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(CNBC)   Human trials of the Ebola vaccine will start next week. Two weeks after the vaccine was used on American victims   ( cnbc.com) divider line
    More: Followup  
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1125 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Aug 2014 at 2:09 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-28 12:26:34 PM  
Monoclonal antibodies (MAB) are extraordinarily dangerous. To be clear, these are genetically engineered human antibodies that are human specific and cannot be effectively tested in animals.

The poster child is TGN1412, a subtype of MABs known as a "super agonist." TGN1412 was administered to 6 volunteer test subjects during its first human trials, each within 30 minutes of the last. By the time the last test subject was being administered the dose - a dose that was 1/500th the tested safe dose in animals. Within the first hours, all of the test subjects had collapsed screaming; one of the subject's head blew up like a hydroecephaletic's. All came near death, all were in the hospital for weeks, and all will have shortened lives with crippled immune systems.

TG1412 proved exceptionally bad for the test subjects, but almost every single FDA approved MAB in use today lists a side effect as "sudden death due to anaphylaxis." They list sudden death as a side effect because people have died, often within hours of administration. There's no real way to know ahead of time - it's a roll of the dice. Take it, there's a real chance you will die.

Just saying - ebola sucks, but the first two people that received this MAB were pretty damn lucky it worked as expected. There was a very real chance the drug would kill them before the ebola.
 
2014-08-28 02:11:04 PM  
My autism kicked up just thinking about it.
 
2014-08-28 02:13:00 PM  
I suppose it would have been better to do nothing for these two consenting adults.
 
2014-08-28 02:14:50 PM  
Is there a point to the headline?
 
2014-08-28 02:14:53 PM  

Elegy: Monoclonal antibodies (MAB) are extraordinarily dangerous. To be clear, these are genetically engineered human antibodies that are human specific and cannot be effectively tested in animals.

The poster child is TGN1412, a subtype of MABs known as a "super agonist." TGN1412 was administered to 6 volunteer test subjects during its first human trials, each within 30 minutes of the last. By the time the last test subject was being administered the dose - a dose that was 1/500th the tested safe dose in animals. Within the first hours, all of the test subjects had collapsed screaming; one of the subject's head blew up like a hydroecephaletic's. All came near death, all were in the hospital for weeks, and all will have shortened lives with crippled immune systems.

TG1412 proved exceptionally bad for the test subjects, but almost every single FDA approved MAB in use today lists a side effect as "sudden death due to anaphylaxis." They list sudden death as a side effect because people have died, often within hours of administration. There's no real way to know ahead of time - it's a roll of the dice. Take it, there's a real chance you will die.

Just saying - ebola sucks, but the first two people that received this MAB were pretty damn lucky it worked as expected. There was a very real chance the drug would kill them before the ebola.


So what you're saying is that either Ebola gets cured or the zombie apocalypse is nigh.  Either way we're in for some fun!
 
2014-08-28 02:16:06 PM  

atomic-age: I suppose it would have been better to do nothing for these two consenting adults.


This.
 
2014-08-28 02:17:36 PM  
NPR reported the other day that one of the therapies used on the Americans (guessing it's different from the one in TFA) was tested on 5 patients, to include an infected physician, last week with two or three of them dying.

That or I missed something in the story. Basically I walked away with the idea that no matter what happens the American government and some American corporation is going to get blamed for something.
 
2014-08-28 02:20:49 PM  
So the two that already received it weren't human?
 
2014-08-28 02:23:29 PM  

Heatseeker: So the two that already received it weren't human?


I think that was the joke.
 
2014-08-28 02:29:56 PM  
The real question is whether the vaccine gives you a better chance of survival than Ebola.  It's like getting a bone marrow transplant for advanced stage leukemia.  Sure, the bone marrow transplant has pretty long odds, but advanced stage leukemia is pretty much a death sentence.
 
2014-08-28 02:30:13 PM  
The treatment used on the two people wasn't a vaccine as far as I know.
 
2014-08-28 02:35:39 PM  

ani23: Is there a point to the headline?


Subby is looking for a controversy that doesn't exist.

If I had ebola, test anything you want on me. What's the worst that can happen?
 
2014-08-28 02:37:32 PM  

Summoner101: The real question is whether the vaccine gives you a better chance of survival than Ebola.  It's like getting a bone marrow transplant for advanced stage leukemia.  Sure, the bone marrow transplant has pretty long odds, but advanced stage leukemia is pretty much a death sentence.

 
2014-08-28 02:38:54 PM  

Elegy: Monoclonal antibodies (MAB) are extraordinarily dangerous. To be clear, these are genetically engineered human antibodies that are human specific and cannot be effectively tested in animals.

The poster child is TGN1412, a subtype of MABs known as a "super agonist." TGN1412 was administered to 6 volunteer test subjects during its first human trials, each within 30 minutes of the last. By the time the last test subject was being administered the dose - a dose that was 1/500th the tested safe dose in animals. Within the first hours, all of the test subjects had collapsed screaming; one of the subject's head blew up like a hydroecephaletic's. All came near death, all were in the hospital for weeks, and all will have shortened lives with crippled immune systems.

TG1412 proved exceptionally bad for the test subjects, but almost every single FDA approved MAB in use today lists a side effect as "sudden death due to anaphylaxis." They list sudden death as a side effect because people have died, often within hours of administration. There's no real way to know ahead of time - it's a roll of the dice. Take it, there's a real chance you will die.

Just saying - ebola sucks, but the first two people that received this MAB were pretty damn lucky it worked as expected. There was a very real chance the drug would kill them before the ebola.


capsulecomputers.com.auView Full Size
 
2014-08-28 02:40:11 PM  

big pig peaches: The treatment used on the two people wasn't a vaccine as far as I know.


It wasn't, but I don't think subby figured out that the article isn't talking about Z-Mapp.
 
2014-08-28 02:45:26 PM  

abhorrent1: ani23: Is there a point to the headline?

Subby is looking for a controversy that doesn't exist.

If I had ebola, test anything you want on me. What's the worst that can happen?


Turning 50% chance of death into a certainty of it?
 
2014-08-28 02:53:38 PM  

knight_on_the_rail: abhorrent1: ani23: Is there a point to the headline?

Subby is looking for a controversy that doesn't exist.

If I had ebola, test anything you want on me. What's the worst that can happen?

Turning 50% chance of death into a certainty of it?


I think I know where you pulled both those numbers from
 
2014-08-28 02:59:48 PM  

Elegy: Monoclonal antibodies (MAB) are extraordinarily dangerous. To be clear, these are genetically engineered human antibodies that are human specific and cannot be effectively tested in animals.

The poster child is TGN1412, a subtype of MABs known as a "super agonist." TGN1412 was administered to 6 volunteer test subjects during its first human trials, each within 30 minutes of the last. By the time the last test subject was being administered the dose - a dose that was 1/500th the tested safe dose in animals. Within the first hours, all of the test subjects had collapsed screaming; one of the subject's head blew up like a hydroecephaletic's. All came near death, all were in the hospital for weeks, and all will have shortened lives with crippled immune systems.

TG1412 proved exceptionally bad for the test subjects, but almost every single FDA approved MAB in use today lists a side effect as "sudden death due to anaphylaxis." They list sudden death as a side effect because people have died, often within hours of administration. There's no real way to know ahead of time - it's a roll of the dice. Take it, there's a real chance you will die.

Just saying - ebola sucks, but the first two people that received this MAB were pretty damn lucky it worked as expected. There was a very real chance the drug would kill them before the ebola.


How do you know they are going to use humanized monoclonal antibodies? I see that you used TFA's mention of a single protein being altered to deduce that they're using humanized antibodies: "Humanized antibodies are from non-human species whose  have been modified". It sounds correct from that simple wiki definition but I don't know enough to say for sure.

Also an example of one small trial where use of a specific humanized monoclonal antibody caused very serious reactions doesn't indicate that all humanized monoclonal antibodies are horribly dangerous. Do you have reason to believe that this new vaccine could also cause cytokine storms?
 
2014-08-28 03:14:45 PM  
back when I really was a drug addict, I got injected with some stuff for a bird flu vaccination trial that I had to sign my life away for.    I got 500 dollars,  which was pretty decent compared to the value I had on my own life.  ah well I got a nice self-depreciating story to tell out of it.
 
2014-08-28 03:28:31 PM  

crackwhore: back when I really was a drug addict, I got injected with some stuff for a bird flu vaccination trial that I had to sign my life away for.    I got 500 dollars,  which was pretty decent compared to the value I had on my own life.  ah well I got a nice self-depreciating story to tell out of it.


Were you addicted to experimental drugs?
 
2014-08-28 03:45:33 PM  

ani23: knight_on_the_rail: abhorrent1: ani23: Is there a point to the headline?

Subby is looking for a controversy that doesn't exist.

If I had ebola, test anything you want on me. What's the worst that can happen?

Turning 50% chance of death into a certainty of it?

I think I know where you pulled both those numbers from


From someone saying, "test anything you want on me. what's the worst that can happen?" I'm pretty sure that would be death. Why? What were you thinking?
 
2014-08-28 03:58:09 PM  

Heatseeker: So the two that already received it weren't human?


The two Americans survived Ebola, but they didn't survive the Gom Jabbar.
 
2014-08-28 03:59:11 PM  

crackwhore: back when I really was a drug addict, I got injected with some stuff for a bird flu vaccination trial that I had to sign my life away for.    I got 500 dollars,  which was pretty decent compared to the value I had on my own life.  ah well I got a nice self-depreciating story to tell out of it.


Resist the urge to fly south for the winter
 
2014-08-28 04:08:00 PM  

abhorrent1: If I had ebola, test anything you want on me. What's the worst that can happen?


you come away with lupus?
 
2014-08-28 05:05:03 PM  

crackwhore: back when I really was a drug addict, I got injected with some stuff for a bird flu vaccination trial that I had to sign my life away for.    I got 500 dollars,  which was pretty decent compared to the value I had on my own life.  ah well I got a nice self-depreciating story to tell out of it.


I hope you value yourself more nowadays. I'm glad you're around to be able to tell your story.
 
2014-08-28 05:07:48 PM  
"From someone saying"... where does this person you've quoted live?
 
2014-08-28 05:31:46 PM  

evilmousse: "From someone saying"... where does this person you've quoted live?


Is this directed at me?
 
2014-08-28 05:36:24 PM  

patrick767: How do you know they are going to use humanized monoclonal antibodies? I see that you used TFA's mention of a single protein being altered to deduce that they're using humanized antibodies: "Humanized antibodies are from non-human species whose have been modified". It sounds correct from that simple wiki definition but I don't know enough to say for sure.


Because they are? It's a mouse antibody, genetically modified to be a human antibody, grown in a tobacco plant.

Also an example of one small trial where use of a specific humanized monoclonal antibody caused very serious reactions doesn't indicate that all humanized monoclonal antibodies are horribly dangerous. Do you have reason to believe that this new vaccine could also cause cytokine storm?

I never said anything about this new MAB causing a cytokine storm. I said MABs are an exceptionally dangerous class of drugs, whose side effects often include "sudden death due to anaphylaxis after administration."

And this is true.

I gave TGN1412 as an example because it is famous in certain circles, as a human trial of a MAB that went spectacularly wrong. Which I thought I made clear in the second paragraph.
 
2014-08-28 05:41:06 PM  

knight_on_the_rail: evilmousse: "From someone saying"... where does this person you've quoted live?

Is this directed at me?


I had to ask because I quoted abhorrent1 and it seems like a pretty ridiculous thing to ask. It's been quoted a couple of times in the thread including above my post. Maybe he lives on fark, I don't know. Do you live in a place where people fear reading as much as Ebola?
 
2014-08-28 07:23:32 PM  
You need a bronze plan.
 
2014-08-28 07:29:57 PM  

BalugaJoe: You need a bronze plan.


img4.wikia.nocookie.netView Full Size

always remember to never forget the bronze...skaggg
 
2014-08-28 11:58:16 PM  

big pig peaches: The treatment used on the two people wasn't a vaccine as far as I know.


It wasn't. If you wait until after you're already ill to give a vaccine, it will be totally useless - they're purely preventative. I don't know the details of the treatment used in those folks, but it certainly wasn't a vaccine.
 
2014-08-29 12:12:44 AM  
Just wait till one single African patient has a bad reaction to this. Then story will go from 'evil America is withholding the 100% effective cure because they hate Africa' to 'evil America is poisoning the so-called 'cure' they are giving us on purpose because they hate Africa! Don't be fooled, everybody stop taking it and go back to the witch doctor!'

A few people in Africa will say something about science and education and they will get shouted down.

All of this will be lost on the derp states back in America, who will point and laugh at the Africans and then vote to cut science and education spending without any sense of self-awareness.
 
2014-08-29 03:28:00 AM  

Elegy: patrick767: How do you know they are going to use humanized monoclonal antibodies? I see that you used TFA's mention of a single protein being altered to deduce that they're using humanized antibodies: "Humanized antibodies are from non-human species whose have been modified". It sounds correct from that simple wiki definition but I don't know enough to say for sure.

Because they are? It's a mouse antibody, genetically modified to be a human antibody, grown in a tobacco plant.

Also an example of one small trial where use of a specific humanized monoclonal antibody caused very serious reactions doesn't indicate that all humanized monoclonal antibodies are horribly dangerous. Do you have reason to believe that this new vaccine could also cause cytokine storm?

I never said anything about this new MAB causing a cytokine storm. I said MABs are an exceptionally dangerous class of drugs, whose side effects often include "sudden death due to anaphylaxis after administration."

And this is true.

I gave TGN1412 as an example because it is famous in certain circles, as a human trial of a MAB that went spectacularly wrong. Which I thought I made clear in the second paragraph.


Uh. I think the two of you are talking at cross-purposes here. The subby confused the vaccine to be tested with the Z-Mapp therapeutic monoclonal antibodies. Then, I guess  Elegy simply focused on one of the subtexts of the subby's headline (that there is self-interest or idiocy involved in testing something after it has already been successfully used) to give a specific example as to why experimental drugs can be extremely dangerous and that a lot of ethical issues are entangled in the decision to release them for human use. Patrick767 then interpreted the post as suggesting that the vaccine is in the form of a humanized monoclonal antibody and disputed that.

Anyway, it seems like both of you are fairly knowledgeable about this topic, so just sync up a bit.

And in any case, vaccines and monoclonal antibodies should be two mutually exclusive categories. Also, the article clearly mentions an adenovirus-vectored vaccine carrying an antigenic Ebola protein (most likely the glycoprotein).
 
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