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(NPR)   Putin demands substantive, meaningful talks in order to give southeastern Ukraine statehood. The Ukraine? The Ukraine is weak. UKRAINE IS GAME TO YOU?   (npr.org) divider line 93
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1904 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Aug 2014 at 5:15 PM (2 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-31 03:47:44 PM
If only Obama could be this effective. It's clear Putin understands leadership.
 
2014-08-31 05:17:55 PM
Obama.ivegotthis.jpg

/not
 
2014-08-31 05:18:37 PM

b2theory: If only Obama could be this effective. It's clear Putin understands leadership.


Pretty good, pretty good.
 
2014-08-31 05:22:51 PM
Send in NATO and call his bluff, if we don't we are going to have to kill this farker in five years.
 
2014-08-31 05:22:51 PM
mapsaboutnothing.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-08-31 05:24:16 PM

b2theory: If only Obama could be this effective. It's clear Putin understands leadership.


Maybe they should send your boy, George W Bush, in as a mediator. You could then stop missing him oh so much and he can could  ust clean this whole mess up, he's always struck me as extremely competent..

/Putin is a terrible leader
 
2014-08-31 05:24:50 PM
If only George W Bush had supported Georgia instead of appeasing Putin.

/Just kidding, he made the right call
//As is Obama.
 
2014-08-31 05:24:57 PM
i.ytimg.com
 
2014-08-31 05:25:58 PM

WTF Indeed: Send in NATO and call his bluff, if we don't we are going to have to kill this farker in five years.


This. I bet ze Germans would secretly love to go for round 2.
 
2014-08-31 05:26:43 PM

XveryYpettyZ: If only George W Bush had supported Georgia instead of appeasing Putin.

/Just kidding, he made the right call
//As is Obama.


The people who miss Bush don't miss him for the things he did right.
 
2014-08-31 05:27:41 PM
While Putin's motivations are quite clear, particularly considering Crimea, I'm not sure his statement is without merit. Ukraine is obviously not a unified nation - Russia's "non-involvement" has been effective precisely because there is strong support for it in some regions. If Ukraine remains a single nation, is there any reason to assume hostilities will cease?

While balkanization is often used in a pejorative sense, is it necessarily a bad thing?
 
2014-08-31 05:28:11 PM
I'm honestly starting to think we'll have to go to war now to prevent a bigger war later.  And that's farking depressing.
 
2014-08-31 05:28:28 PM

WTF Indeed: Send in NATO and call his bluff, if we don't we are going to have to kill this farker in five years.


Brilliant! Why, we could have an expeditionary force ready to invade by late October, early November!
 
2014-08-31 05:29:34 PM
No, Putin.  You don't get a say in this matter.  It's not your farking country.
 
2014-08-31 05:30:47 PM

WTF Indeed: Send in NATO and call his bluff, if we don't we are going to have to kill this farker in five years.


If history is any guide, he'll crawl into a hole in the ground and shoot himself after giving orders for his body to be burned in a ditch.
 
2014-08-31 05:34:28 PM
Putin knows that nobody's going to risk World War 3 over Ukraine, so he's talking like he's already won.
 
2014-08-31 05:38:18 PM

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: WTF Indeed: Send in NATO and call his bluff, if we don't we are going to have to kill this farker in five years.

This. I bet ze Germans would secretly love to go for round 2.


They've already taken Poland with out a shot fired so why not.
 
2014-08-31 05:39:27 PM
You know, you gotta stop them at the beginning. Like they should have stopped Hitler at Munich, they should never let him get away with that, they was just asking for trouble.
 
2014-08-31 05:40:49 PM
All fun and games until NATO gets involved. Then we are all literally dead.
 
2014-08-31 05:41:31 PM

XveryYpettyZ: If only George W Bush had supported Georgia instead of appeasing Putin.

/Just kidding, he made the right call
//As is Obama.


If only Bush hadn't wanted to put a missile defense base in Poland and gone along with Poland entering NATO.

/Not kidding
 
2014-08-31 05:43:22 PM

TheSlothAlive: b2theory: If only Obama could be this effective. It's clear Putin understands leadership.

Maybe they should send your boy, George W Bush, in as a mediator. You could then stop missing him oh so much and he can could  ust clean this whole mess up, he's always struck me as extremely competent..

/Putin is a terrible leader


Libs trolling Libs, wonderful.
 
2014-08-31 05:43:33 PM

JonBuck: Putin knows that nobody's going to risk World War 3 over Ukraine, so he's talking like he's already won.


But in reality he's already lost.  He had ALL of Ukraine under a very friendly leader at the beginning of the year.
 
2014-08-31 05:46:57 PM

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: WTF Indeed: Send in NATO and call his bluff, if we don't we are going to have to kill this farker in five years.

This. I bet ze Germans would secretly love to go for round 2.


1-on-1, conventional warfare, Germany would lose again. And I farking love Germany, so let's not.
 
2014-08-31 05:49:06 PM

BigNumber12: TheSlothAlive: b2theory: If only Obama could be this effective. It's clear Putin understands leadership.

Maybe they should send your boy, George W Bush, in as a mediator. You could then stop missing him oh so much and he can could  ust clean this whole mess up, he's always struck me as extremely competent..

/Putin is a terrible leader

Libs trolling Libs, wonderful.


You're just still wiping away the tears after I had to explain Canada's actions and stance on Ukraine to you. Stop being baby, quit crying and get over it.
 
2014-08-31 05:49:59 PM

jso2897: WTF Indeed: Send in NATO and call his bluff, if we don't we are going to have to kill this farker in five years.

Brilliant! Why, we could have an expeditionary force ready to invade by late October, early November!


Meh, we can at least enforce a no-fly zone and turn the parts of Ukraine that the Russians are using to funnel weapons to the separatists into a no-drive zone. If Putin decides to escalate, he'll have to spend time moving troops to the region too. Ukraine could hold out for a little while against a ground invasion with NATO air support if need be.

The bigger problem is that the US has lost its taste for war (and rightly so) and Europe really doesn't want to upset the status quo when it comes to energy prices. It's going to be hard to sell the idea of airstrikes in Ukraine while we're already conducting airstrikes in Iraq at $7M a day. If we could convince Europe that we had their back on fuel come winter, they might be willing to do the heavy lifting since it's their own back yard.

If we don't do something soon we're going to end up with a much bigger problem down the road. Better we confront Putin now while the conflict is constrained to eastern Ukraine than wait and have to deal with him when eastern Europe is forcibly pushed back into the Warsaw Pact.
 
2014-08-31 05:50:23 PM
I wish I could find the article on Salon.com, but about three weeks into the Ukraine issue someone at Salon wrote an article stating that because Obama is letting Putin do what he wants in Ukraine, that Putin was backing himself into a corner. It's passive diplomacy!

Not saying I think I know what Obama should do but it's laughable that the writer thought letting Putin have his way is a winning strategy.
 
2014-08-31 06:02:12 PM
Here are Putin's choices now:

1)
Keep fighting the Ukrainians. Fight right on Russia's own boarder. Fight Russia's oldest ally. Fight for Crimea (which is now a fair target). Fight to protect the Black Sea Fleet (which is also now a fair target). Lose money at home. Attend many, many funerals of young soldiers. Explain to his people that Russia has invaded Ukraine.

2)
Sue for peace. Any peace.
This is harder than it sounds. Ukraine will want all of Ukraine back, even Crimea. Russia will have to cut some kind of a deal.

You see, it's not up to NATO or the West, or the USA. Ukraine has plenty of soldiers and tanks to last a very long time. And they're pissed. Maybe they won't win. But they also won't stop.
 
2014-08-31 06:02:46 PM
I think it's time to put the hurt on the Ukraine.
 
2014-08-31 06:03:41 PM

You Idiots: Obama.ivegotthis.jpg

/not


What specifically should Obama do?
 
2014-08-31 06:13:35 PM

b2theory: If only Obama could be this effective. It's clear Putin understands leadership.


The right: Putin's a real take charge leader
Obama: I'm taking charge
The right: Emperor Obama the tyrant!!!
 
2014-08-31 06:14:01 PM

tinyarena: Here are Putin's choices now:

1)
Keep fighting the Ukrainians. Fight right on Russia's own boarder. Fight Russia's oldest ally. Fight for Crimea (which is now a fair target). Fight to protect the Black Sea Fleet (which is also now a fair target). Lose money at home. Attend many, many funerals of young soldiers. Explain to his people that Russia has invaded Ukraine.

2)
Sue for peace. Any peace.
This is harder than it sounds. Ukraine will want all of Ukraine back, even Crimea. Russia will have to cut some kind of a deal.

You see, it's not up to NATO or the West, or the USA. Ukraine has plenty of soldiers and tanks to last a very long time. And they're pissed. Maybe they won't win. But they also won't stop.


3) Eat some Polonium when the bill comes due.
 
2014-08-31 06:15:17 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: XveryYpettyZ: If only George W Bush had supported Georgia instead of appeasing Putin.

/Just kidding, he made the right call
//As is Obama.

If only Bush hadn't wanted to put a missile defense base in Poland and gone along with Poland entering NATO.

/Not kidding


Um... Poland entered NATO under Clinton.
 
2014-08-31 06:16:09 PM
"Substantive, meaningful talks should begin immediately ... related to the issues of society's political organization and statehood in southeastern Ukraine the Sudetenland to protect legitimate interests of people living there."

Fixed that for you, Pooty-Poot.
 
2014-08-31 06:16:31 PM

eKonk: While Putin's motivations are quite clear, particularly considering Crimea, I'm not sure his statement is without merit. Ukraine is obviously not a unified nation - Russia's "non-involvement" has been effective precisely because there is strong support for it in some regions. If Ukraine remains a single nation, is there any reason to assume hostilities will cease?

While balkanization is often used in a pejorative sense, is it necessarily a bad thing?


It is when it is driven by foreign powers. Without Russian interference this wouldn't even be a topic for discussion.

When Russia poisoned the candidate that opposed Russian ties they lost any credible claim to anything in Ukraine. This goes back much further than the protests that toppled the government.

I'm surprised that Poland has remained on the sidelines. With what Russia did to their government it should have been war. Putin certainly pushes for it in both rhetoric and deed. I am surprised he hasn't been held accoutable for his threats to nuke mineral survey ships in the Arctic to defend Russian territorial claims to the entire ocean.
 
2014-08-31 06:16:32 PM

tinyarena: Here are Putin's choices now:

1)
Keep fighting the Ukrainians. Fight right on Russia's own boarder. Fight Russia's oldest ally. Fight for Crimea (which is now a fair target). Fight to protect the Black Sea Fleet (which is also now a fair target). Lose money at home. Attend many, many funerals of young soldiers. Explain to his people that Russia has invaded Ukraine.

2)
Sue for peace. Any peace.
This is harder than it sounds. Ukraine will want all of Ukraine back, even Crimea. Russia will have to cut some kind of a deal.

You see, it's not up to NATO or the West, or the USA. Ukraine has plenty of soldiers and tanks to last a very long time. And they're pissed. Maybe they won't win. But they also won't stop.


how long before the Russians go  broke?  and how long before their people start protesting in large numbers for this to stop?
 
2014-08-31 06:16:46 PM

Thrag: You Idiots: Obama.ivegotthis.jpg

/not

What specifically should Obama do?

 
2014-08-31 06:17:50 PM

eKonk: While Putin's motivations are quite clear, particularly considering Crimea, I'm not sure his statement is without merit. Ukraine is obviously not a unified nation - Russia's "non-involvement" has been effective precisely because there is strong support for it in some regions. If Ukraine remains a single nation, is there any reason to assume hostilities will cease?

While balkanization is often used in a pejorative sense, is it necessarily a bad thing?


After being in Croatia and Slovenia...I can say "Balkanization" is a much better thing than anarchy.

Balkanization > Powerful Autocrat who can keep shiat in check (Tito) > Anarchy
 
2014-08-31 06:18:27 PM

TheSlothAlive: b2theory: If only Obama could be this effective. It's clear Putin understands leadership.

Maybe they should send your boy, George W Bush, in as a mediator. You could then stop missing him oh so much and he can could  ust clean this whole mess up, he's always struck me as extremely competent..

/Putin is a terrible leader


Bush is limited by the 22nd Amendment.
 
2014-08-31 06:21:25 PM

tinyarena: Here are Putin's choices now...Attend many, many funerals of young soldiers...


He's hiding the combat deaths from the Russian people.

Russian reporters 'attacked at secret soldier burials'


/ At some point they'll figure it out and raise some hell
// Soon, I hope
 
2014-08-31 06:27:49 PM

eKonk: While Putin's motivations are quite clear, particularly considering Crimea, I'm not sure his statement is without merit. Ukraine is obviously not a unified nation - Russia's "non-involvement" has been effective precisely because there is strong support for it in some regions. If Ukraine remains a single nation, is there any reason to assume hostilities will cease?

While balkanization is often used in a pejorative sense, is it necessarily a bad thing?


Actually, it is. Many people don't support the "pro-Russian Separatists" but they don't have the Russian support to do much about it. I've seen numerous sources that seem to agree that Putin really doesn't know what the hell he's doing right now. He's not the mastermind the American right makes him out to be. And his Army is mostly one year conscripts with a small elite of Paras and Armored. Conscripts generally aren't the best troops to use in an full attack and he certainly doesn't have enough "elite" troops to use them alone. It will be interesting if he tries something on a larger scale.
 
2014-08-31 06:30:04 PM

OgreMagi: No, Putin.  You don't get a say in this matter.  It's not your farking country.


The American invasion of Iraq opened a can of worms that allows other countries to claim military force is okay provided they have a strong national interest.
 
2014-08-31 06:31:05 PM

eKonk: While Putin's motivations are quite clear, particularly considering Crimea, I'm not sure his statement is without merit. Ukraine is obviously not a unified nation - Russia's "non-involvement" has been effective precisely because there is strong support for it in some regions. If Ukraine remains a single nation, is there any reason to assume hostilities will cease?

While balkanization is often used in a pejorative sense, is it necessarily a bad thing?


img.fark.net
umm,, okay, you're either living under a rock, or trolling.

This was almost over last week.
Ukrainian forces had the separatists encircled in two remaining areas. Remember?

Then suddenly,
Russian armored columns started showing up all over the place.
The Russians just let separatists die first is all.
Very economical, the Russians.
 
2014-08-31 06:31:57 PM

XveryYpettyZ: tinfoil-hat maggie: XveryYpettyZ: If only George W Bush had supported Georgia instead of appeasing Putin.

/Just kidding, he made the right call
//As is Obama.

If only Bush hadn't wanted to put a missile defense base in Poland and gone along with Poland entering NATO.

/Not kidding

Um... Poland entered NATO under Clinton.


Oops, forgot still it was wrong.
 
2014-08-31 06:33:46 PM

trotsky: eKonk: While Putin's motivations are quite clear, particularly considering Crimea, I'm not sure his statement is without merit. Ukraine is obviously not a unified nation - Russia's "non-involvement" has been effective precisely because there is strong support for it in some regions. If Ukraine remains a single nation, is there any reason to assume hostilities will cease?

While balkanization is often used in a pejorative sense, is it necessarily a bad thing?

Actually, it is. Many people don't support the "pro-Russian Separatists" but they don't have the Russian support to do much about it. I've seen numerous sources that seem to agree that Putin really doesn't know what the hell he's doing right now. He's not the mastermind the American right makes him out to be. And his Army is mostly one year conscripts with a small elite of Paras and Armored. Conscripts generally aren't the best troops to use in an full attack and he certainly doesn't have enough "elite" troops to use them alone. It will be interesting if he tries something on a larger scale.


Given the history of the Russian military, conscripts are perfect for throwing at these kinds of things.  It's not like the Russian government cares if they get killed.
 
2014-08-31 06:40:26 PM

tinyarena: Here are Putin's choices now:

1)
Keep fighting the Ukrainians. Fight right on Russia's own boarder. Fight Russia's oldest ally. Fight for Crimea (which is now a fair target). Fight to protect the Black Sea Fleet (which is also now a fair target). Lose money at home. Attend many, many funerals of young soldiers. Explain to his people that Russia has invaded Ukraine.

2)
Sue for peace. Any peace.
This is harder than it sounds. Ukraine will want all of Ukraine back, even Crimea. Russia will have to cut some kind of a deal.

You see, it's not up to NATO or the West, or the USA. Ukraine has plenty of soldiers and tanks to last a very long time. And they're pissed. Maybe they won't win. But they also won't stop.


Ukraine is not Russia's oldest ally. Ever since Kiev was leveled by the Mongols and Moscow was made the vassal state to rule the others the two have been anything but allies. Russians and Ukrainians do not like each other. Centuries of beatings didn't give Ukraine Stockholm syndrome; they welcomed the Germans to free them from the Russians. Which made the Russians even angrier after the war and Stalin's mass starvation of Ukrainians, Tartars and other undesireables. Their culture was oppressed as demeaning.

These are old, old wounds. They aren't going to go away. Moscow under any regime has a hard-on for making Ukraine suffer. I'm guessing survivor's guilt as Moscow surrendered and was elevated while Kiev resisted and was destroyed. Kiev Rus managed to dominate the area a long time, making war and trading with the others for centuries. The politics were as toxic as any today but they were part of the same blood. Since the Mongol invasion they have been at each other's throats.
 
2014-08-31 06:54:39 PM

b2theory: TheSlothAlive: b2theory: If only Obama could be this effective. It's clear Putin understands leadership.

Maybe they should send your boy, George W Bush, in as a mediator. You could then stop missing him oh so much and he can could  ust clean this whole mess up, he's always struck me as extremely competent..

/Putin is a terrible leader

Bush is limited by the 22nd Amendment.


Since when does a mediator have to be a 3rd term President, or even a re-elected President? Jimmy Carter was an accomplished mediator post Presidency, I'm pretty sure he didn't get re-elected for a second term to do it.
 
2014-08-31 06:55:01 PM
www.metalsucks.net

Just sayin'
 
2014-08-31 06:55:14 PM

JonBuck: Putin knows that nobody's going to risk World War 3 over Ukraine, so he's talking like he's already won.


Putin won't either.

We should have sent troops there a long time ago.

Almost too late now and Putin knows he can keep conquering nations and all we will do is put sanctions on him.
 
2014-08-31 06:56:08 PM
img.ultimate-guitar.com

Nice tie.
 
2014-08-31 06:57:01 PM

dangelder: Thrag: You Idiots: Obama.ivegotthis.jpg

/not

What specifically should Obama do?


Build missile defence system for one thing.
 
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