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(BusinessWeek)   When does a $5 toll cost $30? When you drive a rental car   (businessweek.com) divider line 101
    More: Florida  
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12017 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Aug 2014 at 1:46 PM (32 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-08-31 12:11:34 PM  
I bet we're getting those in Massachusetts soon, because the DOT is eliminating cash tolls.
 
2014-08-31 12:13:31 PM  
Holy crap.  No cash tolls?  What are out of state visitors supposed to do about tolls?  Or in-state folks who rarely cross the bridge?  They just have to eat the ticket?
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-08-31 12:23:40 PM  
Benevolent Misanthrope

In Massachusetts the DOT will mail a bill to the registered owner based on the license plate. The toll will be charged at a slightly higher rate, like $3.00 vs. $2.50. My understanding is, the DOT will add on a $50 per toll fine if the bill is not paid promptly, but they haven't been clear about this part.
 
2014-08-31 12:27:24 PM  
I'm kind of glad to be in a state with actual "freeways." There are no tolls here, but there is talk in the legislature of turning some roads into tollways. F*ckers.
 
2014-08-31 12:33:40 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Holy crap.  No cash tolls?  What are out of state visitors supposed to do about tolls?  Or in-state folks who rarely cross the bridge?  They just have to eat the ticket?


Tourists don't vote
 
2014-08-31 12:43:24 PM  
A few years ago I opted to rent a car for a long trip and was able to add the rental to my EZPass transponder. Not a great solution if you do this a lot though. Or use zipcar.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-08-31 12:45:12 PM  
enry

I am told Florida's toll roads do not allow privately owned transponders to be used with rental cars.
 
2014-08-31 12:51:22 PM  

ZAZ: enry

I am told Florida's toll roads do not allow privately owned transponders to be used with rental cars.


Technically you're supposed to register the plate number with the transponder before using it, but in practice there's no way to enforce that as long as the transponder reads correctly, far too many cars pass through for them to actually compare a validly passed transponder with the plate numbers.

The rub is that these systems have been moving from the removable transponders to new sticker-based ones that can't be moved from car to car (well, they can if you're incredibly patient with a razor blade, but you still run the risk of wearing out the adhesive or destroying the sticker in the process).

All of the tolls around here still have manned booths, or at the bare minimum machines that take dollar bills and coins, in addition to the transponder lanes though, I didn't realize that they were actually phasing out cash in some places though.
 
2014-08-31 01:51:22 PM  
I didn't read the article, but this was the deal when we rented a car in San Francisco a couple months ago.  Some of the bridges, including the Golden Gate bridge, didn't accept cash.  To use the device attached to the rental car cost an absurd amount of money, far more than the toll.
 
2014-08-31 01:52:17 PM  
Roxanna Usher of Redwood Valley, Calif., vented her spleen on the entire state.

I've never heard that before. Is that a florida thing?
 
2014-08-31 01:52:52 PM  
Or you can ask the rental company to remove the extra charge.

It helps to have a frequent renter's account with them.
 
2014-08-31 01:54:18 PM  

abhorrent1: Roxanna Usher of Redwood Valley, Calif., vented her spleen on the entire state.

I've never heard that before. Is that a florida thing?


It's a real word, and it appears to be used correctly in this context.

/maybe there is some value to an English degree?
 
2014-08-31 01:56:13 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Holy crap.  No cash tolls?  What are out of state visitors supposed to do about tolls?  Or in-state folks who rarely cross the bridge?  They just have to eat the ticket?


Golden Gate Bridge is now cashless.  We had to eat the ticket when we crossed it in a rental car to get to Muir Woods.  There is a long cashless toll road just outside the Beltway in maryland too (rt 200?).  It's nice an fast because people avoid it because of the tolls, but if tourists are blindly following their GPS they'll be eating the tickets as well.  They way that one is set up is you pass a reader after every exit, and you pay by distance... I don't know if they give you a ticket for each reader, or just one for the whole length.
 
2014-08-31 01:56:23 PM  
So bring your own when you travel. I know they are registered to a car, but the camera isn't going to trigger if it registers the device. I know my Illinois one works in Indiana even though they are different companies. At least you should be able to do this.
 
2014-08-31 01:56:29 PM  
This is getting ridiculous. I drive a truck. I don't own my truck. I need to own 5 trucks to get a transponder for a commercial vehicle.

I am supposed to get reimbursed on tolls but reciepts have to be scanned in by Sunday every week.

Mail in tolls are not refundable because the bill in the mail comes too late and is only a bill, not proof of payment.

I mean I try to avoid Massachusetts as much as possible anyway but it is going to get to the point where tolls everywhere are non-reinbursable under a lot of carriers' contracts. And I doubt they will move quickly to fix the situation. If NY or PA move to this system I'll have to just turn down any loads going into or through those states or Prepass/EZPass will have to change their policies.
 
2014-08-31 01:56:58 PM  

abhorrent1: Roxanna Usher of Redwood Valley, Calif., vented her spleen on the entire state.

I've never heard that before. Is that a florida thing?


http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/vent+spleen
 
2014-08-31 01:57:50 PM  
I'll have to check whether I can use my state's transponder in other states.
 
2014-08-31 01:59:04 PM  
My company uses the pike pass system for the toll roads here in Oklahoma and most recently, they integrated with Texas' TTag system so now when we haul into north Texas, we can use the toll roads around the DFW area but nowhere else in the state.  Unfortunately, I went into Houston and my GPS routed me right down the Sam Houston Parkway and I had already got into the lane and couldn't get back over.  No tollbooths and the signs said no cash so I called up my dispatch told them to be looking for a bill in the mail.
On the other hand, before the Pikepass/TTag integration people where complaining about getting bills from Texas when they went on the toll roads from up to THREE years prior.  And on this last run, I had went from Oklahoma, through Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio then down through W.V., Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas to Texas.  First time I had been in the Northeast and I was concerned about toll roads in Ohio because all I have heard about that part of the country is how high the tolls are, higher if you are driving a big rig; and all my cash was in the bank.

/Only thing I could hope for was if I hit a toll road, drive through the EZ Pass lane and hope I didn't get stopped.  Thankfully we didn't hit one toll on the way out.
 
2014-08-31 01:59:07 PM  
I stuck my ipass transponder on the dash of my rental a couple years ago and apparently it was a spot where the system couldn't read it. I was super happy a month later when I got about $200 worth of bills from Enterprise.
 
2014-08-31 01:59:48 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: I'm kind of glad to be in a state with actual "freeways." There are no tolls here, but there is talk in the legislature of turning some roads into tollways. F*ckers.


Roads cost money. People are unwilling to raise the gas tax from where it currently is (and has been since the mid-90s) so in order to deal with failing infrastructure state, county, and federal DOTs have to come up with solutions that are both fair and effective. Tolled roadways are incredibly fair to do since there are always untolled roads you can use and you only pay for when you actually use them, rather than a flat property tax to cover it regardless of how much you drive.
 
2014-08-31 02:02:06 PM  
If they don't get no tolls, then they don't eat no rolls.
 
2014-08-31 02:06:36 PM  

p the boiler: So bring your own when you travel. I know they are registered to a car, but the camera isn't going to trigger if it registers the device. I know my Illinois one works in Indiana even though they are different companies. At least you should be able to do this.


We don't have a transponder.  There are no tolls in our neck of the woods.
 
2014-08-31 02:10:11 PM  

FizixJunkee: p the boiler: So bring your own when you travel. I know they are registered to a car, but the camera isn't going to trigger if it registers the device. I know my Illinois one works in Indiana even though they are different companies. At least you should be able to do this.

We don't have a transponder.  There are no tolls in our neck of the woods.


Valid point
 
2014-08-31 02:10:13 PM  

p the boiler: So bring your own when you travel. I know they are registered to a car, but the camera isn't going to trigger if it registers the device. I know my Illinois one works in Indiana even though they are different companies. At least you should be able to do this.


Does Florida turnpike around Orlando even take ezpass yet? I know to go cashless they had to but last winter I was there they still only took that single state tag. What are we suppose to do? Keep 50+ of them on our windows like store membership cards?
 
2014-08-31 02:12:52 PM  
I'm awaiting my bill.  Just rented a car for a week and during the trip drove from Miami to Key West.  The rental company warned me of the issue and offered the transponder at $8/day.  They said I'd end up $20 a head if I just paid the fines when they came through the mail.
 
2014-08-31 02:13:32 PM  
In NC, I-77 between Lake Norman and Charlotte, a private company Cintra, will be building toll lanes and collecting the revenues for 50 years. The toll road is 26 miles long and they expect to charge somewhere around $11-$12 a shot.
Cintra Infraestructures, based in Spain, is among the world's largest private developers of roads and other forms of transportation infrastructure. The company specializes in toll roads and has built the Chicago Skyway and the Indiana East-West Toll Road.

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/04/11/4834584/nc-has-apparent-b i dder-for-i-77.html#storylink=cpy
 
2014-08-31 02:17:11 PM  

JollyMagistrate: ecmoRandomNumbers: I'm kind of glad to be in a state with actual "freeways." There are no tolls here, but there is talk in the legislature of turning some roads into tollways. F*ckers.

Roads cost money. People are unwilling to raise the gas tax from where it currently is (and has been since the mid-90s) so in order to deal with failing infrastructure state, county, and federal DOTs have to come up with solutions that are both fair and effective. Tolled roadways are incredibly fair to do since there are always untolled roads you can use and you only pay for when you actually use them, rather than a flat property tax to cover it regardless of how much you drive.


True there has to be something to pay for maintenance.  I have talked with older folks who remember when they proposed turnpikes in Oklahoma.  "the money we collect from tolls will pay for the cost of building the pike, and after it is paid for, we turn it over to the state DOT."  At least in Oklahoma, they have been paying for these turnpikes for over 50 years on some.  We even had a state senator years ago proposing that to bring in extra revenue, convert I35, I40, and US69 (three of the main roadways here) into toll roads.
 
2014-08-31 02:17:46 PM  

Intrepid00: p the boiler: So bring your own when you travel. I know they are registered to a car, but the camera isn't going to trigger if it registers the device. I know my Illinois one works in Indiana even though they are different companies. At least you should be able to do this.

Does Florida turnpike around Orlando even take ezpass yet? I know to go cashless they had to but last winter I was there they still only took that single state tag. What are we suppose to do? Keep 50+ of them on our windows like store membership cards?


FL is a bit of a mess because there are a bunch of different systems, there's SunPass and LeeWay on the Gulf Coast, EZ Pass around the Miami/Ft. Lauderdale/Boca Raton area, and E-Pass around Orlando.  They're all interoperable within the state, but I don't believe that extends for use outside of FL.
 
2014-08-31 02:21:10 PM  
frenchstandup.com
 
2014-08-31 02:21:49 PM  

One Bad Apple: Benevolent Misanthrope: Holy crap.  No cash tolls?  What are out of state visitors supposed to do about tolls?  Or in-state folks who rarely cross the bridge?  They just have to eat the ticket?

Tourists don't vote


$ure they do.
 
2014-08-31 02:22:51 PM  

abhorrent1: Roxanna Usher of Redwood Valley, Calif., vented her spleen on the entire state.

I've never heard that before. Is that a florida thing?


we'll, I've vented my colon in a crowded elevator a few times, but never my spleen.
 
2014-08-31 02:25:19 PM  

JollyMagistrate: ecmoRandomNumbers: I'm kind of glad to be in a state with actual "freeways." There are no tolls here, but there is talk in the legislature of turning some roads into tollways. F*ckers.

Roads cost money. People are unwilling to raise the gas tax from where it currently is (and has been since the mid-90s) so in order to deal with failing infrastructure state, county, and federal DOTs have to come up with solutions that are both fair and effective. Tolled roadways are incredibly fair to do since there are always untolled roads you can use and you only pay for when you actually use them, rather than a flat property tax to cover it regardless of how much you drive.


AZDOT, like probably every other states' DOT, is amazingly and spectacularly inefficient, especially for a non-union state. I think voters should pressure the state to see what they can do before they start tolling highways.
 
2014-08-31 02:26:38 PM  
The outrage here seems to be pointed the wrong way. If you are in a rental car, you still have to pay the toll. In many states and places (including California Bay Area) the tolls are now casless. Either you have a device and get billed for it, or the camera snaps the license plate and sends a bill (not a fine!, a regular bill). The part that the renter in TFA was complaining is that the rental companies add 6-10 USD a day for any rental where you crossed a toll plaza at least once, even if you rented for 3 weeks and never went via toll crossing again. The payment system is largely automated. It should not require any manual input. If it does, it's the rental company fault. Therefore the right thing would be to not have extra charges added at all. Since we live in a real world, the rental company will never provide this service at cost, so as a compromise I would agree for something like $5 for any day where you crossed a toll. But definitely not on the days when I didn't
 
2014-08-31 02:26:59 PM  
I got a Massachusetts EZ-Pass transponder after doing some research and finding that Massachusetts was the only EZ-Pass state that didn't charge either a monthly fee or a deposit for a transponder. I've used it only in Illinois so far.  I'd be tempted to take it with me and use it in a rental car if the need arose.

Note: I live on the west coast.
 
2014-08-31 02:28:26 PM  

abhorrent1: Roxanna Usher of Redwood Valley, Calif., vented her spleen on the entire state.

I've never heard that before. Is that a florida thing?


It's an old, old phrase. Shakespeare uses it or something like it. It refers to the old medical belief in "humours of the blood." The spleen was believed to be the source of, I believe, choler (one of the four humours). An overabundance of choler in your blood would make you irritable. Thus "venting your spleen." It's also why bloodletting was a popular medical treatment; the idea was to create conditions whereby the body could "restore the balance" of the humours.

Thank goodness for proper science.
 
2014-08-31 02:29:38 PM  
Have one or two stations per toll stop allow debit and credit card swipes.  Clearly mark them to say they're for use by out-of-state visitors and folks without transponders.  Have the toll in these cost a little higher than what it would if you have a transponder, so your in-state everyday use residents continue to use the system you want.

Why can't this be a thing? :/
 
2014-08-31 02:32:19 PM  

ByOwlLight: Have one or two stations per toll stop allow debit and credit card swipes.  Clearly mark them to say they're for use by out-of-state visitors and folks without transponders.  Have the toll in these cost a little higher than what it would if you have a transponder, so your in-state everyday use residents continue to use the system you want.

Why can't this be a thing? :/


I saw toll roads in Spain that took credit cards. Just swipe and go.
 
2014-08-31 02:32:28 PM  

FizixJunkee: I didn't read the article, but this was the deal when we rented a car in San Francisco a couple months ago.  Some of the bridges, including the Golden Gate bridge, didn't accept cash.  To use the device attached to the rental car cost an absurd amount of money, far more than the toll.


Or you can call or log on and prepay. Same thing everyone else who doesn't have a tag does. It's a minor inconvenience, but beats dealing with rental car companies and their fees and policies.
 
2014-08-31 02:34:24 PM  

brimed03: abhorrent1: Roxanna Usher of Redwood Valley, Calif., vented her spleen on the entire state.

I've never heard that before. Is that a florida thing?

It's an old, old phrase. Shakespeare uses it or something like it. It refers to the old medical belief in "humours of the blood." The spleen was believed to be the source of, I believe, choler (one of the four humours). An overabundance of choler in your blood would make you irritable. Thus "venting your spleen." It's also why bloodletting was a popular medical treatment; the idea was to create conditions whereby the body could "restore the balance" of the humours.

Thank goodness for proper science.


They thought it was full of black bile.  Splenetic means you're extremely bad-tempered.  Something we say a lot more today than venting one's spleen is "he/she's full of bile" when talking about a particularly unlikeable person.
 
2014-08-31 02:39:23 PM  
Everybody is out to make a buck. Film at 11.
 
2014-08-31 02:45:50 PM  

jimmyjackfunk: JollyMagistrate: ecmoRandomNumbers: I'm kind of glad to be in a state with actual "freeways." There are no tolls here, but there is talk in the legislature of turning some roads into tollways. F*ckers.

Roads cost money. People are unwilling to raise the gas tax from where it currently is (and has been since the mid-90s) so in order to deal with failing infrastructure state, county, and federal DOTs have to come up with solutions that are both fair and effective. Tolled roadways are incredibly fair to do since there are always untolled roads you can use and you only pay for when you actually use them, rather than a flat property tax to cover it regardless of how much you drive.

True there has to be something to pay for maintenance.  I have talked with older folks who remember when they proposed turnpikes in Oklahoma.  "the money we collect from tolls will pay for the cost of building the pike, and after it is paid for, we turn it over to the state DOT."  At least in Oklahoma, they have been paying for these turnpikes for over 50 years on some.  We even had a state senator years ago proposing that to bring in extra revenue, convert I35, I40, and US69 (three of the main roadways here) into toll roads.


Same in NJ when the Garden State Parkway was built. Still charging, and raising the rates too.

OT1H, legislators will never give up a lucrative revenue stream. And they know it, so they're effectively lying at the time the make the promise. And savvy votes know it and go along with the lie. Because we need the road and what are ya gonna do?

OTOH, these roads frequently exceed expected usage rates within a few years or even months. So the roads require far more maintenance than estimated at the time of building and funding. So continuing to charge the users makes sense.

The real problem is this: often, the tolls are *not* put into a dedicated infrastructure maintenance budget. They get put into the state's general revenue and bled off for a host of other, vote-friendly projects while maintenance gets deferred, and deferred, and deferred.

So they raise the toll rates to cover the cost of the deferred maintenance. And the cycle continues.
 
2014-08-31 02:47:13 PM  

ZAZ: enry

I am told Florida's toll roads do not allow privately owned transponders to be used with rental cars.


I've never had a problem doing it. The SunPass account management site has a specific feature to add a rental car to an account. You enter the start and end of the rental period so it knows when to stop charging you.

Even when I haven't put the rental onto my account, I've had no problem. If the transponder reads properly, the account is billed, and the system never even checks the plate. If the transponder doesn't read or isn't present, only then does the system use the camera data (for Toll-by-Plate or violation processing depending on the road).

There's no reason that the rental car companies can't pay the Toll-by-Plate charges and immediately turn around and bill the credit/debit card that the customer's deposit was billed to. That procedure can be automated, and the costs would be trivial.

TuteTibiImperes: FL is a bit of a mess because there are a bunch of different systems, there's SunPass and LeeWay on the Gulf Coast, EZ Pass around the Miami/Ft. Lauderdale/Boca Raton area, and E-Pass around Orlando.  They're all interoperable within the state, but I don't believe that extends for use outside of FL.


No E-ZPass anywhere in Florida; the technology is incompatible. It's SunPass down in South Florida, much to the consternation of the Northeastern snowbirds. LeeWay (Ft. Myers), E-Pass (Orlando), and O-Pass (Osceola County) still exist, but they're 100% interoperable with SunPass, so no one really gives a fark about them anymore.
 
2014-08-31 02:50:44 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: JollyMagistrate: ecmoRandomNumbers: I'm kind of glad to be in a state with actual "freeways." There are no tolls here, but there is talk in the legislature of turning some roads into tollways. F*ckers.

Roads cost money. People are unwilling to raise the gas tax from where it currently is (and has been since the mid-90s) so in order to deal with failing infrastructure state, county, and federal DOTs have to come up with solutions that are both fair and effective. Tolled roadways are incredibly fair to do since there are always untolled roads you can use and you only pay for when you actually use them, rather than a flat property tax to cover it regardless of how much you drive.

AZDOT, like probably every other states' DOT, is amazingly and spectacularly inefficient, especially for a non-union state. I think voters should pressure the state to see what they can do before they start tolling highways.


It's almost as if unions aren't the actual cause of all that is wrong with productivity and accomplishing a given goal.

But that can't be right; management (and management-dictated media) assure me so.
 
2014-08-31 02:51:16 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Holy crap.  No cash tolls?  What are out of state visitors supposed to do about tolls?  Or in-state folks who rarely cross the bridge?  They just have to eat the ticket?


Take your ezpass with you. When you get your rental car, go to the ezpass website and add the rental car plate to the list of plates on your account. Drive away, your tolls will be charged to your account. Don't forget to take your ezpass with you when you return the rental.
 
2014-08-31 02:54:55 PM  

ByOwlLight: Have one or two stations per toll stop allow debit and credit card swipes.  Clearly mark them to say they're for use by out-of-state visitors and folks without transponders.  Have the toll in these cost a little higher than what it would if you have a transponder, so your in-state everyday use residents continue to use the system you want.

Why can't this be a thing? :/


It is in NJ, except that instead of charging more for cash (an idea suggested but shot down by angry criticism) they discount a bit for EZPass. Although the last round of toll hikes probably effectively causes cash users to be charged more.
 
2014-08-31 02:56:42 PM  
EZ-Pass works for a lot of the NE states....but GA and FL have their own, separate transponders that don't work with EZP. If I'm not driving my own car, I try to make sure I bring my transponder...but for anything outside of EZP, you're farked if the state only has electronic collection. I got nailed for that in WA, when the only way to get to the location was by using a toll road. No manual method, and a hefty 'admin fee' from the rental car company.

http://www.ezpassde.com/where_use_ezpass.shtml
 
2014-08-31 02:57:47 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Holy crap.  No cash tolls?  What are out of state visitors supposed to do about tolls?  Or in-state folks who rarely cross the bridge?  They just have to eat the ticket?


The ones in Orange County, CA just went cash-less, however they have been advertising heavily that you can log onto their website and either pre-pay or post-pay (post pay within 48 hours) the tolls online without an extra fine.

https://www.thetollroads.com/ontheroads/rental-vehicles.php
 
2014-08-31 02:57:48 PM  
Illinois will charge your rental car company a fee for missed tolls even if you weren't in Illinois. My wife rented a car, drove to Maryland from Pennsylvania. The rental car company sent one those administrative fees. We proved it wasn't so. The car had been returned long before one could drive from Illinois to Pennsylvania from the time Illinois said the missed toll had occurred.
 
2014-08-31 02:58:16 PM  

brimed03: jimmyjackfunk: JollyMagistrate: ecmoRandomNumbers: I'm kind of glad to be in a state with actual "freeways." There are no tolls here, but there is talk in the legislature of turning some roads into tollways. F*ckers.

Roads cost money. People are unwilling to raise the gas tax from where it currently is (and has been since the mid-90s) so in order to deal with failing infrastructure state, county, and federal DOTs have to come up with solutions that are both fair and effective. Tolled roadways are incredibly fair to do since there are always untolled roads you can use and you only pay for when you actually use them, rather than a flat property tax to cover it regardless of how much you drive.

True there has to be something to pay for maintenance.  I have talked with older folks who remember when they proposed turnpikes in Oklahoma.  "the money we collect from tolls will pay for the cost of building the pike, and after it is paid for, we turn it over to the state DOT."  At least in Oklahoma, they have been paying for these turnpikes for over 50 years on some.  We even had a state senator years ago proposing that to bring in extra revenue, convert I35, I40, and US69 (three of the main roadways here) into toll roads.

Same in NJ when the Garden State Parkway was built. Still charging, and raising the rates too.

OT1H, legislators will never give up a lucrative revenue stream. And they know it, so they're effectively lying at the time the make the promise. And savvy votes know it and go along with the lie. Because we need the road and what are ya gonna do?

OTOH, these roads frequently exceed expected usage rates within a few years or even months. So the roads require far more maintenance than estimated at the time of building and funding. So continuing to charge the users makes sense.

The real problem is this: often, the tolls are *not* put into a dedicated infrastructure maintenance budget. They get put into the state's general revenue and bled off for a host ...


There's a toll road in Toronto that is the most profitable road in the world. As traffic goes up, they raise the toll. That way, the road is never extremely busy and traffic always flows smoothly.
 
2014-08-31 02:58:35 PM  

brimed03: ByOwlLight: Have one or two stations per toll stop allow debit and credit card swipes.  Clearly mark them to say they're for use by out-of-state visitors and folks without transponders.  Have the toll in these cost a little higher than what it would if you have a transponder, so your in-state everyday use residents continue to use the system you want.

Why can't this be a thing? :/

It is in NJ, except that instead of charging more for cash (an idea suggested but shot down by angry criticism) they discount a bit for EZPass. Although the last round of toll hikes probably effectively causes cash users to be charged more.


Oh but I should note that these are cash-only, not debit/credit. I'm not sure you could have unmanned debit/credit lanes. 20% of drivers would drop their cards and have to get out of the car to retrieve them (dangerous, not permitted) and 20% would sideswipe the machines trying to get close enough.
 
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