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(Washington Post)   You're not going to believe this, but when you allow child care providers to self-certify, lots of kids end up dead   (washingtonpost.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, daycare, Holly Willoughby, day-care providers, state licenses, CPS  
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5548 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Aug 2014 at 3:00 PM (1 year ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-31 11:27:17 AM  
It is difficult to compare Virginia's 43 deaths in unregulated settings over 10 years with fatalities in other states, because of variations in state laws and spotty tracking by state and federal authorities.

That would be an interesting (and important) addition to the story. Trying to exercise a bit of Google-fu, I saw a story where Indiana had 31 child-care deaths from June 2009 to March 2014, but I have no way of comparing regulations. There should be a site that shows rates of child-care/day-care accidents by state -- which sounds like something that should be tracked on the federal side, even if it isn't now.

One thing, though -- When I looked at the childaware.org site mentioned in the article, Virginia didn't seem that bad.
Overall Score: 98/150 (65%)
Rank♦: 14
Score Percent Rank
Oversight 40/50 80% 6
Regulation 58/100 58% 31

Too lazy to crunch numbers for the  other states and compare, though.
 
2014-08-31 12:05:34 PM  
Invisible hand of the market wins here. If your child dies at an unregulated facility, you send your other kids somewhere else, thereby stinging them with a loss in revenue from you. Everybody wins.
 
2014-08-31 02:18:11 PM  

clancifer: Invisible hand of the market wins here. If your child dies at an unregulated facility, you send your other kids somewhere else, thereby stinging them with a loss in revenue from you. Everybody wins.


Yup, and if they kill enough kids then it's going to seriously hurt their bottom line and make them re-think their approach. Totally self-correcting situation.
 
2014-08-31 02:34:44 PM  
You forgot the part that makes it scary:

i.neoseeker.com


OOOOOoooooooooOOOOOOOOoooooooo
 
2014-08-31 02:52:59 PM  
But gubmint bad.
 
2014-08-31 03:02:30 PM  
Which is why we're all excited about the FDA allowing chicken processors to self-regulate!
 
2014-08-31 03:03:26 PM  
Oh come on, it's not like someone left the kids alone in their home "day care" business to run some errands and the whole place burned down.
 
2014-08-31 03:05:29 PM  

clancifer: Invisible hand of the market wins here. If your child dies at an unregulated facility, you send your other kids somewhere else, thereby stinging them with a loss in revenue from you. Everybody wins.


Just came here to post this.  Why won't the libz ever understand how efficient the truly free market is??
 
2014-08-31 03:05:39 PM  

Barfmaker: clancifer: Invisible hand of the market wins here. If your child dies at an unregulated facility, you send your other kids somewhere else, thereby stinging them with a loss in revenue from you. Everybody wins.

Yup, and if they kill enough kids then it's going to seriously hurt their bottom line and make them re-think their approach. Totally self-correcting situation.


Just like the coal industry!
 
2014-08-31 03:08:19 PM  

Snarfangel: It is difficult to compare Virginia's 43 deaths in unregulated settings over 10 years with fatalities in other states, because of variations in state laws and spotty tracking by state and federal authorities.

That would be an interesting (and important) addition to the story. Trying to exercise a bit of Google-fu, I saw a story where Indiana had 31 child-care deaths from June 2009 to March 2014, but I have no way of comparing regulations. There should be a site that shows rates of child-care/day-care accidents by state -- which sounds like something that should be tracked on the federal side, even if it isn't now.

One thing, though -- When I looked at the childaware.org site mentioned in the article, Virginia didn't seem that bad.
Overall Score: 98/150 (65%)
Rank♦: 14
Score Percent Rank
Oversight 40/50 80% 6
Regulation 58/100 58% 31

Too lazy to crunch numbers for the  other states and compare, though.


The important numbers would be deaths per 100,000 children in daycare and hospitalizations per 100,000 but the later is going to be skewed by access.
 
2014-08-31 03:09:45 PM  
Sorry, red states don't do government oversight.
 
2014-08-31 03:12:28 PM  

clancifer: Invisible hand of the market wins here. If your child dies at an unregulated facility, you send your other kids somewhere else, thereby stinging them with a loss in revenue from you. Everybody wins.


See! Them "libbertarianz" wuz right! We don't need no gol-dang reggalations! The FREE MARKET (hallowed be thy name) will take care of it all!
/so what if kids die
//they gave their lives for freedom
///FREEDOM
 
2014-08-31 03:12:36 PM  

mootmah: Sorry, red states don't do government oversight unless it involves gays or drugs

.

FTFY
 
2014-08-31 03:14:48 PM  

charlesmartel11235: Barfmaker: clancifer: Invisible hand of the market wins here. If your child dies at an unregulated facility, you send your other kids somewhere else, thereby stinging them with a loss in revenue from you. Everybody wins.

Yup, and if they kill enough kids then it's going to seriously hurt their bottom line and make them re-think their approach. Totally self-correcting situation.

Just like the coal industry!


Is this the thread where we apply overly simplistic dismissals to libertarian thought and reach the conclusion that anyone who doesn't unfailingly adopt the idea that the government is our benevolent overlord is a heartless fool who hates children?
 
2014-08-31 03:15:56 PM  
Have any Congressmen apologized to these Job Creator Small BusinessHeroes yet for this terrible overreach of government?
 
2014-08-31 03:16:11 PM  
Who needs daycare? Staying home and taking care of children is why you have a wife.

(HATE SPEECH! BAN HIM IMMEDIATELY FOR MAKING JOKES ABOUT WOMEN! WE MUST PROTECT THE DELECT EARS OF WOMEN FROM SUCH HORRORS!)
 
2014-08-31 03:19:55 PM  
I confess to not reading the whole thing but I got irritated after reading meaningless stand alone number without much context. Ok, x kids dies in unregulated day-cares and y in regulated day-cares, and x>y but that's meaningless without having the total number of kids in both kind of day-cares. We also need the numbers for kids that aren't in day-cares. We also need the way they died, surely some would have died no matter where they were and should therefore be excluded from the data.
 
2014-08-31 03:21:33 PM  

anthonycolpo.com

 
2014-08-31 03:22:41 PM  

nickdaisy: Is this the thread where we apply overly simplistic dismissals to libertarian thought


As opposed to the simplistic ideas of libertarians?
 
2014-08-31 03:24:37 PM  
Self-signed certificates kill.
 
2014-08-31 03:24:58 PM  
People place their kids in ghetto daycare because they're broke. The certified daycare costs $5 an hour (or more). If you're only making $8 that obviously obliterates your check.
 
2014-08-31 03:26:06 PM  

ClavellBCMI: mootmah: Sorry, red states don't do government oversight unless it involves gays or drugs.

FTFY


Yep. Thanks.
 
2014-08-31 03:31:20 PM  

nickdaisy: charlesmartel11235: Barfmaker: clancifer: Invisible hand of the market wins here. If your child dies at an unregulated facility, you send your other kids somewhere else, thereby stinging them with a loss in revenue from you. Everybody wins.

Yup, and if they kill enough kids then it's going to seriously hurt their bottom line and make them re-think their approach. Totally self-correcting situation.

Just like the coal industry!

Is this the thread where we apply overly simplistic dismissals to libertarian thought and reach the conclusion that anyone who doesn't unfailingly adopt the idea that the government is our benevolent overlord is a heartless fool who hates children?

 You mean, is this a thread where we notice how libertarianism works in the real world?
Yes. Yes it is.
 
2014-08-31 03:31:39 PM  

Pull the Plug on Grannie: People place their kids in ghetto daycare because they're broke. The certified daycare costs $5 an hour (or more). If you're only making $8 that obviously obliterates your check.


Ghetto daycare is a season pass to the local amusement park.
 
2014-08-31 03:31:56 PM  
They were making a compelling argument for more regulation in Virginia.
Then, I read down far enough to see this:

In Maryland, where caregivers who care for even one unrelated child must be licensed, the overall fatality rate in day-care settings is comparable to Virginia's, according to data compiled by officials at the request of The Post.

So, licensing alone appears to not make a difference.

I think what happens is, you get a license, and that's the last involvement the state has in the whole process, other than collecting the license fee each year.
 
2014-08-31 03:32:02 PM  

talkertopc: I confess to not reading the whole thing but I got irritated after reading meaningless stand alone number without much context. Ok, x kids dies in unregulated day-cares and y in regulated day-cares, and x>y but that's meaningless without having the total number of kids in both kind of day-cares. We also need the numbers for kids that aren't in day-cares. We also need the way they died, surely some would have died no matter where they were and should therefore be excluded from the data.


You and your bizarre hateful libertarian demand for relevant facts.

Stop getting in the way of emotion-driven demands for common-sense relentlessly metastasizing yet unaccountable centralized state power, you selfish monster.
 
2014-08-31 03:33:49 PM  

nickdaisy: Who needs daycare? Staying home and taking care of children is why you have a wife.

(HATE SPEECH! BAN HIM IMMEDIATELY FOR MAKING JOKES ABOUT WOMEN! WE MUST PROTECT THE DELECT EARS OF WOMEN FROM SUCH HORRORS!)


Be delicate when talking about woman's delectable ears.
 
2014-08-31 03:33:54 PM  

ClavellBCMI: mootmah: Sorry, red states don't do government oversight unless it involves gays or drugs.

FTFY


[whynotboth.png]
 
2014-08-31 03:34:52 PM  
How hard are children to keep alive?

/can't read the article.
 
2014-08-31 03:36:06 PM  
Gulper Eel:You and your bizarre hateful libertarian demand for relevant facts.

Stop getting in the way of emotion-driven demands for common-sense relentlessly metastasizing yet unaccountable centralized state power, you selfish monster.


So, wait, is libertarianism now just being suspicious that the federal government might at times be over centralized and powerful? Wouldn't that pretty much include almost everybody? In which case, wouldn't the term be pretty much meaningless?

Except, apparently, in the fevered imagination of libertarians who seem to believe non-libertarians completely trust the government and want it to grow indefinitely in every way imaginable.
 
2014-08-31 03:39:48 PM  

ghare: nickdaisy: charlesmartel11235: Barfmaker: clancifer: Invisible hand of the market wins here. If your child dies at an unregulated facility, you send your other kids somewhere else, thereby stinging them with a loss in revenue from you. Everybody wins.

Yup, and if they kill enough kids then it's going to seriously hurt their bottom line and make them re-think their approach. Totally self-correcting situation.

Just like the coal industry!

Is this the thread where we apply overly simplistic dismissals to libertarian thought and reach the conclusion that anyone who doesn't unfailingly adopt the idea that the government is our benevolent overlord is a heartless fool who hates children?
 You mean, is this a thread where we notice how libertarianism works in the real world?
Yes. Yes it is.


as a pennsylvanian, just yes
 
2014-08-31 03:43:18 PM  

spawn73: How hard are children to keep alive?

/can't read the article.


How often do you pass out drunk with half-full buckets of gasoline placed around the playroom?
 
2014-08-31 03:43:55 PM  
Insufficient metric,  define 'lots'.
 
2014-08-31 03:48:08 PM  
It was only 43 kids. They can make more.
 
2014-08-31 03:48:24 PM  

SBinRR: They were making a compelling argument for more regulation in Virginia.
Then, I read down far enough to see this:

In Maryland, where caregivers who care for even one unrelated child must be licensed, the overall fatality rate in day-care settings is comparable to Virginia's, according to data compiled by officials at the request of The Post.

So, licensing alone appears to not make a difference.

I think what happens is, you get a license, and that's the last involvement the state has in the whole process, other than collecting the license fee each year.


Yep. Nothing about a license keeps you from forgetting a kid in the van, or not checking on a sleeping baby for hours, or losing it and shaking them. I guess you would learn how to put a baby down to sleep, but apparently the training doesn't result in a lower death rate. CPR is last ditch and doing crappy CPR vs. proper CPR probably wont result in a significantly different death rate on the whole.
 
2014-08-31 03:50:05 PM  
They had insurance against this. $100,000 dollars from Nationwide. If they had 6 kids or less. They had more. . The father let it slip before that they had more than 6 kids. The insurance company offered to get them commercial coverage if they were licensed. The dad said he was getting his truck driving job back, and they were going to shed the number of kids.

......

And they didn't. Then the kid dies. Then the parents take the insurance company to court, saying the insurance company knew they had more kids than they were supposed to, and should have done something about it and now the insurance company is totally responsible  to pay 100K and for their defense in court.

Dad sued  them for 6.5 million bucks.

http://www.vawd.uscourts.gov/OPINIONS/WILSON/711CV00524.PDF

You can probably guess what happened in court when they tried to blame it on the insurance company.
img3.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-08-31 03:51:48 PM  
Goddamnit articles like this make me rage so hard.

Only 6 babies a year dying? Sounds like deregulation is working pretty good.
 
2014-08-31 03:55:00 PM  

nijika: clancifer: Invisible hand of the market wins here. If your child dies at an unregulated facility, you send your other kids somewhere else, thereby stinging them with a loss in revenue from you. Everybody wins.

Just came here to post this.  Why won't the libz ever understand how efficient the truly free market is??


You are are displaying the common anti-libertarian logical fallacy of describing current reality like it's an insult.
 
2014-08-31 03:55:34 PM  
OTOH, in an internet connected day that powers almost endless complaining, every single parent that uses the facility effectively regulates that facility.
 
2014-08-31 03:58:13 PM  
Maybe they should just follow the Uber model, that works out well - right?  Just start the app, say you're looking for a sitter while you're shopping at the mall or whatever, and within just a few minutes someone walks up and takes your kids away!

Someone should get on this idea, stat!
 
2014-08-31 04:02:51 PM  
You know who else is self-certified?

cdn.frontpagemag.com
 
2014-08-31 04:05:08 PM  

nickdaisy: Is this the thread where we apply overly simplistic dismissals to libertarian thought and reach the conclusion that anyone who doesn't unfailingly adopt the idea that the government is our benevolent overlord is a heartless fool who hates children


After watching the libertarians do the "exclude the middle" song and dance for decades.

Poor widdle wibbertarian is crying because his entire philosophy is shown to be based upon bogus logic a four-year-old could tear apart.

Your tears, let me wipe them for you.

The argument should never be "is government good or evil" it should be "how much effort do we want to put into good governance?"

The libertarians have shown they don't want to put in any effort at all, so their opinions can be disregarded completely.  Go live in Somalia.
 
2014-08-31 04:05:11 PM  

clancifer: Invisible hand of the market wins here. If your child dies at an unregulated facility, you send your other kids somewhere else, thereby stinging them with a loss in revenue from you. Everybody wins.


Yeah! Not only that, government regulations are a barrier to entry into the market! If I want to turn my broken glass-filled, rusty storage shed into a self-licensed daycare, I should be able to because God wrote it into the Constitution!
 
2014-08-31 04:09:13 PM  

nickdaisy: Is this the thread where we apply overly simplistic dismissals to libertarian thought and reach the conclusion that anyone who doesn't unfailingly adopt the idea that the government is our benevolent overlord is a heartless fool who hates children?


When libertarian thought can't be refuted with 5 minutes of Google research, we'll stop treating it as such.

Don't blame the peanut gallery when your performance is actually terrible.
 
2014-08-31 04:09:32 PM  

TV's Vinnie: You know who else is self-certified?

[cdn.frontpagemag.com image 451x359]


Parents?
i1.ytimg.com
I'd like a license for my son, Eric.
 
2014-08-31 04:17:49 PM  
Not long before we get government regulated babysitters. Next up, government regulated parents. Kids are dying every day in the care of these self regulated parents. It's just nuts how we let anyone have kids.
 
2014-08-31 04:17:54 PM  

grumpyguru: Only 6 babies a year dying? Sounds like deregulation is working pretty good.


Well, there's your question - what's the achievable minimum and how much is the state willing/able to spend to get that number down to the minimum?

A lot of that is going to depend on how much trust there is in the competence of the state government. If I lived in a state that had demonstrated a record of having its shiat together, I'd be a lot more willing to cough up an extra ten bucks a week to cover the regulatory costs, but as it is I live someplace where standard state procedure is "we don't give a fark long as the license fees keep rolling in".

If I'm paying for the oversight, there should be oversight. Apparently this is some sort of lunatic free-market madness, and I should instead just pay up and not ask any questions.

Two child abuse/neglect deaths just this week in licensed and regulated NYC day-cares, btw.
 
2014-08-31 04:18:26 PM  
BATTLE OF THE STRAWMEN
 
2014-08-31 04:21:39 PM  
4-5 per year is a lot of kids dying?

There are apparently thousands of these small day cares are not regulated like the larger ones and only 4-5 kids a year have died?  What is the death rate for the larger, regulated day cares?
 
2014-08-31 04:22:34 PM  
I looked at a lot of the deaths in that infographic and most of them seemed to be caused by SIDS which could be because the caregiver didn't know to not let kids sleep on their faces but could also just be happenstance. Also many were due to illness or homicide which I'm not sure if any amount of training is going to prevent. It seemed like there were a few that could have been easily prevented (child escaping the house and falling into the pool for instance) but, not to be callus, infant deaths in preventable circumstances happen all the time. Understandably it's tragic when it happens to you but unless you want to cocoon you baby in bubble wrap all the time there's always a chance.

Conclusion? This is a crappy article without any context or sense of proportion. It's utterly useless.

/Have my 5mo old child with an unlicensed caregiver.
//Have complete confidence that it's going to be fine.
 
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