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(Wired)   ♫ Axisymmetric ventilated supercavitations, makes your sub go super fast but watch out for cetaceans ♫   (wired.com) divider line 91
    More: Repeat, Commercial aviation  
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2137 clicks; posted to Geek » on 28 Aug 2014 at 8:09 AM (33 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



91 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-08-28 07:17:51 AM  
Bravo, subby.
 
2014-08-28 08:12:32 AM  
Technically, in order for the subs to be "supersonic", they'd have to be travelling at about 3,400 miles an hour.  That's because the speed of sound in seawater is about 4.7 times higher than it is in the air.

Also, I imagine that it would be noisy as fark.  Everything in the ocean is going to know where you're at.
 
2014-08-28 08:15:35 AM  

dittybopper: Technically, in order for the subs to be "supersonic", they'd have to be travelling at about 3,400 miles an hour.  That's because the speed of sound in seawater is about 4.7 times higher than it is in the air.

Also, I imagine that it would be noisy as fark.  Everything in the ocean is going to know where you're at.


Aquaman would go deaf
 
2014-08-28 08:16:15 AM  
Again?
 
2014-08-28 08:17:28 AM  

dittybopper: Technically, in order for the subs to be "supersonic", they'd have to be travelling at about 3,400 miles an hour.  That's because the speed of sound in seawater is about 4.7 times higher than it is in the air.

Also, I imagine that it would be noisy as fark.  Everything in the ocean is going to know where you're at.


If you could go that fast underwater, stealth is not an issue. Deflector shields, on the other hand...
 
2014-08-28 08:20:05 AM  

BAMFinator: Again?


The story so nice, they greened it thrice.
 
2014-08-28 08:39:19 AM  
I'm quite good at genetics as a subset of biology, Because I am an expert which I know is a tautology
 
2014-08-28 08:48:02 AM  
www.moviestillsdb.com

Amateurs.
 
2014-08-28 08:48:43 AM  

Unobtanium: If you could go that fast underwater, stealth is not an issue. Deflector shields, on the other hand...


Hell, use a small charge to collapse the bubble at 3000+ mph...

You wouldn't be able to find a piece of wreckage bigger than a Q-Tip.
 
2014-08-28 08:49:04 AM  

moistD: dittybopper: Technically, in order for the subs to be "supersonic", they'd have to be travelling at about 3,400 miles an hour.  That's because the speed of sound in seawater is about 4.7 times higher than it is in the air.

Also, I imagine that it would be noisy as fark.  Everything in the ocean is going to know where you're at.

Aquaman would go deaf


i.imgur.com
 
2014-08-28 08:49:31 AM  
Oh, for God's sake, subby, you didn't have to run up the score that hard.

I don't care how many times it's been greened before. Everything needs to make way for headlines like this.
 
2014-08-28 08:52:43 AM  
*golfclap*
 
2014-08-28 08:59:54 AM  
As far as the speeds mentioned in TFA in general goes, no thanks. On small, and I do mean small, like 1/4th of a degree or less small, change in bubble and you would either launch yourself a hundred feet or more into the air like a porpoise (and go smashy-smashy when you fall back to the surface) or go too deep (and go crushy-chrushy), both in a matter of a second or less.

The devil is in the details indeed.
 
2014-08-28 09:01:14 AM  
Hitting a whale at 750mph would be messy.
 
2014-08-28 09:01:28 AM  
Captain, we're cavitating, he can hear us!
 
2014-08-28 09:02:03 AM  

stuhayes2010: Hitting a whale at 750mph would be messy.


Hell, hitting a sizable grouper at 750mph would be messy.
 
2014-08-28 09:05:17 AM  

dittybopper: Technically, in order for the subs to be "supersonic", they'd have to be travelling at about 3,400 miles an hour.  That's because the speed of sound in seawater is about 4.7 times higher than it is in the air.

Also, I imagine that it would be noisy as fark.  Everything in the ocean is going to know where you're at.


This and that
 
2014-08-28 09:16:24 AM  
How did Mary Poppins get underwater?
 
2014-08-28 09:23:22 AM  
Came here to say what's been covered (speed of sound in water, and hitting creatures).

Headline sucks because I can't sing, so I have no idea wtf.
 
2014-08-28 09:26:26 AM  
That is one damned fine headline, subby.
 
2014-08-28 09:35:09 AM  

waterrockets: Came here to say what's been covered (speed of sound in water, and hitting creatures).

Headline sucks because I can't sing, so I have no idea wtf.


Hint: Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
 
2014-08-28 09:35:21 AM  
Well Done Subby!
 
2014-08-28 09:37:52 AM  
+1

/someone plz provide a link to the original jingle, it's deep in my brain but I can't quite pin it down
 
2014-08-28 09:46:46 AM  
Eighteenthing or whatever applause for subby. You should frame that one, dude/lady.
 
2014-08-28 09:49:07 AM  

Zombalupagus: +1

/someone plz provide a link to the original jingle, it's deep in my brain but I can't quite pin it down


It's Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious from Mary Poppins.
 
2014-08-28 09:49:35 AM  

stuhayes2010: stuhayes2010: Hitting a whale at 750mph would be messy.

Hell, hitting a sizable grouper at 750mph would be messy.


Years ago, in one of the Grand Teton National Park Visitor's Centers, there was a short, grainy video clip (that you had to push a button to see) of a semi hitting a buffalo. I'd imagine it would be kinda like that.
 
2014-08-28 09:52:10 AM  

stuhayes2010: Hitting a whale at 750mph would be messy.


"Oh no, not again"
 
2014-08-28 09:56:24 AM  
...Not to mention the problem of finding anything if you're in a supersonic submarine - targets, underwater seamounts, mines, little things like that.

/a solution in search of a problem
 
2014-08-28 09:59:35 AM  
Awesome headline.
 
2014-08-28 10:01:28 AM  
Someone in here has to know about this --

When I first heard about cavitation way back in Engineering school, it was in the context of certain pumps where the collapsing bubbles caused localized pressure that was high enough to cause materials to erode, sort of a mechanically-induced corrosion. (And since then I've cringed every time I hear people use "cavitation" to mean "running a pump dry", but that's maybe another thread...)

Anyway, on submarines and submarine screws, does cavitation damage things?
 
2014-08-28 10:02:48 AM  
 
2014-08-28 10:07:50 AM  
Chinese researchers say they are developing technology that would allow submarines to travel more than 750 mph

If they do succeed, and they choose to keep this secret and militarize it, this could tip the scales of naval control to China's favor. This could be highly problematic for the west, given that naval power dictates shipping lanes (yes, even today).
 
2014-08-28 10:10:08 AM  

phaseolus: Someone in here has to know about this --

When I first heard about cavitation way back in Engineering school, it was in the context of certain pumps where the collapsing bubbles caused localized pressure that was high enough to cause materials to erode, sort of a mechanically-induced corrosion. (And since then I've cringed every time I hear people use "cavitation" to mean "running a pump dry", but that's maybe another thread...)

Anyway, on submarines and submarine screws, does cavitation damage things?


It does when it causes the submarine to make noise, it is detected by enemy sonar, and sunk by an enemy torpedo. Submarine designers endeavor to reduce cavitation because it is noisy, not because of wear. They probably do preventative maintenance on subs frequently enough due to salt water corrosion that cavitation erosion is not a factor for parts failure.
 
2014-08-28 10:11:41 AM  

phaseolus: Someone in here has to know about this --

When I first heard about cavitation way back in Engineering school, it was in the context of certain pumps where the collapsing bubbles caused localized pressure that was high enough to cause materials to erode, sort of a mechanically-induced corrosion. (And since then I've cringed every time I hear people use "cavitation" to mean "running a pump dry", but that's maybe another thread...)

Anyway, on submarines and submarine screws, does cavitation damage things?



Yes, microcavitation does damage metal surfaces.
furthermore macro cavitation can cause an air bubble to form around the propeller making it useless.
Cavitation causes water to boil - not from heat but from low pressure, bubbles are released, imagine following a sub because of the trail of bubbles it creates like a torpedo in a bad WWII movie.
 
2014-08-28 10:21:00 AM  
This is what happens when you hit something at "regular" speeds:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_San_Francisco_(SSN-711)#mediaview er/File:US_Navy_050127-N-4658L-030_The_Los_Angeles- class_fast-attack_submarine_USS_San_Francisco_(SSN_711)_in_dry_dock_to _assess_damage_sustained_after_running_aground_approximately_350_miles _south_of_Guam_Jan._8,_2005.jpg
 
2014-08-28 10:21:24 AM  
Chinese researchers say a lot of bullshiat.  I'm all for the research, but let's not pretend this is going to work.
 
2014-08-28 10:21:33 AM  
May I add my kudos to subster.
Nice.

/not that I understood the sciencey stuff
 
2014-08-28 10:21:43 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Chinese researchers say they are developing technology that would allow submarines to travel more than 750 mph

If they do succeed, and they choose to keep this secret and militarize it, this could tip the scales of naval control to China's favor. This could be highly problematic for the west, given that naval power dictates shipping lanes (yes, even today).


I believe this has been addressed in another thread recently.
 
2014-08-28 10:27:37 AM  

simusid: This is what happens when you hit something at "regular" speeds:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_San_Francisco_(SSN-711)#mediaview er/File:US_Navy_050127-N-4658L-030_The_Los_Angeles- class_fast-attack_submarine_USS_San_Francisco_(SSN_711)_in_dry_dock_to _assess_damage_sustained_after_running_aground_approximately_350_miles _south_of_Guam_Jan._8,_2005.jpg


The published top speed of a LA class submarine is 29MPH.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-08-28 10:33:47 AM  
First of all, your air bubble around the ship is a fine idea but I don't think the guys manning the oars are up to  rowing that fast.

Second, regarding the Los Angeles-class sub in the drydock picture, I'll bet the sonar man's ears look a lot like the front of that ship.
 
2014-08-28 10:36:04 AM  

phaseolus: Anyway, on submarines and submarine screws, does cavitation damage things?


The screws get damaged because the cavitation erodes the trailing edges where it forms. This does two things, first of all it causes even more cavitation (which means noise) and secondly, if not addressed, it reduces the efficiency of the screw itself, slowing down the submarine.

The whole Toshiba scandal from the mid-1980's when they sold the Soviets the technology to mill precision screws was about how all of a sudden their boats became substantially quieter. It doesn't take much to make a big difference.
 
2014-08-28 10:41:29 AM  
When we discussed this same thing a few days ago, there were a number of problems mentioned with this:

1) Fuel. To get anything going that fast you need a mega assload of fuel. You're talking a massive ship just to hold it all. Which means more fuel needed.
2) Stealth. Sure, you'll get somewhere nice and fast, but everybody will already know where you're headed. At that point you just need to get something to that place first (which, admittedly, isn't that easy).
3) Perfection. If anything goes wrong with the supercavitation system the sub will be annihilated. Crushed like a beer can or ground into powder.
4) Navigation. You can't raise any masts to get a nav fix... sticking anything through the bubble will result in immediate destruction. You can't get GPS, GLONASS, or any other signal through the water at any real depth. Even being off a tiny bit when you cross the Pacific can leave you running into a seamount or island, running it up on the beach, or even just being a couple hundred miles from where you'd intended to be. So at best you're off course by a not insignificant distance and everybody knows where you are. At worst you're dead and now it's somebody else's problem.
5) The point. OK, you crossed the ocean and by some miracle you got where you wanted to be. Now what? Everybody knows where you are and where you came from. Did you do that just to launch cruise missiles? If they're nuclear, your homeland is toast. If they're conventional, big whoop- you've done nothing that a stealthy and slow sub couldn't have done... AND the air defenses now know something's coming.

About the only use I could see for that kind of thing would be if you needed to get away from a datum really quickly... but you'd just end up making another in your flight from your enemy. All in an enormous ship that just burned through most of its fuel. The Russians have only bothered with this technology for torpedoes, and even then they aren't the most reliable things on the earth.
 
2014-08-28 10:47:25 AM  

AtlanticCoast63: ...Not to mention the problem of finding anything if you're in a supersonic submarine - targets, underwater seamounts, mines, little things like that.


At that speed, they could run right over my daughter's stereo and not hear it.
 
2014-08-28 10:48:27 AM  
Everyone will know exactly where you are from the enormous wake.
 
2014-08-28 10:50:15 AM  

BAMFinator: Again?


The Space Shuttle generated two sonic booms. The headline shock characteristics of this craft have yet to be determined.
 
2014-08-28 10:51:52 AM  

dittybopper: Also, I imagine that it would be noisy as fark.  Everything in the ocean is going to know where you're at.


Then they should know to get out of the way.

/Loud Pipes Supercavitating Bubbles Save Lives
 
2014-08-28 10:53:29 AM  
Isn't the primary strategic usefulness of a submarine stealth? And this eliminates that. Missiles and/or aircraft can travel a hell of a lot faster than 750 mph.
 
2014-08-28 10:57:33 AM  
The proper use for this technology is undersea railroads. 90 minutes from New York to Paris? There'd be more leisure for artists everywhere.
 
2014-08-28 11:02:14 AM  

PunkTiger: waterrockets: Came here to say what's been covered (speed of sound in water, and hitting creatures).

Headline sucks because I can't sing, so I have no idea wtf.

Hint: Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious


Or Tim Horton's "Special orders don't upset us" jingle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu9gqVeg7N8
 
2014-08-28 11:10:06 AM  

theorellior: The proper use for this technology is undersea railroads. 90 minutes from New York to Paris? There'd be more leisure for artists everywhere.


While the engineering geek in me says "Yes, of course, make this happen", the practical part of me cannot fathom that this type of transport would be more energy efficient than air travel on a large scale, on a per passenger basis.
 
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