's an idea!"


There's no reason for them to since they'll never be able to definitively prove he wasn't a real person.  It's an area of interest for atheists and that's about it.
 
2014-08-31 04:43:32 PM  
I question his existence. I'm not fully convinced he was real.
 
2014-08-31 04:43:39 PM  
From what I understand, there are very, very few scholars of antiquity that seriously believe Jesus, as a person, never existed. This is the equivalent of the one scientist that writes an article against climate change and gets all the attention.
 
2014-08-31 04:43:42 PM  

shower_in_my_socks: For centuries all serious scholars of Christianity were Christians themselves


Forgive me if I'm wrong, which I probably am, don't the Jews believe that Jesus existed? Or is the article saying that he wasn't mentioned in Jewish scriptures until centuries after his death?
 
2014-08-31 04:44:23 PM  
www.onlythebeat.com

I'm shocked!  Shocked!
 
2014-08-31 04:45:53 PM  

Lsherm: Benevolent Misanthrope: Eventually, churches will be saying, "We never taught he was a real person!  He's an idea!"

There's no reason for them to since they'll never be able to definitively prove he wasn't a real person.  It's an area of interest for atheists and that's about it.


Maybe.  But it's kind of like the relationships between Christians and Jews - only recently have Christian churches started preaching that they don't hate the Jews - for centuries, churches taught Jews were evil, Christ-killers, going to hell...  Now, they say, "We never hated the Jews, we've always preached tolerance, conversion of the Jews was never our meaning."

I can see the same thing happening before too very long on gay marriage, and eventually on the idea that Jesus was an actual person.
 
2014-08-31 04:46:12 PM  
Why does it matter?  Is it so horrible if Jesus is a conglomoration of ideas developed over hundreds of years by a community designed to represent what they think is the best of humanity?  I know Captain America isn't real but I feel if I strive to be like him I would lead a happy virtuous life.
 
2014-08-31 04:46:44 PM  
Simpsons did it.

starcasm.net
 
2014-08-31 04:46:48 PM  
Atheist here.... I never really doubted that this person walked the earth... historically, it seems to make sense, and obviously, SOME REALLY PERSON/S came along and influenced all the people who eventually found this religion...
 
2014-08-31 04:46:48 PM  
No OBVIOUS tag today?
 
2014-08-31 04:47:52 PM  
Didn't read the article but I thought there has always been very little "real" (non-scripture) historical evidence for Jesus.
 
2014-08-31 04:47:55 PM  
We've got stuff from about 50 years after he supposedly died, that's pretty much the earliest verifiable thing, and it was more of a mention of the followers of the cult that they had heard of. So, I'm part of the groups that do not believe he actually existed, and perhaps he was a conglomeration of several people which makes sense since there are so many other stories which line up with other deity stories.

/Studies ancient history
//To be fair, the area dealing with Jesus and Christianity is a bit outside my area.
 
2014-08-31 04:48:18 PM  
wwwdelivery.superstock.com

This should be good.
 
2014-08-31 04:48:27 PM  

Earthworm Jim Jones: I thought it was pretty well documented that Jesus was a real person who walked the earth. The son of God thing though....


Well, now someone wrote an Alternet article that appeared on RawStory, so that pretty much settles it.
 
2014-08-31 04:48:45 PM  
I like Jesus, even if he is only an idea. It's the people who claim to follow him that I have problems with.
 
2014-08-31 04:49:03 PM  

fearmongert: Atheist here.... I never really doubted that this person walked the earth... historically, it seems to make sense, and obviously, SOME REALLY PERSON/S came along and influenced all the people who eventually found this religion...


They are known as "Greeks"
 
2014-08-31 04:51:07 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: This is going to be fun to watch.  Eventually, churches will be saying, "We never taught he was a real person!  He's an idea!"

More and more people are seeing fundamentalism, and even moderate biblical literalists, as comically superstitious.  Biblical scholars star this, then churches (already started), the eventually the whole panoply of Christian churches start to realize that if they want butts in the seats and dollars in the plate, they'll shift.

But in the third world, they'll keep on keeping on the way they do now, and it will be at least 2 more millennia before they catch up.  If at all.


It's mauve easy to believe that, but you might just be running in the circles that think like you. I know when I go home for the holidays, I'm blown away about how many people still make a point to show everyone just how much more they love Jesus than everyone else.

If anything, the American conservative movement is giving it a push back. It's almost like they are believing even harder just because so many "academics" with "liberal college" learnin' think otherwise.
 
2014-08-31 04:51:19 PM  

shower_in_my_socks: Earthworm Jim Jones: I thought it was pretty well documented that Jesus was a real person who walked the earth. The son of God thing though....

FTA:"What sorts of things do pagan authors from the time of Jesus have to say about him? Nothing. As odd as it may seem, there is no mention of Jesus at all by any of his pagan contemporaries. There are no birth records, no trial transcripts, no death certificates; there are no expressions of interest, no heated slanders, no passing references - nothing. In fact, if we broaden our field of concern to the years after his death - even if we include the entire first century of the Common Era - there is not so much as a solitary reference to Jesus in any non-Christian, non-Jewish source of any kind. I should stress that we do have a large number of documents from the time - the writings of poets, philosophers, historians, scientists, and government officials, for example, not to mention the large collection of surviving inscriptions on stone and private letters and legal documents on papyrus. In none of this vast array of surviving writings is Jesus' name ever so much as mentioned." ...For centuries all serious scholars of Christianity were Christians themselves, and modern secular scholars lean heavily on the groundwork that they laid in collecting, preserving, and analyzing ancient texts. Even today most secular scholars come out of a religious background, and many operate by default under historical presumptions of their former faith.


Interesting.  I was raised catholic but have never been a believer but I've always assumed that Jesus was a real person who did actually live.  From what I've read there are many "scholars" who tend to take religious sources at face value despite seemingly obvious reasons to be skeptical.
 
2014-08-31 04:51:42 PM  
those hathen non-believrs will surly burn in the eternal firs of HELL AND DAMNATION, or not
 
2014-08-31 04:51:55 PM  
Christ, what an....
 
2014-08-31 04:52:32 PM  

doglover: A scholar, who's selling a book about it.


Yeah, no one has ever sold books about Jesus before.

i1300.photobucket.com
 
2014-08-31 04:53:53 PM  

Earthworm Jim Jones: I thought it was pretty well documented that Jesus was a real person who walked the earth. The son of God thing though....


There is absolutely zero proof that a human being that fits the biblical description of Jesus Christ ever existed.  There is more "proof" that Harry Potter is a real living human that ever existed for Christ.
 
2014-08-31 04:55:52 PM  

shower_in_my_socks: In fact, if we broaden our field of concern to the years after his death - even if we include the entire first century of the Common Era - there is not so much as a solitary reference to Jesus in any non-Christian, non-Jewish source of any kind.


So this disqualifies Josephus's writings on the Jewish War, since he was Jewish, and relies largely on sources outside Judea to report on what was then a minor Jewish phenomenon.
 
2014-08-31 04:55:53 PM  

433: Whether he existed or not, it matters very little now


Oh, yes it matters.  If Christ was never "real", the entire basis of Christianity falls apart.
 
2014-08-31 04:56:24 PM  
The article brings up another point I really find mystifying beyond the historical reality of Jesus. I was brought up in a non-fundie church that believed much of the Bible is allegorical or, at least, a somewhat corrupted version of what was originally written or realty due to the long time between the events and their recording.

I read the whole thing as a teenager. I could say that made me an atheist (which I am now), but that's not really true b/c I was taught there were contradictions in the Bible, so I wasn't really very surprised to see them. What floored me is when I really talked to fundies for the first time armed with my new found Biblical knowledge. They would tell me the whole Bible is literally true with no errors. I would point out that the Bible was full of contradictions, so it couldn't all be true. It was like talking to a brick wall.

As someone who is intellectually curious and open, I have never been able to even begin to understand these people. They may as well be space aliens.
 
2014-08-31 04:56:41 PM  
All of his famous contemporaries have tons of things written about them while they were alive.  You don't even hear about Jesus until fifty years after he supposedly died.  If he's walking around making miracles, why did nobody write about it at the time, even in passing?  Seems like it would be the big story of the region, a guy going around curing the lepers and such.
 
2014-08-31 04:58:57 PM  

Schroedinger's Glory Hole: Is it so horrible if Jesus is a conglomoration of ideas developed over hundreds of years by a community designed to represent what they think is the best of humanity?


Yes, it is horrible, because the basis of Christianity is that Jesus was sacrificed on the cross, and was resurrected.  If Christ never existed, there was no sacrifice, and the entire foundation of Christianity is at best disingenuous and at worst an outright lie.
 
2014-08-31 04:59:10 PM  
What if Jesus was into magic? He walked on water and turned water in to wine they say, but maybe it was all an elaborate illusion? Props, slight of hand....

/he was a Jewish carpenter
//there was a real estate market bubble that burst right around that time
///he was just trying to make a living
 
2014-08-31 04:59:16 PM  
Yeah, it's been awhile since I studied this, my 50 year mark was quite off (I could have sworn it was around 80 CE, but it was more like 115 CE, my bad), so nearly 100 years after Jesus' supposed death, we get the first really trustworthy source, and even then it's still very much a "supposedly" type thing.
 
2014-08-31 04:59:26 PM  
Regardless of whether he actually live or not I think we can all agree that he was most likely gay, right?
 
2014-08-31 04:59:35 PM  
B-B-But there are a few documents, the equivalent of off handed mentions of what would have been THE news event of the time... And just because at least 1 of those has been proven fake, and the others can't be verified, doesn't mean that this 'overwhelming' evidence isn't real.

As I've said before the 'historian' documents Christians often point are about as convincing and compelling if you found a few prominent news papers from the 1980s that talked once or twice about this guy named "Reagan", but he was deemed no more important than this off handed mention.
 
2014-08-31 05:00:38 PM  

shower_in_my_socks: Earthworm Jim Jones: I thought it was pretty well documented that Jesus was a real person who walked the earth. The son of God thing though....

FTA:"What sorts of things do pagan authors from the time of Jesus have to say about him? Nothing. As odd as it may seem, there is no mention of Jesus at all by any of his pagan contemporaries. There are no birth records, no trial transcripts, no death certificates; there are no expressions of interest, no heated slanders, no passing references - nothing. In fact, if we broaden our field of concern to the years after his death - even if we include the entire first century of the Common Era - there is not so much as a solitary reference to Jesus in any non-Christian, non-Jewish source of any kind. I should stress that we do have a large number of documents from the time - the writings of poets, philosophers, historians, scientists, and government officials, for example, not to mention the large collection of surviving inscriptions on stone and private letters and legal documents on papyrus. In none of this vast array of surviving writings is Jesus' name ever so much as mentioned." ...For centuries all serious scholars of Christianity were Christians themselves, and modern secular scholars lean heavily on the groundwork that they laid in collecting, preserving, and analyzing ancient texts. Even today most secular scholars come out of a religious background, and many operate by default under historical presumptions of their former faith.


I find that part kinda silly since christianity was little more than a fringe cult for a long time. and i like how they exclude jewish sources as well, so they can ignore that yeshua was mentioned in josephus

/not christian
//raised catholic, once upon a time
 
2014-08-31 05:00:38 PM  
(sung to the tune of "God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen")
Historians aren't even sure that Jesus Christ was real,
Or more like Harry Potter with first-century appeal.
The records of the time have precious little to reveal.
Wi-ith tidings of lo-ogic and fact,
Logic and fact.
Oh, with ti-i-dings of lo-ogic and fact.
 
2014-08-31 05:00:41 PM  

doglover: A scholar, who's selling a book about it.


The Bible is for sale.

I call it a wash.
 
2014-08-31 05:03:13 PM  

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: All of his famous contemporaries have tons of things written about them while they were alive.  You don't even hear about Jesus until fifty years after he supposedly died.  If he's walking around making miracles, why did nobody write about it at the time, even in passing?  Seems like it would be the big story of the region, a guy going around curing the lepers and such.


He could have existed without every miracle in the Gospels being literally true, you know.
 
2014-08-31 05:03:18 PM  
Then why are their photos of him riding on dinosaurs?
 
2014-08-31 05:03:29 PM  

Earthworm Jim Jones: I thought it was pretty well documented that Jesus was a real person who walked the earth. The son of God thing though....


No. His life is extremely poorly documented. We have no primary documents written during his life. The gospels were written well after his death. If he was a real person, that would be very odd, to say the least. Not to mention that many Christians from close to the time of his alleged death don't seem to have thought of him as a real person. Read the writings of Paul, and it's pretty clear that he thought of Christ in the same way that someone in the Cult of Mithras would view their deity - as having lived in a distance mythical time not related to our own.
 
2014-08-31 05:03:30 PM  
So courageous.

I wonder what his thoughts on Muhammad and Islam are, and if he'll attach his name to those thoughts.
 
2014-08-31 05:03:40 PM  
>>>um...who didn't know this already?
 
2014-08-31 05:03:43 PM  

Lsherm: Benevolent Misanthrope: Eventually, churches will be saying, "We never taught he was a real person!  He's an idea!"

There's no reason for them to since they'll never be able to definitively prove he wasn't a real person.  It's an area of interest for atheists and that's about it.


What atheists? I can imagine few things of less consequence to me than whether Jesus of someone like him ever existed.
 
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