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(Pew Research)   Pew study finds that while libertarianism may be gaining public support, few Americans actually have a clear sense of what "libertarian" means   (pewresearch.org ) divider line
    More: Obvious  
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1785 clicks; posted to Politics » on 25 Aug 2014 at 2:16 PM (1 year ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-25 11:48:07 AM  
Mainly it's progtards that can't figure it out, but fundietards are also confused, but it's actually quite simple:

1) Stop trying to enforce your morality onto others via law/regulation

2) Somalia is anarchy, not a "Libertarian Paradise" - people that can't tell the difference are generally indoctrinated fools.

3) Your close relationships with Wall Street and the Unions is in dire need of a divorce

4) Government in general is a problem.  The less of it you can get by with, the better.
 
2014-08-25 11:54:43 AM  
The Tea Party Libertarian seems to be a run of the mill Anarchist. Except for their benefits check, of course.
 
2014-08-25 12:02:42 PM  
I'm actually surprised more than half of libertarians could define "Libertarian" correctly, but not so surprised that they don't actually hold policy views consistent with that definition.
 
2014-08-25 12:03:22 PM  
People like the idea of liberty. Free to ingest what you want, sleep with who you want, marry who you want. That'll get some people on board.

Up until they investigate the economics behind the -ism and realize they're a total f*cking fraud. Some choose to ignore this and stick around, passionately defending supply-side faith-based economics. Others don't.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-08-25 12:03:30 PM  
Libertarianism is Anarchy for people who don't like the word Anarchy.  Unless you are an uneducated fool.

Basically the less government you have, the closer you get to Somalia.
 
2014-08-25 12:05:55 PM  

LordZorch: Mainly it's progtards that can't figure it out, but fundietards are also confused, but it's actually quite simple:

1) Stop trying to enforce your morality onto others via law/regulation
the second Government stops protecting minorities, women, the disabled or the vulnerable, is the second they are completed farked.

2) Somalia is anarchy, not a "Libertarian Paradise" - people that can't tell the difference are generally indoctrinated fools.
It has a anarchy resulting from a lack of strong government.  Here is my question to you though, provide me an example of a prosperous Libertarian state, currently or at any time in history.

3) Your close relationships with Wall Street and the Unions is in dire need of a divorce

AmericanLibertarianism movement today is simply thinly disguised corporatism.

4) Government in general is a problem.  The less of it you can get by with, the better.

Government good/bad is a naive lense to view the world through.  Government is government.  It is a tool for a job, just as the free market is another tool.  You pick the right tool for the job.  The free market is a shiatty tool for somethings and Government is a shiatty tool for other things.  The wisdom is knowing the difference not in proclaiming one to be better than the other.
 
2014-08-25 12:08:58 PM  

LordZorch: Mainly it's progtards that can't figure it out, but fundietards are also confused, but it's actually quite simple:


Man, that is simple.
 
2014-08-25 12:09:00 PM  

LordZorch: Mainly it's progtards that can't figure it out, but fundietards are also confused, but it's actually quite simple:

1) Stop trying to enforce your morality onto others via law/regulation

2) Somalia is anarchy, not a "Libertarian Paradise" - people that can't tell the difference are generally indoctrinated fools.

3) Your close relationships with Wall Street and the Unions is in dire need of a divorce

4) Government in general is a problem.  The less of it you can get by with, the better.


Is there a framework for how to manage public goods in your definition of libertarianism, or otherwise deal with perverse individual incentives that harm the public?
 
2014-08-25 12:15:37 PM  

Arkanaut: LordZorch: Mainly it's progtards that can't figure it out, but fundietards are also confused, but it's actually quite simple:

1) Stop trying to enforce your morality onto others via law/regulation

2) Somalia is anarchy, not a "Libertarian Paradise" - people that can't tell the difference are generally indoctrinated fools.

3) Your close relationships with Wall Street and the Unions is in dire need of a divorce

4) Government in general is a problem.  The less of it you can get by with, the better.

Is there a framework for how to manage public goods in your definition of libertarianism, or otherwise deal with perverse individual incentives that harm the public?


The other inherently flawed aspect of Libertarianism is that it typically requires you to know your starting position ahead of time before opting in.  Sure if you know ahead of time if you are black/white, able-bodied/disabled, employed/unemployed, educated/uneducated.   It is really a fake philosophy at least in terms of justice/fairness.  John Rawls should be mandatory reading for so-called Libertarians.
 
2014-08-25 12:15:55 PM  
Most Libertarians are using a vision that hopes to Hells to be inside the walls, when everything falls apart. It's less about freedom, than NeoFeudalism with a corporate nobility to impose standards, instead of a government, but it's still a class based system, that relies on others to support it. Except that they can smoke weed while they grind away for their lords. It's not really about freedom, save the freedom to impose their will on others and without any of that trivialized guilt. It's less anarchist, than NeoFeudalist, but without a blooded gentry calling the shots, and most will apologize and defend the right to have a boot on their neck, so long as it's not a Federal or State boot.

lh6.googleusercontent.com
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-08-25 12:16:55 PM  
That 11% is comparable to the number of people who supported marijuana legalization 20 years ago.

The poll suffers from the 1984 vs. Somalia dichotomy. Either we're ruled with an iron fist or we have complete anarchy except that murder is mandatory.
 
2014-08-25 12:20:38 PM  

LordZorch: 4) Government in general is a problem.  The less of it you can get by with, the better.


That's why no one ever whines when the feds try to cut spending
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-08-25 12:24:40 PM  
According to the poll results, 57% of responses correctly identified the term libertarian. Self-described libertarians were more likely than others to correctly identify the term, but a majority of both groups did.
 
2014-08-25 12:27:51 PM  
True Libertarianism does not limit itself to the regulatory oversight of "dictionaries" and "definitions." True Libertarianism recognizes that a word's meaning is best defined within the marketplace of ideas itself.
 
2014-08-25 12:28:43 PM  
Libertarianism is the latest club you want to be in, because you're too good and unique for all those other clubs. You go, girls.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-08-25 12:29:51 PM  

ZAZ: That 11% is comparable to the number of people who supported marijuana legalization 20 years ago.

The poll suffers from the 1984 vs. Somalia dichotomy. Either we're ruled with an iron fist or we have complete anarchy except that murder is mandatory.


Defining libertarians as people who are so out of touch with reality that they think we are ruled with an "iron fist" is pretty accurate.
 
2014-08-25 12:30:36 PM  
Libertarianism - A condition in which secondary consequences or externalities do not exist to the observe unless they directly benefit from them

It's like a reverse NIMBY, only cut the services I don't need or use, preferably in areas with people I don't identify with do to social and cultural barriers
 
2014-08-25 12:31:04 PM  

LordZorch: 2) Somalia is anarchy, not a "Libertarian Paradise" - people that can't tell the difference are generally indoctrinated fools.


When knowledgeable people discuss Somalia and libertarianism they're usually referring to Xeer, the traditional ethnic Somali legal system that allows them to work things out without a central government. It isn't "pure" libertarianism, but it's conceptually related.

Seems like you'd know that if you weren't the sort of idiot you're complaining about.
 
2014-08-25 12:31:49 PM  
Libertarianism in it simplest sense is a person who benefits from living in a society but doesn't want to share.  In other words, an asshole.
 
2014-08-25 12:32:32 PM  

zedster: Libertarianism - A condition in which secondary consequences or externalities do not exist to the observe unless they directly benefit from them

It's like a reverse NIMBY, only cut the services I don't need or use, preferably in areas with people I don't identify with do to social and cultural barriers


So basically it means being a dick.
 
2014-08-25 12:33:37 PM  

edmo: The Tea Party Libertarian seems to be a run of the mill Anarchist. Except for their benefits check, of course.


Give me a Hoveround big enough and a place to charge it, and I will move the world.

--The Tea Party
 
2014-08-25 12:34:13 PM  
It means you're a Republican who is too stupid to lie about your insane greed.
 
2014-08-25 12:50:25 PM  
static.comicvine.com
 
2014-08-25 01:01:06 PM  

LordZorch: Government in general is a problem. The less of it you can get by with, the better.


Yeah. YMMV, but I like knowing that my milk and eggs and meat have received FDA inspections before putting them in my face.

I am also pretty fond of regulations that keep auto emissions from pumping lead into every aspect of our environment.

And knowing I can go into any town in any state of the union and not have to pass a "paper bag" test in order to eat or sleep there.

Thanks, but you can go found your libertarian paradise, whatever the hell it is, and I will take America as is.
 
2014-08-25 01:01:10 PM  
If you think the government has a vested interest in labor laws, or safety regulation, or environmental regulation, or health codes, or building codes, or business licensing, or public infrastructure, then you are not Libertarian.

Libertarianism is the concept that government is there to protect people from physical coercion or harm, and to enforce contracts. Everything else is not the government's business.

If you think that the government should maintain roads, and make sure your food doesn't have botulism, and to make sure your workplace has smoke detectors, and your doctor actually went to medical school, then you are not Libertarian, you just disagree with some subset of regulations we currently have. That's okay, we can discuss these sorts of things and debate their costs and benefits. You are not disagreeing with the role of government at that point, you are disagreeing with the implementation of it.
 
2014-08-25 01:02:53 PM  
Government bad.
 
2014-08-25 01:05:24 PM  
Ironically, I fully expect that this thread will consist of at least a dozen "Libertarians", each with a different definition of what Libertarianism actually is.
 
2014-08-25 01:06:02 PM  

James!: Government bad.



imageserver.moviepilot.com
 
2014-08-25 01:10:36 PM  

LordZorch: Mainly it's progtards that can't figure it out, but fundietards are also confused, but it's actually quite simple:

1) Stop trying to enforce your morality onto others via law/regulation

2) Somalia is anarchy, not a "Libertarian Paradise" - people that can't tell the difference are generally indoctrinated fools.

3) Your close relationships with Wall Street and the Unions is in dire need of a divorce

4) Government in general is a problem.  The less of it you can get by with, the better.


LOL. Thanks for proving the article's point. Libertarian 101 all the way!!! Simplistic answers only!
 
2014-08-25 01:33:56 PM  
OK, so I read the entire article, and it sounds like the people who say that are libertarians have generally libertarian views, even if those views might not be 100% Libertarian.

Notice my capitalization.  A small "l" libertarian is likely to have a much less Procrustean view on things like government regulation than a capital "L" Libertarian.

And in the end, if you're not a complete Anarchist or a complete Totalitarian, you're some kind of libertarian.  The only argument is precisely where the line is drawn.
 
2014-08-25 01:34:22 PM  
Not surprising. Within any large self-described group there's going to be a range of opinions and positions. The definition is merely a Platonic "ideal type."
 
2014-08-25 01:35:04 PM  

gilgigamesh: Ironically, I fully expect that this thread will consist of at least a dozen "Libertarians", each with a different definition of what Libertarianism actually is.


What about the libertarians?
 
2014-08-25 01:38:30 PM  
I am a Klezmertarian. Our philosophy is "FARK YOU, L'CHAIM" and then we play really annoying clarinet to an oompa beat. People think it's really awesome and out there for about half a song before they are ready for anything else.

*turtle looks up from water glass*
It's a living.
 
2014-08-25 01:39:42 PM  

LordZorch: Somalia is anarchy, not a "Libertarian Paradise" - people that can't tell the difference are generally indoctrinated fools.


Perhaps those who equating them are using the term "Libertarian Paradise" ironically? The underlying Hobbesian point being that as government decreases there is an inherent increase in the Law of the Jungle. Thus what seems like a "paradise" (realization of a utopian ideal) turns out to be a very dystopian existence where life tends to nasty, brutish and short for most people. Thus the ironic use of the term.
 
2014-08-25 01:39:51 PM  

dittybopper: OK, so I read the entire article, and it sounds like the people who say that are libertarians have generally libertarian views, even if those views might not be 100% Libertarian.

Notice my capitalization.  A small "l" libertarian is likely to have a much less Procrustean view on things like government regulation than a capital "L" Libertarian.

And in the end, if you're not a complete Anarchist or a complete Totalitarian, you're some kind of libertarian.  The only argument is precisely where the line is drawn.


But isn't libertarianism a product of philosophy? You know, that think you called a "quasi-religion that never produced anything useful?"
 
2014-08-25 01:43:17 PM  

grumpfuff: dittybopper: OK, so I read the entire article, and it sounds like the people who say that are libertarians have generally libertarian views, even if those views might not be 100% Libertarian.

Notice my capitalization.  A small "l" libertarian is likely to have a much less Procrustean view on things like government regulation than a capital "L" Libertarian.

And in the end, if you're not a complete Anarchist or a complete Totalitarian, you're some kind of libertarian.  The only argument is precisely where the line is drawn.

But isn't libertarianism a product of philosophy? You know, that think you called a "quasi-religion that never produced anything useful?"


Yep.

Actually, I believe I said it was mental masturbation that never produced anything practical.  And like all political philosophies, [L,l]ibertarianism is precisely that, along with all the others.

It's not like medicine, science, engineering, etc.
 
2014-08-25 01:43:44 PM  
"a greater share of self-described libertarians (43%) than the public (35%) think 'it is best for the future of our country to be active in world affairs.'"

That farking hilarious.
 
2014-08-25 01:44:21 PM  
^add an 's or an is up there please.
 
2014-08-25 01:45:22 PM  

SockMonkeyHolocaust: I am a Klezmertarian. Our philosophy is "FARK YOU, L'CHAIM" and then we play really annoying clarinet to an oompa beat. People think it's really awesome and out there for about half a song before they are ready for anything else.

*turtle looks up from water glass*
It's a living.


I'm still working on my Blues-Klezmer-Symphony for the massed Great Highland Pipes, Didgeridoos, and electric Jaw Harp.

/Excuse me while I go work on the "Second Movement".
 
2014-08-25 01:46:21 PM  

ginandbacon: "a greater share of self-described libertarians (43%) than the public (35%) think 'it is best for the future of our country to be active in world affairs.'"

That farking hilarious.


Yeah, that is funny, isn't it?  "Heh, I think we need less government here, but I'm OK with spreading it around the World a bit".
 
2014-08-25 01:47:00 PM  

dittybopper: grumpfuff: dittybopper: OK, so I read the entire article, and it sounds like the people who say that are libertarians have generally libertarian views, even if those views might not be 100% Libertarian.

Notice my capitalization.  A small "l" libertarian is likely to have a much less Procrustean view on things like government regulation than a capital "L" Libertarian.

And in the end, if you're not a complete Anarchist or a complete Totalitarian, you're some kind of libertarian.  The only argument is precisely where the line is drawn.

But isn't libertarianism a product of philosophy? You know, that think you called a "quasi-religion that never produced anything useful?"

Yep.

Actually, I believe I said it was mental masturbation that never produced anything practical.  And like all political philosophies, [L,l]ibertarianism is precisely that, along with all the others.

It's not like medicine, science, engineering, etc.


You are just a never-ending source of amusement.

/TIL you can build a skyscraper without a foundation
 
2014-08-25 01:47:28 PM  
i.imgur.com

Obligatory :-)

/thinks its an oversimplification
 
2014-08-25 01:53:11 PM  
libertarianism is actually a mild form autism, the rise in diagnosed cases account for the public support mentioned.
 
2014-08-25 02:02:54 PM  

cryinoutloud: Libertarianism is the latest club you want to be in, because you're too good and unique for all those other clubs. You go, girls.


Reported.
 
2014-08-25 02:15:16 PM  
Perfect use of the obvious tag
 
2014-08-25 02:19:15 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2014-08-25 02:21:23 PM  
Currently, Libertarianism is a label a fascist runs under because the GOP won't even embrace his crazy views.

It used to mean something completely different.
 
2014-08-25 02:22:09 PM  
Could one say that all "isms" must balance a pure ideal form with what is practical in the context of the limits of human nature and the external political realities of the world in which we currently live?

/or maybe saying such a thing would generate the quote about it being better to remain silent and only be  thought a fool ;p
 
2014-08-25 02:22:13 PM  

Jackson Herring: [i.imgur.com image 285x161]


Basically government is bad unluess it is enforcing the will of pasty white farkwits.
 
2014-08-25 02:22:35 PM  
Libertarian = YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME! I shouldn't have to pay for anything I don't want to! Don't regulate me brah! Let the churches take care of everything!

nevermind that I listen to NPR, watch PBS, enjoy clean air and water, benefit from the ACLU, etc. ... and never drop a dime to any kind of charity or non-profit

\true story
 
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